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I can't say because I am not a professional nutritionist and I don't know his BMR/TDEE. But when doing some handwaving, he needs about 2200 to 2300 calories to maintain weight. So I think he should try to stay below 2600 as what his goal is (unless he does crazy cardio). I don't know what calorie intake he had while losing weight. I'd suggest he keeps that diet but adds some very lean protein sources. So things like tuna, cottage cheese, soy/tofu, beans, etc. And maybe clean up the bad stuff some more or up on high fiber vegetables.
If you get your protein from red meat, high fat dairy, or nuts, your calorie and fat intake will get too high and you won't be ripped.
So I'd suggest eating 1.2 g/kg of lean protein. So for him at 71 kg that means about 85 grams of protein. That's about 650 or so kcal worth of protein.
The remainder of his kcal should come from carbs that are high in fiber and have a low glycemic index. So 200 to 300 grams of vegetables a day. They add barely any calories. Maybe 50 to 80 kcal. So then you have rice, bread, potato, etc.
So then he has quite a bit left for about 400 gram of bread/potato/rice and of course empty calories just for enjoyment.
One should consume nuts and olive oil in limited amounts. Same with chocolate.
But that's all what is theoretically the best. It's all hard to do and we like nice foods. And it all depends on what he does now. You can't expect someone to completely change their diet and lifestyle. He should just know he has been doing good so far and that this kind of diet is what science says he should aim for.
Then I recommend everyone do cardio. You can burn about 300-500 calories an hour or so. That's not an unreasonable number.
If he goes 4000 kcal 'bulking', eating steak, lots of eggs, chicken breasts, nuts,.full fat milk, some fastfood, that's gonna be bad.
He should get an inbody scan to get both his fat and muscle percentages measured. Then he should set clear goals, both cardio and strength gain, that are achievable. Then see what progress he has made after 6 months. He shouldn't cut or try to lose more weight. He should measure his bodyfat percentage, get in shape and gain strength, then measure it again and see then if he wants it lower or not.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 02 2012 19:44 Miyoshino wrote:
I can't say because I am not a professional nutritionist and I don't know his BMR/TDEE. But when doing some handwaving, he needs about 2200 to 2300 calories to maintain weight. So I think he should try to stay below 2500 as what his goal is. I don't know what calorie intake he had while losing weight. I'd suggest he keeps that diet but adds some very lean protein sources. So things like tuna, cottage cheese, soy/tofu, beans, etc.
If you get your protein from red meat, high fat dairy, or nuts, your calorie and fat intake will get too high and you won't be ripped.
So I'd suggest eating 1.2 g/kg of lean protein. So for him at 71 kg that means about 85 grams of protein. That's about 650 or so kcal worth of protein.
The remainder of his kcal should come from carbs that are high in fiber and have a low glycemic index. So 200 to 300 grams of vegetables a day. They add barely any calories. Maybe 50 to 80 kcal. So then you have rice, bread, potato, etc.
So then he has quite a bit left for about 400 gram of bread/potato/rice and of course empty calories just for enjoyment.
One should consume nuts and olive oil in limited amounts. Same with chocolate.
But that's all what is theoretically the best. It's all hard to do and we like nice foods.
Then I recommend everyone do cardio. You can burn about 300-500 calories an hour or so. That's not an unreasonable number.
If he goes 4000 kcal 'bulking', eating steak, lots of eggs, chicken breasts, nuts,.full fat milk, some fastfood, that's gonna be bad.
He should get an inbody scan to get both his fat and muscle percentages measured. Then he should set clear goals that are achievable. Then see what progress he has made after 6 months.
Ok, so just to make sure I understand this correctly, you are suggesting he eats 200-300 calories over maintenance, but you were attacking us for suggesting he should eat 500 calories over maintenance? I'll quote the posts just to make sure you see it:
On July 31 2012 21:02 Daigomi wrote:
How much you eat would depend a lot on your goals. If you're trying to bulk, you should be eating 500cal more than maintenance. If you do that you'll pick up 1.8kg (4lb) a month, so after four months you'll weigh around 78kg. I don't think this would be a bad goal for you. From my experience, you don't really need to eat more than that to see linear gains, and anything more will just result in more fat gained rather than muscle gained.
