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On August 02 2012 01:13 Miyoshino wrote:
Dude, of course too low body fat is bad.
Let me rephrase, if you are starved or an anorexia patient, gaining fat is the best thing in the world. But in a society where like 60% of the people are overweight and half of those are obese, fat is bad. He just lost 25 pounds. Why he needs to gain fat?
I never suggested people starve themselves. In fact, I'd say that for many people looking like an athlete or a ripped Holywood star may not be the best thing for you. If you put a large part of your body fat on your belly you will only have that super impressive abs when you are at a too low bodyfat percentage.
I don't know why this is even brought up when discussing a 5000+ calories a day for people who do no cardio at all and then gain 20 or more lbs of fat in a short period.
If that's what you meant, maybe you should have said it, instead of some utterly inaccurate absolutist shit like you did.
To quote you... Gaining fat is bad, always which is grossly inaccurate. There are plenty of people who could do with more body fat. Overall statistics for a culture have no bearing on individuals anyways, and what we're discussing here are individual cases.
Judging by the way that guy looks, if he keeps trying to lose weight, he's going to have no choice but to lose muscle mass. Your body resists losing the last little bits of fat, because it's horribly unhealthy to drop too low. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, almost fucking died.
Also, cardio isn't the only way to burn calories, and it's rather time inefficient anyways. You quickly build up ridiculous amounts of endurance. I knew guys in the Army who, despite running 20-25 miles a week, along with plenty of other cardio type exercise, would never lose fat. And they weren't eating a ton either.
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That's just trolling.
Dude, why do you try to strawman several times when I try to respond to someone who is changing the burden of proof in the first place? By responding I am being too nice in the first place. And then you straw man me over and over?
I never said cardio is the only way to burn calories. I burn calories in my sleep.
I also never said you need to starve yourself. I did say gaining fat is bad, always. But fucking read the context.
He doesn't need to lose weight. He needs to maintain his maintenance calories, maybe a bit more, in a healthy way.
You have to accept you aren't ever going to have the abs of a 23 yo fiitness model on steroids. And today we are in a photoshop era anyway.
The issue is gaining fat to gain muscle. Give me a study.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 02 2012 00:51 Miyoshino wrote:This is how you look when you use Rippetoe with bulking: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386&page=1The point is not if it works or not. I never said you cannot gain muscle when you are gaining fat. Obviously you can gain muscle while gaining fat. Im just saying it's bad. Gaining fat is bad, always, and it doesn't help gaining additional muscle. As for protein intake, obviously you can't take so much protein that you impede gaining muscle. Muscle require protein and water and at some point there's a minimum. The scientific studies done try to find this lower limit. At some point they had a study that concluded it could be 1.2 gram / kg. It doesn't mean eating less does inhibit it. In fact, as I said recent studies have shown it is .8 gram / kg or maybe lower. One paper is Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes by Tarnopolsky et al. Most people already eat well above the .8 gram / kg. Some people think that eating more will somehow encourage muscle growth. This is not the case. The body has little use for excess protein as it cannot be stored. Using protein powder isn't fundamentally bad. It is a way to consume protein without consuming a lot of fat or calories. But let's establish here that there is a very old myth that goes back to the ancient greek athletes that athletes need steak. This is also what motivated all that protein intake and athletes studies. Way back science even believed muscles burned protein, not carbs. As for having to make the weight. Every sport where you need to make a certain weight means you have to lose 2 or 3 kg before you are weighted. You can either lose 3 kg of muscle or 3 kg of water. Which one will you want to lose? So obviously Zoe Smith needs to 'cut'. But using that term in this context is purely equivocating the matter. Zoe Smith doesn't look like an amateur weightlifter or bodybuilder that read up on broscience on the internet and thinks he needs to bulk and take lots of protein shakes&creatine. They and fat will make you look bloated and you will look bigger. But it has little to do with athletic ability or muscle gain. As for Phelps, normal people can look like that. You don't need to take steroids, train 6 days a week to look like that. To perform like that, yes. But that's another issue. But that's besides the point. If Phelps is muscular enough for you, why do you need to bulk when Phelps doesn't? Going back to Rippetoe's students. Most of them are young people. They are told to go on a diet that suddenly puts a lot of fat on their body. That's just very bad for your health even if it does indeed put on more muscle. Another problem is that I believe many people will enthusiastically start to lift weights and eat tons of food. But then when to cut? My bet is that for most that 'cutting phase' never happens or just won't amount to much.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting your posts, but your first posts all came across as "you're all too dumb to know what you're talking about, I do." Now that I've pointed out all the mistakes and straight-up falsehoods from your first posts, you say "what you say is technically correct, but you're all too dumb to implement it properly." Like I say, I might be mistinterpreting this, but that's how it seems to me, and that's why people are getting annoyed.
