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mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
June 26 2013 21:27 GMT
#1061
I hope I'm not coming across antagonistic I want the optimal diet.

Found a study that recommends eliminating sugar as opposed to fats:
http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02533732

Also a study where despite eating cheese with high saturated fat lower CHD results were reported:
Interestingly, in this respect, cheese has not been established as a dietary risk factor for cardiovascular
disease in epidemiological studies, despite its high levels of saturated fat and salt. We hypothesize that
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/11/3100 (8 of 13) [2/7/2007 11:28:08 AM]Dietary Intake of Menaquinone Is Associated with a Reduced Risk of Co...rdam Study -- Geleijnse et al. 134 (11): 3100 -- Journal of Nutrition
menaquinones in cheese (MK-8 and MK-9) could exert a beneficial effect in the cardiovascular system and
that the high cheese consumption in France and the Mediterranean countries may possibly account for lower
prevalences of CHD

http://www.willner.com/content/561_A.pdf
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
June 26 2013 22:00 GMT
#1062
I wouldn't trust a study concerning France. We die of alcohol poisoning before anything else anyway. And yes, that is a "joke".
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
June 26 2013 22:01 GMT
#1063
This is funny. Says he likes science, but only refers to the "authorities" while ignoring science. OK

If anyone actually wants my stance on the issue it is this:

~ Saturated fatty acids have been show to have very little effect if a small net positive on CVD risk.
~ PUFAs have been show to have a good net positive effect on CVD risk.

I do not refer to the wiki link because it presents misleading information. In comparison of SFA and PUFAs you'll see that PUFAs have a neutral to slightly positive effect compared to SFAs on decreasing CVD risk.

This does not support the conclusion that SFAs cause CVD as these people who are ignoring the science are claiming. It only shows that PUFAs are a bit better than SFAs at preventing heart disease, which I agree with given the literature and my statements above. SFAs in the diet are for the most part neutral, and are actually needed for steroid hormone reproduction as well as energy during exercise.

It is clear in the study I presented and those in the OP that SFAs do not cause heart disease.

Bad fat is bad. Bad fat is trans fat. Refined carbohydrates are also terrible, as are a specific type of PUFAs specifically pro-inflammatory linoleic acid (Omega 6s) which are prevalent in modern diets because of mass industrial seed oil processing such as safflower and other seed oils:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23386268


-------------------

In any case, given the other people who decry meat and "Paleo"

I wonder what people would say the Paleo studies done so far. This could be funny also.

-------------------

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v63/n8/abs/ejcn20094a.html

Metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet

Results: Compared with the baseline (usual) diet, we observed (a) significant reductions in BP associated with improved arterial distensibility (−3.1±2.9, P=0.01 and +0.19±0.23, P=0.05);(b) significant reduction in plasma insulin vs time AUC, during the OGTT (P=0.006); and (c) large significant reductions in total cholesterol, low-density lipoproteins (LDL) and triglycerides (−0.8±0.6 (P=0.007), −0.7±0.5 (P=0.003) and −0.3±0.3 (P=0.01) mmol/l respectively). In all these measured variables, either eight or all nine participants had identical directional responses when switched to paleolithic type diet, that is, near consistently improved status of circulatory, carbohydrate and lipid metabolism/physiology.

Conclusions: Even short-term consumption of a paleolithic type diet improves BP and glucose tolerance, decreases insulin secretion, increases insulin sensitivity and improves lipid profiles without weight loss in healthy sedentary humans.


Improves all blood markers including BP and lipid profiles.

-------------------

http://www.cardiab.com/content/8/1/35

Beneficial effects of a Paleolithic diet on cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot study

Results: Study participants had on average a diabetes duration of 9 years, a mean HbA1c of 6,6% units by Mono-S standard and were usually treated with metformin alone (3 subjects) or metformin in combination with a sulfonylurea (3 subjects) or a thiazolidinedione (3 subjects). Mean average dose of metformin was 1031 mg per day. Compared to the diabetes diet, the Paleolithic diet resulted in lower mean values of HbA1c (-0.4% units, p = 0.01), triacylglycerol (-0.4 mmol/L, p = 0.003), diastolic blood pressure (-4 mmHg, p = 0.03), weight (-3 kg, p = 0.01), BMI (-1 kg/m2, p = 0.04) and waist circumference (-4 cm, p = 0.02), and higher mean values of high density lipoprotein cholesterol (+0.08 mmol/L, p = 0.03). The Paleolithic diet was mainly lower in cereals and dairy products, and higher in fruits, vegetables, meat and eggs, as compared with the Diabetes diet. Further, the Paleolithic diet was lower in total energy, energy density, carbohydrate, dietary glycemic load, saturated fatty acids and calcium, and higher in unsaturated fatty acids, dietary cholesterol and several vitamins. Dietary GI was slightly lower in the Paleolithic diet (GI = 50) than in the Diabetic diet (GI = 55).

