• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:53
CEST 19:53
KST 02:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy3uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event14Serral wins EWC 202549Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple5SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event Rogue Talks: "Koreans could dominate again" Lambo Talks: The Future of SC2 and more... RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
SEL Masters #5 - Korea vs Russia (SC Evo) Enki Epic Series #5 - TaeJa vs Classic (SC Evo) ByuN vs TaeJa Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Global Tourney for College Students in September RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion ASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking! BSL Polish World Championship 2025 20-21 September BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups
Tourneys
KCM 2025 Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 610 users

TL Health and Fitness Initiative 2013 - Page 70

Forum Index > Sports
Post a Reply
Prev 1 68 69 70 71 72 180 Next
MtlGuitarist97
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1539 Posts
May 14 2013 19:56 GMT
#1381
On May 15 2013 04:48 Osmoses wrote:
Friend of mine and I got to talking about diet today and the subject of saturated fats came up. The internet can't seem to agree, are saturated fats still considered "bad"? It's cited as one of the reasons not to go to McDonalds. But I fucking love McDonalds.

Nothing is terrible in moderation, but saturated fats shouldn't make up the majority of your diet

I'm not professional nutritionist, but I'd say that you wouldn't want to eat too much saturated fat. You probably would want to get the majority of your saturated fat from things like meat, and avoid the trans fat that you get from fast food. There's really no reason to eat that processed garbage (even if it does taste good), since it's basically pure saturated/trans fats and just awful for you.
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-14 20:16:01
May 14 2013 19:57 GMT
#1382
As mentioned above, our body mostly contains cis fatty acids. Whether our cells make them or they are from natural diet sources, they are all of cis configuration. Since all the natural fats are cis, the cellular enzymes have active sites that preferentially metabolize cis fatty acids. So over several years, trans fats accumulate in the body over those of cis form. Since all the natural fatty acids are cis, the enzymes that synthesize triglycerides and the enzymes that breakdown fats for energy, may not work efficiently. If they are not natural molecules, the cell’s enzymes can’t either break them or break them inefficiently. In addition as the trans fats accumulate in the body, as they are similar in structure to cis fats (to an extent) they mat act as competitive inhibitors to fatty acid metabolizing enzymes.
In addition, when natural cis fatty acids are incorporated into the cell membranes, as they have cis configuration, they do not pack very compact thus giving fluidity to the cell membrane. If membranes contain trans fats in them, the membrane fluidity will be affected. It is also likely that membrane receptor function will also be affected.
If the Trans fatty acids are incorporated into erythrocyte membranes, the membranes would be more rigid and erythrocytes would break as they travel through the microcapillaries.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Structural_Biochemistry/Lipids/Fatty_Acids

This is what I found. I'll get back to you once I've read the whole page and understand it.
It's quite simple actually:
1. Our cells prefer breaking down "natural fats", the ones of the cis configuration. Why? Because our body mostly contains these "natural" fats. Therefore "Unnatural fats" like trans fats/saturated fats won't be broken down as much and accumulate in the body-->You get fat. Saturated fats are hard to break down because they don't have that cis configuration. It's impossible for them to have this configuration because they are saturated with hydrogen.
2. Once these saturated fats/trans fats have accumulated in the body they start getting in the way of the enzymes resulting into the enzymes having a harder time breaking down the natural fats.
3. Trans/saturated fats mess with our cell structure because their structure differs from the fats normally found in our body.

They aren't good because they make you faster fat than natural fats and screw up your cells. Why doesn't my shitty Biology book give explanations like these. The only thing my biology book said: Saturated fats are bad because they just are. If they just explained it like this I could actually remember this stuff because it has connections to other things I've learnt. /sigh education these days.

Women with high levels of trans fat in their bloodstreams had three times the risk of developing heart disease as women with the lowest levels of these kinds of fats. C-reactive protein (CRP) is made by the liver. Its levels in the blood are indicators of inflammation. A study of 700 nurses showed that those in the highest quartile of trans fat consumption had blood levels of CRP levels 73% higher than those in the lowest quartile. A 6 year study, monkeys fed with trans fats gained 7.2% body weight compared to 1.8% weight gain in monkeys fed with monounsaturated fats.

Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-14 20:52:11
May 14 2013 20:48 GMT
#1383
Oh maybe I had trans fats and saturated fats mixes up. Anyway. Would make more sense to call them unsaturated.

I was also under the impression that your body doesn't take the fat you eat and make it yours. Basically eating fat doesn't make you fat. I mean if the fats you eat dont get broken down, wouldn't that mean you just shit it out?

edit: good lord, I'm reading the article and it's like carbonatoms and E-isomer and mono and poly and hydrogenated WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT oO
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-14 21:26:06
May 14 2013 21:22 GMT
#1384
Both trans and saturated fats are shitty for you.

edit: good lord, I'm reading the article and it's like carbonatoms and E-isomer and mono and poly and hydrogenated WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT oO


Nah, it just looks daunting. It's all very basic stuff, everything you don't understand the terminology for looks hard.
MtlGuitarist97
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1539 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-14 22:10:06
May 14 2013 22:06 GMT
#1385
On May 15 2013 06:22 Recognizable wrote:
Both trans and saturated fats are shitty for you.

