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I like the approach of starting it out relaxed, then if you feel good just run smooth in the middle and if your feeling strong pick it up some in the last few miles. It doesn't have to be a brutal workout, but it can be an honest effort provided you feel grooved in. If you feel sluggish/tired/etc. then just using it for time on your feet/aerobic stress at a relaxed pace is good.
Nice, I like that. Basically what I was going for today except I think it may have been pushed a tad too hard near the end.
You did a tempo at 7:09 pace and a long run at 7:16. I can't imagine how this isn't pushing. Maybe your tempo was just a terrible day like you said and your capable of running them alot faster. A good tempo run can give a pretty good idea about fitness too, so it will be interesting to see how that stacks up when you have a better tempo day.
When I was running with my friend nearly a month ago now, we 10 minute tempos at 6:20 and 6:00 paces a week apart. Granted these were probably more time trialish than tempo (especially the 6 flat), but I still think my short tempo runs should be 6:30 at least. I'm going to take it really easy before my tempo run this week (or just do it a day earlier if I feel good).
We'll know for sure in a month or two. One week doesn't tell us much as anyone can go out and run a hard week and feel fine, if it keeps holding up over the next few weeks with you feeling recovered and fresh most of the time then you'll likely be looking good. Since your mileage isn't too high there is a good chance this training will work out and you'll be in good shape and ready to go come fall. 30-40mpw of moderate-high intensity training is pretty common in HS and plenty of kids handle it just fine.
Yeah, that's basically what I did in high school, which is one of the reasons super easy runs are a new idea to me. I may have to ease back a bit as I add more miles.
Basically I'm trying to advocate for what is likely to make one the best runner they can be several years down the road as opposed to in the next 6 months. If we want to make a runner as good as possible in the next 6 months the training would be MUCH different than the training suggested for someone who wants to reach his potential over the course of the next 5-10 years.
Yes, Lagat, Rupp and the Oregon guys do 5:30 mile pace on aerobic runs NOWADAYS but the vast majority of their lifetime miles are easy pace miles. They switched slowly over the years and once your body is ready you can do it. But that doesnt mean 1 or 2 years of some running. For newer runners the rule is the following: increase mileage every season by an 15% average. The best way to do this is to increase the amount of running in base period without adding much intensity (ofcourse some intensity is needed in base, but not that much, xc and hills is the way to go). Once the season is about to start you reduce miles by some percentage and add more intensity. So at the end of this season You averaged some more miles than at the end of the last season. Repeat it for 5-6 years till youre at your peak. Then worry about fastening easy runs or wonder how fast you became without even worrying about them.
Thanks for your post and all the information. It's true I'm not thinking that farther ahead than maybe a year. I'd definitely like to peak around November - and I don't see why I can't "reset" after that and take it easy for a few weeks before starting up training again for track events in the spring. Isn't training hard and then taking a break between seasons what most collegiate athletes do? I think this is also sustainable, but clearly there are benefits to thinking more long term.
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Does anyone know anything about competitive trail running?
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When I was running with my friend nearly a month ago now, we 10 minute tempos at 6:20 and 6:00 paces a week apart. Granted these were probably more time trialish than tempo (especially the 6 flat), but I still think my short tempo runs should be 6:30 at least. I'm going to take it really easy before my tempo run this week (or just do it a day earlier if I feel good).
10 minutes is too short.
A tempo run needs to be at least 20 minutes in length to derive good benefits in raising AnT. You can do alot with different types of "tempo" runs (tempo/AnT are terms that get used in many different ways). There is the "standard" tempo run of 20 minutes at around hour race pace, but they can be anything from that up to 7-10 miles at around MP. As tempo's get longer the pace should get marginally slower (in other words a 40 minute tempo should be maybe 10-15s a mile slower than that "comfortably hard" hour race pace, and tempos around an hour are usually right at MP.
