|
|
Yeah I am not a fan of 3 on 3 at all. IMO it's way more dumb and gimmicky than 4v4 or the SO. tbh, I hated the shootout at first like most people. But having seen more than a few in person, it's actually fun as hell. I still would prefer ties I think, but I've definitely come around a bit on it.
I am a fan of making fun of the Leafs though!
Speaking of, who (if anyone) moves from there? Does Shanny have the nads to ship out Kessel or Phaneuf?
I don't think it really makes sense to move Kessel imo, since he's still on the right side of 30 and there's no way you get fair value for a top 5 scorer. Phaneuf is fine if used right (basically the complete opposite of how Toronto did). I just don't think he's really a $7m defensemen, and he's 30. I think the Leafs need at least 2 years of retooling to get back into things and it would make a lot more sense to move him if possible.
His contract kind of blows for other teams but I think he's still one of hte better defensemen in the league. He's just not suited to be a shut down guy like the Leafs tried.
also I just noticed now reading the award winners, but Hedman didn't get a single Norris vote. The fuck. That's insane when you look at the people who did get votes, even third.
|
Well, I see. It makes perfect sense and the game probably changed for the better. although it was always great to see someone topping the 100pt mark.
Thank you very much for your answers!
|
They're probably moving Phaneuf. Kessel is pretty good, though overpaid. Phaneuf is overpaid and not good enough to be a first pair player. They are also low on the cap right now (I think 1 mill above the floor) and moving $7/year will free up a lot of room. What teams would want to trade for him, anyway? They'd want to pick up younger talent for him, but what team wants an older, 2nd pair defenseman?
Also, KobraKay, does anyone else watch hockey in Portugal? I can't imagine it's too popular there.
EDIT: I think one thing that might help Toronto a lot that no one talks about is redoing their coaching. They historically have had good players come over and absolutely blow the joint. I think their lower prominence coaches(goalie coach, etc.) may be terrible.
|
Other than Tuukka Rask, we haven't really drafted well when it comes to goaltenders and what do you know they get shipped out.
The problem with the Leafs is their drafting, evaluating their own prospects, developing prospects, shitty culture, lack of identity and shitty ownership/management.
People place far too much focus on the coaching staff and sure eventually when you tell your club the same bloody thing time in and out you lose them. That is partially due to the coaching staff. It also falls back on the players as well. The Leafs were built to be a run and gun team for many years now and you had them trying to play a style they just won't be productive in. They had plenty of decent coaches who have had success in the league.
There are way more problems and it starts right at the top. You have the two biggest media conglomerates owning the richest franchise in the game. The focus is making money on the team; not so much as winning just like when the Teacher's Pension Plan had a majority ownership.
The franchise is so backwards and the likelihood of them winning a Cup anytime soon is just as likely as any of the Canadian teams. Which isn't very good. Sorry Montreal, you guys might rack up the points and have Price but your team still has a very long way to go.
|
Kessel is 8th for most points scored in the last 5 years. How's he overpaid? You don't have to be a Datsyuk in your own end when you score like that. I mean it would be nice and all but that's worth $8m.
I think Phaneuf might still be a top pairing, 40 point+ dman if he plays his side, has a good reliable partner to let him roam, and the coach feeds him offensive zone starts. He's not a two way machine. He's got skills offensively, and is ok in his own end. Just play to his skills and don't start him in his own end 60% of the time like Toronto. It's just about goodp layer utlizaton, just like how it would be dumb to bury Karlsson in his own end and feed Methot all of the offensive starts.
But yea, even if he's ok as a top 2 or 4 dman for the next couple of years he still has a hard contract to swallow, even for teams with space. $7m for 5 more years for a guy who will be 31 this coming season.
|
On June 26 2015 06:12 StarStruck wrote:
Other than Tuukka Rask, we haven't really drafted well when it comes to goaltenders and what do you know they get shipped out.