Conclusion: Over a 3-month study period, a Paleolithic diet improved glycemic control and several cardiovascular risk factors compared to a Diabetes diet in patients with type 2 diabetes.


Yes, the Paleo diet is BETTER than the diabetes diet at improving blood markers in diabetics. LOL

-------------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17583796

A Palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a Mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease.

RESULTS: Over 12 weeks, there was a 26% decrease of AUC Glucose(0-120) (p = 0.0001) in the Palaeolithic group and a 7% decrease (p = 0.08) in the Consensus group. The larger (p = 0.001) improvement in the Palaeolithic group was independent (p = 0.0008) of change in waist circumference (-5.6 cm in the Palaeolithic group, -2.9 cm in the Consensus group; p = 0.03). In the study population as a whole, there was no relationship between change in AUC Glucose(0-120) and changes in weight (r = -0.06, p = 0.9) or waist circumference (r = 0.01, p = 1.0). There was a tendency for a larger decrease of AUC Insulin(0-120) in the Palaeolithic group, but because of the strong association between change in AUC Insulin(0-120) and change in waist circumference (r = 0.64, p = 0.0003), this did not remain after multivariate analysis.

CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION:

A Palaeolithic diet may improve glucose tolerance independently of decreased waist circumference.


Paleo outperforms the "heart healthy" Mediterrean diet.

----------------------

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v62/n5/abs/1602790a.html

Effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers

Results: Mean weight decreased by 2.3 kg (P<0.001), body mass index by 0.8 (P<0.001), waist circumference by 0.5 cm (P=0.001), systolic blood pressure by 3 mm Hg (P=0.03) and plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 by 72% (P=0.020). Regarding nutrient intake, intake of energy decreased by 36%, and other effects were also observed, both favourable (fat composition, antioxidants, potassium-sodium rate) and unfavourable (calcium).

Conclusion: This short-term intervention showed some favourable effects by the diet, but further studies, including control group, are needed.


Good results + recommendation for more studies. I hope so.

---------------------

http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf

XLV. PROLONGED MEAT DIETS WITH A STUDY OF KIDNEY
FUNCTION AND KETOSIS.*

Two normal men volunteered to live solely on meat for one
year, which gave us an unusual opportunity of studying the
effects of this diet. The term “meat,” as used by us, included
both the lean and the fat portions of animals. The subjects
derived most of their calories from fat and the diet was quite
different from what one, who uses the term “meat” as including
chiefly lean muscle, would expect.

Conclusion and Summary

1. Two men lived on an exclusive meat diet for 1 year and a
third man for 10 days. The relative amounts of lean and fat,
meat ingested were left to the instinctive choice of the individuals.
2. The protein content varied from 100 to 140 gm., the fat from
by guest on June 26, 2013 http://www.jbc.org/ Downloaded from
W. S. McClellan and E. F. Du Bois 667
200 to 300 gm., the carbohydrate, derived entirely from the meat,
from 7 to 12 gm., and the fuel value from 2000 to 3100 calories.
3. At the end of the year, the subjects were mentally alert,
physically active, and showed no specific physical changes in any
system of the body.
4. During the 1st week, all three men lost weight, due to a
shift in the water content of the body while adjusting itself to the
low carbohydrate diet. Thereafter, their weights remained
practically constant.
5. In the prolonged test, the blood pressure of one man re-
mained constant; the systolic pressure of the other decreased 20
mm. and the diastolic pressure remained uniform.
6. The control of the bowels was not disturbed while the sub-
jects were on prescribed meat diet. In one instance, when the
proportion of protein calories in the diet exceeded 40 per cent,
a diarrhea developed.
7. Vitamin deficiencies did not appear.
8. The total acidity of the urine during the meat diet was in-
creased to 2 or 3 times that of the acidity on mixed diets and ace-
tonuria was present throughout the periods of exclusive meat.
9. Urine examinations, determinations of the nitrogenous
constituents of the blood, and kidney function tests revealed no
evidence of kidney damage.
10. While on the meat diet, the men metabolized foodstuffs with
FA: G ratios between 1.9 and 3.0 and excreted from 0.4 to 7.2 gm.
of acetone bodies per day.
11. In these trained subjects, the clinical observations and
laboratory studies gave no evidence that any ill effects had
occurred from the prolonged use of the exclusive meat diet.


No adverse effects from eating only meat and animal fat for a year.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 22:17:46
June 26 2013 22:14 GMT
#1064
Whohoo, cherry picked study bomb.

Kidney fucking is suddenly very important when it is in the right study. Very important.
Diet with some favorable effects during a 3 week period? That's a damn good diet, damn good.