Anyway, regarding the actual content, I'll start at the top. Posting that picture of Rippetoe's students is pointless and irrelevant. For one, Rippetoe's students train for pure strength, not aesthetics. As I already mentioned, there's a reason why it's bulk AND CUT, not just bulk. Rippetoe doesn't suggest cutting, he just suggests bulking. Added to that, no-one here prescribed Rippetoe's diet. Rippetoe suggests drinking 2400 calories a day just from milk (GOMAD) and then eating all your normal meals. That's around 1500 calories over maintenance for most people. Everything Rippetoe does is for pure strength. What we suggested is a balance between optimal strength gain and minimal fat gain (500 calories over maintenance). So yeah, posting pictures showing Rippetoe's diet at work is pointless since no-one here suggested using Rippetoe's diet.
Just to point out, you're once again vaguely referencing recent studies without quoting any. That study you mention is from 1992 (hardly recent), and suggests that more than 1.8g of protein per kg of bodyweight does not help. As such, it suggests that it is unnecessary (not bad) to take more than 1.8g of protein. Just looking on wiki, there's a 2008 study by Di Pasquale saying bodybuilders and weightlifters should take 2.2g of protein and a metastudy suggesting that athletes should take 1.2-1.8g of protein. Now, in two of the links I gave earlier they suggested that weightlifters and bodybuilders should take more than other athletes, so once again that seems to suggest at least 1.8g of protein. The point is that 2g isn't a bad target for weightlifters. It's not unhealthy to eat 2g of protein and, since the science is still disputed (ranging in the area around 2g), suggesting 2g of protein is a safe and reasonable suggestion. 1.2g or 0.8g might be fine, but it also might also be insufficient, resulting to slowed progress. Furthermore, since not picking up weight is so important to you, why are you fighting against the idea of eating more protein? 1g protein is equal to roughly 3.2 calories while 1g of fat or carbs is equal to 9 calories. So eating protein is good for your bodyweight as well.
None of us ever said that protein builds muscles. We suggested that 2g per kg of bodyweight is a good number to maximise strength gains when combined with Starting Strength. We're not idiots and we work on the assumption that we're not suggesting things to idiots. Either way, if Cloak takes more protein, what's the problem? What we suggested is reasonable (more reasonable than suggesting 1.2g or 0.8g), but if he does something else, that's his choice not ours. Nowhere did we suggest he should just keep eating more and more protein because protein on its own will make him strong.
Regarding the myth, that once again has nothing to do with us. We never suggested he should drink protein shakes because it will build muscle on its own for him, we suggested he get enough protein so that his body can recover from exercise. Are you seriously shooting down our (scientifically based and optimal) suggestions because they might be based on a myth, even though none of the posts even remotely reference said myth? That's why I say you treat other people as if they're idiots.
You used Zoe Smith as an example of a skinny girl not buying into all of this bodybuilding mumbo jumbo. I showed you that your poster child uses fairly significant supplements and is skinny, to a large extent, because she cuts after building muscle. It's not about water loss either. If you check the interviews she went on a six week diet to lose the weight. That's a fucking cut, no matter how you try to spin it. Sure, the cut is for her job, but the fact of the matter is that she built up strength by going over her target weight (i.e. bulking), and she lost the weight afterwards by dieting (i.e. cutting), and she did this on purpose to maximise her strength. There's no equivocating here.
Once again, you're implying we're idiots who make decisions based on "boscience on the internet and thinks he needs to bulk and take lots of protein shakes & creatine." So far it seems to me like all our suggestions are based on cold hard logic, while all your suggestions are based on "these people are probably idiots and I need to stop them from being retarded." That argument only works if what we suggest is wrong, which it's not.
Furthermore, where did ANYONE suggest steroids? Also, how many guys do you know that look like Phelps that do not spend an extroadinary amount of time in the gym or do sports professionally? Normal people don't look like Phelps just by trying to, they look like Phelps by either spending as much time as he does engaged in sport (and eating as much as he does) or by going to the gym and using a proper training program. The only "athletes" way to look like Phelps is to do what Phelps does, which is not realistic for any normal person. For everyone else, a proper weightlifting plan is a good alternative.