The problem with the Leafs is their drafting, evaluating their own prospects, developing prospects, shitty culture, lack of identity and shitty ownership/management.
People place far too much focus on the coaching staff and sure eventually when you tell your club the same bloody thing time in and out you lose them. That is partially due to the coaching staff. It also falls back on the players as well. The Leafs were built to be a run and gun team for many years now and you had them trying to play a style they just won't be productive in. They had plenty of decent coaches who have had success in the league.
There are way more problems and it starts right at the top. You have the two biggest media conglomerates owning the richest franchise in the game. The focus is making money on the team; not so much as winning just like when the Teacher's Pension Plan had a majority ownership.
The franchise is so backwards and the likelihood of them winning a Cup anytime soon is just as likely as any of the Canadian teams. Which isn't very good. Sorry Montreal, you guys might rack up the points and have Price but your team still has a very long way to go.
You make a very good point. I know literally almost nothing behind the scenes, so I just guessed there might be a coaching problem. Blaming it on the ownership is probably a better choice to make.
On June 26 2015 11:23 QuanticHawk wrote:
Kessel is 8th for most points scored in the last 5 years. How's he overpaid? You don't have to be a Datsyuk in your own end when you score like that. I mean it would be nice and all but that's worth $8m.
I think Phaneuf might still be a top pairing, 40 point+ dman if he plays his side, has a good reliable partner to let him roam, and the coach feeds him offensive zone starts. He's not a two way machine. He's got skills offensively, and is ok in his own end. Just play to his skills and don't start him in his own end 60% of the time like Toronto. It's just about goodp layer utlizaton, just like how it would be dumb to bury Karlsson in his own end and feed Methot all of the offensive starts.
But yea, even if he's ok as a top 2 or 4 dman for the next couple of years he still has a hard contract to swallow, even for teams with space. $7m for 5 more years for a guy who will be 31 this coming season.
His points are slightly inflated by his being the offensive carry for the Leafs for the last few years. He's undoubtedly a great offensive player, but shopping around you could probably get some better worth for $8m. Looking at the people in his price range you find a fair number of better players for around the same price. However, there are some worse players for about the same price, so he's not highly overpaid.
I agree with you entirely for Phaneuf.
Also, side note: the Coyotes have $18m to hit the salary floor. They have more cap space than they are currently paying in salaries.
|
On June 26 2015 11:23 QuanticHawk wrote:
Kessel is 8th for most points scored in the last 5 years. How's he overpaid? You don't have to be a Datsyuk in your own end when you score like that. I mean it would be nice and all but that's worth $8m.
I think Phaneuf might still be a top pairing, 40 point+ dman if he plays his side, has a good reliable partner to let him roam, and the coach feeds him offensive zone starts. He's not a two way machine. He's got skills offensively, and is ok in his own end. Just play to his skills and don't start him in his own end 60% of the time like Toronto. It's just about goodp layer utlizaton, just like how it would be dumb to bury Karlsson in his own end and feed Methot all of the offensive starts.
But yea, even if he's ok as a top 2 or 4 dman for the next couple of years he still has a hard contract to swallow, even for teams with space. $7m for 5 more years for a guy who will be 31 this coming season.
You don't have to be a a Datsyuk style player to be worth that money I agree. However, this year Kessel only had 25 goals and was a -34 on the ice. That is pathetic for 8 million. He has had some good years in the past, but with the kind of shape he keeps himself in unless something drastic changes I don't think he will hit that form again in his career. Way too much of a liability on the ice. Maybe it was just a one year thing and he will bounce back? Still though 8 million is just too much.
Stamkos - 8 Million
Patrick Kane - 6.5 Million
Jonathon Toews - 6.5 million
John Tavares - 5 Million
Kessel is nowhere near being the caliber of player to come close to those guys. Granted Tavares is going to get a huggee pay increase his next contract but still. Kessel shouldn't even be considered in the same tax bracket as these guys.