Show nested quote +
edit: good lord, I'm reading the article and it's like carbonatoms and E-isomer and mono and poly and hydrogenated WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT oO


Nah, it just looks daunting. It's all very basic stuff, everything you don't understand the terminology for looks hard.

I have a basic understanding of biology (AP level) but I can try and explain a little bit of what is going on with these fats.

Saturated fats have hydrogen bonds at every single spot possible. This means that their molecular bonds are completely filled with hydrogen, and harder to break down. Unsaturated bonds feature a double bond between two oxygen atoms (If I'm not mistaken, I'm 99% sure it's oxygen) meaning that they are not completely filled with hydrogen.

What does this mean for us humans though? This means that saturated fats (not going to get into trans fats) are solids at room temperature, whereas unsaturated will be liquids. This can lead to congestion of the arteries and veins, as well as just a buildup of plaque and other nasty stuff. It also is just not as good for you and can turn into really nasty amounts of visceral fat. Obviously you need to have some of both types of fats, but your good fatty acids (Omega 3s, 6s, and 9s) are all unsaturated fats. The omega and the number actually refers to the position of the double bond on the actual monomer itself.

Edit: That's not to say that I might not be wrong though.
GuiltyJerk
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States584 Posts
May 14 2013 22:25 GMT
#1386
On May 15 2013 07:06 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2013 06:22 Recognizable wrote:
Both trans and saturated fats are shitty for you.

edit: good lord, I'm reading the article and it's like carbonatoms and E-isomer and mono and poly and hydrogenated WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT oO


Nah, it just looks daunting. It's all very basic stuff, everything you don't understand the terminology for looks hard.

I have a basic understanding of biology (AP level) but I can try and explain a little bit of what is going on with these fats.

Saturated fats have hydrogen bonds at every single spot possible. This means that their molecular bonds are completely filled with hydrogen, and harder to break down. Unsaturated bonds feature a double bond between two oxygen atoms (If I'm not mistaken, I'm 99% sure it's oxygen) meaning that they are not completely filled with hydrogen.

What does this mean for us humans though? This means that saturated fats (not going to get into trans fats) are solids at room temperature, whereas unsaturated will be liquids. This can lead to congestion of the arteries and veins, as well as just a buildup of plaque and other nasty stuff. It also is just not as good for you and can turn into really nasty amounts of visceral fat. Obviously you need to have some of both types of fats, but your good fatty acids (Omega 3s, 6s, and 9s) are all unsaturated fats. The omega and the number actually refers to the position of the double bond on the actual monomer itself.

Edit: That's not to say that I might not be wrong though.


The double bond is between 2 carbon atoms, but otherwise that's a very nice summary of it
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20021 Posts
May 14 2013 22:29 GMT
#1387
Saturated fats aren't necessarily bad for you. I'd cite shit but I'm on my phone lol
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
MtlGuitarist97
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1539 Posts
May 14 2013 22:55 GMT
#1388
On May 15 2013 07:25 GuiltyJerk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2013 07:06 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
On May 15 2013 06:22 Recognizable wrote:
Both trans and saturated fats are shitty for you.

edit: good lord, I'm reading the article and it's like carbonatoms and E-isomer and mono and poly and hydrogenated WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT oO


Nah, it just looks daunting. It's all very basic stuff, everything you don't understand the terminology for looks hard.

I have a basic understanding of biology (AP level) but I can try and explain a little bit of what is going on with these fats.

Saturated fats have hydrogen bonds at every single spot possible. This means that their molecular bonds are completely filled with hydrogen, and harder to break down. Unsaturated bonds feature a double bond between two oxygen atoms (If I'm not mistaken, I'm 99% sure it's oxygen) meaning that they are not completely filled with hydrogen.

What does this mean for us humans though? This means that saturated fats (not going to get into trans fats) are solids at room temperature, whereas unsaturated will be liquids. This can lead to congestion of the arteries and veins, as well as just a buildup of plaque and other nasty stuff. It also is just not as good for you and can turn into really nasty amounts of visceral fat. Obviously you need to have some of both types of fats, but your good fatty acids (Omega 3s, 6s, and 9s) are all unsaturated fats. The omega and the number actually refers to the position of the double bond on the actual monomer itself.

Edit: That's not to say that I might not be wrong though.


The double bond is between 2 carbon atoms, but otherwise that's a very nice summary of it

Damn, I couldn't really recall. My poor brain Q_Q
GuiltyJerk
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States584 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-15 00:20:56
May 15 2013 00:20 GMT
#1389
On May 15 2013 07:55 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2013 07:25 GuiltyJerk wrote:
On May 15 2013 07:06 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
On May 15 2013 06:22 Recognizable wrote:
Both trans and saturated fats are shitty for you.

edit: good lord, I'm reading the article and it's like carbonatoms and E-isomer and mono and poly and hydrogenated WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT oO


Nah, it just looks daunting. It's all very basic stuff, everything you don't understand the terminology for looks hard.