As earlier, pointing to Rippetoes students is irrelevant.
Finally, regarding your last paragraph, as I mentioned already, we tend to treat the people here as intelligent people who can decide whether they will cut or not. We don't feel the need to shield them from the idea of losing weight because maybe they're not strong enough to do it. Added to that, what exactly is your evidence that most people who bulk never cut? I already mentioned that I bulked to 88kg and then cut to 80kg. Cloak cut 25lb, but you're scared that he won't be able to cut 4lb later on? Literally almost every person on this forum has cut at some point without too much effort.
So yeah, stop treating other people like idiots or people who can't think for themselves.
On August 02 2012 01:30 Miyoshino wrote:
That's just trolling.
Dude, why do you try to strawman several times when I try to respond to someone who is changing the burden of proof in the first place? By responding I am being too nice in the first place. And then you straw man me over and over?
I never said cardio is the only way to burn calories. I burn calories in my sleep.
I also never said you need to starve yourself. I did say gaining fat is bad, always. But fucking read the context.
He doesn't need to lose weight. He needs to maintain his maintenance calories, maybe a bit more, in a healthy way.
You have to accept you aren't ever going to have the abs of a 23 yo fiitness model on steroids. And today we are in a photoshop era anyway.
The issue is gaining fat to gain muscle. Give me a study.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
On August 01 2012 18:06 Risen wrote:
YOU WILL GET STRONGER EATING MORE FOOD THAN IF YOU HAD EATEN LESS FOOD. IT WILL BE GROSS AND ICKY BECAUSE SOME FAT WILL ACCOMPANY THE MUSCLE GAIN. THE HUMAN BODY IS NOT PERFECT AND DOES NOT UTILIZE ALL CALORIES IN AND CONVERT IT TO MUSCLE. THEREFOR YOU HAVE TO EAT MORE THAN YOU WOULD HAVE TO EAT IF THE CONVERSION WAS AT 100%. ONCE YOU REACH YOUR STRENGTH GOALS YOU CAN STOP EATING AT SUCH A HIGH LEVEL AND THEN EAT BELOW MAINTENANCE TO CUT YOUR WEIGHT TO WHERE YOU WANT TO BE WHILE MAINTAINING YOUR NEW STRENGTH LEVELS.
On August 01 2012 20:38 Daigomi wrote:
Also, this has been pointed out quite a few times, but I'll reiterate. To optimally build muscle, you have to ensure that your body has enough calories available. By having less calories available, you'll still build muscle, but you'll build muscle more slowly. Ideally, you'd want to eat the perfect amount of food where every resource you have is being used to build muscle (which would still gain you weight). However, since it's impossible to know how much that is, the general guideline is to eat 500 calories more than your body needs a day. This should be enough to lead to optimal muscle growth without you picking up too much weight (1.6kg a month). You will pick up weight, but most of it will be muscle. A small amount of it will be fat. However, in your own words, it's possible to become stronger while eating at a deficit. If that's the case, why is being slightly overweight bad? All you do is eat at a deficit for 1-2 months (as I suggested), and not only have you gotten stronger, you're back down to a lean bodyweight with lots of extra muscle. As you say, this is not rocket science and saying that the mechanisms for putting on fat and muscle are not related is not just dumb, it illustrates a serious lack of knowledge for someone claiming to know the science.
Just in case you still don't understand this, because you've mentioned it a few times now, fat doesn't facilitate getting stronger! Fat is an externality of eating enough to optimize strength gains.
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If you think you are an idiot, then maybe you are.
Show me the studies supporting Rippetoe's diet is best for strength.
Until you do that, and aethestics did play a role, stop telling people to gain fat. Especially those that just struggled to lose it.
Also, why do I need to assume people on this forum are going to be completely different from people in general? Makes no sense.
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On August 02 2012 01:30 Miyoshino wrote:
That's just trolling.
Dude, why do you try to strawman several times when I try to respond to someone who is changing the burden of proof in the first place?
I never said cardio is the only way to burn calories. I burn calories in my sleep.
I also never said you need to starve yourself. I did say gaining fat is bad, always. But fucking read the context.
He doesn't need to lose weight. He needs to maintain his maintenance calories, maybe a bit more, in a healthy way.