Full disclosure I am a Montreal fan so I am obviously biased in not liking Leaf players, but I don't think its just my bias that makes me think Kessel is nowhere near worth that amount of money.
|
On June 26 2015 12:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 11:23 QuanticHawk wrote:
Kessel is 8th for most points scored in the last 5 years. How's he overpaid? You don't have to be a Datsyuk in your own end when you score like that. I mean it would be nice and all but that's worth $8m.
I think Phaneuf might still be a top pairing, 40 point+ dman if he plays his side, has a good reliable partner to let him roam, and the coach feeds him offensive zone starts. He's not a two way machine. He's got skills offensively, and is ok in his own end. Just play to his skills and don't start him in his own end 60% of the time like Toronto. It's just about goodp layer utlizaton, just like how it would be dumb to bury Karlsson in his own end and feed Methot all of the offensive starts.
But yea, even if he's ok as a top 2 or 4 dman for the next couple of years he still has a hard contract to swallow, even for teams with space. $7m for 5 more years for a guy who will be 31 this coming season. You don't have to be a a Datsyuk style player to be worth that money I agree. However, this year Kessel only had 25 goals and was a -34 on the ice. That is pathetic for 8 million. He has had some good years in the past, but with the kind of shape he keeps himself in unless something drastic changes I don't think he will hit that form again in his career. Way too much of a liability on the ice. Maybe it was just a one year thing and he will bounce back? Still though 8 million is just too much. Stamkos - 8 Million Patrick Kane - 6.5 Million Jonathon Toews - 6.5 million John Tavares - 5 Million Kessel is nowhere near being the caliber of player to come close to those guys. Granted Tavares is going to get a huggee pay increase his next contract but still. Kessel shouldn't even be considered in the same tax bracket as these guys. Full disclosure I am a Montreal fan so I am obviously biased in not liking Leaf players, but I don't think its just my bias that makes me think Kessel is nowhere near worth that amount of money.
The site I'm reading has Toews at $13.8m with Kane, Stamkos at $5.5m and Tavares at $6m if we go by salary(the numbers change if looking at cap hit). You can look through that list to find some players I would 100% prefer over Kessel. However, there are a few that he is more worthwhile than, so he's not entirely out of place up there.
|
yeah Toews and Kane are $10.5 now since they new contracts kicked in. Also Tavares was a RFA when he signed so it's not an apt comparison (and I'm with you that Tavares is better. He's probably #3 or 4 forward in the league as far as I am concerned). Contract comparison gets tricky when you're comparing players who signed a few years apart, and ufa vs rfa. Cap hit is the number you should be looking at. Also by pure points (which is a fair comparison for Kane, Stamkos, and probably Tavares since they're all scorers) Kessel is entirely in their level. http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-5-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html
as far as his point totals, I can see why this past year would raise alarms. However, the Leafs were a bottom 5 team this year without question. They bled shots regularly and had crap offensive depth. Kessel's line was pretty much guaranteed to get the top defensive pairing because the team didn't have anyone worthwhile regularly playing on the 2nd besides Kadri. While he's good, Kadri can't carry a line by himself. On most teams, if you stripped down the 2nd line to the levle that the Leafs fielded, the studs would have more trouble scoring with all the extra attention their line would get. I think there are very few players who would hit a PPG being on such a bad team with no 2nd line to draw the best defenders away every now and then. Most players aren't gods like Bure (giving me an excuse to post this wonderful season stat sheet http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/FLA/2001.html)
I also don't think it helps that Kessel, Bozak, and JVR are all pretty subpar in their own end individually.
|
That's the thing about Kessel though. If you're picking him up you're looking for him to add to your scoring prowess and nothing more really. Screw the +/-. They already got rid of our better +/- guys at the trade deadline and he's a sniper for crying out loud. Last season was his worst and he still put up 25. I doubt we'll see him doing lower than that this upcoming season. Pittsburgh for whatever reason is showing a lot of interest in the guy and Rutherford is already close to the cap so I'm really interested what they're trying to offer the Leafs in return considering they have a few players I'd call untouchable.
