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General nutrition recommendations - Page 52

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Sneakyz
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden2361 Posts
June 25 2013 09:36 GMT
#1021
On June 25 2013 11:05 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:
Okay show me one valid article that shows that a piece of chicken or any other meat that is dead has more nutrition than a still alive pound of spinach or any fruit such as watermelon......where are the antioxidents, living enzymes, tons of vitamins, and fiber that you would get out of a piece of fruit or green leafy viegitables in meat?

Compare a pound of bananas to a pound of chicken. Does chicken have a ton of electrolytes, tons of vitamins, anti oxidants, flavanoids, and is it living food?

And thus you reach the following conclusion: Eat meat for macronutrients and veggies/fruit for micronutrients. Where have I heard that before...
I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds.
Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
June 25 2013 10:14 GMT
#1022
I wasn't sure if I should PM it or not.
Guess not...
So SJPhotoGrapher. First forget about what I said about spirituality. It's from a french saying and I don't think it applies to you anyway.
Second, you should consider that this place isn't the best for your words. Most people here still live in the illusion and will do their best to justify it. The speech that appearance doesn't matter and that eating vegan will extend their life (let's say, winning 10 years out of 80) at the cost of what they are working hard to achieve (muscular body etc) isn't likely to be welcomed. As far as they are concerned, we are the crazy ones, dedicating our lives to spirituality when we could be working out and amassing chicks. I'm exagerating of course, but I think you get the idea.

It's very nice of you to try, but I learned that most people don't want to even think about that, and all efforts spent going against that is wasted. I mean, the dude telling buddhism is a religion should hint you on the overall ignorance that surrounds the matter. We are a minority, and we can't force that to change.

Not a day where I will be making new friends, I guess...
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-25 11:22:39
June 25 2013 11:04 GMT
#1023
I quite fancy the concept of humans being objects of massive consumption. How many chickens have to die for me to spread my lats and fly? I don't know but i hope it's a lot.

On spirituality. Let me impart some bro-science knowledge.
I go to the gym pick some heavy shit up off the ground and put it down again. It hurts, i'm destroying myself, inducing micro tears in my muscle fibres.
I go home and eat a ton of dead animals; they are the band-aids for my war wounds.
I go to sleep and wake up bigger than i was yesterday.

Anabolic - Catabolic - Anabolic

I am a majestic phoenix bursting into flames and being born anew.

Bro do you even reincarnate?

Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
June 25 2013 11:15 GMT
#1024
And if it doesn't work, most likely it will be because chickens don't fly to begin with.
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
June 25 2013 11:28 GMT
#1025
No, the logical inference would be that i require additional chickens.
Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
June 25 2013 11:54 GMT
#1026
Bwahaha nice edit on your previous post ^^
You should write a book about that. Title could be "Work out for buddhists : Get your spirit a six pack !"
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20010 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-25 15:16:52
June 25 2013 15:12 GMT
#1027
For my going to the gym is my spiritual experience. I'm sure SJPhoto does meditation if he's a proper buddhist and for me, going into the state of mind required for me to clean and jerk 160 kilos is something I cant find anywhere else and something I can't imagine living out with. When I have any sort of life problem I go to my church (the gym) and I sort my problems out with a barbell. I can't say i've ever left a religious church feeling better than when I went in but I can absolutely say i've never left a gym not feeling better than when i went in.

The fact my gym also turns happens to make me stronger, better looking, and healthier is just icing on the cake.

Really veered away from nutrition here. Still very curious to see the causal relationship (NOT CORRELATION) between not eating meat and longevity. If someone showed me a study that eating a diet of unprocessed meats, fruits, veggies; and that being a strength athlete over a 100kg you die significantly younger than a vegan who does not lift heavy weights, I would actually probably seriously review my current lifestyle.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-25 15:26:02
June 25 2013 15:21 GMT
#1028
This is what you get when people who don't know anything about science try to talk about science.

None of these people even know what the roles of cholesterol, serum triglycerides, LDL, HDL, and other things do in the body. So when they make up shit it doesn't make any sense.

