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getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On June 12 2012 12:21 L_Master wrote: Hmm. Something is weird about the link, it takes me to a log with no data that displays as my own. So either your link is bad or maybe you have some odd privacy settings going on. Whoops. It should be good now | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
I was pushing a bit, but the pace ended up being around what I wanted. Hopefully tomorrow's run is around the same time. This is the sort of stuff that can be VERY worrisome. You said the pace ended up "being what you wanted", but the run is classified as an easy run. Why on earth do you want a certain pace then? Pace doesn't matter on easy runs, you get no extra benefit running 7:30 pace as opposed to 8:30 pace, or at least the benefit is negligible at best. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose by going out and training too hard on your easy runs. Even if your in 18:00 5K shape and 30:00 8k shape 7:20 pace is not easy unless it's like the epitome of an ON day. I know plenty of runners running 15:xx, or even 14:xx that run the majority of their easy runs in the 7 minute range and they are hella faster than you or I. Easy days are just that: easy. You get the same, virtually identical aerobic benefits whether you run 7:30 pace or 8:30 pace. There is no "threshold" you pass going from stupidly easy, to very easy, to easy, to "fast" easy that gives dramatic benefits like there is as you approach AnT (tempo run pace/1HR race pace), or VO2 max. If your still not sold about easy running go take a look at the thread I linked earlier and take a look at what paces those guys are running. Lots of 16:xx, 15:xx, and 14:xx guys running some pretty modest clips: How slow do you go on easy days? | ||
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Cortza
South Africa328 Posts
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AirbladeOrange
United States2573 Posts
On June 12 2012 16:59 Cortza wrote: Hi TL Runners, I have a question about heart pain after running. I've been runnning at increasing levels of intensity over the past few weeks, about 3-4 times a week of +- 10km at a time. My last run was the most intense yet, and I found my heart kinda hurt the day after. Not debilitating, but a bit like a stiff muscle. It's better today. I've never done this much training except for a few years ago. Is it normal to have this kind of pain? No. Go to a doctor ASAP. | ||
Flicky
England2662 Posts
Note: Don't think what I've written below means you shouldn't go see a medic or doctor, I'm just sharing a similar situation I was in to share other options in case you are really worried or panicking. I was worried I had some kind of heart problem but it wasn't the case. The muscles over the heart (pecs etc) had stiffened up during a run (once) and for a moment I thought it was my heart because that sort of makes sense and it would be a big problem if it was. It feels like it's the heart because of the proximity, but if you really feel around and think about it, you'll probably find the realy culprit is pretty far off. If you've ever stretched too far or for too long (a sort of repetitive strain) with your left arm, it can also feel like your heart is in trouble. If you're at all worried about it, you should stop running and walk. If you start to feel slightly dizzy or light headed stop immediately and take an aspirin as soon you can to thin out your blood (just in case). I went to the doctor after I had similar stiffness and sickness (coincidences) and he assured me it was nothing. In fact, he was kinda condescending that I was there at all. Either way, I'd glad I went. I made him take my heart rate and do some checks and he told me I was fine. On another note - Today's run was incredible. I went a lot faster than usual and felt even better while running than I normally do. Wasn't tiring out and my legs didn't hurt. When I checked the distance afterwards I could really see the change. I did my normal 30 minute, 3 mile+ route in 27 minutes with an extra detour. Part of the speed increase was because I stopped part way as I ran into an old friend. I wonder how far I could've gone if I'd run the full 30 minutes. I'm hoping my next run is this good. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On another note - Today's run was incredible. I went a lot faster than usual and felt even better while running than I normally do. Wasn't tiring out and my legs didn't hurt. When I checked the distance afterwards I could really see the change. I did my normal 30 minute, 3 mile+ route in 27 minutes with an extra detour. Part of the speed increase was because I stopped part way as I ran into an old friend. I wonder how far I could've gone if I'd run the full 30 minutes. I'm hoping my next run is this good. Haha yea, these are definitely the ones that keep you coming back! Effortless. flowing. fast. Fun stuff. I would say for me I get a run like this every 3-4 days. Like you of 7 runs I might get one "FUCK YEA" run, four "felt fine" runs, one "good" run, and one "mediocre/crap" run. | ||