As for Bozak. He's actually one of the easier guys to move. The guy takes a lot of face-offs for a reason.
|
On June 26 2015 05:44 WarSame wrote:
Also, KobraKay, does anyone else watch hockey in Portugal? I can't imagine it's too popular there.
Well I'm not alone  but yeah there are not many people that watch hockey (as in ice hockey) in Portugal.
We are pretty big in this, as you can see from the rest of the site of this year's world cup we are facing argentina next and if all goes well, fight for a win in the finals. I played it myself  but regarding the NHL and anything ice related people dont know/like and the general comment if you ask someone about ice hockey is something along the lines of "that's no sport...they just fight and hit each other". That is in part due to the fact that sometimes sports newspapers have a few clips of action around the world and the only time we get an NHL clip is when a big fight or injury happens.
It is pretty hard to get coverage besides that...we used to have ESPN America in the standard pay channel list that was our fix for everything related to american sports (NHL, NBA, AHL even sometimes, NFL, MLB, etc) but since last year the channel stopped transmitting in Portugal. Right now we have the main Portuguese sports channel (paid in separate from the regular pay channels' list, and expensive) that has a few games a month. The few NHL games that I would be able to watch are not worth the channel's price...plus having to put up with the live cast of the game in Portuguese T_T it is a bad mix of trying to teach the rules and trying to sound hyped for the game that annoys everybody.
International tournaments are on Eurosport so we can watch that (although with the same Portuguese commentator T_T). Davos Cup for instance is on Eurosport every year I think.
So yeah, some people follow the NBA (mostly people that actually play/played basketball) and a few of my work mates watch the NFL (some of them buy tickets to London to go watch the premiers) but there is no NHL following in Portugal as far as I'm aware and it has always seem weird to me how is that channel still having NHL games despite that. Maybe there are more people that like the game than I know of
|
|
|
On June 26 2015 21:15 StarStruck wrote:
That's the thing about Kessel though. If you're picking him up you're looking for him to add to your scoring prowess and nothing more really. Screw the +/-. They already got rid of our better +/- guys at the trade deadline and he's a sniper for crying out loud. Last season was his worst and he still put up 25. I doubt we'll see him doing lower than that this upcoming season. Pittsburgh for whatever reason is showing a lot of interest in the guy and Rutherford is already close to the cap so I'm really interested what they're trying to offer the Leafs in return considering they have a few players I'd call untouchable.
As for Bozak. He's actually one of the easier guys to move. The guy takes a lot of face-offs for a reason.
Yeah I have no idea why Pitt wants him. Their issue is that their forward depth is fucking awful and they're not exactly full of cap room. That bottom six killed them all season. Adding Kessel just to bump down Kunitz or Dupuis seems like a really inefficinet way of dealing with that issue. Then again, Rutherford is the boner who traded a good defensive prospect for Ben Fucking Lovejoy, sooooo
But yeah, definitely agree about Kessel. He's there because he's a top 5 scorer in the world, that's it. The issue is that everyone on his line is also not particularly good in their own end either, the defense behind him sucks, and the system they ran prior to canning Carlyle just totally magnified all of those definencies.
Bozak should draw interest because he's at least a 3C, maybe a 2C on the right team. He's pretty clearly carried on the first by JVR and Kessel but he's a 40 or so point guy who is fairly good on draws. 3 years @ $4.2 isn't bad, but he is 31.
|
Considering Rutherford is looking at him. If anything were to happen I wonder who's line they'd put him on. I'm well aware of his flaws and what he is. The fact of the matter is the guy still puts it in the net -- I remember when he would always try to go outside to inside- it would drive me nuts. The scary thing is Kessel has all the tools to be better in that he has raw talent. You just have to get through that thick skull of his. Him with Malkin or Sidney sounds kind of ridiculous. The Penguins do want to shake things up a lot this year. Their core isn't getting any younger with guys like Kunitz and Dupuis. The Penguins will be busy this off season.