You have to accept you aren't ever going to have the abs of a 23 yo fiitness model on steroids. And today we are in a photoshop era anyway.
The issue is gaining fat to gain muscle. Give me a study.
How am I trolling and using a strawman? I quoted YOUR inaccurate statement about gaining fat always being bad. Other people have already explained why it's more effective to gain hard and cut alternately, rather than trying to gain slow. You just didn't bother to listen.
Also, burden of proof is on the accuser. You're accusing all of the guys here of giving the guy bad information, but you're not bothering to provide anything resembling evidence, while they are.
I'm not sure what you mean about the issue is gaining fat to gain muscle. Assuming nobody can get their diet 100% perfectly tailored to their daily routine, workout, and goals (there's a fair amount of variance that's not entirely controllable) if you want to gain mass, it would be better to eat extra calories, rather than too few.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 02 2012 01:40 Miyoshino wrote:
If you think you are an idiot, then maybe you are.
Show me the studies supporting Rippetoe's diet is best for strength.
Until you do that, and aethestics did play a role, stop telling people to gain fat. Especially those that just struggled to lose it.
Where did anyone suggest Rippetoe's diet is best for strength? Come on, you posted it, now tell me where. Also, where did anyone suggest gaining fat? Point it out for me. I'll give you a clue, this is from my previous post which you are responding to:
On August 02 2012 01:37 Daigomi wrote:
Posting that picture of Rippetoe's students is pointless and irrelevant. For one, Rippetoe's students train for pure strength, not aesthetics. As I already mentioned, there's a reason why it's bulk AND CUT, not just bulk. Rippetoe doesn't suggest cutting, he just suggests bulking. Added to that, no-one here prescribed Rippetoe's diet. Rippetoe suggests drinking 2400 calories a day just from milk (GOMAD) and then eating all your normal meals. That's around 1500 calories over maintenance for most people. Everything Rippetoe does is for pure strength. What we suggested is a balance between optimal strength gain and minimal fat gain (500 calories over maintenance). So yeah, posting pictures showing Rippetoe's diet at work is pointless since no-one here suggested using Rippetoe's diet.
I'm serious, either you can point to evidence of us having suggested that, or you are trolling which won't end well for you.
On August 02 2012 01:40 Miyoshino wrote:
Also, why do I need to assume people on this forum are going to be completely different from people in general? Makes no sense.
Because we're treating each other with respect, mostly, and that means we don't assume everyone else is an idiot. For example, if I didn't treat you with respect, I would have banned you for trolling a long time ago. However, because I assume you're not a troll, I assume we can have a reasonable debate. However, if you start assuming everyone else is an idiot then people are going to start treating you like one.
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Ok, Im done with you guys. I tried hard and kept my manners when others didn't.
Always the same on this subforum...
KTF_CloaK, if you are reading this, pleas don't listen to them about gaining all that fat back again. And please go to a place with real athletes next time when you have fitness questions.
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They kept their manners pretty well in my opinion.
Regarding "can only eat so much protein in a meal because the rest just goes out your poop" thing.
That is false right? Can somebody explain it to me?
I figured if say, you had 100 grams of protein in a meal, then it would simply take longer to digest, and thus eventually be used in muscle repair/building/ect.
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On August 02 2012 02:22 Catch wrote:
They kept their manners pretty well in my opinion.
Regarding "can only eat so much protein in a meal because the rest just goes out your poop" thing.
That is false right? Can somebody explain it to me?
I figured if say, you had 100 grams of protein in a meal, then it would simply take longer to digest, and thus eventually be used in muscle repair/building/ect.
I believe this is one of those things where it's really hard to get a solid answer, since everybody is different.
Me personally, I poop too much, even when I'm relatively healthy, so "longer to digest" is bad.
Also, there's plenty of foods that don't digest efficiently that aren't protein.
Anyways, too much of literally anything can be bad. You can die from overhydration, even.
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On August 02 2012 02:22 Catch wrote:
They kept their manners pretty well in my opinion.
Regarding "can only eat so much protein in a meal because the rest just goes out your poop" thing.
That is false right? Can somebody explain it to me?
I figured if say, you had 100 grams of protein in a meal, then it would simply take longer to digest, and thus eventually be used in muscle repair/building/ect.