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getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On June 12 2012 13:10 L_Master wrote: This is the sort of stuff that can be VERY worrisome. You said the pace ended up "being what you wanted", but the run is classified as an easy run. Why on earth do you want a certain pace then? Pace doesn't matter on easy runs, you get no extra benefit running 7:30 pace as opposed to 8:30 pace, or at least the benefit is negligible at best. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose by going out and training too hard on your easy runs. Even if your in 18:00 5K shape and 30:00 8k shape 7:20 pace is not easy unless it's like the epitome of an ON day. I know plenty of runners running 15:xx, or even 14:xx that run the majority of their easy runs in the 7 minute range and they are hella faster than you or I. Easy days are just that: easy. You get the same, virtually identical aerobic benefits whether you run 7:30 pace or 8:30 pace. There is no "threshold" you pass going from stupidly easy, to very easy, to easy, to "fast" easy that gives dramatic benefits like there is as you approach AnT (tempo run pace/1HR race pace), or VO2 max. If your still not sold about easy running go take a look at the thread I linked earlier and take a look at what paces those guys are running. Lots of 16:xx, 15:xx, and 14:xx guys running some pretty modest clips: How slow do you go on easy days? As a mid-distance/relatively low mileage guy in high school, most of my distance runs (especially when I started improving quickly near the end of senior year) were fairly difficult and I was running with guys faster than me (although it wasn't necessarily easy for them either). I've picked up the habit of pushing the pace to something challenging but doable for almost all of my distance runs. The only true easy/completely relaxed running I really do is warm-up/cool-down for work outs or tempo. I know this isn't completely ideal and I'll definitely make an effort to slow it down when it's a bad day/try to take a few easy days, but as long as I am recovering sufficiently between runs I see no reason not to push the pace. Easy days are just that: easy. You get the same, virtually identical aerobic benefits whether you run 7:30 pace or 8:30 pace. I really disagree with this - if I did all my 3-4 easy days/week at 8:30 pace compared to sub 7:30 pace the difference would be very apparent. With that said, my #1 goal is to get in my miles for the week. If I can do that while going at sub 7:30 pace, I'm definitely going to shoot for it. If I start to get tired and need to slow down a little for a few days, that's OK too. | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2573 Posts
On June 13 2012 11:33 getSome[703] wrote: As a mid-distance/relatively low mileage guy in high school, most of my distance runs (especially when I started improving quickly near the end of senior year) were fairly difficult and I was running with guys faster than me (although it wasn't necessarily easy for them either). I've picked up the habit of pushing the pace to something challenging but doable for almost all of my distance runs. The only true easy/completely relaxed running I really do is warm-up/cool-down for work outs or tempo. I know this isn't completely ideal and I'll definitely make an effort to slow it down when it's a bad day/try to take a few easy days, but as long as I am recovering sufficiently between runs I see no reason not to push the pace. I really disagree with this - if I did all my 3-4 easy days/week at 8:30 pace compared to sub 7:30 pace the difference would be very apparent. With that said, my #1 goal is to get in my miles for the week. If I can do that while going at sub 7:30 pace, I'm definitely going to shoot for it. If I start to get tired and need to slow down a little for a few days, that's OK too. I'm going with L_Master on this one. You don't want easy runs to make a difference in you feeling more tired or like you did any type of real workout. They are for building base mileage and improving your neurological responses to running while letting you recover from one workout or long run to the next. That being said, I'm not going to tell you what pace you should or should not be running within a reasonable range. It's all about how you feel and what's comfortable for you. If you're running anywhere around 7-8 minutes per mile it's tough to say to someone that isn't an elite or slow runner they should change their pace. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
