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On December 07 2013 01:33 Najda wrote:
Because you can only gain .5-1 pound of muscle a week you don't want to eat too large a surplus because the excess calories will be fat. It isn't healthy or helpful to suddenly start eating a 1000 calorie surplus unless you literally only care about strength.
You are worried about a limit case. This is why people never gain weight while complaining about what hard gainers they are. To actually change you have to be bold.
The calorie counting on this forum is approaching a math fetish. The human body is highly adaptable and resilient. It is not a fuel cell.
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For me it was easier to do it that way, and I've gained 30 pounds in the process so far so I don't know how you can say it never works. I'm just sharing my experiences as someone who has been where he was because I can relate to it very closely. I would not pretend to try and relate my experiences to someone on the other end, being overweight and trying to come down. (Just an example, not saying you are; I have no idea what your background is)
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It's not as hard as it sounds. Start with eating more than you usually do and if you seem to be putting on weight too fast or not fast enough you just adjust the amount. Micromanagement such as weighing your food and calculating macronutrients is definitely not required when your goal is 10kg away.
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On December 07 2013 01:52 Najda wrote:
For me it was easier to do it that way, and I've gained 30 pounds in the process so far so I don't know how you can say it never works. I'm just sharing my experiences as someone who has been where he was because I can relate to it very closely. I would not pretend to try and relate my experiences to someone on the other end, being overweight and trying to come down. (Just an example, not saying you are; I have no idea what your background is)
My background is being a 160 lb, 6' kid in high school to 240+ in 8 years and back down a bit. With visible abdominal muscle.
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I think IgnE brings up a fair point about being scared to put on weight. There can definitely be an inner conflict of interests going on in the skinny guy's mind when trying to gain. On one hand I want to be jacked like Klokov, on the other hand, a lot of my identity no matter how much I may try to out-reason is tied to what I look like. And my whole life I was skinny and tall. I put on 15 pounds of muscle and fat (still visible abs) and felt irrationally uncomfortable. I think that's probably just a normal response to change and I'm not saying I struggle with that today (I'm still so skinny TT) but I know what it means to have to stuff yourself to gain weight. I tried using the calorie counter and it helped but really it just came down to breakfast/lunch/dinner I ate as much as I could physically. Added in a lot of milk/protein/snacks and I actually put on muscle.
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Honestly?
50kg is even below average weight for an asian girl (who are usually a bit more petite than white girls) so since you're a guy I imagine you aren't more than a pack of bones at the moment. So as IgnE said just actually start eating a ton even "bad foods" and pack on a few kg while also starting either SL or SS for Strength gains.
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Obviously he needs to eat more, and it's likely that even if he were to start stuffing his face he still wouldn't be overeating by too much, but it's important a balance is maintained. Rather than muddle the argument with my own words I'll use two snippets from this article.
Bulking-up diet programs won't produce any more muscle growth than ingesting an ideal amount of nutrients. Sorry, but it's simply not possible to force additional muscle growth by overfeeding.
The more fat cells you have, the easier it is for your body to store fat. And when overeating for a significant period of time, your body increases its number of fat cells, which are impossible to remove without surgery. By adding new fat cells to your body, you're actually making it better at gaining body fat, and worse at losing it.
So the trick is finding that 'ideal amount of nutrients' that will work for you. The article goes on to recommend 800-1000 calorie surplus, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is more aimed for the 70-80kg man and not for someone who is 50 kg, and that a roughly 500 caloric surplus would suffice, and as Igne said it's important you're getting ~1g of protein per pound you weigh, or ~2g per kg.
Really that's a lot of information for someone who is just starting though, which is why I recommend just trying to consistently eat a decent breakfast, lunch, dinner, and have a small snack and that will be enough to get you started. Once the momentum builds, it's easier to be more precise about your diet habits and try to really optimize it.
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That article is a nice example of everything wrong with internet exercise/diet advice, and here's why. It deals in maxims when maxims are simply not appropriate, and this is a problem that plagues the fitness industry. Folks like Shugart and Thibaudeau have one interest above all else, and that is the monetization/maintenance of the sanctity of their authority. Furthermore, the fitness industry is dominated by hardline, basic understandings of public policy, meaning that these folks are no experts when it comes to how one is to situate a particular piece of information given the scope and breadth of society and the people in it. Accordingly, "writers" like Shugart have a vested interest in pretending that lines are clear and cut, when in reality, the vast majority of people NEED to make personal adjustments insofar as diet and training regiment are concerned.
Let's consider the "shut up and squat" mentality. In general, it is a useful means of motivating wussie teenagers into putting hard work into an exercise that is difficult to do and difficult to maintain intensity in training with. BUT, contrary to popular opinion, not everyone should squat, and nor should they fuck themselves up trying. The human anatomy is full to the brim with joints/individual musculatures/angles that all exhibit enormous amounts of genetic differentiation, so much so that there most certainly exists a group of people who have hips too stiff and too wide/narrow or with too cramped an articulation space to ever squat with good effect. Anyone who works with clients over a period of time will come to see this; to pretend otherwise is mere ignorance or, more relevantly, is a maintained interest in streamlining the information with a particular goal in mind. Young men tend to "know what they want", and when it comes to looking for fitness advice, the sure sounding giant guy who expectedly shoves information down his audiences throat is going to develop a bigger fanbase than the more moderate guy saying "well guys, everyone is different, so let's get complicated.".
In thinking along those lines, it becomes readily apparent that the diet advice contained in the above t-nation article is so general it hurts, and in terms of providing an individual with the information they need to make an informed personal health/diet decision, it comes up entirely too short. I mean, come on, the dude lists insulin resistance as a big risk factor in heavy bulking. While I've no doubt that this advice comes from a man who has seen big ass dudes develop pre-diabetes as a result of their daily 3k gainer shakes in addition to bulking diet, this is an incredibly unhelpful bit of fear mongering that seizes on the worst fears of an uninformed group and utilizes them in making a point, a point that fits in nicely alongside the general idea of what a t-nation reader wants to see and read. Most contemporary research indicates that insulin management is incredibly stable in the vast majority of people, so much so that all this talk of meal timings, insulin spikes after workouts, and insulin resistance following heavy bulks is based on pretty much nothing but the personal experiences of big ass dudes, dudes likely blessed or cursed with a genetic makeup that verifies the information they are presenting.
