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red_
United States8474 Posts
On February 28 2014 12:49 DystopiaX wrote: You could actually make an argument for KD this year though. IMO you'd actually have to 'make an argument' for Lebron right now. KD is the leader emotionally, statistically(whether basic points/reb/assist/shot %s type stats or more advanced metrics), and 'eyeball' test wise(although that is mostly the January stretch, it's still true). 30 games left though. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On February 27 2014 20:40 RowdierBob wrote: Come on, don't you support the Clips and flop city?! Everyone who's anyone in the NBA has something to dislike about their game. And I believe Zach referred to Bogues as 'wonderful bastardry'. We take that as a compliment Down Under.  Oh don't think that I don't see why people dislike the Clippers. Blake and DJ try to put everyone on a poster as much as possible, Paul and Blake have been caught with some egregious flopping, Barnes is a right bastard himself, Paul is just generally willing to use every dirty and/or sneaky trick there is in the book, etc. I have my own counters to the criticism that are leveled their way, but I'm not sitting here and taking a holier than thou art position. The issue was what people dislike about the Warriors and I put in my own two cents. I find it odd that Bogut's dirty physical play is admired while Paul's dirty sneaky play is deplored. Both are essentially doing the same thing, i.e. taking full advantage of the rules, fooling refs, etc. to give their teams an advantage. Is it just because Bogut is a big and being a brute? | ||
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Haiq343
United States2548 Posts
On February 28 2014 13:24 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Oh don't think that I don't see why people dislike the Clippers. Blake and DJ try to put everyone on a poster as much as possible, Paul and Blake have been caught with some egregious flopping, Barnes is a right bastard himself, Paul is just generally willing to use every dirty and/or sneaky trick there is in the book, etc. I have my own counters to the criticism that are leveled their way, but I'm not sitting here and taking a holier than thou art position. The issue was what people dislike about the Warriors and I put in my own two cents. I find it odd that Bogut's dirty physical play is admired while Paul's dirty sneaky play is deplored. Both are essentially doing the same thing, i.e. taking full advantage of the rules, fooling refs, etc. to give their teams an advantage. Is it just because Bogut is a big and being a brute? There's a bit of a difference between Paul's most common violation (the egregious flop) and Bogut's more dangerous?violent? --Neither word is right but it's much more aggressive/physical cheap-shotty stuff. Flopping is lame but no one is going to get hurt by it, Bogut often seems like the only reason he isn't constantly provoking brawls is that other players are reluctant to defend themselves. Part 2 is that CP gets something of a pass because he's so good that much of the conversation around him is about that, whereas the only time Bogut really makes national notice is for some kind of ought-to-be-illegal shenanigans. Neither of those reasons is 'fair', but they certainly play part. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 28 2014 13:24 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Oh don't think that I don't see why people dislike the Clippers. Blake and DJ try to put everyone on a poster as much as possible, Paul and Blake have been caught with some egregious flopping, Barnes is a right bastard himself, Paul is just generally willing to use every dirty and/or sneaky trick there is in the book, etc. I have my own counters to the criticism that are leveled their way, but I'm not sitting here and taking a holier than thou art position. The issue was what people dislike about the Warriors and I put in my own two cents. I find it odd that Bogut's dirty physical play is admired while Paul's dirty sneaky play is deplored. Both are essentially doing the same thing, i.e. taking full advantage of the rules, fooling refs, etc. to give their teams an advantage. Is it just because Bogut is a big and being a brute? No. Its because Bogut is winning his matchups by doing something while the refs turn their back, whereas Paul does something hilariously stupid while drawing attention to himself. On top of that, there is the (correct IMO) feeling that the rules are already weighed in favor of the Chris Pauls and against the Boguts. Its like two kids cheating on a test. Bogut is a kid who is good at math, but not that great at spelling. Paul is great at spelling, but only ok at math. The teacher always puts 35 spelling questions on the test, and only 15 math problems, so Paul shouldn't really need to cheat anyways. But they both cheat on the test. Bogut cheats by writing some spelling words on his hand, while Paul cheats by stealing the answer key from the teacher then waves it around in front of his classmates after the exam. | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13426 Posts
Bogues is a 'tough' player whereas Paul is a diving douche. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On February 28 2014 13:33 cLutZ wrote: No. Its because Bogut is winning his matchups by doing something while the refs turn their back, whereas Paul does something hilariously stupid while drawing attention to himself. On top of that, there is the (correct IMO) feeling that the rules are already weighed in favor of the Chris Pauls and against the Boguts. Its like two kids cheating on a test. Bogut is a kid who is good at math, but not that great at spelling. Paul is great at spelling, but only ok at math. The teacher always puts 35 spelling questions on the test, and only 15 math problems, so Paul shouldn't really need to cheat anyways. But they both cheat on the test. Bogut cheats by writing some spelling words on his hand, while Paul cheats by stealing the answer key from the teacher then waves it around in front of his classmates after the exam. I don't think that analogy holds water... I know this is likely going to be full of holes since I'm