I'm not really sure how it's "us" living under the illusion. lol.

None of them even read the studies in the OP and tried to refute them because they can't.

Prove to me with your scientific evidence (INTERVENTIONAL STUDIES LIKE I PROVIDE IN HERE) that show:

1. NON processed meat is bad for you
2. Saturated fat is bad for you
3. LDL-Cholesterol is bad for you aside from the subtype ApoB has been proven bad, but not the other subtypes

Here you guys, have at it. I want to see your great understanding of science.


+ Show Spoiler +
The myths and facts about saturated fats and cholesterol

First, forget what you have heard about saturated fats and cholesterol. We will look at some of the actual science and biological processes surrounding these to determine whether they are beneficial or harmful.

One of the most important analysis of dietary guidelines of the past decades came out last year in Nutritional Journal covering a wide range of topics including saturated fats. This analysis specifically looked at the dietary recommendations for Americans even as the obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, etc. rates continue to rise massively in the US and in most industrialized countries.

Let's go back to the beginning.

There are two main hypotheses to describe the development of cardiovascular disease (among other factors). These are the lipid hypothesis and the chronic endothelial injury hypothesis. Currently, the lipid hypothesis predominates the medical industry; however, as stated in the above analysis of the data there is evidence that may show that it is based, at least partially, on incorrect science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_endothelial_injury_hypothesis

One recent movie, Fat head, looked at exploring the origins of why the lipid hypothesis is supposedly based on faulty science. A bit more on that here:

+ Show Spoiler +


Having looked into the science, I personally do not support the lipid hypothesis and I will detail information later regarding saturated fatty acids and cholesterol later with studies to support why it is likely incorrect.

Let's take a step back.

So what do saturated fats do in the body? What does cholesterol do in the body?

Saturated Fat

There are multiple sources of dietary fatty acids. Lauric acid (12), Myristic acid (14), Palmitic acid (16), and Stearic acid (18) are some of the most common. The only difference between these fatty acids are how many carbons are in the chain length, but as we shall see each of these have different effects on the body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauric_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristic_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitic_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid

Short chain triglycerides I'm going to briefly mention since we have little control over intake of them (as our gut bacteria produces them). However, if you have had issues with digestive problems, food poisoning, and anti-biotics where your gut flora has been decimated it may be a good idea to invest in some good probiotics. In particular, Butyric acid (4 carbon) saturated fatty acid is produced by several gut flora species and has favorable effects on our metabolism and protects against cancer.

Medium chain triglycerides (particular 6-12 carbon fatty acids) of which Lauric acid (12) is an example are extremely beneficial for health. Coconut oil and other coconut products contain a lot of MCTs specifically Lauric acid (66%). MCTs are useful for a variety of reasoning including weight loss -- increases oxidation of fatty acids, increases HDL-cholesterol (e.g. the "good" one), anti-bacterial, anti-oxidant, and is anti-inflammatory.

Most types of animal products have some combination of the long chain triglycerides which include the aforementioned Myristic acid, Palmitic acid, and Stearic acid. Each of these have slightly different effects on the body.

All excess energy in the body is specifically converted into palmitic acid, which will make up the majority of the "triglycerides" that you see in a blood panel. Fructose sugar in particular, is a toxin in the body. When it enters the body through the digestive tract, the liver must convert it into a usable form of energy. The energy form that it is converted into palmitic acid -- a saturated fatty acid.


Cholesterol

Cholesterol is a very, very, very important substance in the body. Cholesterol is in every cell of the body and helps to maintain the fluidity of the cell membranes, and regulation of substances passing through them. Additionally, it is intimately involved in nervous system regulation and makes up a large portion of the myelin sheath that speeds up nerve conduction in the body. Additionally, cholesterol is the backbone on which steroid hormones such as testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, etc. are created, and it is also a precursor to vitamin D as sun is required to photo-convert 7-dehydro-cholesterol into proto-vitamin D. Cholesterol is utilized in the adrenal glands to make cortisol and aldolsterone which help regulate fight-or-flight response, and sodium content in the body. Also, cholesterol is converted in the liver into bile salts which the gallbladder emits to help emulsify fatty acids and absorb many of the fat soluble vitamins -- A, E, D, K -- from dietary sources.