I have a basic understanding of biology (AP level) but I can try and explain a little bit of what is going on with these fats.

Saturated fats have hydrogen bonds at every single spot possible. This means that their molecular bonds are completely filled with hydrogen, and harder to break down. Unsaturated bonds feature a double bond between two oxygen atoms (If I'm not mistaken, I'm 99% sure it's oxygen) meaning that they are not completely filled with hydrogen.

What does this mean for us humans though? This means that saturated fats (not going to get into trans fats) are solids at room temperature, whereas unsaturated will be liquids. This can lead to congestion of the arteries and veins, as well as just a buildup of plaque and other nasty stuff. It also is just not as good for you and can turn into really nasty amounts of visceral fat. Obviously you need to have some of both types of fats, but your good fatty acids (Omega 3s, 6s, and 9s) are all unsaturated fats. The omega and the number actually refers to the position of the double bond on the actual monomer itself.

Edit: That's not to say that I might not be wrong though.


The double bond is between 2 carbon atoms, but otherwise that's a very nice summary of it

Damn, I couldn't really recall. My poor brain Q_Q



Meh, it's not a huge deal part of what makes it a fatty acid though is a double bond between a carbon and an oxygen :D:D:D but this is TL Health Fitness not TL Biochem
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
May 15 2013 00:47 GMT
#1390
read the OP you jerks!!!!

eshlow provided links already
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20021 Posts
May 15 2013 01:46 GMT
#1391
On May 15 2013 09:47 AoN.DimSum wrote:
read the OP you jerks!!!!

eshlow provided links already

Guilty jerk is a guilty jerk!
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
GuiltyJerk
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States584 Posts
May 15 2013 02:05 GMT
#1392
On May 15 2013 10:46 decafchicken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2013 09:47 AoN.DimSum wrote:
read the OP you jerks!!!!

eshlow provided links already

Guilty jerk is a guilty jerk!



Tis what I do best I'm too much of a chem nerd to resist the chemistry conversation
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20021 Posts
May 15 2013 03:01 GMT
#1393
from nih
A focus of dietary recommendations for cardiovascular disease (CVD) prevention and treatment has been a reduction in saturated fat intake, primarily as a means of lowering LDL-cholesterol concentrations. However, the evidence that supports a reduction in saturated fat intake must be evaluated in the context of replacement by other macronutrients. Clinical trials that replaced saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat have generally shown a reduction in CVD events, although several studies showed no effects. An independent association of saturated fat intake with CVD risk has not been consistently shown in prospective epidemiologic studies, although some have provided evidence of an increased risk in young individuals and in women. Replacement of saturated fat by polyunsaturated or monounsaturated fat lowers both LDL and HDL cholesterol. However, replacement with a higher carbohydrate intake, particularly refined carbohydrate, can exacerbate the atherogenic dyslipidemia associated with insulin resistance and obesity that includes increased triglycerides, small LDL particles, and reduced HDL cholesterol. In summary, although substitution of dietary polyunsaturated fat for saturated fat has been shown to lower CVD risk, there are few epidemiologic or clinical trial data to support a benefit of replacing saturated fat with carbohydrate. Furthermore, particularly given the differential effects of dietary saturated fats and carbohydrates on concentrations of larger and smaller LDL particles, respectively, dietary efforts to improve the increasing burden of CVD risk associated with atherogenic dyslipidemia should primarily emphasize the limitation of refined carbohydrate intakes and a reduction in excess adiposity.


tldr - no clear link between saturated fat and CVD, high/refined carb intake = bad.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-15 04:21:18
May 15 2013 04:14 GMT
#1394
On May 15 2013 07:06 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2013 06:22 Recognizable wrote:
Both trans and saturated fats are shitty for you.

edit: good lord, I'm reading the article and it's like carbonatoms and E-isomer and mono and poly and hydrogenated WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT oO


Nah, it just looks daunting. It's all very basic stuff, everything you don't understand the terminology for looks hard.

I have a basic understanding of biology (AP level) but I can try and explain a little bit of what is going on with these fats.

Saturated fats have hydrogen bonds at every single spot possible. This means that their molecular bonds are completely filled with hydrogen, and harder to break down. Unsaturated bonds feature a double bond between two oxygen atoms (If I'm not mistaken, I'm 99% sure it's oxygen) meaning that they are not completely filled with hydrogen.

CORRECT

What does this mean for us humans though? This means that saturated fats (not going to get into trans fats) are solids at room temperature, whereas unsaturated will be liquids.

Good thing our bodies are not at room temperature

This can lead to congestion of the arteries and veins, as well as just a buildup of plaque and other nasty stuff.

Wrong

It also is just not as good for you and can turn into really nasty amounts of visceral fat.