Yes, it's false. It gets burned as fuel. How exactly is really complex. But in general the body is really smart in how it uses energy. If it didn't the organism would starve when it doesn't have to. So that was selected against. Hence you get fat.
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On August 02 2012 03:49 Miyoshino wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 02:22 Catch wrote:
They kept their manners pretty well in my opinion.
Regarding "can only eat so much protein in a meal because the rest just goes out your poop" thing.
That is false right? Can somebody explain it to me?
I figured if say, you had 100 grams of protein in a meal, then it would simply take longer to digest, and thus eventually be used in muscle repair/building/ect. Yes, it's false. It gets burned as fuel. How exactly is really complex. But in general the body is really smart in how it uses energy. If it didn't the organism would starve when it doesn't have to. So that was selected against. Hence you get fat.
Read as: I don't know what I'm talking about but I read it somewhere... I think.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Tnx for the insult.
Protein are made of amino acids. Amino acids consist of an amine group, a carboxyl acid group and the group specific to that individual amino acid.
They can be broken down in the liver. Here the amine group is removed. This puts additional stress on the liver and kidneys, but is not an issue unless you have a liver or kidney problem. This ammonia you can pee out.
The remaining carboxylic acid can enter other metabolic pathways.
This is also why protein-rich foods are low in calories.
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On August 02 2012 00:51 Miyoshino wrote:
Another problem is that I believe many people will enthusiastically start to lift weights and eat tons of food. But then when to cut? My bet is that for most that 'cutting phase' never happens or just won't amount to much.
This is very true
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On August 02 2012 07:40 Miyoshino wrote:
Tnx for the insult.
Protein are made of amino acids. Amino acids consist of an amine group, a carboxyl acid group and the group specific to that individual amino acid.
They can be broken down in the liver. Here the amine group is removed. This puts additional stress on the liver and kidneys, but is not an issue unless you have a liver or kidney problem. This ammonia you can pee out.
The remaining carboxylic acid can enter other metabolic pathways.
This is also why protein-rich foods are low in calories.
Dude you know about wikipedia, too? I thought it was exclusive! :O
Edit: I wasn't saying you don't know how proteins are digested and such, I was referring to the fact that you say additional protein is just turned into fuel. You're right when you say the body is pretty smart. So when you start lifting heavier and heavier things your body will use the protein you ingest to help your muscles adapt and grow.
On August 02 2012 08:16 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 00:51 Miyoshino wrote:
Another problem is that I believe many people will enthusiastically start to lift weights and eat tons of food. But then when to cut? My bet is that for most that 'cutting phase' never happens or just won't amount to much.
This is very true
Why is that true? Cutting is so easy. You just eat less.
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it's the mindset that's hard not the concept. Losing weight is easy just eat less but america is still obese.
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Muscle gain is only that fast; very slow. It is not protein intake that will be a limiting factor. It will be time and for normal people exercise.
KTF_CloaK, just stick with the diet you are using now. You should be just a little bit over maintenance in caolorie intake. Then make sure you have some good protein sources. But try to keep fat intake to the minimum, no matter if it is 'good' or 'bad' fat. Your calories should come from carbs with plenty of fibre among them.
I would alo recommend eating red meat only 1 time a week and no more.
Nothing crazy is needed. Just a sensible diet. Think a diet that an athlete would use. Not a 'bulking' diet that puts on fat.
As for how to lift weights, that these guys do know.
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On August 02 2012 16:40 Miyoshino wrote:
Muscle gain is only that fast; very slow. It is not protein intake that will be a limiting factor. It will be time and for normal people exercise.
KTF_CloaK, just stick with the diet you are using now. You should be just a little bit over maintenance in caolorie intake. Then make sure you have some good protein sources. But try to keep fat intake to the minimum, no matter if it is 'good' or 'bad' fat. Your calories should come from carbs with plenty of fibre among them.
I would alo recommend eating red meat only 1 time a week and no more.
Nothing crazy is needed. Just a sensible diet. Think a diet that an athlete would use. Not a 'bulking' diet that puts on fat.
As for how to lift weights, that these guys do know.
i actually like the idea behind this approach. if you are scared to put on a bit of fat then there is no reason to go on a 5k+ kcal diet right away. but if you notice your recocery suffers (i.e. you cant keep putting more weight on the bar), you should probably eat more.