The transport of...

Since cholesterol is a hydrophobic substance, it cannot be transported in the body as it would stick to the vessel walls. Thus, the body creates HDL and LDL which are are lipoproteins (e.g. high density lipoprotein and low density lipoprotein) to transport cholesterol in the blood stream. Lipoproteins are composed of fat and protein. The "fatty" part binds to cholesterol so it can carry it, and the protein portion of it is hydrophilic so it can be dissolved into the blood until it gets to where the body needs it.

HDL carries cholesterol back to the liver, LDL carries cholesterol away from the liver to other tissues.


Lipid panels

So let's talk lipid panels.

When you see LDL and HDL in a blood panel it refers to how much LDL there is, and how much HDL there is.

--------------------

Total cholesterol level -- total cholesterol is technically a misnomer since it is a summation of all of the components of lipids in the blood sample (e.g. what a typical blood stream of someone looks like it). It isn't just total "cholesterol" which would just be a summation of HDL and LDL.

Triglyceride level -- triglycerides represent the amount of fatty acids -- palmitic acid mostly -- that is circulating in your blood stream. Triglycerides are the primary source of energy in the body, especially during aerobic exercise. Glucose is only primarily utilized at anaerobic threshold or above.

HDL cholesterol -- represents the amount of HDL in the body.

LDL cholesterol -- represents the amount of LDL in the body. There's actually lots of different subclasses of LDL proteins which a typical lipid panel won't show. Specifically, oxidized LDL (oLDL) or specifically Apolipoprotein B (or ApoB for short) is extremely strongly correlated with the development of cardiovascular disease. Apo B is sometimes referred to as small, dense LDL.

Therefore, you may have high LDL, but if you have a lot of "fluffier" LDL you are at a relatively low risk for cardiovascular disease. If you have low LDL but a lot of the "small, dense" oLDL / ApoB then you are at high risk for CVD. This is why it is important to get LDL subclasses checked even though most doctor's don't know this.... LDL matters little if you don't know if you have the big, fluffy or the small, dense.

There's actually three other classes of lipoproteins that carry fats in the body. Chylomicrons carry triglycerides from the digestive tract into the body. VLDL (very low density lipoprotein) and IDL (intermediate density lipoprotein) also carry fatty acids, but typically these aren't measured.

--------------------

Why are these supposed to be bad?

HDL, LDL, Cholesterol, triglycerdies, etc are neither "good" or "bad." They are needed in the body for various purposes. Only when they get out of whack does it means something is wrong.

According to the lipid hypothesis, high triglycerides and high LDL and low HDL are supposed to contribute towards heart disease.

Picture of atherosclerotic development
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The development of atherosclerotic lesions show increased fatty accumulations including cholesterol filtrates at the site of the lesion. Sounds correct, right?

Therefore, if you can prove that if high dietary fat intake -- especially saturated fats -- (1) raises blood lipids and (2) increases rates of atherosclerosis then it would be a cause and effect relationship.

Is it cause and effect? Or is it something else.

The chronic endothelial dysfunction theory better fits the data, especially in conjunction with nutritional studies regarding low carbohydrate versus low fat diets. It's funny but every time I browse the literature, there are only good results from low carbohydrate (which include "high fat" and "high protein") diets as opposed to low fat diets.