Wrong, increased caloric intake over maintenance causes this. In fact, de novo lipogenesis increases with refined carbohydrate intake ESPECIALLY fructose through general obesity and metabolic syndrome. NOT because of saturated fat intake.

Obviously you need to have some of both types of fats, but your good fatty acids (Omega 3s, 6s, and 9s) are all unsaturated fats. The omega and the number actually refers to the position of the double bond on the actual monomer itself.

Debatable... typically modern diets have too much O6/O9 and too little O3

Edit: That's not to say that I might not be wrong though.


Fixed.

On May 15 2013 04:57 Recognizable wrote:
Show nested quote +
As mentioned above, our body mostly contains cis fatty acids. Whether our cells make them or they are from natural diet sources, they are all of cis configuration. Since all the natural fats are cis, the cellular enzymes have active sites that preferentially metabolize cis fatty acids. So over several years, trans fats accumulate in the body over those of cis form. Since all the natural fatty acids are cis, the enzymes that synthesize triglycerides and the enzymes that breakdown fats for energy, may not work efficiently. If they are not natural molecules, the cell’s enzymes can’t either break them or break them inefficiently. In addition as the trans fats accumulate in the body, as they are similar in structure to cis fats (to an extent) they mat act as competitive inhibitors to fatty acid metabolizing enzymes.
In addition, when natural cis fatty acids are incorporated into the cell membranes, as they have cis configuration, they do not pack very compact thus giving fluidity to the cell membrane. If membranes contain trans fats in them, the membrane fluidity will be affected. It is also likely that membrane receptor function will also be affected.
If the Trans fatty acids are incorporated into erythrocyte membranes, the membranes would be more rigid and erythrocytes would break as they travel through the microcapillaries.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Structural_Biochemistry/Lipids/Fatty_Acids

This is what I found. I'll get back to you once I've read the whole page and understand it.
It's quite simple actually:
1. Our cells prefer breaking down "natural fats", the ones of the cis configuration. Why? Because our body mostly contains these "natural" fats. Therefore "Unnatural fats" like trans fats/saturated fats won't be broken down as much and accumulate in the body-->You get fat. Saturated fats are hard to break down because they don't have that cis configuration. It's impossible for them to have this configuration because they are saturated with hydrogen.

Why are you grouping trans fats (universally bad because they are created through industrial processing with saturated fats?

2. Once these saturated fats/trans fats have accumulated in the body they start getting in the way of the enzymes resulting into the enzymes having a harder time breaking down the natural fats.

Why are you grouping trans fats (universally bad because they are created through industrial processing with saturated fats?

3. Trans/saturated fats mess with our cell structure because their structure differs from the fats normally found in our body.

No, saturated fats don't "mess" with anything. They're a natural energy source, and it depends on the structure of the saturated fat on what specific effects they have in the body

They aren't good because they make you faster fat than natural fats and screw up your cells. Why doesn't my shitty Biology book give explanations like these. The only thing my biology book said: Saturated fats are bad because they just are. If they just explained it like this I could actually remember this stuff because it has connections to other things I've learnt. /sigh education these days.

TOTALLY AND UTTERLY INCORRECT

Show nested quote +
Women with high levels of trans fat in their bloodstreams had three times the risk of developing heart disease as women with the lowest levels of these kinds of fats. C-reactive protein (CRP) is made by the liver. Its levels in the blood are indicators of inflammation. A study of 700 nurses showed that those in the highest quartile of trans fat consumption had blood levels of CRP levels 73% higher than those in the lowest quartile. A 6 year study, monkeys fed with trans fats gained 7.2% body weight compared to 1.8% weight gain in monkeys fed with monounsaturated fats.


Correct, trans fats are bad because trans fats are man made through processes like partially hydrogenating vegetable and seed oils. How they get away with selling shit like margerine is beyond me


Fixed.



trans fats = bad
Saturated fats = differing effects depending on type but generally do not increase CVD/stroke/etc risk.
refined carbohydrates = bad

LDL/HDL/triglycerides/cholesterol are all naturally occurring in the body and thus good.

It's when certain subtypes of LDL-cholesterol turn bad you get issues with CVD. Specifically ApoB (small dense LDL subtype).

This is not increased by saturated fats, but you will see huge increases with refined carbohydrates and trans fats.

SEE THE DAMN OP. I wrote this shit up already.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-15 04:30:26
May 15 2013 04:29 GMT
#1395
Fuck it... here's the post from the nutrition OP sticky

Be forewarned... you are stepping into the science zone.

The myths and facts about saturated fats and cholesterol

First, forget what you have heard about saturated fats and cholesterol. We will look at some of the actual science and biological processes surrounding these to determine whether they are beneficial or harmful.

+ Show Spoiler +
One of the most important analysis of dietary guidelines of the past decades came out last year in Nutritional Journal covering a wide range of topics including saturated fats. This analysis specifically looked at the dietary recommendations for Americans even as the obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, etc. rates continue to rise massively in the US and in most industrialized countries.

Let's go back to the beginning.