BTW, whatever the World Health Organization, the American Dietetic Association, the Dietitians of Canada, the British Dietetic Association, American Heart Association, the British Heart Foundation, the World Heart Federation, the British National Health Service, the United States Food and Drug Administration, and the European Food Safety Authority say is not science.
BTW, wikipedia is misleading when I don't link it.
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20010 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 22:17:31
June 26 2013 22:17 GMT
#1065
On June 27 2013 06:15 Komei wrote:


Also, according to the pro saturated fat people, low cholesterol levels are bad. (hint: they say this because they believe saturated fat causes high cholesterol) So you can't have it both ways.


Umm actually you can have it both ways...low HDL levels ARE a bad thing. However, low LDL and triglycerides are a good thing.

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/What-Your-Cholesterol-Levels-Mean_UCM_305562_Article.jsp
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 22:46:26
June 26 2013 22:20 GMT
#1066
No, they say high cholesterol levels overall are good. That's not the same as an LDL or HDL value.
Remember, you are actually arguing against the accepted notions about cholesterol. It overall being bad, the HDL being good and the LDL being bad and saturated fat causing it.
That's the accepted theory subscribed o by all relevant authorities (World Health Organization, the American Dietetic Association, the Dietitians of Canada, the British Dietetic Association, American Heart Association, the British Heart Foundation, the World Heart Federation, the British National Health Service, the United States Food and Drug Administration, and the European Food Safety Authority)

Eshlow has his own pet theory because the mainstream theory doesn't fit well with paleo diet. So people who are against the accepted notions about saturated fat and cholesterol often say high overall cholesterol is good and that thus saturated fat is good. They have studies that show lowered CVD in people with high cholesterol.

Also, you link the authority I have been using all this time. They do bad science, remember. Read Eshlow's post. American Heart Association cannot be trusted. They think saturated fats are 'bad' fats.
Can't have it both ways.

Remember guys, we have to load up on SFA because they are used in steroids. We need it for testosterone. You don't want to be like a girl, do you (is estrogen a steroid?).

We have like 40 milligram of testosterone in our body. That takes a lot of fat guys. Have to maximize our test levels with optimal SFA.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
June 26 2013 22:25 GMT
#1067
It all started with that dumb 7 Country study that left out 15 countries and said "Look! Saturated fat means heart attacks." and everyone said of course and now any position other than that is a pet theory.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 22:48:31
June 26 2013 22:31 GMT
#1068
lol. didn't even read my post.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 22:45:31
June 26 2013 22:38 GMT
#1069
Whatever conspiracy theory you need to make your own position reasonable.

Look, things are really complex and we have just scratched the surface. But that what we know is not completely upside down of what is the truth.

Also, when reading any study you have to understand how it is almost impossible to do a long term controlled study on humans. In fact, it is impossible. You can't put many people on a strict died for decades.
So any study has a lot of white noise. So much so some studies have completely skewered results. That is why there are so many studies with completely contradictory outcomes. Both studies were likely carried out properly. One has an outcome that deceives, one has an outcome that gives the right picture of reality.
Unless of course you think this is all 'a fucking no-brainer' (Hi Eshlow).

Fact remains there is a certain consensus that developed. And I happen to believe there is a lot of reasoning behind it.
If you don't, fine. But don't call me unscientific when you are in fact guilty of it.

I can find studies on plasma cosmology. Doesn't make it true. And that doesn't even come close to the difficulties in nutrition.
Take this approach you guys are taking to interpreting nutrition studies to any other field of science and it is immediately obvious that approach just doesn't fly.
Keniji
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Netherlands2569 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 23:13:40
June 26 2013 23:09 GMT
#1070
On June 27 2013 07:38 Komei wrote:
Whatever conspiracy theory you need to make your own position reasonable.

Look, things are really complex and we have just scratched the surface. But that what we know is not completely upside down of what is the truth.

Also, when reading any study you have to understand how it is almost impossible to do a long term controlled study on humans. In fact, it is impossible. You can't put many people on a strict died for decades.
So any study has a lot of white noise. So much so some studies have completely skewered results. That is why there are so many studies with completely contradictory outcomes. Both studies were likely carried out properly. One has an outcome that deceives, one has an outcome that gives the right picture of reality.
Unless of course you think this is all 'a fucking no-brainer' (Hi Eshlow).

Fact remains there is a certain consensus that developed. And I happen to believe there is a lot of reasoning behind it.
If you don't, fine. But don't call me unscientific when you are in fact guilty of it.

I can find studies on plasma cosmology. Doesn't make it true. And that doesn't even come close to the difficulties in nutrition.
Take this approach you guys are taking to interpreting nutrition studies to any other field of science and it is immediately obvious that approach just doesn't fly.


I don't even see what you are trying to argue for.

