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General nutrition recommendations - Page 55

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ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
June 27 2013 16:00 GMT
#1081
On June 27 2013 17:43 Cynry wrote:
I think you guys are assuming Komei stands on a position when he actually isn't. All I read is him saying that science hasn't quite figured out how nutrition works because it is a very complex matter, and that it is safe to assume that the health organisations may know better than you what they are talking about.
Reminds me of the head chair of the academy of medicine (I know, authority bla bla bla) saying that medicine isn't an exact science still.
Komei, although he likes to bash on the ruling god of the H&F forum a bit too much, seems more like a true skeptic than a vegan nut to me.

i get the opposite vibes from him. he started off by saying that eating any form of meat is bad (aka vegan) and that any other diet is immoral and suboptimal (aka nut). he only switched to the "nutrition is too complex for us to understand" viewpoint after getting studybombed.

if he truly believed that nutrition is too complex to understand, his stance would be much less absolute. instead of saying "vegan is the only way," one might say "since nutrition is so complex and we don't have a firm grasp of it, why don't we examine the claims of different health organizations and various studies, draw some logical conclusions based on the information we have, and try out the diets that make sense for ourselves and see how my body responds to each."
Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
June 27 2013 16:36 GMT
#1082
Mh yeah forgot about his first post. But I know it's easy to go for absolutes even when it isn't your real stance. That's even why I have that sig after all... Well, I don't know then. Good thing I don't really care either...
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 16:49:18
June 27 2013 16:42 GMT
#1083
You are confusing me with the vegan guy, which is strange since you were debating him.

We know western diets are different and that they are bad because they are different. The question is, is it because they are high in fat and high in protein from animal products (meat, dairy). Or is it because they are high in carbs(rice, white bread, sugar, fruits). Or is it because people just eat too much of otherwise perfectly healthy foods.

That's the debate and the answer seems clear to me, based on the research out there.
Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
June 27 2013 16:50 GMT
#1084
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 23 2013 00:34 Komei wrote:
Meat is bad, animal protein is bad. The science is out there. People just don't want to believe it. And people like to listen to people that tell them their bad habits are good for them.

Few people consider the China study to be debunked.
Same thing is seen with Chinese, Koreans and Japanese that went to the US. First generation, similar in disease as people in Asia. Second generation, some more diseases as they adapt US diets. Third generation and there's almost no difference. Diabetes, cancer, obesity, heart disease, etc. It's caused by high fat high protein western diets with tons of processed foods and meat.
It's a pattern you see over and over in numerous studies. It's just that China Study was so big and so well done.

People here love fringe ideas. No idea why. There's the regulars with their ideas and there's not much room for other ideas. Other TL people that have different views and care about health and fitness just don't post here. Too much of a hassle.

Tons of meat-eating doctors and medical professionals know the meat-eating habit of the general population is bad. Doctors get patients very ill that eat badly. They tell them to eat more healthily but people just don't listen. At this point curing a disease by adjusting diet is considered an impossibility.
Even the doctors themselves often continue to eat meat. It's so deeply ingrained.


Mh no ? You didn't say eating meat is immoral but you did start off kinda absolute.
autoexec
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States530 Posts
June 27 2013 16:51 GMT
#1085
Quick question guys, where do I go to buy steroids? And how expensive are they exactly?
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 16:57:46
June 27 2013 16:53 GMT
#1086
This is the health forum. Please go to the drugs forum (is there one)? Try the drugs thread in general discussion maybe?
(Or try the weightlifting thread, lol)

Honestly, unless you are an elite athlete, there is no reason to ever abuse steroids. No need to get bigger than what can be naturally achieved. If you want to get bigger, you need to be cured of muscle dysmorphia aka male version of anorexia. It is a mental illness.
autoexec
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States530 Posts
June 27 2013 16:55 GMT
#1087
Steroids are nutrition. This is the General nutrition recommendations thread, and it is the place for it.
Sneakyz
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden2361 Posts
June 27 2013 17:06 GMT
#1088
I don't think we're allowed to discuss where you actually buy steroids on this forum, considering they are illegal in the US. The top athletes I think spend around 30-50k $ on drugs per year. 500mg of testosterone per week, which I think would be a fairly low dosage for competitive use, should be maybe 4-5k $ or so per year. I don't personally take them but this is what I've heard from people who do.
I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds.
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
June 27 2013 17:14 GMT
#1089
On June 28 2013 01:42 Komei wrote:
You are confusing me with the vegan guy, which is strange since you were debating him.

We know western diets are different and that they are bad because they are different. The question is, is it because they are high in fat and high in protein from animal products (meat, dairy). Or is it because they are high in carbs(rice, white bread, sugar, fruits). Or is it because people just eat too much of otherwise perfectly healthy foods.