All in all, the fact of the matter is that someone who maintains a 50kg bodyweight is automatically in an entirely different place than someone even at 65kg, and the idea that they will necessarily gain fat as a result of a heavy bulk is based on nothing more than a cursory generalization. As a PT with a fairly well-read background in general health, my first inclination is that a 50kg male has an incredibly hot metabolism, so much so that I'd immediately throw most normal diet considerations out the window. I have seen 5'5 60kg Asian males eat over 8k calories in a day on only an hour and fifteen workout regiment gain no more than a pound or two a week in total, and while I'd certainly not equate a passerby with similar characteristics with them, it gives one an idea as to just how crazily different people can be. So when you read fitness articles that speak in absolutes like a Sith, take pause, a step back, and attempt to identify how you might differ from the case being put before you.
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On December 07 2013 04:56 farvacola wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That article is a nice example of everything wrong with internet exercise/diet advice, and here's why. It deals in maxims when maxims are simply not appropriate, and this is a problem that plagues the fitness industry. Folks like Shugart and Thibaudeau have one interest above all else, and that is the monetization/maintenance of the sanctity of their authority. Furthermore, the fitness industry is dominated by hardline, basic understandings of public policy, meaning that these folks are no experts when it comes to how one is to situate a particular piece of information given the scope and breadth of society and the people in it. Accordingly, "writers" like Shugart have a vested interest in pretending that lines are clear and cut, when in reality, the vast majority of people NEED to make personal adjustments insofar as diet and training regiment are concerned.
Let's consider the "shut up and squat" mentality. In general, it is a useful means of motivating wussie teenagers into putting hard work into an exercise that is difficult to do and difficult to maintain intensity in training with. BUT, contrary to popular opinion, not everyone should squat, and nor should they fuck themselves up trying. The human anatomy is full to the brim with joints/individual musculatures/angles that all exhibit enormous amounts of genetic differentiation, so much so that there most certainly exists a group of people who have hips too stiff and too wide/narrow or with too cramped an articulation space to ever squat with good effect. Anyone who works with clients over a period of time will come to see this; to pretend otherwise is mere ignorance or, more relevantly, has a maintained interest in streamlining the information with a particular goal in mind. Young men tend to "know what they want", and when it comes to looking for fitness advice, the sure sounding giant guy who expectedly shoves information down his audiences throat is going to develop a bigger fanbase than the more moderate guy saying "well guys, everyone is different, so let's get complicated.".
In thinking along those lines, it becomes readily apparent that the diet advice contained in the above t-nation article is so general it hurts, and in terms of providing an individual with the information they need to make an informed personal health/diet decision, it comes up entirely too short. I mean, come on, the dude lists insulin resistance as a big risk factor in heavy bulking. While I've no doubt that this advice comes from a man who has seen big ass dudes develop pre-diabetes as a result of their daily 3k gainer shakes in addition to bulking diet, this is an incredibly unhelpful bit of fear mongering that seizes on the worst fears of an uninformed group and utilizes them in making a point, a point that fits in nicely alongside the general idea of what a t-nation reader wants to see and read. Most contemporary research indicates that insulin management is incredibly stable in the vast majority of people, so much so that all this talk of meal timings, insulin spikes after workouts, and insulin resistance following heavy bulks is based on pretty much nothing but the personal experiences of big ass dudes, dudes likely blessed or cursed with a genetic makeup that verifies the information they are presenting.
All in all, the fact of the matter is that someone who maintains a 50kg bodyweight is automatically in an entirely different place than someone even at 65kg, and the idea that they will necessarily gain fat as a result of a heavy bulk is based on nothing more than a cursory generalization. As a PT with a fairly well-read background in general health, my first inclination is that a 50kg male has an incredibly hot metabolism, so much so that I'd immediately throw most normal diet considerations out the window. I have seen 5'5 60kg Asian males eat over 8k calories in a day on only an hour and fifteen workout regiment gain no more than a pound or two a week in total, and while I'd certainly not equate a passerby with similar characteristics with them, it gives one an idea as to just how crazily different people can be. So when you read fitness articles that speak in absolutes like a Sith, take pause, a step back, and attempt to identify how you might differ from the case being put before you.
I don't get what's so bad about the article. Yeah, everyone is different and the article even mentions that. My main takeaway from the article was: Find your maintenance, and then find the right surplus that works for you to gain weight at a healthy rate. Don't overeat, because getting the weight off again isn't always so simple, and don't under eat because then you'll get nowhere.
Is there anything about those concepts that is wrong?
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On December 07 2013 05:28 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 04:56 farvacola wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That article is a nice example of everything wrong with internet exercise/diet advice, and here's why. It deals in maxims when maxims are simply not appropriate, and this is a problem that plagues the fitness industry. Folks like Shugart and Thibaudeau have one interest above all else, and that is the monetization/maintenance of the sanctity of their authority. Furthermore, the fitness industry is dominated by hardline, basic understandings of public policy, meaning that these folks are no experts when it comes to how one is to situate a particular piece of information given the scope and breadth of society and the people in it. Accordingly, "writers" like Shugart have a vested interest in pretending that lines are clear and cut, when in reality, the vast majority of people NEED to make personal adjustments insofar as diet and training regiment are concerned.
Let's consider the "shut up and squat" mentality. In general, it is a useful means of motivating wussie teenagers into putting hard work into an exercise that is difficult to do and difficult to maintain intensity in training with. BUT, contrary to popular opinion, not everyone should squat, and nor should they fuck themselves up trying. The human anatomy is full to the brim with joints/individual musculatures/angles that all exhibit enormous amounts of genetic differentiation, so much so that there most certainly exists a group of people who have hips too stiff and too wide/narrow or with too cramped an articulation space to ever squat with good effect. Anyone who works with clients over a period of time will come to see this; to pretend otherwise is mere ignorance or, more relevantly, has a maintained interest in streamlining the information with a particular goal in mind. Young men tend to "know what they want", and when it comes to looking for fitness advice, the sure sounding giant guy who expectedly shoves information down his audiences throat is going to develop a bigger fanbase than the more moderate guy saying "well guys, everyone is different, so let's get complicated.".