I really disagree with this - if I did all my 3-4 easy days/week at 8:30 pace compared to sub 7:30 pace the difference would be very apparent. With that said, my #1 goal is to get in my miles for the week. If I can do that while going at sub 7:30 pace, I'm definitely going to shoot for it. If I start to get tired and need to slow down a little for a few days, that's OK too. This is where stuff gets interesting though because you might make it for a while going like this. 3 months, 6 months, maybe a year but too much intensity for too long eventually takes it's toll and by the time you start to notice it it's way too late. Then your out for months with injuries or recovering from overtraining. Just take a look at Chris Solinsky. The past few years he was improving big time all the way to 12:55/26:59. He was doing alot of intense mileage and mileage in general. I forget the exact numbers that he reported but they were significant in and of themselves (pretty sure 100+) but he was counting his miles badger miles style (7:00 = 1 mile) and given his caliber there is little doubt he was running much quicker. Things were obviously going great for a while but then everything caught up with him and he tore his hamstring from his leg. Now he has been out for a year and won't even be back to running by the Olympics and it's quite likely his career is over. Drastic example I know, but the point holds true at less extremes. You can get away with too much for some time, feeling okay, even benefiting from it for a while making nice progress but eventually it can, and does, come crashing down on you. The moral here is that 7:30 pace might feel good to you for a while, even sustainable, and by the time you begin to realize maybe it is too much it's far, far too late. If you didn't read it I strongly urge you to read the thread I linked about how slow people typically take easy days. Take a look at how many 14/15 5k caliber guys are running paces that are marginally faster or even slower than yours and they are 60, 90, maybe even 2 minutes per mile faster. I guess the bottom line idea here is if your going to run easy, run easy. If your going to do workout, do a workout. If your "pushing the pace" that is already by definition not an easy run, it is a workout. The obvious concern is that if you start doing 3,4,5+ workouts per week there is a good chance of trouble looming especially since your also trying to bump mileage. Easy does not necessarily mean slow; a 19:00 guy doesn't need to run 9:30 pace, but you don't give a shit about the pace when your running easy because the goal is to run easy. Note that by easy I don't mean it has to be ridiculously slow. it should feel like running as opposed to jogging along awkwardly slowly, but it should be at an effort that feels like your storing up energy. That being said, I'm not going to tell you what pace you should or should not be running within a reasonable range. It's all about how you feel and what's comfortable for you. If you're running anywhere around 7-8 minutes per mile it's tough to say to someone that isn't an elite or slow runner they should change their pace. If I implied that I was giving exact paces to run, that's my mistake. I was throwing out paces in my previous post just to give an idea of how large of a range can be easy, and emphasize that it's okay to run pretty slow if that is what the body is feeling that day. That said, based on your current estimates of your shape 7:20 pace is not easy. It's around MP and runs at that pace are workouts. Nothing wrong with running at that intensity per se, but be careful just how many workouts your doing each week. | ||
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billy5000
United States865 Posts
I haven't run in probably a bit more than two years, and although I can probably run a mile in a slow steady pace, it seems that I can't afford running slower than 6-7 speed on the treadmill (American treadmill, not sure what it represents but it's the closest thing I have for measurement) because my joints start to wear out much faster. I guess it's because my foot's on the ground longer than it should for running on the balls of the feet. But I can only run a half a mile at 6-7 speed at this stage lol. I swear it feels almost like sprinting but not quite. Anyway, I've been breaking up my runs into quarter miles with rests in between (total of .75 mile), but I was wondering if there's a better way to prepare myself for the 5k? Oh yeah, I was originally going to start running again like a month ago, but because I ran much too slow for the midfoot technique, my right foot's arch hurt like a bitch for the rest of the week. It felt like the bone wasn't properly attached or something. But I'm all healed up and I definitely do not want to risk it again, so I was hoping for a training routine that doesn't compromise running speed. I also have proper shoes for midfoot running, so I'm 90% sure that my problem is caused by my running slowly. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
I haven't run in probably a bit more than two years, and although I can probably run a mile in a slow steady pace, it seems that I can't afford running slower than 6-7 speed on the treadmill (American treadmill, not sure what it represents but it's the closest thing I have for measurement) It's miles per hour. This is between a 10:00 pace (6.0) and 8:30 pace (7.0). | ||
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craz3d
Bulgaria856 Posts
