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On September 22 2011 03:55 Horrde wrote:I agree. Genetics are often seen as the separator of high level competition. There's lot to say on the matter and Airblade summed up most of it quite nicely. This image is taken from a widely regarded powerlifting book but I still it feel applies to elite level running. Ignore the timeline, but the graph is roughly accurate imo. The solid thicker line is your progress. + Show Spoiler +
This image pretty much confirmes my general idea of "talent".
Also thanks to everyone else who replied. Guess you really dont wanna think about this factor cause you cant change it anyway and it only depresses you if you blame talent for being slower that other people.
Sidenote on that: Lance Armstrong, a pretty fit and "gifted" guy in terms of VO2max and endurance in general finished his marathon slightly sub 3. Not bad at all but i bet there were at least some less "gifted" boys who were even faster. It just shows how important hard and constant work is. I read that it takes at least 1-2 years until every part of your body and all your blood cells realized that they need to change because, all of a sudden, their owner became a runner!
Edit: Big thanks for the last post, was exactly what i was looking for!
Now the last point on my personal checklist is findingthe right training shedule.
Are 6 workouts a week too less/much for an advanced runner and when comes the point you can go over to elite plans with 10+ sessions a week without hurting yourself and your fitness because its simply too much?
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On September 22 2011 04:27 Occultus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 03:55 Horrde wrote:I agree. Genetics are often seen as the separator of high level competition. There's lot to say on the matter and Airblade summed up most of it quite nicely. This image is taken from a widely regarded powerlifting book but I still it feel applies to elite level running. Ignore the timeline, but the graph is roughly accurate imo. The solid thicker line is your progress. + Show Spoiler + This image pretty much confirmes my general idea of "talent". Also thanks to everyone else who replied. Guess you really dont wanna think about this factor cause you cant change it anyway and it only depresses you if you blame talent for being slower that other people. Sidenote on that: Lance Armstrong, a pretty fit and "gifted" guy in terms of VO2max and endurance in general finished his marathon slightly sub 3. Not bad at all but i bet there were at least some less "gifted" boys who were even faster. It just shows how important hard and constant work is. I read that it takes at least 1-2 years until every part of your body and all your blood cells realized that they need to change because, all of a sudden, their owner became a runner! Edit: Big thanks for the last post, was exactly what i was looking for! Now the last point on my personal checklist is findingthe right training shedule. Are 6 workouts a week too less/much for an advanced runner and when comes the point you can go over to elite plans with 10+ sessions a week without hurting yourself and your fitness because its simply too much?
6 workouts a week!? o.O
You must really be trying to kill yourself. Most decent college runners and elites don't run more than 3 workouts per week on a consistent basis. They MAY for short periods of time, but not sustainably. That many hard sessions per week will just destroy you.
Actually re reading your post I think your using workout to mean run. That can be a little confusing because workout generally means a hard effort such as a track session, long run w/quality, tempo etc. In terms of number of runs, if your serious about training and getting faster I'd start doubling as soon as you are running 30-40 mpw consistently. There is no reason not to double. It is both easier on the body and equally, if not more, beneficial than singles. Just add an easy 2-3 mile double to your morning, starting with 2 days each week and building to 5 or 6 adding one each week.
Doubling is probably the single best thing I've done in the past 6 months for enhancing my fitness. Not only do I have more flexibility, I can do a workout and then use the easy 3 mile double as a recovery so I can run normally the next day. Not to mention the decrease in stress from spreading the running out and the ease of adding mileage with doubles.
Do we have a real running gosu here with tons of experience?
I ve read a book (from a former 27min runner at 10k) and nearly whole german runnersworld forums and they talk about "talent" everywhere.
Does it really need talent to be good and what is the final barrier you can reach with no "talent".
Many professional cyclists say that talent isnt that big of a factor. They rather say that there are the genes which determine if your a muscular or skinny type of guy. Another factor and maybe the biggest is the vulnerability to injuries. If youre injuried half the time you wont come far, thats a logical fact.
And there are of course thing like VO²max and what type of muscles you have.
But really, do you think that only some "gifted" people are able to run great times like sub15 or sub30?
I dont like the idea to limit one because of factors like "talent". I think that it comes into weight if youre on top and fighting for national championship but is there really a barrier beyond this level?
Yes, it takes a measure of talent to run sub15, let alone sub 30. No way can every member of the population, or even most, run a time like that even if they trained smart at 100+mpw remaining uninjured (yes, that's an aspect of talent). It takes a certain measure of speed, VO2, efficiency etc to run times like this; and not everybody has that.
Put another way a 30 min 10K is equivalent to about a 4:10 mile. Not only do some people just not possess the level of aerobic strength needed for a time like that, not everyone has 55-56 second quarter speed (and 55/56 is being generous).
You can't really put talent into a "talented" and "un-talented" dichotomy. Its a continuum. When I think of someone with no talent, I am imagining someone with massive gait problems, terrible coordination, extremely low starting VO2 max, etc.
Not that it determines ultimate potential by any means, but how else do you explain somebody who can run sub 5 mile with no training, whereas someone else can't break 9 without some focused running.