For example, this mayoclinic study says:

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/78/11/1331.full.pdf
Effect of a High Saturated Fat and No-Starch Diet on Serum Lipid Subfractions in Patients With Documented Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease

• Results: In patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, mean ± SD total body weight (TBW) decreased 5.2%±2.5% (P<.001) as did body fat percentage (P=.02). Nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopic analysis of lipids showed decreases in total triglycerides (P<.001), very low-density lipoprotein (VLDL) triglycerides (P<.001), VLDL size (P<.001), large VLDL concentration (P<.001), and medium VLDL concentration (P<.001). High-density lipoprotein (HDL) and LDL concentrations were unchanged, but HDL size (P=.01) and LDL size (P=.02) increased. Patients with polycystic ovary syndrome lost 14.3%±20.3% of TBW (P=.008) and patients with reactive hypoglycemia lost 19.9%±8.7% of TBW (P<.001) at 24 and 52 weeks, respectively, without adverse effects on serum lipids.


Lipid panels improved on almost every measurable and patients lost weight on a high fat no starch diet. And they had cardiovascular disease. So basically, this diet improved their cardiovascular disease.

Take for example, this non-biased search boolean on low carbohydrate vs. low fat:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=low carbohydrate low fat

The first study suggests:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa022637

Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight lost.

This finding should be interpreted with caution, given the small magnitude of overall and between-group differences in weight loss in these markedly obese subjects and the short duration of the study. Future studies evaluating long-term cardiovascular outcomes are needed before a carbohydrate-restricted diet can be endorsed.


Of course, they ended with the cautioning, but there are many other studies.

The second study suggests:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/4/1617.full?l=5579341

The very low carbohydrate diet group lost more weight (8.5 ± 1.0 vs. 3.9 ± 1.0 kg; P < 0.001) and more body fat (4.8 ± 0.67 vs. 2.0 ± 0.75 kg; P < 0.01) than the low fat diet group. Mean levels of blood pressure, lipids, fasting glucose, and insulin were within normal ranges in both groups at baseline. Although all of these parameters improved over the course of the study, there were no differences observed between the two diet groups at 3 or 6 months. β- Hydroxybutyrate increased significantly in the very low carbohydrate group at 3 months (P = 0.001). Based on these data, a very low carbohydrate diet is more effective than a low fat diet for short-term weight loss and, over 6 months, is not associated with deleterious effects on important cardiovascular risk factors in healthy women.


So they are similar.... oh wait, but hey we didn't look at the study's methods.

Subjects were randomized to 6 months of either an ad libitum very low carbohydrate diet or a calorie-restricted diet with 30% of the calories as fat.


So the low carbohydrate high fat diet did just as well as a calorie restricted lower fat diet. Why didn't they restrict kcals for the high fat diet too? Wouldn't that make a difference as well?

The third study suggests:
http://www.annals.org/content/140/10/769.short

Results: A greater proportion of the low-carbohydrate diet group than the low-fat diet group completed the study (76% vs. 57%; P = 0.02). At 24 weeks, weight loss was greater in the low-carbohydrate diet group than in the low-fat diet group (mean change, −12.9% vs. −6.7%; P < 0.001). Patients in both groups lost substantially more fat mass (change, −9.4 kg with the low-carbohydrate diet vs. −4.8 kg with the low-fat diet) than fat-free mass (change, −3.3 kg vs. −2.4 kg, respectively). Compared with recipients of the low-fat diet, recipients of the low-carbohydrate diet had greater decreases in serum triglyceride levels (change, −0.84 mmol/L vs. −0.31 mmol/L [−74.2 mg/dL vs. −27.9 mg/dL]; P = 0.004) and greater increases in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (0.14 mmol/L vs. −0.04 mmol/L [5.5 mg/dL vs. −1.6 mg/dL]; P < 0.001). Changes in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol level did not differ statistically (0.04 mmol/L [1.6 mg/dL] with the low-carbohydrate diet and −0.19 mmol/L [−7.4 mg/dL] with the low-fat diet; P = 0.2). Minor adverse effects were more frequent in the low-carbohydrate diet group.


So higher retention rate with low carbohydrate. Check. Greater weight loss with low carbohydrate. Check. Low carb decreased serum triglycerides more. Check. Low carb diet increases HDL more. Check. Not sure what the minor adverse effects were, but they sure weren't big enough to have the retention rate go down more than the other group.

