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On March 10 2015 04:09 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:16 Salteador Neo wrote:
Mou at RM won 1 liga 1 copa in three years, while Ancelotti got la Décima in his first year... which alone is already bigger than all of Moudrid's trophies together. But Ancelotti is going to last less than Mourinho? Mourinho 3 seasons? Ancelotti 2 I know the prestigious 10th champions league was a huge thing for Real, but the league title dethroning Barca was pretty huge. Just like Atletico league win last year was huge dethroning both Barca and Real dominance.
I think Mou is overrated at this point. As are guys like Pep or Simeone.
Its funny 10 years ago no one gave a crap about coaches, they seemed to do nothing besides making a starting 11 and do some subs but today everything the teams do is some brilliant great plan.
Dont get me wrong i think coaches can win or lose games and i think the chessmatch between them is one of the most interesting things in all of football but beeing good at general strategy and ingame coaching is not that unique.
What seperates the absolute top tier (Pep, Mou...) from "very good but not stars" (Löw or someone like Mancini) ist the same thing that seperates Messi and Ronaldo from the other very good players: Beeing at the right place at the right time with the right people and that little bit of luck.
There is a reason every team coached by Mou had a down year after he left. And its not because the guy after him was so much worse it was because Mourinho is the best in the busines at figuring out teams that are about to hit their peak (Inter for example) and win with them.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Well football is mental game too, a managers job is to motivate his team as well as teach them his style. It is clear as people have posted that Ancelotti is a shite manager at getting his team motivated for the lesser games. Every team he manages at he loses points in games they should not, but his big game management isn't that bad.
It's an interesting one anyway, seeing what x manager would do at y club. Aka if Pep managed Real or if Mourinho managed Barca. Ancelotti at Bayern etc.
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With how much complaining there is about officiating, I think it's appropriate that we take some time to appreciate good officiating. Michael Oliver had an outstanding match today at Old Trafford.
Edit: FA Cup semifinal draw:
Bradford City/Reading vs Arsenal
Aston Villa vs Liverpool/Blackburn Rovers
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after watching that game, all i could say was HOW IN THE FUCK DID MANU NOT BUY ANY DEFENDERS DURING THE TRANSFER PERIOD. jesus that back was so fucking terrible.
btw does anyone think that real turned down buying pogba for 50 mil (1.5 years ago) is true (from pogba's agent) and do you think that would have been too much for him?
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LVG probably didn't want to bust the 200m mark on his first season for transfers. and they hare pretty competative for champions league spots already.
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Leo travelled to london again with anto to hang out with cesc and his wife.
*messi to chelsea confirmed* xD
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On March 10 2015 07:08 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:09 Pandemona wrote:On March 10 2015 03:16 Salteador Neo wrote:
Mou at RM won 1 liga 1 copa in three years, while Ancelotti got la Décima in his first year... which alone is already bigger than all of Moudrid's trophies together. But Ancelotti is going to last less than Mourinho? Mourinho 3 seasons? Ancelotti 2 I know the prestigious 10th champions league was a huge thing for Real, but the league title dethroning Barca was pretty huge. Just like Atletico league win last year was huge dethroning both Barca and Real dominance. I think Mou is overrated at this point. As are guys like Pep or Simeone. Its funny 10 years ago no one gave a crap about coaches, they seemed to do nothing besides making a starting 11 and do some subs but today everything the teams do is some brilliant great plan. Dont get me wrong i think coaches can win or lose games and i think the chessmatch between them is one of the most interesting things in all of football but beeing good at general strategy and ingame coaching is not that unique. What seperates the absolute top tier (Pep, Mou...) from "very good but not stars" (Löw or someone like Mancini) ist the same thing that seperates Messi and Ronaldo from the other very good players: Beeing at the right place at the right time with the right people and that little bit of luck. There is a reason every team coached by Mou had a down year after he left. And its not because the guy after him was so much worse it was because Mourinho is the best in the busines at figuring out teams that are about to hit their peak (Inter for example) and win with them.
I disagree that inter was a team that was about to hit its Peak. He took a bunch of unwanteds. Sneider, Etoo, Milito et al and won a treble with them.
He turned that team into what it was. It wasnt luck, it wasnt because of a skill in identifying a team peaking. He went and did it and brought out the level of play.