Once again, let me know if I'm misunderstanding something here. You suggest he needs to eat 300 calories over maintenance for optimal muscle gain, but when we suggest he should be eating 500 calories, we're suggesting he should be gaining fat to gain muscle?
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No. He asked if he should eat 4000 kcal and bulk. You guys cite Starting Strength because 'it worked for us' and say 'losing the fat is not a problem', and that 'everyone bulks and cuts'. He doesn't need to bulk. He needs a sensible healthy diet. And that's a diet most people don't have, is actually hard to do because we all have cravings for chocolate icecream and some people love their high fat stuff like steak and fastfood.
I don't know what you recommend because it is too vague. I never responded to you. I said 'bulking and cutting is a myth, you can gain muscle while burning fat' and you responded to that, using SS as a shield. He brought up 4000 kcal and bulking. He got that from somewhere. And in fact that's what Rippetoe does. His student gained 25 lbs of fat in 14 weeks.
It's just that you said he needs to gain 1 kg of fat to gain .8 kg of muscle, because that's what happens if you gain 1.8 kg a month. And that's if he is lucky because he will probably see less muscle gains.
If he eats over his usual maintenance but then also does cardio, he won't gain fat. If he starts to gain fat, he should eat less calories. If you do cardio and eat only 300 over your normal maintainance, he probably has a calorie deficit anyway. He will gain muscle doing cardio being on a calorie deficit burning fat.
But I can't eyeball bodyfat percentages at all so he should have it measured.
Didn't I say I stopped trying to argue with you? Why you insist so badly? You give your advice. I give mine.
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I think you use the term "bulk" differently than pretty much everyone else around here. you mean: eating shit tons of food and gaining fat and muscle at around the same rate. what everyone else seems to mean is eating about 500kcal above maintenance.
not saying you are wrong, just saying that this will lead to misunderstandings.
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well this guy's maintainance should be about 2200 and he asks if he should bulk eating 3000-4000 kcal or cut more first, then bulk with 3000-4000. So surely here is reason for me to tell him he doesn't need to bulk. If he stays on the diet he used to lose 25 lbs of fat he will gain just as much muscle as when he bulks back with a 4000 kcal diet. I have no reason to believe so otherwise unless I see a study.
He should be quite close to 2200, depending on his body fat and his diet right now as well as how much cardio he will do. He shouldn't get near 4000 and if he gains the amount of fat Diagomi recommends he gains, he eats too much imo. Why you want all that fat? Again, it comes back to him saying he can't gain muscle if he doesn't gain fat also because if he doesn't gain fat he will be at a calorie deficit making it impossible to gain muscle. Again, I'd ask for a study that shows this is correct. Maybe I am still misunderstanding this, but hey, it's hard not to.
But more importantly than eating 2200, 500kcal over what he needs to not gain fat or 4000 kcal is what foods he uses to get those kcals.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 02 2012 20:03 Miyoshino wrote:
No. He asked if he should eat 4000 kcal and bulk. You guys cite Starting Strength because 'it worked for us' and say 'losing the fat is not a problem', and that 'everyone bulks and cuts'. He doesn't need to bulk. He needs a sensible healthy diet. And that's a diet most people don't have, is actually hard to do because we all have cravings for chocolate icecream and some people love their high fat stuff like steak and fastfood.
If he eats over maintenance and is actually quite active, he won't gain fat. If he starts to gain fat, he should eat less calories. If you do cardio and eat only 300 over your maintainance, he probably has a calorie deficit anyway.
Didn't I say I stopped trying to argue with you? Why you insist so badly? You give your advice. I give mine.
What I just quoted there is my first reply to his post. He asked how much he should eat, and I said to bulk he needs to eat 500 calories above maintenance. You can go look at the post and you'll see this is the only advice we had offered him before you started telling us that we're lying to him. In fact, I'll quote it again for you so you don't have to go back:
On July 31 2012 21:02 Daigomi wrote:
How much you eat would depend a lot on your goals. If you're trying to bulk, you should be eating 500cal more than maintenance. If you do that you'll pick up 1.8kg (4lb) a month, so after four months you'll weigh around 78kg. I don't think this would be a bad goal for you. From my experience, you don't really need to eat more than that to see linear gains, and anything more will just result in more fat gained rather than muscle gained.