In thinking along those lines, it becomes readily apparent that the diet advice contained in the above t-nation article is so general it hurts, and in terms of providing an individual with the information they need to make an informed personal health/diet decision, it comes up entirely too short. I mean, come on, the dude lists insulin resistance as a big risk factor in heavy bulking. While I've no doubt that this advice comes from a man who has seen big ass dudes develop pre-diabetes as a result of their daily 3k gainer shakes in addition to bulking diet, this is an incredibly unhelpful bit of fear mongering that seizes on the worst fears of an uninformed group and utilizes them in making a point, a point that fits in nicely alongside the general idea of what a t-nation reader wants to see and read. Most contemporary research indicates that insulin management is incredibly stable in the vast majority of people, so much so that all this talk of meal timings, insulin spikes after workouts, and insulin resistance following heavy bulks is based on pretty much nothing but the personal experiences of big ass dudes, dudes likely blessed or cursed with a genetic makeup that verifies the information they are presenting.
All in all, the fact of the matter is that someone who maintains a 50kg bodyweight is automatically in an entirely different place than someone even at 65kg, and the idea that they will necessarily gain fat as a result of a heavy bulk is based on nothing more than a cursory generalization. As a PT with a fairly well-read background in general health, my first inclination is that a 50kg male has an incredibly hot metabolism, so much so that I'd immediately throw most normal diet considerations out the window. I have seen 5'5 60kg Asian males eat over 8k calories in a day on only an hour and fifteen workout regiment gain no more than a pound or two a week in total, and while I'd certainly not equate a passerby with similar characteristics with them, it gives one an idea as to just how crazily different people can be. So when you read fitness articles that speak in absolutes like a Sith, take pause, a step back, and attempt to identify how you might differ from the case being put before you. I don't get what's so bad about the article. Yeah, everyone is different and the article even mentions that. My main takeaway from the article was: Find your maintenance, and then find the right surplus that works for you to gain weight at a healthy rate. Don't overeat, because getting the weight off again isn't always so simple, and don't under eat because then you'll get nowhere. Is there anything about those concepts that is wrong?
I think that farvacola's point (with which agree) is the pretensions by authors to prove general statements and "average" measurements as truths that affect everyone. One can see this mistake MOSTLY on the fitness industry, but it is prevalent an all areas of knowledges. Statistically, Averages with huge variance are close to worthless to the individual sample.
The 2nd pervasive mentality comes from treatin complex systems (living creatures, economies, societies, governments, etc) like they were machines. They are not.
Truth is, most of the knowledge available to us in dealing with complex systems comes from trial and error. Eat as much as you can, then adjust in the way, is the robust aproach to fit your goal. Stablishing base "energy levels" in an arbitrary way is an exercise in futlity.
So what the author does is a mix of both. This is no different than the wide spread usage of made up formulas in economics and finance that do not have any predictive power, or more general, the attempt from some people to design political and economical system from theories (socialism, marxism, applied keynesianism) as opossed to trial an error that has worked for the entire history of mankind ("free market"). (Largely off topic, dunno if this can go here lol)
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Thanks for the replies guys, even this little debate is actually really helpful.
I would've said I'm a hardgainer, so Igne was spot on what I'd say to this. Truth of the matter is, it's really hard for me to eat. When I'm a guest at someone and I eat there, they always say sth like "feel free to eat as much as you want, you don't have to hold back yourself" when I actually eat as much as I want in the speed I always do and feels comfortable. When I eat with my 4 years younger cousin he eats a whole sausage with 2 slices of bread, I eat a quarter with 3 slices (thought it might be important to mention that I eat much more bread for meat than others) and almost at the same speed.
Last week two fried chicken with rice were enough for me a whole day. To be fair, I was even struggling with the second one, and I'm not sure how would I've been able to eat more in this example.
Whether i should try to push over that limit is I guess still up for the debate, but I guess I should be at least full every time.
I'm pretty sure I'd go on the stronglift route, though I'm not 100% sure what it is exactly, but it's not the gym route, so this has to be mine, lol. I'll read the whole stronglift article, but now I'm on my way to the bath, so just some quick questions about it:
- how much "stuff" do I need for it? Some of my friends can lend me weighs, but if it requires a workpad and more advanced weighs then it would mean I'd be in the gym after all (or spend $$$)
- do I have to do the cardio training, like running?
- should I do sit-ups and such every day or it doesn't do a thing, except making my stomach hurt like a mofo next day?
And yeah, I'm a stickman, except my thighs. The worst - and my main priorities - are my arms and chest (ribs, ribs everywhere). And now you'll laugh, but I'm actually somewhat afraid of eating like a madman, because my stomach is somewhat medium-big sized for a skinny guy.
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On December 07 2013 05:28 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 04:56 farvacola wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That article is a nice example of everything wrong with internet exercise/diet advice, and here's why. It deals in maxims when maxims are simply not appropriate, and this is a problem that plagues the fitness industry. Folks like Shugart and Thibaudeau have one interest above all else, and that is the monetization/maintenance of the sanctity of their authority. Furthermore, the fitness industry is dominated by hardline, basic understandings of public policy, meaning that these folks are no experts when it comes to how one is to situate a particular piece of information given the scope and breadth of society and the people in it. Accordingly, "writers" like Shugart have a vested interest in pretending that lines are clear and cut, when in reality, the vast majority of people NEED to make personal adjustments insofar as diet and training regiment are concerned.