So I checked to at least 20 of the top results and low carbohydrate is at least equally or more effective than low fat diets (when compared) at both losing weight and on markers of cardiovascular disease risk. Check them out if you don't believe me.

Meta studies such at this one show similar findings.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2008.00518.x/full

There are few studies comparing the effects of low-carbohydrate/high-protein diets with low-fat/high-carbohydrate diets for obesity and cardiovascular disease risk. This systematic review focuses on randomized controlled trials of low-carbohydrate diets compared with low-fat/low-calorie diets. Studies conducted in adult populations with mean or median body mass index of ≥28 kg m−2 were included. Thirteen electronic databases were searched and randomized controlled trials from January 2000 to March 2007 were evaluated. Trials were included if they lasted at least 6 months and assessed the weight-loss effects of low-carbohydrate diets against low-fat/low-calorie diets. For each study, data were abstracted and checked by two researchers prior to electronic data entry. The computer program Review Manager 4.2.2 was used for the data analysis. Thirteen articles met the inclusion criteria. There were significant differences between the groups for weight, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triacylglycerols and systolic blood pressure, favouring the low-carbohydrate diet. There was a higher attrition rate in the low-fat compared with the low-carbohydrate groups suggesting a patient preference for a low-carbohydrate/high-protein approach as opposed to the Public Health preference of a low-fat/high-carbohydrate diet. Evidence from this systematic review demonstrates that low-carbohydrate/high-protein diets are more effective at 6 months and are as effective, if not more, as low-fat diets in reducing weight and cardiovascular disease risk up to 1 year. More evidence and longer-term studies are needed to assess the long-term cardiovascular benefits from the weight loss achieved using these diets.


Honestly, how much data do you need to accumulate to prove that "high fat" diets do not cause cardiovascular disease. Saturated fat, and cholesterol don't cause cardiovascular disease.

So going back to specifically something like eggs which have a bunch of cholesterol and fat in them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22037012
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20683785
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991244
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21776466
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19369056
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21134328
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15164336
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991244
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18203890
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17531457
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16340654

The evidence vindicates saturated fats risk on heart disease.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract
http://www.ajcn.org/content/80/5/1175.full.pdf html <-- decreased risk in post menopausal women with increased sat fat intake
http://healthydietsandscience.blogspot.com/2011/03/high-saturated-fat-diet-gives.html
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/78/11/1331.full.pdf
etc.

In the same line this is why whole milk is healthier than skim milk:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dairy-fat-and-diabetes.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20372173
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17925824
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11350992

Another interesting article that was ahead of its time:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934396004561

So I hate to beat the drum on things I've already covered but the lipid hypothesis really does not make sense when you look at the literature.

When you find studies that support the role of fats in the development in cardiovascular disease and look at some of the specifics of the diet they ate they usually contain large amounts processed fats such as trans fats (which are notoriously bad for you).

This is to say that NORMAL sources of fats and oils such as animal fats, eggs, milk, butter, etc. are good for you. Industrial processed fats such as margarine, deep fried foods, vegetable oils, etc. in general are bad for you.

So what actually causes cardiovascular disease if it's not saturated fats and cholesterol?

Remember what I said before about lipid profiles?

They indicate something is wrong but they don't indicate what is wrong. The lipid hypothesis takes the incorrect step of saying that the lipids themselves cause the problems.

So that leaves us with the chronic endothelial injury hypothesis.

What likely happens is multifold.

1. Dietary effects of high carbohydrate diets (especially fructose) lead to increases in oxidized LDL. Oxidized LDL can get "stuck" in the endothelial wall which aggravates the tissues. The body sends macrophages to help try to clean up the damage. Inflammation results and the chain reaction continues.

2. Ingestion of large amounts of carbohydrates (especially fructose) lead to increases in advanced glycated end products. Fructose is 9x more likely than glucose to form AGE's by the way.

3. Trans fats.

4. Omega 3 vs Omega 6 fatty acids. Normal ancestral consumption in about 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. Normal consumption now is in 10:1 to 20:1 or higher ratios, especially in fried foods.