Look at the bolded part. Also, look at the last sentence. I specifically recommend that he doesn't eat more than 500 calories above maintenance, because that would result in unnecessary fat gained.
I never suggested that he eats anything more than this. In fact, I've looked at every single post, and no-one ever suggested he eats more than 500 calories over maintenance. In fact, the only person who mentions diets like these are you:
On August 01 2012 15:44 Miyoshino wrote:
This guy lost 25 pound. Now I was never an overweight person and because of my lifestyle and genetics I may never be so I'm lucky. But I imagine it's fucking hard to do. So now people are telling him to eat an excess of 1000 calories a day again with lots of fat and protein?
On August 02 2012 01:13 Miyoshino wrote:
I don't know why this is even brought up when discussing a 5000+ calories a day for people who do no cardio at all and then gain 20 or more lbs of fat in a short period.
And I responded by saying that we are not suggesting a diet like that, we are suggesting a diet of 500 calories over maintenance. I'll quote that post again for your convenience:
On August 02 2012 01:37 Daigomi wrote:
No-one here prescribed Rippetoe's diet. Rippetoe suggests drinking 2400 calories a day just from milk (GOMAD) and then eating all your normal meals. That's around 1500 calories over maintenance for most people. Everything Rippetoe does is for pure strength. What we suggested is a balance between optimal strength gain and minimal fat gain (500 calories over maintenance).
Once again, look at the bolded part. I posted this twice in fact. This is now the third time.
So you can understand why I was (and am) confused, and why everyone else was confused. However, as I said earlier, feel free to point out how we misunderstood something here.
EDIT: Ok, now you're just confusing me again. With regards to your newest post:
On August 02 2012 20:26 Miyoshino wrote:
He should be quite close to 2200, depending on his body fat and his diet right now. He shouldn't get near 4000 and if he gains the amount of fat Diagomi recommends he gains, he eats too much imo. Why you want all that fat? Again, it comes back to him saying he can't gain muscle if he doesn't gain fat also because if he doesn't gain fat he will be at a calorie deficit making it impossible to gain muscle.
Where did I recommend that gains fat? Where did I say he should get any fat? In fact, where did I say he can't gain muscle if he can't gain fat? Where did I say he can't gain muscle if he's at a claoric deficit? Please, I'm asking really nicely here, just go back to my posts and quote the parts I say this. I'd really appreciate it.
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I never responded to you. But in fact, you are a liar because you said he needs to gain 1.8 kg a month and most of that will be fat.
From your experience you don't need to eat more than that fat gaining diet you recommend. But what about less? Have you ever tried? I guess not...
Maybe ask a personal trainer who has dozens of people come in each week, scans their fat and muscle percentages, and puts them on an exercise program. Maybe ask them what they see in body composition changes.
Now maybe you have forgotten what you typed out. But if you can scroll back and quote me, why can't you scroll back and read on what you posted yourself?
This is not about misunderstandings but about being deceptive and about being liars.
I never said he got the 4000 kcal a day diet from you, but after I replied, apparenty you did feel the need to defend it. So maybe while initially I thought you'd not recommend it, maybe you would? I am confused about about what you mean.
He got the 4000 kcal number from someone. The internet is rifle with people who recommend it. I never said he got it from you. Maybe he did. But it's wrong. So if he didn't get it from you, why respond? Why not just jump in to agree rather than argue for the sake of arguing?
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299453¤tpage=206#4104
Me after 2 months of diligently attempting to eat 4500 calories on average a day. Let's not act like there are hard and fast rules about what's an appropriate amount and what's not. I also ate as much meat and fat and milk as possible. Typical day was 4-5 eggs and bacon in the morning, some kind of meat/vegetable/sweet potato lunch and same for dinner with milk at every meal and a protein shake post workouts. You can call it wrong or inefficient. I call it results after not putting on muscle in years of working out in the gym. You don't know me that well, and you don't know KTF that well so let's not act like there's an absolute right answer here. Also, KTF posts once every few months asking for advice and then doesn't post again or ask for more feedback so you might as well keep it general.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 02 2012 20:30 Miyoshino wrote:
I never responded to you. But in fact, you are a liar because you said he needs to gain 1.8 kg a month and most of that will be fat.