On June 13 2012 15:32 billy5000 wrote: Hey, I just started running and I was just wondering how you should progress training for the 5k. I should also note that I learned to run striking with the midfoot way back when. I haven't run in probably a bit more than two years, and although I can probably run a mile in a slow steady pace, it seems that I can't afford running slower than 6-7 speed on the treadmill (American treadmill, not sure what it represents but it's the closest thing I have for measurement) because my joints start to wear out much faster. I guess it's because my foot's on the ground longer than it should for running on the balls of the feet. But I can only run a half a mile at 6-7 speed at this stage lol. I swear it feels almost like sprinting but not quite. Anyway, I've been breaking up my runs into quarter miles with rests in between (total of .75 mile), but I was wondering if there's a better way to prepare myself for the 5k? The best place to start would be to tell us your height/weight and if you have any sports background. A general tip would be: run relaxed. Don't worry about technique, that will come with time. Right now your feet hurt because your feet aren't used to running. Since you've just started running, you should focus on getting out and running a couple miles at an easy pace. The goal is to make running a habit. Once you can do 5-6 days a week of easy running for 3-4 miles, you should do a time trial to see how fast you can run the 5k. Using your results from the TT, you can see how fast you should go for your workouts/faster runs so that you can improve your time. Keep in mind this might take you many months to achieve, but it'll give a good launching platform for improving and running fast in a variety of distances above 5k. If your goal is to only complete a 5k race, sign up for the first race you can and power through it. | ||
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Ludrik
Australia523 Posts
Prior to these events I've done hardly any training. Maybe only 3-4 runs of 3-5 kms before each one. For the next run though I'd like it to be a bit more comfortable/easier and obviously minimise my risk of injury. So I guess I need some form of training plan to get me there. Currently I've been lifting between 2 and 4 times each week. Typically heavy deadlifts and squats, with 5 minutes of light rowing to warmup. Occasionally I'll do 5-10 minutes of jogging (9km/hr) with intermittent sprints (~20 km/hr) afterwards. I've got some temporary work next month which will limit my gym sessions to maybe twice per week at most (Gym's prepaid and works in a different area so nochanging gyms for only a few weeks). So I plan on just trying to maintain my deadlift and squat at current levels until the end of July. However I'll still be able to run outside most days. I competed in a one off hockey tournament over the weekend just gone and pulled up fairly well afterwards (~3.5 hours game time total over 3 days). Based off that I think I could run maybe 4-5 km's before things start to become uncomfortable. What's the best way to actually test where I'm at running wise? I'm planning on just doing an easy 2-3 kms tomorrow to see how I feel. If I go for a run every second day and just increase the distance by 500m each time would that be a good way to progress towards 10km? | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Based off that I think I could run maybe 4-5 km's before things start to become uncomfortable Your running to hard. Way to hard. What's the best way to actually test where I'm at running wise? A race. Going all out for a specific distance. For a more experienced runner you can tell pretty close what kind of shape you are in based off things like how fast you do tempo runs, your easy training paces, interval workouts, etc; but how that all relates varies alot by individuals. Just because one guy can run 4 miles in 20:00 at a "comfortably hard" pace does not mean he will run the same time as another guy who can do the exact same run. If I go for a run every second day and just increase the distance by 500m each time would that be a good way to progress towards 10km? That WILL get you there, but it's a super, crazy, cautious way of getting there. Like making 5 spine crawlers and 4 queens before taking your nat against a 2 gating protoss or something. Just start with 3-5km 3-4 days per week and add a day each week until your running 6/7 days a week (your preference). Then you can start adding mileage/kilomerage to each day, adding maybe 2-3km to one or two runs each week. If your consistently running anywhere from 5-8km with one day a week doing 10km you'll breeze through the 10k without even noticing it. Important thing here is to learn to run easy. The pace should feel like you could run for 5 hours at the speed you are going. This might feel REALLY slow at first, but it won't take long to naturally pick up about. If your looking for a rough ballpark of pace if your doing a 3k run it should be in roughly 19-20 min and maybe 32-33 minutes for a 5km run (these are just ballpark estimates if your worried about your own ability to recognize easy). | ||