5. Dysregulation/dysfunction of the body's systems.

Leptin resistance contibutes to obesity. High carbohydrate/sugar intake contributes to metabolic syndrome and weight gain. All of these contribute to insulin resistance. Insulin resistance starts to contribute to dyslipedemia. You get obese, diabetes, high blood pressure, poor lipid panels. Then you get cancer, stroke, heart attack, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose#Health_effects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-alcoholic_fatty_liver_disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_syndrome

If you are obese or have documented cardiovascular disease et al. you should know that some of the disease can be reversed to an extent with a low carbohydrate, ketogenic, or Paleolithic diet.


Videos if you don't like reading:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exi7O1li_wA





So in the end I hope that this was helpful and that you learned something about nutrition.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-25 16:47:20
June 25 2013 16:24 GMT
#1029
I am not arguing about science as I recognize I don't know shit about it, neither am I really interested to be honest.
Although I still have a thing in mind that you may help clarify.
When I say that vegan may increase longevity, it's refering to the idea that digesting meat puts more strain on the digestive system than vegetables, and that in a lifestyle where everything is healthy (no stress, healthy food etc), the digestive system will most likely be the first to show signs of age, leading to death not because of a disease, heart attack or anything, just because of aging process. If that's somewhat true and that meat indeed puts more strain on the digestive system, well, that's as far as I can go for meat being bad. If that's wrong I'm fine with it, I don't plan on stopping meat as long as my body enjoys it.

As far as the illusion stuff goes, I guess I owe apologies, that was a gross generalisation on my end to make photographer understand that he is wasting his time. I don't know any of you guys enough to make that kind of call seriousy. So yeah, my apologies.
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
June 25 2013 16:45 GMT
#1030
yesterday's dinner:

12oz perfectly marbled herb roasted prime rib
baked sweet potato with butter
steamed asparagus, broccoli, and carrots drizzled with a spoonful of olive oil

being back at home has its perks!

If someone showed me a study that eating a diet of unprocessed meats, fruits, veggies; and that being a strength athlete over a 100kg you die significantly younger than a vegan who does not lift heavy weights, I would actually probably seriously review my current lifestyle.

my thoughts exactly. well, except that i'm not a strength athlete over 100kg. but the point is, it's not like we are not open minded to other diets. it's just that right now, based on the knowledge that we have, the studies and research that's out there, the best choice right now is to eat unprocessed meats, veggies, fruit, etc. if someone came along and convincingly demonstrated that eating vegetables is terrible for you, then of course i'd change my diet.
Schwopzi
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands954 Posts
June 25 2013 19:31 GMT
#1031
On June 26 2013 01:45 ieatkids5 wrote:
yesterday's dinner:

12oz perfectly marbled herb roasted prime rib
baked sweet potato with butter
steamed asparagus, broccoli, and carrots drizzled with a spoonful of olive oil

being back at home has its perks!

Show nested quote +
If someone showed me a study that eating a diet of unprocessed meats, fruits, veggies; and that being a strength athlete over a 100kg you die significantly younger than a vegan who does not lift heavy weights, I would actually probably seriously review my current lifestyle.

my thoughts exactly. well, except that i'm not a strength athlete over 100kg. but the point is, it's not like we are not open minded to other diets. it's just that right now, based on the knowledge that we have, the studies and research that's out there, the best choice right now is to eat unprocessed meats, veggies, fruit, etc. if someone came along and convincingly demonstrated that eating vegetables is terrible for you, then of course i'd change my diet.