On June 26 2015 23:20 QuanticHawk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 21:15 StarStruck wrote:
That's the thing about Kessel though. If you're picking him up you're looking for him to add to your scoring prowess and nothing more really. Screw the +/-. They already got rid of our better +/- guys at the trade deadline and he's a sniper for crying out loud. Last season was his worst and he still put up 25. I doubt we'll see him doing lower than that this upcoming season. Pittsburgh for whatever reason is showing a lot of interest in the guy and Rutherford is already close to the cap so I'm really interested what they're trying to offer the Leafs in return considering they have a few players I'd call untouchable.
As for Bozak. He's actually one of the easier guys to move. The guy takes a lot of face-offs for a reason. Yeah I have no idea why Pitt wants him. Their issue is that their forward depth is fucking awful and they're not exactly full of cap room. That bottom six killed them all season. Adding Kessel just to bump down Kunitz or Dupuis seems like a really inefficinet way of dealing with that issue. Then again, Rutherford is the boner who traded a good defensive prospect for Ben Fucking Lovejoy, sooooo But yeah, definitely agree about Kessel. He's there because he's a top 5 scorer in the world, that's it. The issue is that everyone on his line is also not particularly good in their own end either, the defense behind him sucks, and the system they ran prior to canning Carlyle just totally magnified all of those definencies. Bozak should draw interest because he's at least a 3C, maybe a 2C on the right team. He's pretty clearly carried on the first by JVR and Kessel but he's a 40 or so point guy who is fairly good on draws. 3 years @ $4.2 isn't bad, but he is 31.
Well the thing about that Hawk is the Penguins plan on unloading several players (contracts that aren't too top heavy). A player like Kessel would make them a little younger but not by a large margin. In either case, I don't see how they're going to make a deal with the Leafs. The Leafs are looking for more picks rather than adding guys who are beyond their years. They want to field a very young team next year that Babs can mould. Kunitz, T.J. Oshie and Dupuis don't fit that category. There is no rush.
|
|
|
On June 26 2015 22:20 JimmiC wrote:
The issue with Kessel is he needs to produce his absolute best season to be worth the money because he is a negative everywhere else on ice. He is the quintessential 1 trick pony, it's a great trick but if it's not working that night or that year you'd rather he not even be on your team.
The other big factor is it well known he is not a hard worker, he is one of the few NHLrs that comes into camp out of shape and lets just say he doesn't take off his shirt to impress the ladies. Based on this and generally how speed based goal scorers age the projections on him for the last 3-5 years of that contract are not pretty. So are you really will to take that long and high of a cap hit for 2-4 good years where at best he can live up to it? (no hope of exceeding it because even if he score 50 his D will still be awful and he still will not be a good influence on his teammates)
I'm not saying he is untradable because someone will take the chance but the Leafs would be wise to take anything, or nothing if they can get rid of that whole contract.
He gets the rep as not being a hard worker or anything, but the guy is always one of the fastest skaters in the league. Not everyone looks like Stoll haha. There was some study last year about that that I posted here I gotta find it again.
But at any rate, do you not think that Kessel on a good club would be a 80ish pt, postive +/- player again? I think his past play makes it clear that with a real 2nd line to draw off the heat and an average d his scoring will far outtweight any negatives he brings.
The only reason it would make any sense for Toronto to trade him is if they don't think they'll be competitive in the next 3 or so years to get him at his peak years. Which I can understand why they'd consider it since I'm not too sure if they will be. However, they're certainly not in such bad shape that they need to clear him just for the cap space or to be rid of him. It's Toronto, MLSE prints money. They literally traded a guy last season for a guy who they're going to pay to sit on LITR haha.
They certainly have the capital to sit on Kessel until they get a deal that blows them away. I just think it will be hard to get a fair return for a player of his level.