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Ludrik
Australia523 Posts
Just start with 3-5km 3-4 days per week and add a day each week until your running 6/7 days a week (your preference). Then you can start adding mileage/kilomerage to each day, adding maybe 2-3km to one or two runs each week. If your consistently running anywhere from 5-8km with one day a week doing 10km you'll breeze through the 10k without even noticing it. So with running it's generally better to add frequency first before distance? I'll take your advice and structure my training around what you've suggested.Expect a post back from me tomorrow. I'll post an update after every run so that I can be held accountable. If you don't hear from me you'll know I've been slacking off! | ||
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Ludrik
Australia523 Posts
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getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On a side note, this is probably the most miles I've done in a single week (typically in high school I would only run the five weekdays..) but still feel fairly decent now. This week I'll be shooting for 40 miles, so really I'm only trying to do ~3 more, which should be easy. I had a question though: about how fast should my weekly long run be? Is it treated as more of a recovery, or should I be conservative the day before so I can really push the pace on the longer day? I just did my long run, but didn't push it too much because I was still feeling the brisk 6 miles from the day before. If you didn't read it I strongly urge you to read the thread I linked about how slow people typically take easy days. Take a look at how many 14/15 5k caliber guys are running paces that are marginally faster or even slower than yours and they are 60, 90, maybe even 2 minutes per mile faster. I'm sure that when these guys talk about their easy days it typically means they hammered a workout the day prior. I haven't had any balls to the wall workouts yet, and don't plan to for a while. I'm mostly focused on building a strong base for 5-6 weeks, and warm-up/cool-down times for half my distance runs aren't going to help with that. But like I said, I'll take it easy as I need to but so far feel I can be completely recovered for the next day with a medium length run between 7:20 and 7:30 pace. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
@getSome - Good that the training is going well so far! If your honest with yourself and keep listening to your body I'm sure you'll start seeing some good results soon. I had a question though: about how fast should my weekly long run be? Is it treated as more of a recovery, or should I be conservative the day before so I can really push the pace on the longer day? I just did my long run, but didn't push it too much because I was still feeling the brisk 6 miles from the day before. I like the approach of starting it out relaxed, then if you feel good just run smooth in the middle and if your feeling strong pick it up some in the last few miles. It doesn't have to be a brutal workout, but it can be an honest effort provided you feel grooved in. If you feel sluggish/tired/etc. then just using it for time on your feet/aerobic stress at a relaxed pace is good. I just did my long run, but didn't push it too much You did a tempo at 7:09 pace and a long run at 7:16. I can't imagine how this isn't pushing. Maybe your tempo was just a terrible day like you said and your capable of running them alot faster. A good tempo run can give a pretty good idea about fitness too, so it will be interesting to see how that stacks up when you have a better tempo day. I'm mostly focused on building a strong base for 5-6 weeks, and warm-up/cool-down times for half my distance runs aren't going to help with that. Don't understand what your point is here. While I agree you probably don't want to be doing workouts this soon without a decent established base and so far from your goal fall races the logic here doesn't make sense. Warm-Up/Cool-Down running absolutely does help with your base. Miles on the legs are miles of the legs any way you cut it. I think I'm recovering between days reasonably well and am able to maintain similar paces. We'll know for sure in a month or two. One week doesn't tell us much as anyone can go out and run a hard week and feel fine, if it keeps holding up over the next few weeks with you feeling recovered and fresh most of the time then you'll likely be looking good. Since your mileage isn't too high there is a good chance this training will work out and you'll be in good shape and ready to go come fall. 30-40mpw of moderate-high intensity training is pretty common in HS and plenty of kids handle it just fine. I'm sure that when these guys talk about their easy days it typically means they hammered a workout the day prior. No. Many of the posters there make distinctions between "distance days"/"easy" days and then true recovery days. Lots of 6:30-7:00 pace for distance days, and a wide spread of like 7/7:30-10+ for