I'd definitely like to peak around November - and I don't see why I can't "reset" after that and take it easy for a few weeks before starting up training again for track events in the spring. Isn't training hard and then taking a break between seasons what most collegiate athletes do? I
No, there isn't really anything wrong with that and nothing should stop you from doing that. Yes that's essentially what collegiate athletes do. There are generally 2-3 particularly hard months leading up to the goal races (NCAA's typically) and then it's common to take a few weeks with little or no running. However, surrounding/preceding those there are usually several months of base training that is run relatively easy, with mostly aerobic runs and maybe some tempos and light "tempo intervals" and/or "runs to the barn" if the runner is feeling good toward the end of the run.
It should be noted that when workout season starts the focus is obviously primarily on those workouts and thus most of the other days become anywhere from easy to super easy depending on the athlete and individual preference/ability/experience/etc.
I think this is also sustainable, but clearly there are benefits to thinking more long term.
Sustainable at 40mpw? If your somewhat durable then yea there is a good chance it will be, and an even better chance if you are smart about it listening to your body.
If we are talking 70mpw, or god forbid 100+ mpw then no it almost certainly isn't. It's probably not sustainable either season in/season out if you also run "hard" easy runs while doing workouts. The tricky thing is that sometimes this kind of stuff doesn't bite you right away and you can go a couple months making progress or even have an amazing season only to have disaster strike a little later down the road.
As far as the long term thinking I think the biggest concern for any runner wanting to be as good as possible is to get as aerobically strong as possible, and the data supports me here. If you look at the 80's and 90's American distance running was terrible. Occasional a decent runner or two succeeded despite the system but overall we were weak and had no depth. The reason? Low mileage, high-intensity was "in". Works great for crash training sometimes but doesn't produce good runners over the long term as it sacrifices aerobic development and also is a bit of a "meat-grinder" for runners that can't handle tons of high intensity work. Then when the internet came about and people got educated and returned to the high-mileage ways of Lydiard and Co in the 60's/70's we have since returned to being very strong and deep.
The bottom line is aerobic development is #1 priority as by far the most improvement can be made here AND it can continue for much longer than intense interval training. Most of the anerobic stuff can be maxed out in 8-12 weeks and very little improvement can be made in terms of anerobic capacity. So the question then becomes how best to develop that?
Obviously, there are varying ideas and methodologies about how best to accomplish this but I really like the approach advocated by John Kellog. If you have some time and want to read some REALLY good stuff about training I would highly recommend taking a look at the thread I will link at the bottom. CarolinaRunner posts are the ones from JK.
JK Training Wisdom
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Tempo runs can be shorter than than 20 minutes if you do it in intervals. Something like 4-6 mile repeats at tempo pace with 1 min rest is a common way. Also, when doing tempo runs the pace/effort/heart rate matters. It can be a 1 mile interval tempo or a 5 mile tempo but it all can be the same pace or target heart rate depending on your training plan or philosophy. I used mostly all Jack Daniels' stuff when I was in my best running shape.
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On June 18 2012 13:18 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Tempo runs can be shorter than than 20 minutes if you do it in intervals. Something like 4-6 mile repeats at tempo pace with 1 min rest is a common way. Also, when doing tempo runs the pace/effort/heart rate matters. It can be a 1 mile interval tempo or a 5 mile tempo but it all can be the same pace or target heart rate depending on your training plan or philosophy. I used mostly all Jack Daniels' stuff when I was in my best running shape.
Yea, thanks for correcting me on that. In fact, this approach is nice to mix in because it actually allows for a greater time to be spent at those more intense paces.
As far as your trail running, can't say I know tons but what sort of info where you looking for?
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On June 18 2012 12:02 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Does anyone know anything about competitive trail running?
What kind of knowledge do you look for? Regarding training and stuff i can tell you the following. I know 2 of the top european trail runners and they are basically runners/triathletes who didnt make the cut into the professional road/track racing scene. They ran 2:20 Marathons, 30-31 minute 10ks and are just using their talent for something different. Special training isnt really required. Do some more miles in the forest or on dirt trails rather than on the streets, some more hills and thats it. Things that might help you aswell are Mountain Running races and some guys benefited from some kind of parcours training you do in the army. Like climbing on ropes, obstacles and stuff.