That's the debate and the answer seems clear to me, based on the research out there.

oh you're right, sorry about that. i did confuse you with the other guy.

my post still stands, except for the "eating meat is immoral" part.
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
June 27 2013 17:16 GMT
#1090
Well, eating animals is better than eating kids. But I don't get the idea morality, or the lack thereof, is something that bothers you in your everyday life.
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
June 27 2013 17:26 GMT
#1091
huh? i don't follow...

i meant that sjphotographer is a nut because he thinks that eating meat is immoral. since i mistook you for sjphotographer in the above post, i wanted to edit out the part about "eating meat is immoral," since you did not claim that eating meat is immoral. you said it was bad for health.
autoexec
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States530 Posts
June 27 2013 17:40 GMT
#1092
Oh I didn't realize that steroids were illegal in the US Seems silly that they are though.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 21:14:00
June 27 2013 19:40 GMT
#1093
I think most people would recommend supplementing with creatine monohydrate before having you looking into steroids but I'm really quite uninformed on the subject. I would imagine it's advisable to maximize your potential as safely as possible and if you reach a limit, super-elite level, you could explore other options if you were comfortable with that.

I think gotunk swears by fish oil and vitamin D being better than steroids. I take them too but I don't know if I feel like I'm on roids lol. Part of it is gotunk is a super-saiyan.

Farewell PBU :\
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Vitruvian
Profile Joined September 2011
United States168 Posts
June 28 2013 03:56 GMT
#1094
On June 27 2013 06:09 Komei wrote:
The study doesn't say anything about the effect of serum lipid levels on CVD. And since Eshlow probably disputes that it does have an affect (it's probably either gluten or glucose), the fact that serum lipid levels are not much worse doesn't mean much, does it?

Anyway, these people already had CVD so by definition no research done on them can answer the question at hand. Only truths from mechanisms can be glanced at. Maybe losing weight improves lipid levels just as much as eating high saturated fat worsens it?

User was banned for this post.


Lol. I wonder why this one in particular?
solidbebe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4921 Posts
June 28 2013 09:28 GMT
#1095
Hes a PBU apparently

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696&currentpage=1598#31943
That's the 2nd time in a week I've seen someone sig a quote from this GD and I have never witnessed a sig quote happen in my TL history ever before. -Najda
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-28 14:36:59
June 28 2013 14:36 GMT
#1096
On June 28 2013 12:56 Vitruvian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2013 06:09 Komei wrote:
The study doesn't say anything about the effect of serum lipid levels on CVD. And since Eshlow probably disputes that it does have an affect (it's probably either gluten or glucose), the fact that serum lipid levels are not much worse doesn't mean much, does it?

Anyway, these people already had CVD so by definition no research done on them can answer the question at hand. Only truths from mechanisms can be glanced at. Maybe losing weight improves lipid levels just as much as eating high saturated fat worsens it?

User was banned for this post.


Lol. I wonder why this one in particular?


PBU plus

It's clear he didn't read the study, or if he did the level of spin is enormous.

The study talked about high sat fats + no starch diet... and it's effect on weight loss, serum lipid levels (which are cholesterol, LDL, HDL, triglycerides).

1. His premise is that saturated fats cause cardiovascular disease
2. These patients have cardiovascular disease.
3. If they eat a diet high in saturated fats, it should make the cardiovascular disease worse
4. The diet actually cause weight loss, and serum lipid levels to improve which means it is reversing cardiovascular disease
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15366 Posts
June 28 2013 18:20 GMT
#1097
Don't worry about it, he has been here a couple of times, and most likely will be back sooner or later
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
June 29 2013 17:11 GMT
#1098
On June 29 2013 03:20 zatic wrote:
Don't worry about it, he has been here a couple of times, and most likely will be back sooner or later


I bet every time I get suckered into a debate it's that guy. At least 5 or more times.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
SjPhotoGrapher
Profile Joined February 2013
181 Posts
June 30 2013 03:37 GMT
#1099
On June 28 2013 02:26 ieatkids5 wrote:
huh? i don't follow...

i meant that sjphotographer is a nut because he thinks that eating meat is immoral. since i mistook you for sjphotographer in the above post, i wanted to edit out the part about "eating meat is immoral," since you did not claim that eating meat is immoral. you said it was bad for health.


Okay so me and hundreds of thousands of people that think that supporting slaughter farms is a bad thing are nuts (especially people that have very high moral standards such as Buddhist Monks???)?

Ask how much trauma people go through at slaughter farms (especially the ones that slaughter animals) compared to people that pick fruits & veggies.