There are two main hypotheses to describe the development of cardiovascular disease (among other factors). These are the lipid hypothesis and the chronic endothelial injury hypothesis. Currently, the lipid hypothesis predominates the medical industry; however, as stated in the above analysis of the data there is evidence that may show that it is based, at least partially, on incorrect science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_endothelial_injury_hypothesis

One recent movie, Fat head, looked at exploring the origins of why the lipid hypothesis is supposedly based on faulty science. A bit more on that here:

+ Show Spoiler +


Having looked into the science, I personally do not support the lipid hypothesis and I will detail information later regarding saturated fatty acids and cholesterol later with studies to support why it is likely incorrect.

Let's take a step back.

So what do saturated fats do in the body? What does cholesterol do in the body?

Saturated Fat

There are multiple sources of dietary fatty acids. Lauric acid (12), Myristic acid (14), Palmitic acid (16), and Stearic acid (18) are some of the most common. The only difference between these fatty acids are how many carbons are in the chain length, but as we shall see each of these have different effects on the body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauric_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristic_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitic_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid

Short chain triglycerides I'm going to briefly mention since we have little control over intake of them (as our gut bacteria produces them). However, if you have had issues with digestive problems, food poisoning, and anti-biotics where your gut flora has been decimated it may be a good idea to invest in some good probiotics. In particular, Butyric acid (4 carbon) saturated fatty acid is produced by several gut flora species and has favorable effects on our metabolism and protects against cancer.

Medium chain triglycerides (particular 6-12 carbon fatty acids) of which Lauric acid (12) is an example are extremely beneficial for health. Coconut oil and other coconut products contain a lot of MCTs specifically Lauric acid (66%). MCTs are useful for a variety of reasoning including weight loss -- increases oxidation of fatty acids, increases HDL-cholesterol (e.g. the "good" one), anti-bacterial, anti-oxidant, and is anti-inflammatory.

Most types of animal products have some combination of the long chain triglycerides which include the aforementioned Myristic acid, Palmitic acid, and Stearic acid. Each of these have slightly different effects on the body.

All excess energy in the body is specifically converted into palmitic acid, which will make up the majority of the "triglycerides" that you see in a blood panel. Fructose sugar in particular, is a toxin in the body. When it enters the body through the digestive tract, the liver must convert it into a usable form of energy. The energy form that it is converted into palmitic acid -- a saturated fatty acid.


Cholesterol

Cholesterol is a very, very, very important substance in the body. Cholesterol is in every cell of the body and helps to maintain the fluidity of the cell membranes, and regulation of substances passing through them. Additionally, it is intimately involved in nervous system regulation and makes up a large portion of the myelin sheath that speeds up nerve conduction in the body. Additionally, cholesterol is the backbone on which steroid hormones such as testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, etc. are created, and it is also a precursor to vitamin D as sun is required to photo-convert 7-dehydro-cholesterol into proto-vitamin D. Cholesterol is utilized in the adrenal glands to make cortisol and aldolsterone which help regulate fight-or-flight response, and sodium content in the body. Also, cholesterol is converted in the liver into bile salts which the gallbladder emits to help emulsify fatty acids and absorb many of the fat soluble vitamins -- A, E, D, K -- from dietary sources.

The transport of...

Since cholesterol is a hydrophobic substance, it cannot be transported in the body as it would stick to the vessel walls. Thus, the body creates HDL and LDL which are are lipoproteins (e.g. high density lipoprotein and low density lipoprotein) to transport cholesterol in the blood stream. Lipoproteins are composed of fat and protein. The "fatty" part binds to cholesterol so it can carry it, and the protein portion of it is hydrophilic so it can be dissolved into the blood until it gets to where the body needs it.

HDL carries cholesterol back to the liver, LDL carries cholesterol away from the liver to other tissues.


Lipid panels

So let's talk lipid panels.

When you see LDL and HDL in a blood panel it refers to how much LDL there is, and how much HDL there is.

--------------------

Total cholesterol level -- total cholesterol is technically a misnomer since it is a summation of all of the components of lipids in the blood sample (e.g. what a typical blood stream of someone looks like it). It isn't just total "cholesterol" which would just be a summation of HDL and LDL.

Triglyceride level -- triglycerides represent the amount of fatty acids -- palmitic acid mostly -- that is circulating in your blood stream. Triglycerides are the primary source of energy in the body, especially during aerobic exercise. Glucose is only primarily utilized at anaerobic threshold or above.

HDL cholesterol -- represents the amount of HDL in the body.

LDL cholesterol -- represents the amount of LDL in the body. There's actually lots of different subclasses of LDL proteins which a typical lipid panel won't show. Specifically, oxidized LDL (oLDL) or specifically Apolipoprotein B (or ApoB for short) is extremely strongly correlated with the development of cardiovascular disease. Apo B is sometimes referred to as small, dense LDL.

Therefore, you may have high LDL, but if you have a lot of "fluffier" LDL you are at a relatively low risk for cardiovascular disease. If you have low LDL but a lot of the "small, dense" oLDL / ApoB then you are at high risk for CVD. This is why it is important to get LDL subclasses checked even though most doctor's don't know this.... LDL matters little if you don't know if you have the big, fluffy or the small, dense.