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The easy day pace discussions always spark my interest. Whenever I run by myself I always have a bad habit of killing my easy days.
Hit 61 miles last week with 3 days of lifting. Hopefully can maintain my lifting routine throughout the summer as I build up to 80-90 mpw. Hoping to hit 65 miles this week with a long run of around 11-12 miles. Probably 4 days with double runs.
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On June 19 2012 04:21 BilltownRunner wrote:
The easy day pace discussions always spark my interest. Whenever I run by myself I always have a bad habit of killing my easy days.
Hit 61 miles last week with 3 days of lifting. Hopefully can maintain my lifting routine throughout the summer as I build up to 80-90 mpw. Hoping to hit 65 miles this week with a long run of around 11-12 miles. Probably 4 days with double runs.
Interesting. I'm the opposite, and tend to take my easy days pretty relaxed by myself but if I am with someone else that's reasonable fast I'll suddenly realize I'm clippin off low 7's. Always feels a little easier at the same pace with someone else for me to.
What's killing your easy days for you? Like sub 6:30 pace?
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I have been lurking this thread pretty hard, but being an uneducated european, the usage of miles per week drives me insane and made me do a lot of calculating in my head. So I decided to write myself a little excel-file to take care of that problem. And once I was on it, I added a little functionality to it.
running speed converter
It has two tables. One is just a simple converter:
mile to km
km to mile
feet to meter
yard to meter
Nothing more to it, basically useful if you are lazy.
In the second one you have to enter the time and distance of your run, and you'll get the following calculations:
time per km
km/ hour
time per mile
miles/ hour
time per 400m (one lap on a track)
To add more runs, just copy one complete line and paste it below the already existing runs. you have to enter the distance in meters, but you can easily convert yard/ feet to meters in the converter table. I don't really know what is used in the US.
Could very well be that for this purpose there is much better stuff out there on some running sites, I didn't look around much. But since I already made it I might as well share it. And if at least one of you guys finds this little tool useful, I have done my good deed for today.
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On June 21 2012 17:17 Malinor wrote:I have been lurking this thread pretty hard, but being an uneducated european, the usage of miles per week drives me insane and made me do a lot of calculating in my head. So I decided to write myself a little excel-file to take care of that problem. And once I was on it, I added a little functionality to it. running speed converterIt has two tables. One is just a simple converter: mile to km
km to mile
feet to meter
yard to meter
Nothing more to it, basically useful if you are lazy. In the second one you have to enter the time and distance of your run, and you'll get the following calculations: time per km
km/ hour
time per mile
miles/ hour
time per 400m (one lap on a track)
To add more runs, just copy one complete line and paste it below the already existing runs. you have to enter the distance in meters, but you can easily convert yard/ feet to meters in the converter table. I don't really know what is used in the US. Could very well be that for this purpose there is much better stuff out there on some running sites, I didn't look around much. But since I already made it I might as well share it. And if at least one of you guys finds this little tool useful, I have done my good deed for today.
Sweet man! Thanks for that addition and I'll throw it into the OP.
I have been lurking this thread pretty hard, but being an uneducated european, the usage of miles per week drives me insane and made me do a lot of calculating in my head.
No way man...you guys have it right. SI system so much better than our silly system of units we use especially for conversions and fun stuff like that. If only people here would see the light and start switching...
On second note your post in general reminds me I should remember to talk in terms of both, I have no problem using SI but because of living in the US I have the bad habit of just assuming everyone I'm talking to online is also US.
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if u write about barman and arne gabius I am very proud to live in tübingen in germany where both of these guys life...
just met arne gabius monday, i was running and he came from behind and passed me... at least i had the time to congratulate him for his olympia start place and his german titel for 5km
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I would sell my soul for that kind of speed T_T
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On June 25 2012 11:38 decafchicken wrote:I would sell my soul for that kind of speed T_T
Yea that's pretty darn absurd how those guys can move. Elite runners in general just absolutely blow my mind with the things they are capable of.