Let's consider the "shut up and squat" mentality. In general, it is a useful means of motivating wussie teenagers into putting hard work into an exercise that is difficult to do and difficult to maintain intensity in training with. BUT, contrary to popular opinion, not everyone should squat, and nor should they fuck themselves up trying. The human anatomy is full to the brim with joints/individual musculatures/angles that all exhibit enormous amounts of genetic differentiation, so much so that there most certainly exists a group of people who have hips too stiff and too wide/narrow or with too cramped an articulation space to ever squat with good effect. Anyone who works with clients over a period of time will come to see this; to pretend otherwise is mere ignorance or, more relevantly, has a maintained interest in streamlining the information with a particular goal in mind. Young men tend to "know what they want", and when it comes to looking for fitness advice, the sure sounding giant guy who expectedly shoves information down his audiences throat is going to develop a bigger fanbase than the more moderate guy saying "well guys, everyone is different, so let's get complicated.".
In thinking along those lines, it becomes readily apparent that the diet advice contained in the above t-nation article is so general it hurts, and in terms of providing an individual with the information they need to make an informed personal health/diet decision, it comes up entirely too short. I mean, come on, the dude lists insulin resistance as a big risk factor in heavy bulking. While I've no doubt that this advice comes from a man who has seen big ass dudes develop pre-diabetes as a result of their daily 3k gainer shakes in addition to bulking diet, this is an incredibly unhelpful bit of fear mongering that seizes on the worst fears of an uninformed group and utilizes them in making a point, a point that fits in nicely alongside the general idea of what a t-nation reader wants to see and read. Most contemporary research indicates that insulin management is incredibly stable in the vast majority of people, so much so that all this talk of meal timings, insulin spikes after workouts, and insulin resistance following heavy bulks is based on pretty much nothing but the personal experiences of big ass dudes, dudes likely blessed or cursed with a genetic makeup that verifies the information they are presenting.
All in all, the fact of the matter is that someone who maintains a 50kg bodyweight is automatically in an entirely different place than someone even at 65kg, and the idea that they will necessarily gain fat as a result of a heavy bulk is based on nothing more than a cursory generalization. As a PT with a fairly well-read background in general health, my first inclination is that a 50kg male has an incredibly hot metabolism, so much so that I'd immediately throw most normal diet considerations out the window. I have seen 5'5 60kg Asian males eat over 8k calories in a day on only an hour and fifteen workout regiment gain no more than a pound or two a week in total, and while I'd certainly not equate a passerby with similar characteristics with them, it gives one an idea as to just how crazily different people can be. So when you read fitness articles that speak in absolutes like a Sith, take pause, a step back, and attempt to identify how you might differ from the case being put before you. I don't get what's so bad about the article. Yeah, everyone is different and the article even mentions that. My main takeaway from the article was: Find your maintenance, and then find the right surplus that works for you to gain weight at a healthy rate. Don't overeat, because getting the weight off again isn't always so simple, and don't under eat because then you'll get nowhere. Is there anything about those concepts that is wrong?
Did you really need to read the article to know those things? And, more importantly, the article makes it very clear that it is telling you what overeating is and isn't, and therein lies the problem. Let's take a small snippet.
Now let's say Lean Larry has an identical twin named Gary, with identical training experience and goals. We're going to give him an extra 3,000 calories a day, a lot of it from junk food. In other words, Gary gets the dirty bulk. Is he going to add three times as much muscle as his brother?
No.
This is exactly what I mean when I say that articles like the above "give the audience what it wants" alongside directing them to a predetermined conclusion. Proponents of heavy bulking given certain circumstances are not going to suggest that one taking in an extra 3k cals is going to gain three times the muscle, only idiots would suggest that. Let's take the next bit.
Charles Poliquin puts it like this: "Bulking-up diet programs won't produce any more muscle growth than ingesting an ideal amount of nutrients. Sorry, but it's simply not possible to force additional muscle growth by overfeeding."
Thus, Gary builds the same amount of muscle as Larry, while adding a lot more fat. But there's even more bad news for Gary.
Given that the preceding snippet comes directly after that bit of "you're not going to gain three times muscle mass dummy" misdirection, it becomes clear that the authors are only interested in addressing a very narrow idea insofar as "dirty bulking" is concerned. The words "ideal" and "overfeeding" are left notably ambiguous; the reader is meant to fill in the details given what has been previously said. Only later does the article put down the 800-1000 cal limit on reasonable bulking (page 3 in fact), which is in and of itself mostly arbitrary (page views, page views!). Yes, generally, people who eat at around 500-1000 cals over maintenance will bulk ideally, but how useful is that to a 300 lbs easy gainer or a 140 lbs hard gainer, really? I mean, its a good start, but if your metabolism is burning like fire, trudging like molasses, or you have some sort of endocrine system kink, those numbers go right out the window. Personally, I can't eat 500 cals over maintenance healthily, even on a bulk; I put on fat incredibly fast and must eat very cleanly or with a noticeable deficit in order to maintain my physique. Conversely, a good friend of mine literally cannot get himself to weigh more than 170 lbs; believe me, he has tried and I've watched him.
At the end of the day, it honestly seems like the author, Chris Shugart, was more looking for a way to squeeze three pages worth of hits out of "don't eat tons of fast food like an idiot", and in the process, ends up making a lot of recommendations and statements that pidgeonhole the process of individually figuring out the best diet plan. Let's not forget the product placement at the end either. Fast food is even worse when you are eating it instead of the most recent iteration of Metabolic Drive® Complete 
Edit: And yes, what Gotunk describes is what I'd suggest as the best way for an intelligent, reasonable man with an ear to his body to find out his ideal exercise/diet regiment. Read and understand the general rules, then realize that they are merely lines in the sand, ripe for moving and distortion, and act accordingly.
Volband, I'm not that familiar with the Stronglifts program, so I'll let someone with more knowledge help you there. All I'll say is that any amount of running you do needs to be supplemented with additional calories given your small stature. If you are healthy cardio wise, which may not be the case, I'd say you can toss running aside entirely while you figure out how to gain weight.