There's actually three other classes of lipoproteins that carry fats in the body. Chylomicrons carry triglycerides from the digestive tract into the body. VLDL (very low density lipoprotein) and IDL (intermediate density lipoprotein) also carry fatty acids, but typically these aren't measured.

--------------------

Why are these supposed to be bad?

HDL, LDL, Cholesterol, triglycerdies, etc are neither "good" or "bad." They are needed in the body for various purposes. Only when they get out of whack does it means something is wrong.

According to the lipid hypothesis, high triglycerides and high LDL and low HDL are supposed to contribute towards heart disease.

Picture of atherosclerotic development
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The development of atherosclerotic lesions show increased fatty accumulations including cholesterol filtrates at the site of the lesion. Sounds correct, right?

Therefore, if you can prove that if high dietary fat intake -- especially saturated fats -- (1) raises blood lipids and (2) increases rates of atherosclerosis then it would be a cause and effect relationship.

Is it cause and effect? Or is it something else.

The chronic endothelial dysfunction theory better fits the data, especially in conjunction with nutritional studies regarding low carbohydrate versus low fat diets. It's funny but every time I browse the literature, there are only good results from low carbohydrate (which include "high fat" and "high protein") diets as opposed to low fat diets.

For example, this mayoclinic study says:

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/78/11/1331.full.pdf
Effect of a High Saturated Fat and No-Starch Diet on Serum Lipid Subfractions in Patients With Documented Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease

• Results: In patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, mean ± SD total body weight (TBW) decreased 5.2%±2.5% (P<.001) as did body fat percentage (P=.02). Nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopic analysis of lipids showed decreases in total triglycerides (P<.001), very low-density lipoprotein (VLDL) triglycerides (P<.001), VLDL size (P<.001), large VLDL concentration (P<.001), and medium VLDL concentration (P<.001). High-density lipoprotein (HDL) and LDL concentrations were unchanged, but HDL size (P=.01) and LDL size (P=.02) increased. Patients with polycystic ovary syndrome lost 14.3%±20.3% of TBW (P=.008) and patients with reactive hypoglycemia lost 19.9%±8.7% of TBW (P<.001) at 24 and 52 weeks, respectively, without adverse effects on serum lipids.


Lipid panels improved on almost every measurable and patients lost weight on a high fat no starch diet. And they had cardiovascular disease. So basically, this diet improved their cardiovascular disease.

Take for example, this non-biased search boolean on low carbohydrate vs. low fat:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=low carbohydrate low fat

The first study suggests:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa022637

Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight lost.

This finding should be interpreted with caution, given the small magnitude of overall and between-group differences in weight loss in these markedly obese subjects and the short duration of the study. Future studies evaluating long-term cardiovascular outcomes are needed before a carbohydrate-restricted diet can be endorsed.


Of course, they ended with the cautioning, but there are many other studies.

The second study suggests:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/4/1617.full?l=5579341

The very low carbohydrate diet group lost more weight (8.5 ± 1.0 vs. 3.9 ± 1.0 kg; P < 0.001) and more body fat (4.8 ± 0.67 vs. 2.0 ± 0.75 kg; P < 0.01) than the low fat diet group. Mean levels of blood pressure, lipids, fasting glucose, and insulin were within normal ranges in both groups at baseline. Although all of these parameters improved over the course of the study, there were no differences observed between the two diet groups at 3 or 6 months. β- Hydroxybutyrate increased significantly in the very low carbohydrate group at 3 months (P = 0.001). Based on these data, a very low carbohydrate diet is more effective than a low fat diet for short-term weight loss and, over 6 months, is not associated with deleterious effects on important cardiovascular risk factors in healthy women.


So they are similar.... oh wait, but hey we didn't look at the study's methods.

Subjects were randomized to 6 months of either an ad libitum very low carbohydrate diet or a calorie-restricted diet with 30% of the calories as fat.


So the low carbohydrate high fat diet did just as well as a calorie restricted lower fat diet. Why didn't they restrict kcals for the high fat diet too? Wouldn't that make a difference as well?

The third study suggests:
http://www.annals.org/content/140/10/769.short

Results: A greater proportion of the low-carbohydrate diet group than the low-fat diet group completed the study (76% vs. 57%; P = 0.02). At 24 weeks, weight loss was greater in the low-carbohydrate diet group than in the low-fat diet group (mean change, −12.9% vs. −6.7%; P < 0.001). Patients in both groups lost substantially more fat mass (change, −9.4 kg with the low-carbohydrate diet vs. −4.8 kg with the low-fat diet) than fat-free mass (change, −3.3 kg vs. −2.4 kg, respectively). Compared with recipients of the low-fat diet, recipients of the low-carbohydrate diet had greater decreases in serum triglyceride levels (change, −0.84 mmol/L vs. −0.31 mmol/L [−74.2 mg/dL vs. −27.9 mg/dL]; P = 0.004) and greater increases in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (0.14 mmol/L vs. −0.04 mmol/L [5.5 mg/dL vs. −1.6 mg/dL]; P < 0.001). Changes in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol level did not differ statistically (0.04 mmol/L [1.6 mg/dL] with the low-carbohydrate diet and −0.19 mmol/L [−7.4 mg/dL] with the low-fat diet; P = 0.2). Minor adverse effects were more frequent in the low-carbohydrate diet group.