Another factor in determining how fast you can get is your resistance to pain and willingness to work hard. A VERY large group of people might be able to run a sub 5 mile, but most won't because they aren't willing or able to handle the training it would take and the pain/discomfort associated with a race.
While you can't put a number on it if I was going to thrown out a random ballpark estimate I'd guess that the typical person, with no major disabilities and an average level of athleticism, is capable of running somewhere in the 17's, maybe faster, if they put their mind to it. Running is a funny beast though, some people can train for a year and a half and see no progress and then one day they go out and drop a minute and a half from their 5K.
Dear... god.... I don't know if your joking, but I'll bite.
It doesn't look like there's many experienced marathoners here (if any) so I'll fill in with my 2 cents on the subject... I'm not of Kenyan background (lol), but I run numerous ones every year, with decent times as well, usually finishing in top 5 - 10% of an open public pack.
-> 60 dollars is dirt cheap for a marathon running event; even for a half marathon that's not a bad price. Marathons now are usually in the 90 to 110 range, with halves topping at 75 I've seen.
Yes, 60 dollars is a good price for a well run marathon. However, its still a reasonable chunk of change that not everyone is going to be willing to pay. Marathons, and race in general, could probably be alot cheaper but they often toss in all kinds of extras such as race-shirts, music, festivities, etc. Paying 60+ for a marathon probably isn't worth it to everyone especially when you can race local 5K/10K's for 5 or 10 bucks.
From personal experience over the years, I've roughly estimated that the difficulty of a race day run will increase 3-fold for twice the distance. A marathon is said to be 90% mental toughness, and the final 10% is all in your head.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
Rest of the advice though is great, solid stuff, especially the part about respecting the distance. So many people try to do a marathon off maybe a couple months of 20-40 miles a week with a few long runs of like 16-22 (I won't even go into how stupid this long run/ low mileage crap is) in there then have miserable experiences. If your going to run a marathon be smart about it, give yourself 6-12 months and gradually build up to 50-70+ mpw, I promise you'll have a much better experience.
Also, what do you use to record/track results? I use Nike+ but I don't know how good it's distance measuring is.
runningahead.com - Site has a fanatsic and easy to use running log to track runs/workouts/progress etc. If your into a bunch of fancy features they have some of those to. If I don't know the distance of the run I'll usually just google earth it and get an approximate value.
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On September 22 2011 01:38 Orpheos wrote:
hmm interesting. i guess ill take it abit easier.
idk i was kinda in a rush to work out heavier because the first week I started(running+eating well) I like immediately shed 10pounds so I got like more enthusiastic. plus Im meeting my dad in two weeks for a trip and Id really like to have atleast a slightly visual difference because hes always hounding me to get healthier >_<.
Im not sure how to describe the pain. Its like if you do a full set of pushups til failure, right afterwards your muscles are burning really hard. its like that more in my shins towards the front of my legs.
Is it on your actual shin (inside of the leg) or out on outside of your leg like on the muscle? If it's on the inside it's likely a shin splint. If it's on the outside my best guess is your muscles are just overstrained, it happened to me like 1/2 a year ago. How are you landing your feet when you run, on the ball or the heel of your foot?
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Sounds like most people here are endurance runners, any sprinters here?
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8748 Posts
I'd just like to emphasize building up slowly when starting barefoot/minimalist running. It's rather easy to push yourself, thinking that you're just getting a really good workout, to the point of injury when you first start. Also stretch feet/calves as much as possible. I really like "barefoot" running (I wear Vibram Bikila).
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On September 22 2011 06:59 dudeman001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 01:38 Orpheos wrote:
hmm interesting. i guess ill take it abit easier.
idk i was kinda in a rush to work out heavier because the first week I started(running+eating well) I like immediately shed 10pounds so I got like more enthusiastic. plus Im meeting my dad in two weeks for a trip and Id really like to have atleast a slightly visual difference because hes always hounding me to get healthier >_<.
Im not sure how to describe the pain. Its like if you do a full set of pushups til failure, right afterwards your muscles are burning really hard. its like that more in my shins towards the front of my legs. Is it on your actual shin (inside of the leg) or out on outside of your leg like on the muscle? If it's on the inside it's likely a shin splint. If it's on the outside my best guess is your muscles are just overstrained, it happened to me like 1/2 a year ago. How are you landing your feet when you run, on the ball or the heel of your foot?
its definitely just a muscle thing. I didnt run for like 2 days and Im fine.
I think its just cause I havent run much like.... ever. and Im abit overweight. 200lbs and 5 foot 10
*edit
so I lied. I just went jogging. and when I jog, my heel hits first and when I sprint its my ball.
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L_Master, thanks for your great post back on page 1, and all of the ones after. Much appreciated 
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Thanks Horrde and L_Master, I'll try them out.