All I ever see in studies is that overconsuming obese people develop pathological conditions due to their eating habits. And ofcourse you get obese easily if you sit on your ass all day and consume meat like you're a freakin powerlifting construction worker.
I'd really like to see some real evidence about vegans being healthier instead of paleo-like thought concepts (herpderp paleo age people must've been healthier, herp derp living fruit bro) which are fine as a starting point for research but not much more then that. And really, this everlasting pointing at the china study without even bothering to look into the research data but just saying "the china study proves vegans are healthy" in different shapes and forms (which just shows you read something from a researcher that drew some damn far fetched and unbased conclusions) is just SO FUCKING ANNOYING.
Only the dead have seen the end of war
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 01:55:13
June 26 2013 01:54 GMT
#1032
It's about saturated fat and cholesterol. Click the wiki pages Eshlow linked. It shows that all major textbooks say there's a link between saturated fat and heart disease. Eshlow himself study bombs it.

Whether vegans are healthier than athletes or whatever comparison, I care less about that.

Don't get me started on Paleo, lol. Fad diet with the craziest back-story ever. What snake oil salesmen can come up with, amazing creativity.
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20010 Posts
June 26 2013 04:00 GMT
#1033
On June 26 2013 10:54 Komei wrote:
It's about saturated fat and cholesterol. Click the wiki pages Eshlow linked. It shows that all major textbooks say there's a link between saturated fat and heart disease. Eshlow himself study bombs it.

Whether vegans are healthier than athletes or whatever comparison, I care less about that.

Don't get me started on Paleo, lol. Fad diet with the craziest back-story ever. What snake oil salesmen can come up with, amazing creativity.


What are the effects of a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet in comparison with those of a higher-fat, lower-carbohydrate diet? The response differs by the 2 main types of hyperlipidemia: simple hypercholesterolemia and combined hyperlipidemia. In our studies of simple hypercholesterolemia in men, a fat intake <25% of energy and a carbohydrate intake >60% of energy was associated with a sustained increase in triacylglycerol of 40%, a decrease in HDL cholesterol of 3.5%, and no further decrease in LDL in comparison with higher fat intakes (5). In contrast, a low-fat diet in persons with combined hyperlipidemia caused no worsening of triacylglycerol or HDL, but intakes of fat >40% of energy and of carbohydrate <45% of energy for 2 y were associated with a lower triacylglycerol concentration at a stable weight (6). In the subjects of Mozaffarian et al, a greater saturated fat intake paralleled a total fat intake, which ranged from 18% to 32% of energy in the first to fourth quartiles. Modest favorable trends in triacylglycerol and HDL-cholesterol concentrations were observed with higher fat intakes.


Bad fats (and food in general) will promote heart disease. Fat is not bad. Bad fat is bad. Good fat is good.

The paleo diet is perfectly healthy. I'd agree the back-story is a lot of bullshit but the diet itself is great.
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
June 26 2013 05:47 GMT
#1034
ahhh just the circle of life in tlhf.

I want to lose weight! ----> i want to get big! ------> Meat and fat is bad for you! ----> repeat


I still find it hilarious that out of all the vegans that posted here, I can always expect the same thing in every post.
1. china study
2. appeal to authority
3. Supplies zero scientific evidence
4. Refers to some bias vegan propoganda website
5. blames eshlow for cherry picking
6. constantly ignores all posts proving them wrong
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
KaoReal
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada340 Posts
June 26 2013 09:20 GMT
#1035
Sorry if this has been answered either directly or in a way that is over my head, but: can I use a high EPA/DHA Omega 3 supplement to help bring my omega 3:6 ratio closer to 1:1? Is it the same as adding more fish or whatever into my diet? I ask because it seems pretty tricky to actually get a balanced 3:6 ratio in a diet, so it'd be great to be able to use a supplement to remedy the situation. For what it's worth, I plan to take 1.5g EPA 1g DHA from this stuff: http://ca.bodybuilding.com/store/asc/sea.html?CJAID=10409943&CJPID=3776926&_requestid=3973052
I guess I'd still need to do some math on how much 3/6 I'm getting from my diet.
Life can only be understood backwards, but must be lived forward
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
June 26 2013 09:39 GMT
#1036
just taking a quick glance at the price, isn't it cheaper to just buy regular fish oil?

that nutrasea original liquid is $22, 40 servings per container, each serving has 1500mg of omega 3.
so 2727mg per dollar

random fish oil brand i found on amazon: $20, 180 softgels, each gel has 700mg.
so 6300mg per dollar
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B3Y7TX8/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00B3Y7TX8&linkCode=as2&tag=bpom3-20

(i didn't convert the prices using the exchange rate cuz they're almost the same anyways)
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 15:17:06
June 26 2013 15:07 GMT
#1037
On June 26 2013 14:47 AoN.DimSum wrote:
ahhh just the circle of life in tlhf.