From your experience you don't need to eat more than that fat gaining diet you recommend. But what about less? Have you ever tried? I guess not...
Maybe ask a personal trainer who has dozens of people come in each week, scans their fat and muscle percentages, and puts them on an exercise program. Maybe ask them what they see in body composition changes.
Now maybe you have forgotten what you typed out. But if you can scroll back and quote me, why can't you scroll back and read on what you posted yourself?
This is not about misunderstandings but about being deceptive and about being liars.
I never said he got the 4000 kcal a day diet from you, but after I replied, apparenty you did feel the need to defend it. So maybe while initially I thought you'd not recommend it, maybe you would? I am confused about about what you mean.
He got the 4000 kcal number from someone. The internet is rifle with people who recommend it. I never said he got it from you. Maybe he did. But it's wrong. So if he didn't get it from you, why respond? Why not just jump in to agree rather than argue for the sake of arguing?
I'm not lying, or being deceptive, you just don't understand the science. Let me explain it to you. 3500 calories is equal to 1lb, so 1.8kg a month is the result of 14000 calories a month, or 500 calories over maintenance. Your recommendation of 300 calories would result in 1.1kg gained a month. So I'm not recommending that he gain any fat, I'm recommending he eats 500 cals above maintenance (for optimal muscle development) which would result in that much weight gained a month. Most of that would be muscle.
Regarding eating less, I'm pretty sure everyone here has done that at some point. I've personally done that while cutting and my strength gains came close to disappearing. Last month my cut finished and I started eating above maintenance again, and I've made almost twice as much progress since then as I did in the 3 months before that while cutting. It's also not a placebo effect, since I didn't realise it was because of the eating until a few days ago (you can check, I made a post about that in the TLHF). Everyone here will tell you the same thing. When you eat above maintenance you gain WAY more muscle than when you eat below maintenance.
Furthermore, no-one suggested he eats 3000-4000 calories a day. He read about it somewhere and asked if it was appropriate, we said it wasn't and gave him instructions on how to bulk more efficiently. You said that wouldn't work.
Now, I'm giving you one last chance to answer my questions, otherwise you're trolling:
On August 02 2012 20:26 Miyoshino wrote:
He should be quite close to 2200, depending on his body fat and his diet right now. He shouldn't get near 4000 and if he gains the amount of fat Diagomi recommends he gains, he eats too much imo. Why you want all that fat? Again, it comes back to him saying he can't gain muscle if he doesn't gain fat also because if he doesn't gain fat he will be at a calorie deficit making it impossible to gain muscle.
Where did I recommend that he gains fat? Where did I say he should get any fat? In fact, where did I say he can't gain muscle if he can't gain fat? Where did I say he can't gain muscle if he's at a claoric deficit? Please, I'm asking really nicely here, just go back to my posts and quote the parts I say this. I'd really appreciate it.
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You just said it and confirmed it, then go to asking where you said it. 1.8 kg gain a month means at least gaining 1.2 kg of fat a month.
So, you are hopeless and you are trolling.
And with my recommendation, if he does cardio 2 times a week, he is going to have a calorie deficit so he will be losing fat, not gaining it. Not to mention the calories burned doing the lifting. They won't be sigificant, but surely they do count.
Troll.
User was temp banned for this post.
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South Africa4316 Posts
I really hate banning people who I have a disagreement with and I tried to avoid it for as long as possible. However, I gave him three opportunities to prove that he wasn't just purposefully arguing in circles and instead he either ignored them or continued arguing in circles. In the end, the name calling (which he has a long history of) gave me no choice 
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Zurich15355 Posts
What the hell happened here ...
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I completely agree with the ban
That whole thing was ridiculous
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On August 02 2012 21:45 zatic wrote:
What the hell happened here ...
Miyo was just ignoring what people are posting and telling them they are wrong, then we just go around in circles, followed by pulling the victim card right after intentionally abrasive behaviour. He has an opinion which he believes conflicts with what people are recommending.