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On December 07 2013 06:04 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 05:28 Najda wrote:On December 07 2013 04:56 farvacola wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That article is a nice example of everything wrong with internet exercise/diet advice, and here's why. It deals in maxims when maxims are simply not appropriate, and this is a problem that plagues the fitness industry. Folks like Shugart and Thibaudeau have one interest above all else, and that is the monetization/maintenance of the sanctity of their authority. Furthermore, the fitness industry is dominated by hardline, basic understandings of public policy, meaning that these folks are no experts when it comes to how one is to situate a particular piece of information given the scope and breadth of society and the people in it. Accordingly, "writers" like Shugart have a vested interest in pretending that lines are clear and cut, when in reality, the vast majority of people NEED to make personal adjustments insofar as diet and training regiment are concerned.
Let's consider the "shut up and squat" mentality. In general, it is a useful means of motivating wussie teenagers into putting hard work into an exercise that is difficult to do and difficult to maintain intensity in training with. BUT, contrary to popular opinion, not everyone should squat, and nor should they fuck themselves up trying. The human anatomy is full to the brim with joints/individual musculatures/angles that all exhibit enormous amounts of genetic differentiation, so much so that there most certainly exists a group of people who have hips too stiff and too wide/narrow or with too cramped an articulation space to ever squat with good effect. Anyone who works with clients over a period of time will come to see this; to pretend otherwise is mere ignorance or, more relevantly, has a maintained interest in streamlining the information with a particular goal in mind. Young men tend to "know what they want", and when it comes to looking for fitness advice, the sure sounding giant guy who expectedly shoves information down his audiences throat is going to develop a bigger fanbase than the more moderate guy saying "well guys, everyone is different, so let's get complicated.".
In thinking along those lines, it becomes readily apparent that the diet advice contained in the above t-nation article is so general it hurts, and in terms of providing an individual with the information they need to make an informed personal health/diet decision, it comes up entirely too short. I mean, come on, the dude lists insulin resistance as a big risk factor in heavy bulking. While I've no doubt that this advice comes from a man who has seen big ass dudes develop pre-diabetes as a result of their daily 3k gainer shakes in addition to bulking diet, this is an incredibly unhelpful bit of fear mongering that seizes on the worst fears of an uninformed group and utilizes them in making a point, a point that fits in nicely alongside the general idea of what a t-nation reader wants to see and read. Most contemporary research indicates that insulin management is incredibly stable in the vast majority of people, so much so that all this talk of meal timings, insulin spikes after workouts, and insulin resistance following heavy bulks is based on pretty much nothing but the personal experiences of big ass dudes, dudes likely blessed or cursed with a genetic makeup that verifies the information they are presenting.
All in all, the fact of the matter is that someone who maintains a 50kg bodyweight is automatically in an entirely different place than someone even at 65kg, and the idea that they will necessarily gain fat as a result of a heavy bulk is based on nothing more than a cursory generalization. As a PT with a fairly well-read background in general health, my first inclination is that a 50kg male has an incredibly hot metabolism, so much so that I'd immediately throw most normal diet considerations out the window. I have seen 5'5 60kg Asian males eat over 8k calories in a day on only an hour and fifteen workout regiment gain no more than a pound or two a week in total, and while I'd certainly not equate a passerby with similar characteristics with them, it gives one an idea as to just how crazily different people can be. So when you read fitness articles that speak in absolutes like a Sith, take pause, a step back, and attempt to identify how you might differ from the case being put before you. I don't get what's so bad about the article. Yeah, everyone is different and the article even mentions that. My main takeaway from the article was: Find your maintenance, and then find the right surplus that works for you to gain weight at a healthy rate. Don't overeat, because getting the weight off again isn't always so simple, and don't under eat because then you'll get nowhere. Is there anything about those concepts that is wrong? Did you really need to read the article to know those things? And, more importantly, the article makes it very clear that it is telling you what overeating is and isn't, and therein lies the problem. Let's take a small snippet.
A year ago, yes, I would have needed to read that article to know those things. I would not have considered overeating as a concept I should be worried about, and doing something like GOMAD (gallon of milk a day) as stronglifts suggests would have just resulted in me getting fat while expecting to gain 30 lbs of muscle in 1-2 months like it mentions. Articles like that, in my opinion, are a much bigger problem in the fitness industry.
The basics have to be defined. Before Newton gave a name to gravity, people still knew things fell down when you dropped them, and yet that is what he is famous for. (Although I'm aware comparing this to Newton's work offends the influence of his accomplishments). That said, it could have been done in a much better way if spreading the information was their main agenda, and yes, I agree with you that they clearly are looking for the max views etc.
On December 07 2013 05:57 Volband wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'd go on the stronglift route, though I'm not 100% sure what it is exactly, but it's not the gym route, so this has to be mine, lol. I'll read the whole stronglift article, but now I'm on my way to the bath, so just some quick questions about it:
- how much "stuff" do I need for it? Some of my friends can lend me weighs, but if it requires a workpad and more advanced weighs then it would mean I'd be in the gym after all (or spend $$$)
- do I have to do the cardio training, like running?
- should I do sit-ups and such every day or it doesn't do a thing, except making my stomach hurt like a mofo next day
You need a barbell, some weights, a squat rack/power rack, and a bench. If bodyweight training appeals to you more, you can check out the bodyweight training thread. It's possible to do it without any equipment, but ideally you'd still want at least a pull up bar and/or a set of gymast rings.
In regards to ab-work and cardio, I've heard it said a few places that stronglifts under-emphasizes upperbody work and I have seen this workout program as an improved version, but I don't really know myself and would like to hear other people's input.
I had/have a similar problem in regard to getting full quick, and I get around it by eating a number of smaller 500-800 calorie meals per day with a slightly bigger one at the end of the day. I still do have to have to eat beyond the point of being merely content though.
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On December 07 2013 06:45 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 06:04 farvacola wrote:On December 07 2013 05:28 Najda wrote:On December 07 2013 04:56 farvacola wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That article is a nice example of everything wrong with internet exercise/diet advice, and here's why. It deals in maxims when maxims are simply not appropriate, and this is a problem that plagues the fitness industry. Folks like Shugart and Thibaudeau have one interest above all else, and that is the monetization/maintenance of the sanctity of their authority. Furthermore, the fitness industry is dominated by hardline, basic understandings of public policy, meaning that these folks are no experts when it comes to how one is to situate a particular piece of information given the scope and breadth of society and the people in it. Accordingly, "writers" like Shugart have a vested interest in pretending that lines are clear and cut, when in reality, the vast majority of people NEED to make personal adjustments insofar as diet and training regiment are concerned.