Slaughter farms are inhumane and eating meat is only contributing to these slaughter farms.
SjPhotoGrapher
Profile Joined February 2013
181 Posts
June 30 2013 03:46 GMT
#1100
On June 27 2013 07:01 eshlow wrote:
This is funny. Says he likes science, but only refers to the "authorities" while ignoring science. OK

If anyone actually wants my stance on the issue it is this:

~ Saturated fatty acids have been show to have very little effect if a small net positive on CVD risk.
~ PUFAs have been show to have a good net positive effect on CVD risk.

I do not refer to the wiki link because it presents misleading information. In comparison of SFA and PUFAs you'll see that PUFAs have a neutral to slightly positive effect compared to SFAs on decreasing CVD risk.

This does not support the conclusion that SFAs cause CVD as these people who are ignoring the science are claiming. It only shows that PUFAs are a bit better than SFAs at preventing heart disease, which I agree with given the literature and my statements above. SFAs in the diet are for the most part neutral, and are actually needed for steroid hormone reproduction as well as energy during exercise.

It is clear in the study I presented and those in the OP that SFAs do not cause heart disease.

Bad fat is bad. Bad fat is trans fat. Refined carbohydrates are also terrible, as are a specific type of PUFAs specifically pro-inflammatory linoleic acid (Omega 6s) which are prevalent in modern diets because of mass industrial seed oil processing such as safflower and other seed oils:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23386268


-------------------

In any case, given the other people who decry meat and "Paleo"

I wonder what people would say the Paleo studies done so far. This could be funny also.

-------------------

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v63/n8/abs/ejcn20094a.html

Show nested quote +
Metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet

Results: Compared with the baseline (usual) diet, we observed (a) significant reductions in BP associated with improved arterial distensibility (−3.1±2.9, P=0.01 and +0.19±0.23, P=0.05);(b) significant reduction in plasma insulin vs time AUC, during the OGTT (P=0.006); and (c) large significant reductions in total cholesterol, low-density lipoproteins (LDL) and triglycerides (−0.8±0.6 (P=0.007), −0.7±0.5 (P=0.003) and −0.3±0.3 (P=0.01) mmol/l respectively). In all these measured variables, either eight or all nine participants had identical directional responses when switched to paleolithic type diet, that is, near consistently improved status of circulatory, carbohydrate and lipid metabolism/physiology.

Conclusions: Even short-term consumption of a paleolithic type diet improves BP and glucose tolerance, decreases insulin secretion, increases insulin sensitivity and improves lipid profiles without weight loss in healthy sedentary humans.


Improves all blood markers including BP and lipid profiles.

-------------------

http://www.cardiab.com/content/8/1/35

Show nested quote +
Beneficial effects of a Paleolithic diet on cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot study

Results: Study participants had on average a diabetes duration of 9 years, a mean HbA1c of 6,6% units by Mono-S standard and were usually treated with metformin alone (3 subjects) or metformin in combination with a sulfonylurea (3 subjects) or a thiazolidinedione (3 subjects). Mean average dose of metformin was 1031 mg per day. Compared to the diabetes diet, the Paleolithic diet resulted in lower mean values of HbA1c (-0.4% units, p = 0.01), triacylglycerol (-0.4 mmol/L, p = 0.003), diastolic blood pressure (-4 mmHg, p = 0.03), weight (-3 kg, p = 0.01), BMI (-1 kg/m2, p = 0.04) and waist circumference (-4 cm, p = 0.02), and higher mean values of high density lipoprotein cholesterol (+0.08 mmol/L, p = 0.03). The Paleolithic diet was mainly lower in cereals and dairy products, and higher in fruits, vegetables, meat and eggs, as compared with the Diabetes diet. Further, the Paleolithic diet was lower in total energy, energy density, carbohydrate, dietary glycemic load, saturated fatty acids and calcium, and higher in unsaturated fatty acids, dietary cholesterol and several vitamins. Dietary GI was slightly lower in the Paleolithic diet (GI = 50) than in the Diabetic diet (GI = 55).

Conclusion: Over a 3-month study period, a Paleolithic diet improved glycemic control and several cardiovascular risk factors compared to a Diabetes diet in patients with type 2 diabetes.


Yes, the Paleo diet is BETTER than the diabetes diet at improving blood markers in diabetics. LOL

-------------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17583796

Show nested quote +
A Palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a Mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease.