It can be seen when Daigomi and risen specify what they mean by bulking, yet Miyoshino argues against bulking because of his own definition of bulking.
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Wow im really confused right now haha. Thanks mordek and Daigomi for the advice, so you are saying my diet is good? Im currently getting 150 gram protein a day from whey shakes and chicken and tuna. Any further advice you guys can give me would be really appreciated! and instead of 4000 i should be aiming for 3000 (500 above maintenance)?
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 03 2012 19:52 KTF_CloaK wrote:
Wow im really confused right now haha. Thanks mordek and Daigomi for the advice, so you are saying my diet is good? Im currently getting 150 gram protein a day from whey shakes and chicken and tuna. Any further advice you guys can give me would be really appreciated! and instead of 4000 i should be aiming for 3000 (500 above maintenance)?
Yeah, just look at my first post. The rest of the discussion went horribly off topic, and the guy we were arguing with mostly seems to agree with what I said in that post (even though we argued about it).
4000 calories is a bit too much, so move it down to 500 over maintenance. I'm not sure exactly how much that would be, it differs from person to person, but it's probably somewhere between 2700 and 3000. And 150 grammes of protein a day is perfect for you.
Other than that, just remember that weightlifting is a marathon, not a sprint. In the beginning you're going to improve a lot an that will make you want to just continue improving. However, at some point your progress will start to slow down, and you have to accept that that's just how it is. Many people get frustrated when progress slows down the first time, but there's nothing you can do about it. If your muscles haven't grown enough to lift the weight yet, then all you can do is to continue exercising and eating correctly and giving them time. So don't try to rush it.
Also, set yourself some long-term weightlifting goals. Personally, I find six month goals to work well. So basically, you want to say something like, after six months, I want to be able to squat 100kg, deadlift 130kg, bench 70kg, and press 50kg. That way you have something concrete to work towards. It also allows you to measure your progress more effectively.
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thats just what im doing a six month goal! thats an awesome tip but even though im gonna have a plsteau i dont care im in this for the long haul :D I just want to feel good about myself and.I.will always continue to push further.^^
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 03 2012 21:41 KTF_CloaK wrote:
thats just what im doing a six month goal! thats an awesome tip but even though im gonna have a plsteau i dont care im in this for the long haul :D I just want to feel good about myself and.I.will always continue to push further.^^
Good luck! It's really fun once you get into it. Honestly, I can't think about my life without weightlifting anymore 
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 03 2012 21:44 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 21:41 KTF_CloaK wrote:
thats just what im doing a six month goal! thats an awesome tip but even though im gonna have a plsteau i dont care im in this for the long haul :D I just want to feel good about myself and.I.will always continue to push further.^^ Good luck! It's really fun once you get into it. Honestly, I can't think about my life without weightlifting anymore
Ditto. Cloak, if you have problems gaining weight at 3k, just up your calories by 500 for 2-3 weeks and see how much difference that makes. I went from 165 to low 170s eating 3k cal/day but once I got there, I had to up my calories to 3.5k to go up to 180.
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On August 03 2012 22:29 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 21:44 Daigomi wrote:On August 03 2012 21:41 KTF_CloaK wrote:
thats just what im doing a six month goal! thats an awesome tip but even though im gonna have a plsteau i dont care im in this for the long haul :D I just want to feel good about myself and.I.will always continue to push further.^^ Good luck! It's really fun once you get into it. Honestly, I can't think about my life without weightlifting anymore Ditto. Cloak, if you have problems gaining weight at 3k, just up your calories by 500 for 2-3 weeks and see how much difference that makes. I went from 165 to low 170s eating 3k cal/day but once I got there, I had to up my calories to 3.5k to go up to 180.
Yeah, one of the biggest struggles to gaining weight is constantly having to up the calories - just when you adjust to eating 3k, you realize you need 3200 to keep gaining and it seems impossible to fit any more food in. Then it's on up to 3500.
Definitely stick around this forum though; arguments like what just happened in this thread are the exception, rather than the rule, and it definitely helps to have a community to support you in this, because (as you seem to be aware) TLHF is not something you do for a month, or a year. It's a lifestyle.
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EPT