Let's consider the "shut up and squat" mentality. In general, it is a useful means of motivating wussie teenagers into putting hard work into an exercise that is difficult to do and difficult to maintain intensity in training with. BUT, contrary to popular opinion, not everyone should squat, and nor should they fuck themselves up trying. The human anatomy is full to the brim with joints/individual musculatures/angles that all exhibit enormous amounts of genetic differentiation, so much so that there most certainly exists a group of people who have hips too stiff and too wide/narrow or with too cramped an articulation space to ever squat with good effect. Anyone who works with clients over a period of time will come to see this; to pretend otherwise is mere ignorance or, more relevantly, has a maintained interest in streamlining the information with a particular goal in mind. Young men tend to "know what they want", and when it comes to looking for fitness advice, the sure sounding giant guy who expectedly shoves information down his audiences throat is going to develop a bigger fanbase than the more moderate guy saying "well guys, everyone is different, so let's get complicated.".
In thinking along those lines, it becomes readily apparent that the diet advice contained in the above t-nation article is so general it hurts, and in terms of providing an individual with the information they need to make an informed personal health/diet decision, it comes up entirely too short. I mean, come on, the dude lists insulin resistance as a big risk factor in heavy bulking. While I've no doubt that this advice comes from a man who has seen big ass dudes develop pre-diabetes as a result of their daily 3k gainer shakes in addition to bulking diet, this is an incredibly unhelpful bit of fear mongering that seizes on the worst fears of an uninformed group and utilizes them in making a point, a point that fits in nicely alongside the general idea of what a t-nation reader wants to see and read. Most contemporary research indicates that insulin management is incredibly stable in the vast majority of people, so much so that all this talk of meal timings, insulin spikes after workouts, and insulin resistance following heavy bulks is based on pretty much nothing but the personal experiences of big ass dudes, dudes likely blessed or cursed with a genetic makeup that verifies the information they are presenting.
All in all, the fact of the matter is that someone who maintains a 50kg bodyweight is automatically in an entirely different place than someone even at 65kg, and the idea that they will necessarily gain fat as a result of a heavy bulk is based on nothing more than a cursory generalization. As a PT with a fairly well-read background in general health, my first inclination is that a 50kg male has an incredibly hot metabolism, so much so that I'd immediately throw most normal diet considerations out the window. I have seen 5'5 60kg Asian males eat over 8k calories in a day on only an hour and fifteen workout regiment gain no more than a pound or two a week in total, and while I'd certainly not equate a passerby with similar characteristics with them, it gives one an idea as to just how crazily different people can be. So when you read fitness articles that speak in absolutes like a Sith, take pause, a step back, and attempt to identify how you might differ from the case being put before you. I don't get what's so bad about the article. Yeah, everyone is different and the article even mentions that. My main takeaway from the article was: Find your maintenance, and then find the right surplus that works for you to gain weight at a healthy rate. Don't overeat, because getting the weight off again isn't always so simple, and don't under eat because then you'll get nowhere. Is there anything about those concepts that is wrong? Did you really need to read the article to know those things? And, more importantly, the article makes it very clear that it is telling you what overeating is and isn't, and therein lies the problem. Let's take a small snippet. A year ago, yes, I would have needed to read that article to know those things. I would not have considered overeating as a concept I should be worried about, and doing something like GOMAD (gallon of milk a day) as stronglifts suggests would have just resulted in me getting fat while expecting to gain 30 lbs of muscle in 1-2 months like it mentions. Articles like that, in my opinion, are a much bigger problem in the fitness industry. The basics have to be defined. Before Newton gave a name to gravity, people still knew things fell down when you dropped them, and yet that is what he is famous for. (Although I'm aware comparing this to Newton's work offends the influence of his accomplishments). That said, it could have been done in a much better way if spreading the information was their main agenda, and yes, I agree with you that they clearly are looking for the max views etc. Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 05:57 Volband wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'd go on the stronglift route, though I'm not 100% sure what it is exactly, but it's not the gym route, so this has to be mine, lol. I'll read the whole stronglift article, but now I'm on my way to the bath, so just some quick questions about it:
- how much "stuff" do I need for it? Some of my friends can lend me weighs, but if it requires a workpad and more advanced weighs then it would mean I'd be in the gym after all (or spend $$$)
- do I have to do the cardio training, like running?
- should I do sit-ups and such every day or it doesn't do a thing, except making my stomach hurt like a mofo next day You need a barbell, some weights, a squat rack/power rack, and a bench. If bodyweight training appeals to you more, you can check out the bodyweight training thread. It's possible to do it without any equipment, but ideally you'd still want at least a pull up bar and/or a set of gymast rings. In regards to ab-work and cardio, I've heard it said a few places that stronglifts under-emphasizes upperbody work and I have seen this workout program as an improved version, but I don't really know myself and would like to hear other people's input. I had/have a similar problem in regard to getting full quick, and I get around it by eating a number of smaller 500-800 calorie meals per day with a slightly bigger one at the end of the day. I still do have to have to eat beyond the point of being merely content though.
The point is that the basics can be defined without them being rhetorically pointed towards a very narrow point of view insofar as proper, individual diet/exercise regiment is concerned. You do not need an article tailored towards page views and supplement hocking to tell you the basics.
All you need is TLHF
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On December 07 2013 05:57 Volband wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys, even this little debate is actually really helpful.
I would've said I'm a hardgainer, so Igne was spot on what I'd say to this. Truth of the matter is, it's really hard for me to eat. When I'm a guest at someone and I eat there, they always say sth like "feel free to eat as much as you want, you don't have to hold back yourself" when I actually eat as much as I want in the speed I always do and feels comfortable. When I eat with my 4 years younger cousin he eats a whole sausage with 2 slices of bread, I eat a quarter with 3 slices (thought it might be important to mention that I eat much more bread for meat than others) and almost at the same speed.