recovery days. Then again, most of those guys are running 80,90,100+ mpw which is a whole different ballgame than 40 mpw. You can probably get away with, even benefit, from doing 40mpw with lots of running around MP (assuming you aren't doing tons of workouts) but if you tried to do the same thing at 100mpw it will complete destroy the runner. The reason I advocate the easy approach for most of the runs is for a couple reasons: 1)It is sustainable - any mileage can be sustained pretty well if most of your runs are easy. Your getting set-up in the right framework to handle the bigger loads as time goes on and teaching your body to become familiar with a wider variety of effort levels 2)Injuries - Running majority of your mileage reasonably easy is much less likely to injure a runner than running lots of it somewhere between moderate-hard. It might be possible to benefit more in the short term by doing lots of mod-hard mileage but the possibility for injury goes up significantly. Basically I'm trying to advocate for what is likely to make one the best runner they can be several years down the road as opposed to in the next 6 months. If we want to make a runner as good as possible in the next 6 months the training would be MUCH different than the training suggested for someone who wants to reach his potential over the course of the next 5-10 years. | ||
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Occultus
Kenya138 Posts
Your goal are distances from 5k-Marathon. Maybe some 1500 and 3000m races to sharpen if you are 5k/10k guy but thats it. Maybe some of you know Dieter Baumann, for those who dont: Olympic champion 1992, fastest non-african runner over the 5k distance (12:54). Dieter is a convinced novice of the 'easy on easy runs' philosophy. He wasnt interested in pace on those kind of runs. He says it was around 5min/km. Sometimes faster, sometimes easier. Thats 50 minutes for 10k. In a typical Winter week he did around 90-100km (im not used to miles, so im just talking in km to be as correct as possible) of this kind of easy running. Everything else was fartlek, intervals, hills, xc and swimming (!). So as you can see, faster aerobic runs are not needed to run fast. I use this as an example to show it. But of course, everyone is different and reacts differently to training. So we have Arne Gabius, Baumanns trainee. 3k indoor 7:38, 5k 13:13 and Mo Farah said earlier this season that Arne is the next white runner to run sub 13. Baumann coached Gabius for six years. And while he was clearly the best 3k/5k runner on a national level, he wasnt competitive on an international level. Stumbled around with constant 13:30 minutes. Then Baumann retired as a coach and Arne restructured his training. Every aerobic run is now paced at a level around 3:30 min/km. In addition he finished his studies (he studied medicine and became a doctor while beiing an athelete till this point) which enabled him to completely focus on regenerating/resting between the sessions. His times exploded, he is able to race with the africans. As you can see, it can improve your times but is not needed to be fast and requires absolutely perfect regeneration and definitely a solid base. Remember, Gabius has been a top notch runner for 10 years after changing this. Nearly everyone of the 16-17minute 5k range athletes i know got finally injured/burned out after doing this for a longer time, including me. If you dont hit 15 minutes for 5k or 31minutes for 10k dont consider it. This doenst mean you should creep around on easy days, but you should be honest to yourself if the pace youre on really is easy for you. It also differs if you are a (Half)Marathon runner. Cause if you are, you should do 1 of your longer runs every 3-4 weeks in pre competition phase at a faster pace. close to race pace. But thats another topic and easy runs remain easy. Yes, Lagat, Rupp and the Oregon guys do 5:30 mile pace on aerobic runs NOWADAYS but the vast majority of their lifetime miles are easy pace miles. They switched slowly over the years and once your body is ready you can do it. But that doesnt mean 1 or 2 years of some running. For newer runners the rule is the following: increase mileage every season by an 15% average. The best way to do this is to increase the amount of running in base period without adding much intensity (ofcourse some intensity is needed in base, but not that much, xc and hills is the way to go). Once the season is about to start you reduce miles by some percentage and add more intensity. So at the end of this season You averaged some more miles than at the end of the last season. Repeat it for 5-6 years till youre at your peak. Then worry about fastening easy runs or wonder how fast you became without even worrying about them. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Also notice that guys like Rupp/Farah etc doing their aerobic runs at 5:30-5:45 pace is roughly 75% of 5K race pace. So for an 18:38 runner that's like 7:55 pace per mile, which really isn't all that fast. | ||
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