RESULTS: Over 12 weeks, there was a 26% decrease of AUC Glucose(0-120) (p = 0.0001) in the Palaeolithic group and a 7% decrease (p = 0.08) in the Consensus group. The larger (p = 0.001) improvement in the Palaeolithic group was independent (p = 0.0008) of change in waist circumference (-5.6 cm in the Palaeolithic group, -2.9 cm in the Consensus group; p = 0.03). In the study population as a whole, there was no relationship between change in AUC Glucose(0-120) and changes in weight (r = -0.06, p = 0.9) or waist circumference (r = 0.01, p = 1.0). There was a tendency for a larger decrease of AUC Insulin(0-120) in the Palaeolithic group, but because of the strong association between change in AUC Insulin(0-120) and change in waist circumference (r = 0.64, p = 0.0003), this did not remain after multivariate analysis.

CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION:

A Palaeolithic diet may improve glucose tolerance independently of decreased waist circumference.


Paleo outperforms the "heart healthy" Mediterrean diet.

----------------------

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v62/n5/abs/1602790a.html

Show nested quote +
Effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers

Results: Mean weight decreased by 2.3 kg (P<0.001), body mass index by 0.8 (P<0.001), waist circumference by 0.5 cm (P=0.001), systolic blood pressure by 3 mm Hg (P=0.03) and plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 by 72% (P=0.020). Regarding nutrient intake, intake of energy decreased by 36%, and other effects were also observed, both favourable (fat composition, antioxidants, potassium-sodium rate) and unfavourable (calcium).

Conclusion: This short-term intervention showed some favourable effects by the diet, but further studies, including control group, are needed.


Good results + recommendation for more studies. I hope so.

---------------------

http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf

Show nested quote +
XLV. PROLONGED MEAT DIETS WITH A STUDY OF KIDNEY
FUNCTION AND KETOSIS.*

Two normal men volunteered to live solely on meat for one
year, which gave us an unusual opportunity of studying the
effects of this diet. The term “meat,” as used by us, included
both the lean and the fat portions of animals. The subjects
derived most of their calories from fat and the diet was quite
different from what one, who uses the term “meat” as including
chiefly lean muscle, would expect.

Conclusion and Summary

1. Two men lived on an exclusive meat diet for 1 year and a
third man for 10 days. The relative amounts of lean and fat,
meat ingested were left to the instinctive choice of the individuals.
2. The protein content varied from 100 to 140 gm., the fat from
by guest on June 26, 2013 http://www.jbc.org/ Downloaded from
W. S. McClellan and E. F. Du Bois 667
200 to 300 gm., the carbohydrate, derived entirely from the meat,
from 7 to 12 gm., and the fuel value from 2000 to 3100 calories.
3. At the end of the year, the subjects were mentally alert,
physically active, and showed no specific physical changes in any
system of the body.
4. During the 1st week, all three men lost weight, due to a
shift in the water content of the body while adjusting itself to the
low carbohydrate diet. Thereafter, their weights remained
practically constant.
5. In the prolonged test, the blood pressure of one man re-
mained constant; the systolic pressure of the other decreased 20
mm. and the diastolic pressure remained uniform.
6. The control of the bowels was not disturbed while the sub-
jects were on prescribed meat diet. In one instance, when the
proportion of protein calories in the diet exceeded 40 per cent,
a diarrhea developed.
7. Vitamin deficiencies did not appear.
8. The total acidity of the urine during the meat diet was in-
creased to 2 or 3 times that of the acidity on mixed diets and ace-
tonuria was present throughout the periods of exclusive meat.
9. Urine examinations, determinations of the nitrogenous
constituents of the blood, and kidney function tests revealed no
evidence of kidney damage.
10. While on the meat diet, the men metabolized foodstuffs with
FA: G ratios between 1.9 and 3.0 and excreted from 0.4 to 7.2 gm.
of acetone bodies per day.
11. In these trained subjects, the clinical observations and
laboratory studies gave no evidence that any ill effects had
occurred from the prolonged use of the exclusive meat diet.


No adverse effects from eating only meat and animal fat for a year.


No offense but this debate is useless and a waste of time.....why go on about "scientific" evidence or articles when they can be cherry picked?

It's almost as bad as debating religion or politics.......

I'd go with the advice of the foundation for heart health (which says that a diet low in saturated fat & cholesterol lowers CVD risk & cancer risks) before any of the cherry picked articles.

The Paleo diet in my mind is a joke as I said before most were lucky to live past 16 in that era......us humans were not born with legs that are fast enough to chase down deer or teeth strong enough to chew into a deer let alone claws or night vision.

We were scavengers back hundreds of thousands of years ago (even in the Paleo era) not to mention humans originate from a tropical area where fruits, veggies, nuts, etc were abundant.

I'd take the advice of cardiologists & the heart associations & common sense before any cherry picked articles.
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