Last week two fried chicken with rice were enough for me a whole day. To be fair, I was even struggling with the second one, and I'm not sure how would I've been able to eat more in this example.
Whether i should try to push over that limit is I guess still up for the debate, but I guess I should be at least full every time.
I'm pretty sure I'd go on the stronglift route, though I'm not 100% sure what it is exactly, but it's not the gym route, so this has to be mine, lol. I'll read the whole stronglift article, but now I'm on my way to the bath, so just some quick questions about it:
- how much "stuff" do I need for it? Some of my friends can lend me weighs, but if it requires a workpad and more advanced weighs then it would mean I'd be in the gym after all (or spend $$$)
- do I have to do the cardio training, like running?
- should I do sit-ups and such every day or it doesn't do a thing, except making my stomach hurt like a mofo next day?
And yeah, I'm a stickman, except my thighs. The worst - and my main priorities - are my arms and chest (ribs, ribs everywhere). And now you'll laugh, but I'm actually somewhat afraid of eating like a madman, because my stomach is somewhat medium-big sized for a skinny guy.
As I'm reading the 2nd half of this after the 1st half, all I'm thinking is you really need to sort out how you're gonna handle eating/nutrition before you worry too much about precisely what exercises you're gonna be doing :x
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On December 07 2013 08:06 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 05:57 Volband wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys, even this little debate is actually really helpful.
I would've said I'm a hardgainer, so Igne was spot on what I'd say to this. Truth of the matter is, it's really hard for me to eat. When I'm a guest at someone and I eat there, they always say sth like "feel free to eat as much as you want, you don't have to hold back yourself" when I actually eat as much as I want in the speed I always do and feels comfortable. When I eat with my 4 years younger cousin he eats a whole sausage with 2 slices of bread, I eat a quarter with 3 slices (thought it might be important to mention that I eat much more bread for meat than others) and almost at the same speed.
Last week two fried chicken with rice were enough for me a whole day. To be fair, I was even struggling with the second one, and I'm not sure how would I've been able to eat more in this example.
Whether i should try to push over that limit is I guess still up for the debate, but I guess I should be at least full every time.
I'm pretty sure I'd go on the stronglift route, though I'm not 100% sure what it is exactly, but it's not the gym route, so this has to be mine, lol. I'll read the whole stronglift article, but now I'm on my way to the bath, so just some quick questions about it:
- how much "stuff" do I need for it? Some of my friends can lend me weighs, but if it requires a workpad and more advanced weighs then it would mean I'd be in the gym after all (or spend $$$)
- do I have to do the cardio training, like running?
- should I do sit-ups and such every day or it doesn't do a thing, except making my stomach hurt like a mofo next day?
And yeah, I'm a stickman, except my thighs. The worst - and my main priorities - are my arms and chest (ribs, ribs everywhere). And now you'll laugh, but I'm actually somewhat afraid of eating like a madman, because my stomach is somewhat medium-big sized for a skinny guy. As I'm reading the 2nd half of this after the 1st half, all I'm thinking is you really need to sort out how you're gonna handle eating/nutrition before you worry too much about precisely what exercises you're gonna be doing :x
I'm stuffing ham into my mouth now as we speak, and i'm not sure if i'm tearing up because of the onion, or because my body is crying.D I'm even doing this with a sore throat, when I usually absolutely can't eat anything.
It's a first step, right??
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On December 07 2013 08:14 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 08:06 marvellosity wrote:On December 07 2013 05:57 Volband wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys, even this little debate is actually really helpful.
I would've said I'm a hardgainer, so Igne was spot on what I'd say to this. Truth of the matter is, it's really hard for me to eat. When I'm a guest at someone and I eat there, they always say sth like "feel free to eat as much as you want, you don't have to hold back yourself" when I actually eat as much as I want in the speed I always do and feels comfortable. When I eat with my 4 years younger cousin he eats a whole sausage with 2 slices of bread, I eat a quarter with 3 slices (thought it might be important to mention that I eat much more bread for meat than others) and almost at the same speed.
Last week two fried chicken with rice were enough for me a whole day. To be fair, I was even struggling with the second one, and I'm not sure how would I've been able to eat more in this example.
Whether i should try to push over that limit is I guess still up for the debate, but I guess I should be at least full every time.
I'm pretty sure I'd go on the stronglift route, though I'm not 100% sure what it is exactly, but it's not the gym route, so this has to be mine, lol. I'll read the whole stronglift article, but now I'm on my way to the bath, so just some quick questions about it:
- how much "stuff" do I need for it? Some of my friends can lend me weighs, but if it requires a workpad and more advanced weighs then it would mean I'd be in the gym after all (or spend $$$)
- do I have to do the cardio training, like running?
- should I do sit-ups and such every day or it doesn't do a thing, except making my stomach hurt like a mofo next day?
And yeah, I'm a stickman, except my thighs. The worst - and my main priorities - are my arms and chest (ribs, ribs everywhere). And now you'll laugh, but I'm actually somewhat afraid of eating like a madman, because my stomach is somewhat medium-big sized for a skinny guy. As I'm reading the 2nd half of this after the 1st half, all I'm thinking is you really need to sort out how you're gonna handle eating/nutrition before you worry too much about precisely what exercises you're gonna be doing :x I'm stuffing ham into my mouth now as we speak, and i'm not sure if i'm tearing up because of the onion, or because my body is crying.D I'm even doing this with a sore throat, when I usually absolutely can't eat anything. It's a first step, right??
For someone like you I would say you should be eating all day. Anything you can stomach that is real food. I call it "grazing."Just eat all day to satiety, not overfull, and stay topped off. Need to be eating about a lb of meat per day, any type. If you like butter or olive oil or coconut oil go crazy with it.
As for your exercise program, the truth is you should just get into a gym. If you are ever going to make this part of your life you will eventually get into a gym and regret the time you wasted outside of it.
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On December 07 2013 09:25 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 08:14 Volband wrote:On December 07 2013 08:06 marvellosity wrote:On December 07 2013 05:57 Volband wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys, even this little debate is actually really helpful.