I mean top sprinters averaging 23 mph for 200m hitting top speeds of 26-27mph
Milers cruising 4 laps at 14 seconds per 100m
5k runners doing 61-62 second laps (4:05 min/mile)
Marathoners basically being able to "aggressively jog" at 4:45 min/miles
Unreal.
I'm not sure I'll ever stop being amazed by what some people are capable of.
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England2662 Posts
So I've been running for about 12 weeks now and I'm currently running 4 miles in about 34~ minutes three times a week. I don't really know what to do now though. I keep adding a little bit more to my running route every week but I'm wondering if that's the best tactic or not. I can add another run day easily but doing more than four times a week won't work out for me right now. What's my best option?
I don't really have a general goal besides wanting to be able to run further and run faster. I'm enjoying running so I just want to be able to do it more.
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On June 26 2012 01:28 Flicky wrote:
So I've been running for about 12 weeks now and I'm currently running 4 miles in about 34~ minutes three times a week. I don't really know what to do now though. I keep adding a little bit more to my running route every week but I'm wondering if that's the best tactic or not. I can add another run day easily but doing more than four times a week won't work out for me right now. What's my best option?
I don't really have a general goal besides wanting to be able to run further and run faster. I'm enjoying running so I just want to be able to do it more.
Well, for running further you can pretty much just do that and run further, gradually adding on to your days until your running as much as you want to be. Rough estimate would be you could add about a mile a day to each every week, but that's a loose guideline. Some people can add way faster, others have to add slower.
Now if the goal is to get faster your probably to a point where you can start working in some faster, but still aerobic, training. The simplest form is just to go out for a run, start slower than usual, and if you feel great you can start letting it rip in the second half. Don't go to the point where it hurts bad or your tying up but you can run a real solid pace where you feel strong and smooth.
Another thing you can add is a planned tempo run, which in it's simplest for is basically a 20-25 min run at a strong, comfortably hard pace. What I mean by that is it's a pace where you would be happy to slow down but at the same time you aren't killing yourself or going to the hurt zone to maintain. It should feel strong and like your "full of run". If your into paces and/or HR (these really should be run by feel though) it corresponds to roughly 5K race pace + 25-30 sec/mile (a.k.a. one hour race pace) and roughly 80-90% of max HR.
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Howdy dudes, I posted this in the injury thread, reposting it here so I can get some feed back from other runners who might have run into this as well:
My feets hurt!!!
I've been running for years and have always had the occasional odd ache and pain here and there and generally just ignored them and they always went away. I basically stopped running in september last year and started again in april, my first few runs went fine, then one day walking around at lunch time my foot just started hurting like crazy, stopped running for 2 weeks and limped around. Eventually it went away then I got the exact same pain in my other foot. I didn't feel like taking another 2 weeks off so I'm just toughing it out. The odd thing is my feet feel fine when I run, then one will ache like crazy from just walking. This is the spot where my foot aches:
http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2010/10/a-firm-foundation-focusing-on-the-feet/
Scroll way down to the most frequent area of pain diagram, my pain is in the rarest %5 spot, wtf? Outside edge middle of my foot. I've never had an ache there before, why now? I know I had a long break, but still, never ever had something hurt this much before, and I've been running most of my adult life. My left foot feels perfect now, right foot is still tender, but getting better so I'm not worried about it, just wondering if anyone else encountered something funky like this before.
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You prolly just did too much training.
Same thing of pain happened to me after switching from support/control shoes to neutral trainers/lightweight trainers. Your feet get stressed in a new way. Its most likely just an irritation in the tendons or muscles. Do some short and slow runs, no tempo till its gone.
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Maybe try massaging your feet after runs & throughout the day (if possible) if it just feels tender. If it's a burning sensation, try ice.
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Been icing it, but that doesn't seem to do anything. It's not swollen, it doesn't hurt to touch, forcing pressure onto my arch from casual walking is what does it. I've been using the same pair of trail shoes for 3 years now, ya the padding is probably worn but shoes/padding//all that crap has never had an effect on me; I run in walking sneakers with zero padding all the time just fine years past. I'm going to chalk this one off to running too hard early on, next time I have a 6 month break I won't jump right into my old routine.
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EPT