I dont particularly agree on your diet advice but that's another discussion 
and btw, diets that athletes use: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/sports/olympics/why-some-olympic-athletes-need-to-gorge.html?_r=3&ref=magazine
just sayin'  (dont take this seriously, I know that probably none of us will ever need to eat like this. its just a fun read I found)
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Unbelievable. I have stayed out of this discussion, and no matter how I look at it, Miyoshino must be trolling or english isn't his first language.
-He constantly points out at 'scientific evidence' that he cannot link us to, yet refuses to accept the evidence others DO link him to.
-He takes text out of context and essentially uses it as an insult:
If you think you are an idiot, then maybe you are.
Which is completely different from what Daigomi said, or implied, and multiple times even pointed out.
-He refuses to counter the points other people make, and keeps on rambling about his own 'science' that he has not backed in any way to us, and doesn't bring anything new to the table. Essentially all of his 'informative' posts have been repeating the very same things, despite being countered by other people. No matter how HIS points are countered, he keeps talking about them.
-He has either trouble reading, understanding, or must be trolling, as seen here:
Show me the studies supporting Rippetoe's diet is best for strength.
Which was something that was never implied, or even SUGGESTED for Cloak. He keeps running around in circles, never quite getting to the center of it. I also find it funny that he constantly demands scientific evidence, YET HE HAS NOT POSTED A SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE OR EXAMPLE DIET OR PROGRAM THAT WOULD BE GOOD. In fact, he has not posted any.
I also find it curious that he's still here to give advice after saying:
Ok, Im done with you guys. I tried hard and kept my manners when others didn't.
Always the same on this subforum...
Like I don't get it. He doesn't know how to debate, doesn't give out evidence, and yet tries to shove his advice (to which people have linked evidence pointing out that it might actually be bad/inefficient for the person) to other people.
Seriously, Miyoshino, I just feel that you're a troll or just not very smart. That, or you desperately want attention. I don't mean to sound rude, but look at your posts. You give us nothing and run in circles, and you refuse to answer the points other people make that you are _unable_ to counter. That's not very mature. And that kind of debate/advice is not wanted here.
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I gave like 4 studies. You people gave none. The burden of proof is on you guys, not on me. So I shouldn't have to give any studies.
Endurance athletes have to eat a lot to carb on for a race. But what you think Bolt eats on rest days? For cyclists and triathletes its very hard to replenish their calories. Things like Tour de France are impossible to do with only normal foods. You can't digest that many bananas. But this is completely off topic.
Im only arguing against bulking or putting on fat to gain muscle and that you need to eat 3 gram/kg of protein each day. I gave studies on only the last one, where it is shown the number is lower. For the others no studies can possibly be given because of the burden of proof.
Clearly what Rippetoe does to his students is 'bulking' as they gain like over 10 kg in 3 or 4 months.
If you gain 1 or 2 kg of fat, that's not bulking. If you eat 2 g/kg and slightly above calorie intake and you don't gain a lot of fat, that's not bulking.
All I am saying, don't 'bulk'. Also when you tell someone to 'bulk' he will go and google that and he will do what he finds. Not what you may have in the back of your head.
I'm done with arguing the guys that jumped so aggressively on me. Why can't I post anymore after I think I am done arguing? Why can't I defend against the personal attacks that are made against me that have nothing to do with the debate in the first place?
As an adult you won't put on more muscle than a teen male that's becoming an adult and gaining height and muscle mass naturally. And we all know what their protein recommendations and requirements are. They don't need to 'bulk'. So why do adults? Same with pregnant woman and children. Their protein requirements will also be higher than those of weight lifters as they will have more new tissue to build.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 02 2012 16:40 Miyoshino wrote:
Muscle gain is only that fast; very slow. It is not protein intake that will be a limiting factor. It will be time and for normal people exercise.
KTF_CloaK, just stick with the diet you are using now. You should be just a little bit over maintenance in caolorie intake. Then make sure you have some good protein sources. But try to keep fat intake to the minimum, no matter if it is 'good' or 'bad' fat. Your calories should come from carbs with plenty of fibre among them.
I would alo recommend eating red meat only 1 time a week and no more.
Nothing crazy is needed. Just a sensible diet. Think a diet that an athlete would use. Not a 'bulking' diet that puts on fat.
As for how to lift weights, that these guys do know.
Just a question, how much is a "little bit over maintenance" according to you? In terms of calories that is, how many calories should he eat over maintenance to ensure he has enough energy to optimally build muscle in your opinion?
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EPT