I would've said I'm a hardgainer, so Igne was spot on what I'd say to this. Truth of the matter is, it's really hard for me to eat. When I'm a guest at someone and I eat there, they always say sth like "feel free to eat as much as you want, you don't have to hold back yourself" when I actually eat as much as I want in the speed I always do and feels comfortable. When I eat with my 4 years younger cousin he eats a whole sausage with 2 slices of bread, I eat a quarter with 3 slices (thought it might be important to mention that I eat much more bread for meat than others) and almost at the same speed.
Last week two fried chicken with rice were enough for me a whole day. To be fair, I was even struggling with the second one, and I'm not sure how would I've been able to eat more in this example.
Whether i should try to push over that limit is I guess still up for the debate, but I guess I should be at least full every time.
I'm pretty sure I'd go on the stronglift route, though I'm not 100% sure what it is exactly, but it's not the gym route, so this has to be mine, lol. I'll read the whole stronglift article, but now I'm on my way to the bath, so just some quick questions about it:
- how much "stuff" do I need for it? Some of my friends can lend me weighs, but if it requires a workpad and more advanced weighs then it would mean I'd be in the gym after all (or spend $$$)
- do I have to do the cardio training, like running?
- should I do sit-ups and such every day or it doesn't do a thing, except making my stomach hurt like a mofo next day?
And yeah, I'm a stickman, except my thighs. The worst - and my main priorities - are my arms and chest (ribs, ribs everywhere). And now you'll laugh, but I'm actually somewhat afraid of eating like a madman, because my stomach is somewhat medium-big sized for a skinny guy. As I'm reading the 2nd half of this after the 1st half, all I'm thinking is you really need to sort out how you're gonna handle eating/nutrition before you worry too much about precisely what exercises you're gonna be doing :x I'm stuffing ham into my mouth now as we speak, and i'm not sure if i'm tearing up because of the onion, or because my body is crying.D I'm even doing this with a sore throat, when I usually absolutely can't eat anything. It's a first step, right?? For someone like you I would say you should be eating all day. Anything you can stomach that is real food. I call it "grazing."Just eat all day to satiety, not overfull, and stay topped off. Need to be eating about a lb of meat per day, any type. If you like butter or olive oil or coconut oil go crazy with it. As for your exercise program, the truth is you should just get into a gym. If you are ever going to make this part of your life you will eventually get into a gym and regret the time you wasted outside of it.
I'm trying to delay it as much as possible, because I know myself, and I would just wander around doing nothing. I'd feel stressed while using a work-out tool with /10 the weight others use, and it'd also make me uneasy. I know if I'm serious in getting a decent body I'll have to do it eventually, but I am so far behind, I hope I can make the first steps by myself without going there.
tl;dr : scared as hell from the gym, no confidence
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On December 07 2013 09:56 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 09:25 IgnE wrote:On December 07 2013 08:14 Volband wrote:On December 07 2013 08:06 marvellosity wrote:On December 07 2013 05:57 Volband wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys, even this little debate is actually really helpful.
I would've said I'm a hardgainer, so Igne was spot on what I'd say to this. Truth of the matter is, it's really hard for me to eat. When I'm a guest at someone and I eat there, they always say sth like "feel free to eat as much as you want, you don't have to hold back yourself" when I actually eat as much as I want in the speed I always do and feels comfortable. When I eat with my 4 years younger cousin he eats a whole sausage with 2 slices of bread, I eat a quarter with 3 slices (thought it might be important to mention that I eat much more bread for meat than others) and almost at the same speed.
Last week two fried chicken with rice were enough for me a whole day. To be fair, I was even struggling with the second one, and I'm not sure how would I've been able to eat more in this example.
Whether i should try to push over that limit is I guess still up for the debate, but I guess I should be at least full every time.
I'm pretty sure I'd go on the stronglift route, though I'm not 100% sure what it is exactly, but it's not the gym route, so this has to be mine, lol. I'll read the whole stronglift article, but now I'm on my way to the bath, so just some quick questions about it:
- how much "stuff" do I need for it? Some of my friends can lend me weighs, but if it requires a workpad and more advanced weighs then it would mean I'd be in the gym after all (or spend $$$)
- do I have to do the cardio training, like running?
- should I do sit-ups and such every day or it doesn't do a thing, except making my stomach hurt like a mofo next day?
And yeah, I'm a stickman, except my thighs. The worst - and my main priorities - are my arms and chest (ribs, ribs everywhere). And now you'll laugh, but I'm actually somewhat afraid of eating like a madman, because my stomach is somewhat medium-big sized for a skinny guy. As I'm reading the 2nd half of this after the 1st half, all I'm thinking is you really need to sort out how you're gonna handle eating/nutrition before you worry too much about precisely what exercises you're gonna be doing :x I'm stuffing ham into my mouth now as we speak, and i'm not sure if i'm tearing up because of the onion, or because my body is crying.D I'm even doing this with a sore throat, when I usually absolutely can't eat anything. It's a first step, right?? For someone like you I would say you should be eating all day. Anything you can stomach that is real food. I call it "grazing."Just eat all day to satiety, not overfull, and stay topped off. Need to be eating about a lb of meat per day, any type. If you like butter or olive oil or coconut oil go crazy with it. As for your exercise program, the truth is you should just get into a gym. If you are ever going to make this part of your life you will eventually get into a gym and regret the time you wasted outside of it. I'm trying to delay it as much as possible, because I know myself, and I would just wander around doing nothing. I'd feel stressed while using a work-out tool with /10 the weight others use, and it'd also make me uneasy. I know if I'm serious in getting a decent body I'll have to do it eventually, but I am so far behind, I hope I can make the first steps by myself without going there. tl;dr : scared as hell from the gym, no confidence
I'd really advise just biting the bullet and doing it. Maybe you can find a gym partner? Some of my best friends started out as gym partners. Also realize that 90% of people in the gym are clueless. The ones who aren't tend to be very willing to over advice/assistance to new people. Really.
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