On June 26 2015 23:21 StarStruck wrote:Considering Rutherford is looking at him. If anything were to happen I wonder who's line they'd put him on. I'm well aware of his flaws and what he is. The fact of the matter is the guy still puts it in the net -- I remember when he would always try to go outside to inside- it would drive me nuts. The scary thing is Kessel has all the tools to be better in that he has raw talent. You just have to get through that thick skull of his. Him with Malkin or Sidney sounds kind of ridiculous. The Penguins do want to shake things up a lot this year. Their core isn't getting any younger with guys like Kunitz and Dupuis. The Penguins will be busy this off season. Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 23:20 QuanticHawk wrote:On June 26 2015 21:15 StarStruck wrote:
That's the thing about Kessel though. If you're picking him up you're looking for him to add to your scoring prowess and nothing more really. Screw the +/-. They already got rid of our better +/- guys at the trade deadline and he's a sniper for crying out loud. Last season was his worst and he still put up 25. I doubt we'll see him doing lower than that this upcoming season. Pittsburgh for whatever reason is showing a lot of interest in the guy and Rutherford is already close to the cap so I'm really interested what they're trying to offer the Leafs in return considering they have a few players I'd call untouchable.
As for Bozak. He's actually one of the easier guys to move. The guy takes a lot of face-offs for a reason. Yeah I have no idea why Pitt wants him. Their issue is that their forward depth is fucking awful and they're not exactly full of cap room. That bottom six killed them all season. Adding Kessel just to bump down Kunitz or Dupuis seems like a really inefficinet way of dealing with that issue. Then again, Rutherford is the boner who traded a good defensive prospect for Ben Fucking Lovejoy, sooooo But yeah, definitely agree about Kessel. He's there because he's a top 5 scorer in the world, that's it. The issue is that everyone on his line is also not particularly good in their own end either, the defense behind him sucks, and the system they ran prior to canning Carlyle just totally magnified all of those definencies. Bozak should draw interest because he's at least a 3C, maybe a 2C on the right team. He's pretty clearly carried on the first by JVR and Kessel but he's a 40 or so point guy who is fairly good on draws. 3 years @ $4.2 isn't bad, but he is 31. Well the thing about that Hawk is the Penguins plan on unloading several players (contracts that aren't too top heavy). A player like Kessel would make them a little younger but not by a large margin. In either case, I don't see how they're going to make a deal with the Leafs. The Leafs are looking for more picks rather than adding guys who are beyond their years. They want to field a very young team next year that Babs can mould. Kunitz, T.J. Oshie and Dupuis don't fit that category. There is no rush.
Yeah I don't think the Penguins have too many things that the Leafs need. If they're gonna trade Kessel they might as well go full rebuild and then they should only accept young players and picks. So yeah, Peron, Dupuis, Kunitzs wouldn't do a whole lot for them.
Supposedly they might move one of their young dman, but they also wanna move Sutter who shouldnt' be too attractive to the Leafs. They can easily get a comparable or better third liner in FA.
I mean like if Beau Bennet or Maata were in talks then it's a different ball game. But Rutherford is kind of shitty so I wouldn't be surprised if they were.
in other news, the Avs traded a 6th for the rights to Carl Soderberg. They just signed him: five years, 4.75 AAV, NTC first two years, limited NTC last three.
So I'm pretty sure that means Ryan Oreilly is donezo there. On one hand I think Soderberg is ok. On the other, he'll be 30 when the season starts and has never scored more than 48 pts, but he mostly played on Boston's third.
A lot of people are big on ROR, but he's apparently asking for 7.5+. That seems a little bonkers to me considering he's broken 20 goals/60pts once in like 6 seasons?
|
also i'm gonna make the new thread later on for the draft, so please submit your stupid puns and witty thread titles
|
Kau
Canada3500 Posts
You call dibs on McDavid? Eichel dibs on Eichel.
|
On June 27 2015 00:40 Kau wrote:
You call dibs on McDavid? Eichel dibs on Eichel.
I'm not even going to try and come up with a better one then that..
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