So higher retention rate with low carbohydrate. Check. Greater weight loss with low carbohydrate. Check. Low carb decreased serum triglycerides more. Check. Low carb diet increases HDL more. Check. Not sure what the minor adverse effects were, but they sure weren't big enough to have the retention rate go down more than the other group.

So I checked to at least 20 of the top results and low carbohydrate is at least equally or more effective than low fat diets (when compared) at both losing weight and on markers of cardiovascular disease risk. Check them out if you don't believe me.

Meta studies such at this one show similar findings.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2008.00518.x/full

There are few studies comparing the effects of low-carbohydrate/high-protein diets with low-fat/high-carbohydrate diets for obesity and cardiovascular disease risk. This systematic review focuses on randomized controlled trials of low-carbohydrate diets compared with low-fat/low-calorie diets. Studies conducted in adult populations with mean or median body mass index of ≥28 kg m−2 were included. Thirteen electronic databases were searched and randomized controlled trials from January 2000 to March 2007 were evaluated. Trials were included if they lasted at least 6 months and assessed the weight-loss effects of low-carbohydrate diets against low-fat/low-calorie diets. For each study, data were abstracted and checked by two researchers prior to electronic data entry. The computer program Review Manager 4.2.2 was used for the data analysis. Thirteen articles met the inclusion criteria. There were significant differences between the groups for weight, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triacylglycerols and systolic blood pressure, favouring the low-carbohydrate diet. There was a higher attrition rate in the low-fat compared with the low-carbohydrate groups suggesting a patient preference for a low-carbohydrate/high-protein approach as opposed to the Public Health preference of a low-fat/high-carbohydrate diet. Evidence from this systematic review demonstrates that low-carbohydrate/high-protein diets are more effective at 6 months and are as effective, if not more, as low-fat diets in reducing weight and cardiovascular disease risk up to 1 year. More evidence and longer-term studies are needed to assess the long-term cardiovascular benefits from the weight loss achieved using these diets.


Honestly, how much data do you need to accumulate to prove that "high fat" diets do not cause cardiovascular disease. Saturated fat, and cholesterol don't cause cardiovascular disease.

So going back to specifically something like eggs which have a bunch of cholesterol and fat in them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22037012
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20683785
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991244
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21776466
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19369056
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21134328
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15164336
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991244
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18203890
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17531457
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16340654

The evidence vindicates saturated fats risk on heart disease.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract
http://www.ajcn.org/content/80/5/1175.full.pdf html <-- decreased risk in post menopausal women with increased sat fat intake
http://healthydietsandscience.blogspot.com/2011/03/high-saturated-fat-diet-gives.html
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/78/11/1331.full.pdf
etc.

In the same line this is why whole milk is healthier than skim milk:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dairy-fat-and-diabetes.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20372173
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17925824
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11350992

Another interesting article that was ahead of its time:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934396004561

So I hate to beat the drum on things I've already covered but the lipid hypothesis really does not make sense when you look at the literature.

When you find studies that support the role of fats in the development in cardiovascular disease and look at some of the specifics of the diet they ate they usually contain large amounts processed fats such as trans fats (which are notoriously bad for you).

This is to say that NORMAL sources of fats and oils such as animal fats, eggs, milk, butter, etc. are good for you. Industrial processed fats such as margarine, deep fried foods, vegetable oils, etc. in general are bad for you.

So what actually causes cardiovascular disease if it's not saturated fats and cholesterol?

Remember what I said before about lipid profiles?

They indicate something is wrong but they don't indicate what is wrong. The lipid hypothesis takes the incorrect step of saying that the lipids themselves cause the problems.

So that leaves us with the chronic endothelial injury hypothesis.

What likely happens is multifold.

1. Dietary effects of high carbohydrate diets (especially fructose) lead to increases in oxidized LDL. Oxidized LDL can get "stuck" in the endothelial wall which aggravates the tissues. The body sends macrophages to help try to clean up the damage. Inflammation results and the chain reaction continues.

2. Ingestion of large amounts of carbohydrates (especially fructose) lead to increases in advanced glycated end products. Fructose is 9x more likely than glucose to form AGE's by the way.

3. Trans fats.

4. Omega 3 vs Omega 6 fatty acids. Normal ancestral consumption in about 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. Normal consumption now is in 10:1 to 20:1 or higher ratios, especially in fried foods.