posting this while exhausted from work, but I'll take a stab at some of my perceived differences. Consider that Paul is almost always one of the smallest guys on the court, isn't very athletic (compared to the rest at his level), has had some of his quickness robbed by various injuries, and is playing in a sport filled with taller and faster people. Opponents are often putting larger, stronger defenders on him these days too, who he certainly has a physical disadvantage against. To be effective, he has to attack the basket from time to time and deal with getting banged up by all those bigger players too. All of that makes his flopping and dramatics more appropriate as compared to someone like Lebron or Bosh doing the same thing (not picking on the Heat, just happened to be the two bigger players who came to mind first). It's definitely an overly dramatic way of wording it, but Paul's antics are arguably more a matter of "necessity" and protecting himself. Bogut is usually one of the biggest guys on the court in terms of height, weight and strength. He's slower and less athletic than many others, but he plays a position where his strengths are maximized and his job is to stay in the paint and near the rim anyway. While the current rules certainly make it harder for him to defend smaller and quicker players, they don't limit his effectiveness at rebounding, blocking shots, or scoring around the hoop. His antics aren't really necessary or about protecting himself. My guess is that people feel better about Bogut's antics because basketball is a physical sport and he's being physical with his tricks, while Paul, on the other hand, is using mental/acting tricks to make up for his inability to compete with straight physicality. | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
On February 28 2014 13:41 RowdierBob wrote: Maybe a cultural thing too? Guys like Bogues are common place playing sport in Aus. Playing physical etc is expected and revered. But faking injury or diving is deplored. Its funny: if you get away with a little shirt tug you'll be revered but if your shirt is tugged and you dive/flop people will hate you. Bogues is a 'tough' player whereas Paul is a diving douche. I don't think it's cultural, it's ingrained in most basketball culture to be tough. Remember "no blood, no foul." I think it might derive from the fact that the player most of these guys grew up watching and dominating the league would have tripped his own grandmother if it helped him win a championship. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 28 2014 13:52 XaI)CyRiC wrote: I don't think that analogy holds water... I know this is likely going to be full of holes since I'm posting this while exhausted from work, but I'll take a stab at some of my perceived differences. Consider that Paul is almost always one of the smallest guys on the court, isn't very athletic (compared to the rest at his level), has had some of his quickness robbed by various injuries, and is playing in a sport filled with taller and faster people. Opponents are often putting larger, stronger defenders on him these days too, who he certainly has a physical disadvantage against. To be effective, he has to attack the basket from time to time and deal with getting banged up by all those bigger players too. All of that makes his flopping and dramatics more appropriate as compared to someone like Lebron or Bosh doing the same thing (not picking on the Heat, just happened to be the two bigger players who came to mind first). It's definitely an overly dramatic way of wording it, but Paul's antics are arguably more a matter of "necessity" and protecting himself. Bogut is usually one of the biggest guys on the court in terms of height, weight and strength. He's slower and less athletic than many others, but he plays a position where his strengths are maximized and his job is to stay in the paint and near the rim anyway. While the current rules certainly make it harder for him to defend smaller and quicker players, they don't limit his effectiveness at rebounding, blocking shots, or scoring around the hoop. His antics aren't really necessary or about protecting himself. My guess is that people feel better about Bogut's antics because basketball is a physical sport and he's being physical with his tricks, while Paul, on the other hand, is using mental/acting tricks to make up for his inability to compete with straight physicality. Well... 1. People used to love CP3 for being the "little guy" and stuff. But that was when he was carrying a bad NO team on his back. The reality is being a physical specimen is part of being in sports, and we don't excuse guys for having slightly smaller frames, or verticals. I mean, most players in most sports are in the professional ranks based on physical ability alone. Lebron James is the best basketball player in the world, but there are hundreds (probably millions to be honest) that would be just as good at basketball as him if they were given his body at age 10. 2. Everyone deplores Lebron and Bosh's flopping as well. LBJ gets a lot of heat for it, as well as guys like Harden, etc. In all cases, its just like the kid who steals the test. 3. The rules really do limit his effectiveness at at least 2 of those 3 things, and Pauls antics aren't about protecting himself, its about getting points for essentially free. 4. Most importantly, the egregiousness of the infractions is simply not comparable. I am not going to look up CP3's FT%, but ill assume its 90%. That means a successful flop is worth (at 109 pts per 100 possessions) ~ .7 points. Which is slightly lower because it doesn't account for the fact that their points per possession is inflated by his flopping, or the likelihood that he will only be flopping in situations that it is more difficult to score. Its safe to assume a flop is worth at least a point. To compare, that is basically the equivalent of Bogut tackling the ballhandler as they come down the court 5 times every 11 possessions and not getting called for it. Edited, because after getting a beer I realized how ridiculous that stat is. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13426 Posts