Same with Guardiola's first stint at Barca. He took half that squad from La Masia to 6 trophies in year. Simeone again a similar effect.
I think preparing a team. ingame coaching and general strategy while not a unique skill has a significant curve and the curve is extremely steep after a certain point. Actually doing it is quite different and the nuances that go along with it are so crazy you cant even begin to imagine how hard it is. Its also an extremely lonely role.
The reason it can be easy to fall into the trap that its not a unique skill is because armchair managing is easy and making suggestions in hindsight even easier.
Secondly most of these guys get jobs with powerful teams to work with + Show Spoiler +(and they earn it, theres a reason very few managers make it to that level and all the rest bounce around. Its not because of their ability to be superior tactically on the day.)
Its also the reason the same pool of guys cycle through the top roles and win more trophies and sure luck may be a part of it everyone has to get some luck to win but they win because they are better at their job then everyone else.
They win because they are superior at affecting the general things that dont seem unique.
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Glad Arsenal beat united, shame I couldn't see the game. Would rather have had this game on Sunday.
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Norway28743 Posts
I think the fact that mourinho's real run is considered a failure is a testament to his, and real madrid's, greatness. He won the league - defeating what was in the previous season, by some, regarded as the best team through all time. champions league, got semi final every time. frankly, the difference between semi final and runner up/winner, while not just "luck", is so dependent on coincidence that falling out in the semis cannot be regarded as a failure, for any team. (Also showcased by Ancelotti's win - the final was incredibly close to a loss rather than a 4-1 victory.. )
The fact is that he had a pretty average run for the best club through history, but one which was the second best team in spain when he came and the best team in spain when he left, and it was the by far worst managerial job of his career.. No other manager would have a similar real stint be considered a big failure.
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On March 10 2015 20:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think the fact that mourinho's real run is considered a failure is a testament to his, and real madrid's, greatness. He won the league - defeating what was in the previous season, by some, regarded as the best team through all time. champions league, got semi final every time. frankly, the difference between semi final and runner up/winner, while not just "luck", is so dependent on coincidence that falling out in the semis cannot be regarded as a failure, for any team. (Also showcased by Ancelotti's win - the final was incredibly close to a loss rather than a 4-1 victory.. )
The fact is that he had a pretty average run for the best club through history, but one which was the second best team in spain when he came and the best team in spain when he left, and it was the by far worst managerial job of his career.. No other manager would have a similar real stint be considered a big failure.
Hahaha.
No.
User was warned for this post
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On March 10 2015 20:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think the fact that mourinho's real run is considered a failure is a testament to his, and real madrid's, greatness. He won the league - defeating what was in the previous season, by some, regarded as the best team through all time. champions league, got semi final every time. frankly, the difference between semi final and runner up/winner, while not just "luck", is so dependent on coincidence that falling out in the semis cannot be regarded as a failure, for any team. (Also showcased by Ancelotti's win - the final was incredibly close to a loss rather than a 4-1 victory.. )
The fact is that he had a pretty average run for the best club through history, but one which was the second best team in spain when he came and the best team in spain when he left, and it was the by far worst managerial job of his career.. No other manager would have a similar real stint be considered a big failure.
Well wrong. Mou left in disgrace, losing the league massively to Barca during his last season.
Winning ONE league out of three, WHILE spending more is a failiure for RM. That is a fact.
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Real won 6 in the 20 La Liga seasons prior to Mourinho's arrival. Mourinho won 1/3, against Messi's/Guardiolas Barcelona. That's just above average for a Real Madrid manager.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 10 2015 20:52 themartinez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 20:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think the fact that mourinho's real run is considered a failure is a testament to his, and real madrid's, greatness. He won the league - defeating what was in the previous season, by some, regarded as the best team through all time. champions league, got semi final every time. frankly, the difference between semi final and runner up/winner, while not just "luck", is so dependent on coincidence that falling out in the semis cannot be regarded as a failure, for any team. (Also showcased by Ancelotti's win - the final was incredibly close to a loss rather than a 4-1 victory.. )
The fact is that he had a pretty average run for the best club through history, but one which was the second best team in spain when he came and the best team in spain when he left, and it was the by far worst managerial job of his career.. No other manager would have a similar real stint be considered a big failure. Well wrong. Mou left in disgrace, losing the league massively to Barca during his last season. Winning ONE league out of three, WHILE spending more is a failiure for RM. That is a fact.