5. Dysregulation/dysfunction of the body's systems.

Leptin resistance contibutes to obesity. High carbohydrate/sugar intake contributes to metabolic syndrome and weight gain. All of these contribute to insulin resistance. Insulin resistance starts to contribute to dyslipedemia. You get obese, diabetes, high blood pressure, poor lipid panels. Then you get cancer, stroke, heart attack, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose#Health_effects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-alcoholic_fatty_liver_disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_syndrome

If you are obese or have documented cardiovascular disease et al. you should know that some of the disease can be reversed to an extent with a low carbohydrate, ketogenic, or Paleolithic diet.


Videos if you don't like reading:






So in the end I hope that this was helpful and that you learned something about nutrition.


Basically,

saturated fats = neutral or good depending on how many carbons and type
Trans fats = terrible
Refined carbohydrates = terrible

LDL sub type B / ApoB = Bad = small and dense = raised from trans fats and refined carbohydrates
LDL sub type A = Good = big and fluffy = increased from saturated fat intake

P.S. Coconut = medium chain triglyercides = saturated fat = awesome for health

"Saturated fats" as a blanket term is HORRENDOUS because it doesn't differentiate between any of the types of triglycerides or the carbon number which changes the effects in the body
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20021 Posts
May 15 2013 05:33 GMT
#1396
Margarine makes me sad. Started reading the wiki and had to change it. Damn the french.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
May 15 2013 06:13 GMT
#1397
On May 15 2013 14:33 decafchicken wrote:
Margarine makes me sad. Started reading the wiki and had to change it. Damn the french.


i don't eat margarine mostly because its just disgusting compared to butter.
phyre112
Profile Joined August 2009
United States3090 Posts
May 15 2013 07:37 GMT
#1398
I wrote up a big post, and then I realized that eshlow had already posted later on the topic. I only have my B.S. in biology, and not enough of it covers humans and health, so fuck it, I'll defer to him.

Anyway, from mtlGuitarist's post, it seems like the main problem is that he confuses the action of the fats in the blood stream, in storage, and in actual cell membranes. There are different forms that your body metabolizes fats into at each of these stages, and they all do different things in the body. The important thing is, "saturated fats" aren't all good/bad, and there's a lot of grey area. Just worry about quality of food, anyway.

Anyway, recent research suggests that most of the correlation between saturated fats and heart disease, decades ago are just that - correlation. There's no cause and effect, they just happen to go together, so we "guessed" that they had something to do with each other. Here's a recent study that I went over in my microbiology class - it essentially says that red meat is dangerous in some people, some of the time, because a certain bacteria, that some people have more of than other metabolizes carnitine (an amino acid) into TMAO (a poison that hardens arteries).

http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19/n5/full/nm.3145.html

So according to that, red meat might be bad.... for some people... if you eat too much of it.... and have a certain genetic history and happen to have picked up a certain amount of this certain bacteria... and you don't exercise... and blah blah blah... etc.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
May 15 2013 07:39 GMT
#1399
Lol I'm too cool to read stickys!
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
AsnSensation
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany24009 Posts
May 15 2013 07:48 GMT
#1400
Ya'all hurting my poor mechanical engineering brain, i jut wanna workout and know what i should eat and wht i shouldnt

Anyway squat 120kg for the first time on monday 5x5 and for the first time i had pain in my knee in the evening, probabl just because of poor form on my first 3 sets. Gotta admit i wasnt too focused during those and probably "respected" the weight too much although it was only 2.5kg more than on friday. Set 4&5 were alot cleaner though since i noticedy poor form, cleared m head and focused.

And kneepain was also gone after 8 hours of sleep on tuesday.
Prev 1 68 69 70 71 72 180 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
17:00
S2: Europe Server Qualifier
CranKy Ducklings577
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .231
BRAT_OK 105
ProTech96
Rex 87
MindelVK 48
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 6821
Calm 4918
Horang2 2111
EffOrt 1154
Bisu 1130
Mini 474
actioN 257
ggaemo 226
Larva 209
Barracks 153
[ Show more ]
Mind 150
Hyun 129
Mong 88
sSak 56
yabsab 53
Movie 37
HiyA 11
JulyZerg 9
SilentControl 6
ivOry 3
ToSsGirL 0
Stormgate
TKL 164
Dota 2
Gorgc8057
Dendi1479
420jenkins278
XcaliburYe191
Counter-Strike
qojqva2583
fl0m1957
Foxcn225
Other Games
ceh9532
Beastyqt432
Lowko418
XaKoH 172
ArmadaUGS156
C9.Mang0154
QueenE74
Trikslyr61
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta25
• Reevou 5
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis7578
• Jankos1601
• TFBlade996
Other Games
• imaqtpie1092
• Shiphtur232
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
6h 7m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
17h 7m
The PondCast
1d 16h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 17h
Replay Cast
2 days
LiuLi Cup
2 days
Online Event
3 days
SC Evo League
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
CSO Contender
3 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
SC Evo League
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Sharp vs Ample
Larva vs Stork
Wardi Open
5 days
RotterdaM Event
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
JyJ vs TY
Bisu vs Speed
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

StarCon 2025 Philadelphia
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.