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On February 28 2014 14:22 cLutZ wrote: 4. Most importantly, the egregiousness of the infractions is simply not comparable. I am not going to look up CP3's FT%, but ill assume its 90%. That means a successful flop is worth (at 109 pts per 100 possessions) ~ .7 points. Which is slightly lower because it doesn't account for the fact that their points per possession is inflated by his flopping, or the likelihood that he will only be flopping in situations that it is more difficult to score. Its safe to assume a flop is worth at least a point. To compare, that is basically the equivalent of Bogut tackling the ballhandler as they come down the court 5 times every 11 possessions and not getting called for it. The vast vast vast majority of flops occur on the defensive end to get an offensive foul called, so there are no free throws awarded. FT% and Clipper's PPP really has nothing to do with how effective a flop is. It's actually about opponent points per possession and offensive rebounding because the flop generally takes away a shot, which removes the chance of it being made or rebounded. We're talking about -2(maybe 3 if the 'flop' turns a should be blocking foul into a charge) points for the opponent, not added points for the flopper. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 28 2014 14:53 red_ wrote: The vast vast vast majority of flops occur on the defensive end to get an offensive foul called, so there are no free throws awarded. FT% and Clipper's PPP really has nothing to do with how effective a flop is. It's actually about opponent points per possession and offensive rebounding because the flop generally takes away a shot, which removes the chance of it being made or rebounded. We're talking about -2(maybe 3 if the 'flop' turns a should be blocking foul into a charge) points for the opponent, not added points for the flopper. You realize the math equation is basically the same on both sides of the court right? A flop on either end is worth the difference between the expected points for that team and what they got. If we ever get access to the video stats data the value of flopping is going to be hilariously high. In like 20 years people will be looking at models and asking questions like, "wow, why did teams foul James Harden so much in situations where he made less than 20% of his shots"? and "man this Shane Battier was really good at positioning during situations that the offense normally would score 80% of the time, despite being pretty damn slow otherwise." | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
http://instagram.com/p/k8njC1MkfG/ | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On February 28 2014 15:11 cLutZ wrote: You realize the math equation is basically the same on both sides of the court right? A flop on either end is worth the difference between the expected points for that team and what they got. If we ever get access to the video stats data the value of flopping is going to be hilariously high. In like 20 years people will be looking at models and asking questions like, "wow, why did teams foul James Harden so much in situations where he made less than 20% of his shots"? and "man this Shane Battier was really good at positioning during situations that the offense normally would score 80% of the time, despite being pretty damn slow otherwise." My point(well, two of them) was that a) FT% is literally a non factor because free throws aren't shot as a result and b) a possession lost by x offense isn't equal to a possession gained by y offense, because their offensive efficiencies are different. It would be extremely difficult to actually model because there are so many factors. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
The last Grantland piece on the new camera stuff basically demonstrated that calculating what Im talking about is just a question of crunching numbers on a mainframe. And to be honest, the hardest part of it is image capture, which is rapidly improving. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On February 28 2014 15:47 cLutZ wrote: I think that would actually be really easy to model. Ray Allen flopping is worth more than Andre Drummond flopping. Flopping on a fast break is worth less than flopping with 2 seconds on the shot clock. Flopping to stop a layup is worth more than flopping to stop a fadeaway 18 footer. The last Grantland piece on the new camera stuff basically demonstrated that calculating what Im talking about is just a question of crunching numbers on a mainframe. And to be honest, the hardest part of it is image capture, which is rapidly improving. I guess 'painstaking' is the better descriptor. There is so much that factors into every possession(literally all 10 players on the court and their position, shot clock time, game time, and game score) that changes the value of the flop. It's not 'hard' but it's a ton of information. Yes the modern advances in arena camera technology are making it possible. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On February 28 2014 13:24 XaI)CyRiC wrote: I find it odd that Bogut's dirty physical play is admired while Paul's dirty sneaky play is deplored. Both are essentially doing the same thing, i.e. taking full advantage of the rules, fooling refs, etc. to give their teams an advantage. Is it just because Bogut is a big and being a brute? Why is it odd? There's not many things that piss me more off than flopping, and he's as bad as it gets. He constantly whines as well, which is annoying too. (yes i am aware lots of people whine and work over the refs)  Tough loss for my Raptors tonight  Hopefully Ross' injury isn't bad. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On February 28 2014 16:03 AxionSteel wrote: Why is it odd? There's not many things that piss me more off than flopping, and he's as bad as it gets. He constantly whines as well, which is annoying too. (yes i am aware lots of people whine and work over the refs) Tough loss for my Raptors tonight Hopefully Ross' injury isn't bad.You missed the part where it's being considered in comparison to the type of dirty play that Bogut employs, and not in a vacuum by itself. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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