Happy Birthday!
Whilst you are correct that is a failure 1 out of 3 for Real Madrid you just have to look back on their "success" before he came in. They won the league in 2008 before the Barca dominance. They had not won the Copa Del Rey since 1992 before he came in and won it first season. So remember they were not doing well or winning much before Mourinho came in and moved Barca off top spot, yes it was only once but like Drone said that Barcelona team was dubbed "the greatest team of all time" let alone a good team.
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Norway28743 Posts
yeah ok barca won the 12/13 season so convincingly that I guess I can't claim that they were the best when he left, so I retract that sentence. ;p
but the clasicos went from being dominated in his first season to losing only one of the last 10? I just don't see how he was a fiasco or how his stay at real was humiliating or whatever. Every manager is gonna experience humiliating losses at some point, regardless of how great they are, football is a volatile sport with enormous variance. he got second-first-second in the league while competing against the greatest barcelona team we've seen (a team I have stated in the past was so dominant and great that I thought watching them play was boring). Three champions league semi finals in three years, that is success with bad luck, nothing poor about it.
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That is the issue with football, and more so with RM. If the disgusting Perez does not like you, he will kick you out, just like what he did with Vincente del Bosque. Perez is the embodiment of disgrace imho.
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On March 10 2015 21:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
yeah ok barca won the 12/13 season so convincingly that I guess I can't claim that they were the best when he left, so I retract that sentence. ;p
but the clasicos went from being dominated in his first season to losing only one of the last 10? I just don't see how he was a fiasco or how his stay at real was humiliating or whatever. Every manager is gonna experience humiliating losses at some point, regardless of how great they are, football is a volatile sport with enormous variance. he got second-first-second in the league while competing against the greatest barcelona team we've seen (a team I have stated in the past was so dominant and great that I thought watching them play was boring). Three champions league semi finals in three years, that is success with bad luck, nothing poor about it.
First of all, you are clearly not in touch with any rm fans. I know plenty from my barca forum and they aren't happy one bit about the way mou managed to not get trashed during the 2nd half of his stay in madrid.
Here's what happened.
1.Mou beats barca with inter employing some ridiculous antifootball, being lucky and hugely favored by the referees in both games.
2.He goes to rm and he obviously thought "hah, finally, I don't have to play like a crab against barca, I have phenomenal players and I'll beat them with some proper football this time round".
3.He gets absolutely ridiculed.
4.He goes back to his antifootball ways, he even resorted in playing pepe as a holding midfielder in clasicos.
5.He managed to scrape some wins and not lose that much that way.
6.This is not a fact but my own opinion, but I strongly believe that this is the reason he never won the cl, and never would have even if he stayed there for 20 years. Instead of managing his team to play his kind of proper football and occasionally being toyed around by barca, he chose to feed his ego and coached rm in ways unbefitting for the stature and tradition of the club.
Majority of rm fans don't like him and it has nothing to do with winning the cl or not.
You call that a success?
Also if he was as pragmatic and realist as his fanboys claim, he would've played antifootball from the start of his career there.
But having all those superstars got into his mind and he paid for that. Mby he's not a tactical mastermind after all ey?
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Does anyone know why world cup stuff from bbc, itv, espn or german tv is all left up on youtube with super nice hd quality while for champions league the best you can find most of the time is some shitty 480p with arabic commentary? Is it because of UEFA vs FIFA licenses?
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 10 2015 21:35 Steveling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 21:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
yeah ok barca won the 12/13 season so convincingly that I guess I can't claim that they were the best when he left, so I retract that sentence. ;p
but the clasicos went from being dominated in his first season to losing only one of the last 10? I just don't see how he was a fiasco or how his stay at real was humiliating or whatever. Every manager is gonna experience humiliating losses at some point, regardless of how great they are, football is a volatile sport with enormous variance. he got second-first-second in the league while competing against the greatest barcelona team we've seen (a team I have stated in the past was so dominant and great that I thought watching them play was boring). Three champions league semi finals in three years, that is success with bad luck, nothing poor about it.