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I started running maybe in April and did my first half marathon at the end of August. Since then my shins haven't felt great and I've been avoiding running. I went for a slow and easy 5km yesterday and the pain on the inside is gone I think but the outside of the shin felt a little uncomfortable afterwards. - After months of climbing injuring I'm HELL paranoid about anything :D
I really enjoyed the training and the event though. Exercise is my stress reliever so its really frustrating when you're frustrated about being unable to relieve your frustration D:
The barefoot running looks really interesting. How slow is slow (when building up distance) with that? I'm in no rush at the moment but I'd like to do my first marathon in 11 months. I know I can get my fitness to there. I just want to make sure I do it without injury 
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Hmm I seem to have a different experience from most.
When I started running, I just pushed myself as hard as I could, but simply didn't receive any injury. I think it is probably cause I was limited by stamina, not muscles or anything. I never tried marathon-esque things though, I only run 10km twice a week, and I take one whole hour :x
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On September 22 2011 09:39 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:59 dudeman001 wrote:On September 22 2011 01:38 Orpheos wrote:
hmm interesting. i guess ill take it abit easier.
idk i was kinda in a rush to work out heavier because the first week I started(running+eating well) I like immediately shed 10pounds so I got like more enthusiastic. plus Im meeting my dad in two weeks for a trip and Id really like to have atleast a slightly visual difference because hes always hounding me to get healthier >_<.
Im not sure how to describe the pain. Its like if you do a full set of pushups til failure, right afterwards your muscles are burning really hard. its like that more in my shins towards the front of my legs. Is it on your actual shin (inside of the leg) or out on outside of your leg like on the muscle? If it's on the inside it's likely a shin splint. If it's on the outside my best guess is your muscles are just overstrained, it happened to me like 1/2 a year ago. How are you landing your feet when you run, on the ball or the heel of your foot? its definitely just a muscle thing. I didnt run for like 2 days and Im fine. I think its just cause I havent run much like.... ever. and Im abit overweight. 200lbs and 5 foot 10 *edit so I lied. I just went jogging. and when I jog, my heel hits first and when I sprint its my ball.
For the future try avoid landing on your heel while you jog. It's going to feel incredibly weird at first, but we were designed to land on the ball/mid section of the foot. Heel running is one of the quickest ways to get injured. Take your time getting used to it though
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Landing on midfoot comes with speed. Imagine lading on your heel and rolling your whole foot while on a < 4km/m pace. Dont be too serious about your foot landing. There will be people telling you "only run with your ball" but its very individial. Just do what feels comfortable and natural for you.
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I want to start running, I will use this thread as a resource. Bookmarked, thank you!
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On September 23 2011 00:47 RHCPgergo wrote:
I want to start running, I will use this thread as a resource. Bookmarked, thank you!
I will be continuing to add resources to the OP and such, and obvious feel free to ask questions, share training, post success stories, etc.
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On September 22 2011 18:24 Pondo wrote:I started running maybe in April and did my first half marathon at the end of August. Since then my shins haven't felt great and I've been avoiding running. I went for a slow and easy 5km yesterday and the pain on the inside is gone I think but the outside of the shin felt a little uncomfortable afterwards. - After months of climbing injuring I'm HELL paranoid about anything :D I really enjoyed the training and the event though. Exercise is my stress reliever so its really frustrating when you're frustrated about being unable to relieve your frustration D: The barefoot running looks really interesting. How slow is slow (when building up distance) with that? I'm in no rush at the moment but I'd like to do my first marathon in 11 months. I know I can get my fitness to there. I just want to make sure I do it without injury
I think starting barefoot running and first time marathon training at the same time with a goal of competing in 11 months is risky. For good marathon programs you need to safely (slowly) build your weekly mileage and eventually get it very high.
For barefoot running you need to build up very slowly. It depends how often you are running as well. Say you go barefoot running twice a week, you should probably be increasing your time by 2-3 minutes every 1 or 2 weeks. THAT'S how slow I'm talking about. That's why it will be so difficult to build mileage and barefoot toughness at the same time. Barefoot running is much easier on softer surfaces like turf and grass, so you could utilize that more.
Also, you are obviously not limited to ONLY barefoot running, but there are ways you could mix it in by mixing things up. Barefoot run once a week and wear a minimalist shoe once a week during an easy run. Something like that if you want.
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I too suggest taking things very slowly when getting into minimalist or barefoot running. I managed to hurt myself pretty badly after I started running in Vibrams because I increased my distance to quickly. The vibrams are great though, I don't think I'll ever go back.
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On September 23 2011 10:05 Azerbaijan wrote:
I too suggest taking things very slowly when getting into minimalist or barefoot running. I managed to hurt myself pretty badly after I started running in Vibrams because I increased my distance to quickly. The vibrams are great though, I don't think I'll ever go back.
I used to run a lot and I started having some knee problems (nothing serious, thankfully). I haven't run in a few months, but I want to start back up again.
If I get vibrams, how hard is it to get used to them? Does it take days, weeks, months?
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I'd highly recommend to anyone to get nike + who are having a hard time getting into running.
The feedback of knowing how far you have gone, how fast, and how long is a great motivator to keep going. Definitely has helped me enjoy running a lot more ever since I got it!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kSrJJuda_VQ/TKnzpmKpeVI/AAAAAAAAACE/SEcVA-xbY9A/s1600/image002.jpg)