It is pretty obvious that you don't want to change your mind, and it is pretty obvious that eshlow and co have an opposite opinion.

What is left is people who haven't made up their mind. Usually these people make up their mind considering both parties' arguments. Now eshlow might cherrypicks his studies as you said, but if you want to disprove him/make your arguments valid you have to do the same. That's how people usually discuss on a scientific basis.

So you might be right or wrong, but if you don't do that all you do is putting invalid arguments out there while eshlow isn't as he backs off his arguments with studies. Now think about who people who haven't made up their mind put their money on.

If you don't want to adress those neutral people tho, considering neither you nor eshlow will change their mind, all you do is piss people off.

(and by cherrypick I mean if people have studies that show their current view is right, why would they go out of their way to find studies (which might or might not exist) that disprove that view? - if you have that view in the discussion it is your job to do so, and if you don't want to do that, you are just not believable)
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
June 26 2013 23:12 GMT
#1071
Ah, Eshlow tricked you. Shame on you then.

You disputing I can study bomb this? Give me any position that can be taken on the subject and I'll google some studies for you that support that position.
Keniji
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Netherlands2569 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 23:15:17
June 26 2013 23:14 GMT
#1072
On June 27 2013 08:12 Komei wrote:
Ah, Eshlow tricked you. Shame on you then.

You disputing I can study bomb this? Give me any position that can be taken on the subject and I'll google some studies for you that support that position.


That is actually all I am asking for. Back up your claims with a study. So I can make up my mind if your arguments are valid or not.
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
June 26 2013 23:30 GMT
#1073
My argument is that linking individual studies is a meaningless endeavor. I don't have any studies to back up this claim, so I can't link them.
Vitruvian
Profile Joined September 2011
United States168 Posts
June 26 2013 23:43 GMT
#1074
I'm actually really surprised, given how obvious it is that you don't actually read dissenting posts for comprehension, that you haven't just linked the China Study a bunch of times. That would have been a whole lot funnier than your completely brain-dead assertion that "linking studies is meaningless."
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
June 27 2013 01:02 GMT
#1075
On June 27 2013 07:38 Komei wrote:
Whatever conspiracy theory you need to make your own position reasonable.




this has got to be the troll from a couple months ago
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
June 27 2013 01:23 GMT
#1076
This is funny now.
4thHatchery
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Finland125 Posts
June 27 2013 07:48 GMT
#1077
On June 27 2013 10:02 AoN.DimSum wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2013 07:38 Komei wrote:
Whatever conspiracy theory you need to make your own position reasonable.




this has got to be the troll from a couple months ago

Miyoshino, Hanakurena, Tadatomo? To me, spotting his new accounts is a bit like Where's Waldo.
Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
June 27 2013 08:43 GMT
#1078
I think you guys are assuming Komei stands on a position when he actually isn't. All I read is him saying that science hasn't quite figured out how nutrition works because it is a very complex matter, and that it is safe to assume that the health organisations may know better than you what they are talking about.
Reminds me of the head chair of the academy of medicine (I know, authority bla bla bla) saying that medicine isn't an exact science still.
Komei, although he likes to bash on the ruling god of the H&F forum a bit too much, seems more like a true skeptic than a vegan nut to me.
Mondieu
Profile Joined November 2011
Romania803 Posts
June 27 2013 10:03 GMT
#1079
Hello. I started working out 6 months ago. I got into it more seriously 3 months ago and I started seeing progress. I am happy with it. I am now thinking of using supplements.

What brands do you use ? I see Weider is pretty good. Other options would be http://www.x-life.no/products/kreatin-monohydrat-1kg?gclid=CIWVvfz5g7gCFUOV3god7l0AZw , but Weider says Pure Kreatine, and this one is Kreatin Monohydrat.

I'm in a 3 weeks holiday back to Romania right now and here Weider would be the better choice. Cheers. Sorry for not having time right now to browse through all the threads. Help <3
GuiltyJerk
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States584 Posts
June 27 2013 14:19 GMT
#1080
On June 27 2013 19:03 Mondieu wrote:
Hello. I started working out 6 months ago. I got into it more seriously 3 months ago and I started seeing progress. I am happy with it. I am now thinking of using supplements.

What brands do you use ? I see Weider is pretty good. Other options would be http://www.x-life.no/products/kreatin-monohydrat-1kg?gclid=CIWVvfz5g7gCFUOV3god7l0AZw , but Weider says Pure Kreatine, and this one is Kreatin Monohydrat.

I'm in a 3 weeks holiday back to Romania right now and here Weider would be the better choice. Cheers. Sorry for not having time right now to browse through all the threads. Help <3



Creatine Monohydrate is what you want, it's "real creatine" some of them come loaded with additional sugar or whatever bs that you don't actually want, so go for it :D
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