First of all, you are clearly not in touch with any rm fans. I know plenty from my barca forum and they aren't happy one bit about the way mou managed to not get trashed during the 2nd half of his stay in madrid.
Well according to Guillem Ballague guy there was a fairly big chunk of Real fans that "loved him" which you can also see when he runs over to them last game of the seasons and receives and standing ovation from them. So due to how big Real Madrid fan base is i don't think your ever going to please 100% of those fans. He was liked and disliked there.
Karanka article
Now that article is probably bias due to him working with Mourinho before he got a job. However much of the "hate" of Mourinho stems from the Media in Spain literally hating him, with that he hardly went to any press conference and sent Karanka instead.
As he walked away from the Bernabéu pitch for the last time, the outgoing Real Madrid manager Jose Mourinho waved a pointed goodbye to the gang of ultras gathered behind one goal, who had been singing his name throughout the game.
Source
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On March 10 2015 22:23 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 21:35 Steveling wrote:On March 10 2015 21:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
yeah ok barca won the 12/13 season so convincingly that I guess I can't claim that they were the best when he left, so I retract that sentence. ;p
but the clasicos went from being dominated in his first season to losing only one of the last 10? I just don't see how he was a fiasco or how his stay at real was humiliating or whatever. Every manager is gonna experience humiliating losses at some point, regardless of how great they are, football is a volatile sport with enormous variance. he got second-first-second in the league while competing against the greatest barcelona team we've seen (a team I have stated in the past was so dominant and great that I thought watching them play was boring). Three champions league semi finals in three years, that is success with bad luck, nothing poor about it.
First of all, you are clearly not in touch with any rm fans. I know plenty from my barca forum and they aren't happy one bit about the way mou managed to not get trashed during the 2nd half of his stay in madrid. Well according to Guillem Ballague guy there was a fairly big chunk of Real fans that "loved him" which you can also see when he runs over to them last game of the seasons and receives and standing ovation from them. So due to how big Real Madrid fan base is i don't think your ever going to please 100% of those fans. He was liked and disliked there. Karanka articleNow that article is probably bias due to him working with Mourinho before he got a job. However much of the "hate" of Mourinho stems from the Media in Spain literally hating him, with that he hardly went to any press conference and sent Karanka instead. Show nested quote +As he walked away from the Bernabéu pitch for the last time, the outgoing Real Madrid manager Jose Mourinho waved a pointed goodbye to the gang of ultras gathered behind one goal, who had been singing his name throughout the game. Source
being praised by the ultra sur is like the worst thing possible :D bunch of neo-nazis more interested in politics than in football.
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On March 10 2015 22:23 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 21:35 Steveling wrote:On March 10 2015 21:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
yeah ok barca won the 12/13 season so convincingly that I guess I can't claim that they were the best when he left, so I retract that sentence. ;p
but the clasicos went from being dominated in his first season to losing only one of the last 10? I just don't see how he was a fiasco or how his stay at real was humiliating or whatever. Every manager is gonna experience humiliating losses at some point, regardless of how great they are, football is a volatile sport with enormous variance. he got second-first-second in the league while competing against the greatest barcelona team we've seen (a team I have stated in the past was so dominant and great that I thought watching them play was boring). Three champions league semi finals in three years, that is success with bad luck, nothing poor about it.
First of all, you are clearly not in touch with any rm fans. I know plenty from my barca forum and they aren't happy one bit about the way mou managed to not get trashed during the 2nd half of his stay in madrid. Well according to Guillem Ballague guy there was a fairly big chunk of Real fans that "loved him" which you can also see when he runs over to them last game of the seasons and receives and standing ovation from them. So due to how big Real Madrid fan base is i don't think your ever going to please 100% of those fans. He was liked and disliked there. Karanka articleNow that article is probably bias due to him working with Mourinho before he got a job. However much of the "hate" of Mourinho stems from the Media in Spain literally hating him, with that he hardly went to any press conference and sent Karanka instead. Show nested quote +As he walked away from the Bernabéu pitch for the last time, the outgoing Real Madrid manager Jose Mourinho waved a pointed goodbye to the gang of ultras gathered behind one goal, who had been singing his name throughout the game. Source
Guillem Ballague is clueless and hardly a la liga expert as you call him in england.
Ask haitike.
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EPT