I want to lose weight! ----> i want to get big! ------> Meat and fat is bad for you! ----> repeat


I still find it hilarious that out of all the vegans that posted here, I can always expect the same thing in every post.
1. china study
2. appeal to authority
3. Supplies zero scientific evidence
4. Refers to some bias vegan propoganda website
5. blames eshlow for cherry picking
6. constantly ignores all posts proving them wrong


Get back to me when you have atherosclerosis at age 50. Let's see how 'hilarious' it all is then. I can already imagine the conversation with your doctor.
"But eating so much saturated fat, didn't you realize the risk you put yourself in?"
"But my diet was fine, no gluten, no sugar, low on carbs, lot's of protein. Ooh btw doc, saturated fat is good for you. It being bad is just a myth. Eshlow and fringe doctor said so."
*doctor facepalms*


Sad thing is, these paleo guys probably have family members on cholesterol-lowering drugs.
I know most vegans and vegetarians have. But I guess those people just need to eat eggs&bacon with coffee every morning and the are alright.

Funny how you say we can both appeal to authority, but we also need to post propaganda vegan sites. Haha...


I am aware on how the US food industry 'spices up' all processed foods by adding salt, sugar fat and some MSG/similar compounds. But there is also a debate on fat vs protein vs carbs and saturated fats vs unsaturated fats.
It can't be that saturated fat in lean meat is healthy but the same type of fat in bacon is unhealthy.
One side says carbs cause heart disease, the other says (saturated) fat does. So it's not about processed foods vs
'real' foods.
I agree a paleo diet can be better than the SAD. But that doesn't mean the paleo diet is a good diet. Any time you are dieting you are already restricting calories. And processed foods in the US are so bad, going without them is an instant improvement.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 15:10:10
June 26 2013 15:09 GMT
#1038
You still haven't done anything we've asked you to do other than post, again, "You don't know what you're talking about and are wrong." (paraphrased)

Can you provide the requested articles/studies? This should be simple if you're passionate about convincing people to your diet/lifestyle/view.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Komei
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 15:26:34
June 26 2013 15:21 GMT
#1039
Obviously, I refuse to do that. Go google yourself. It's not hard. Not gonna engage in a cherry-picking contest with a ban-happy moderator.

Go out there on youtube or something and listen to MDs and PhD people from either side. Go read the wikipedia page. Go talk to your family doctor. Then decide.

Are you guys really saying that if you follow the studies you come to a different conclusion than the conclusion those that were professionally trained to interpret and care for studies have?
I am just confused why you people care about studies so much when mainstream science, which is based on studies, has drawn opposite conclusions.
Are you saying science on nutrition has gone rogue and their method is different from what is used in other fields?

Also, I doubt the average TL person can actually read a real study properly. If Eshlow can't I don't see why random people here can.

As for Eshlows 3 points, go read your own wiki pages you linked in your own OP. They link the studies. If that doesn't satisfy you, go debate on the wiki talk page.

[edit]

Ooh I saw you deliberately left out the actual wiki page discussing the actual topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat_and_cardiovascular_disease_controversy

You link to the individual pages of saturated fats to argue your side in the controversy but you don't link the controversy page? Ooh I guess that was just a honest mistake.
There's probably more wiki pages Eshlow doesn't want you to know about.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
June 26 2013 15:25 GMT
#1040
This is going nowhere like always. "Obviously I refuse to do that" is not the way discussion works.

Also curious what your qualifications are for reading a study properly is. I didn't bring it up but apparently that ability is important to you so I'd like to know why I can trust you then.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
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