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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
However, we all know the body can be a bit stubborn and resilient, so I was curious about thoughts on this: If I started lifting instead of just doing body weight stuff, do you think I'd need to increase my caloric intake, or do you think my body would try to process more out of what I ate? Frankly, I may be in decent shape for being a scrawny sort, but I'd rather bulk up a bit and fix the "scrawny sort" part. | ||
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emjaytron
Australia544 Posts
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billy5000
United States865 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:05 emjaytron wrote: My girlfriend is starting to eat paleo for health related reasons, and she's having trouble thinking of foods to have for breakfast that don't require cooking (she has some early starts for work). What kind of things are paleo, palatable for breakfast, and don't need cooking. She's getting sick of just eating fruit and yoghurt Hard boiled eggs, cooked from the day before, are my favorite. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:05 emjaytron wrote: My girlfriend is starting to eat paleo for health related reasons, and she's having trouble thinking of foods to have for breakfast that don't require cooking (she has some early starts for work). What kind of things are paleo, palatable for breakfast, and don't need cooking. She's getting sick of just eating fruit and yoghurt If time is an issue, I've discovered a microwave grill and bacon are cool, you can throw a couple slices of bacon on a microwave grill, throw a paper towel on top, turn on the microwave, then get ready to leave. Grab the bacon on your way out the door. If you put another paper towel under the bacon, it will sop up most of the grease, decreasing how much congealed bacon grease you have to worry about later. Less prep time than stovetop, since you can ignore it completely after you stick it in the microwave. And, of course, the aforementioned hardboiled eggs, precooked, are awesome. I usually boil a dozen eggs at a time when I boil them, then just eat them when I want a snack. Just mark the box so you don't try to scramble the wrong ones. | ||
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Zafrumi
Switzerland1272 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:05 emjaytron wrote: My girlfriend is starting to eat paleo for health related reasons, and she's having trouble thinking of foods to have for breakfast that don't require cooking (she has some early starts for work). What kind of things are paleo, palatable for breakfast, and don't need cooking. She's getting sick of just eating fruit and yoghurt fruits, nuts, hard boiled eggs, stuff cooked the day before. | ||
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KTF_CloaK
Netherlands1338 Posts
http://imgur.com/sdCPn http://imgur.com/mS9W6 Hi, I've been having trouble deciding if I should cut further or begin bulking up. I have lost around 25 pounds to get where I am today and frankly I'm a bit paranoid about bulking and gaining weight (and muscle ofcourse) but I do want that lean toned body, with strength gains ofcourse. Here are my stats: 71 kg (156 lbs) 182 cm (6') 17 years old I am planning to do Starting Strength for my bulk, three times a week, eating 3000-4000 cals a day. So, should I cut a bit more and then bulk, or start bulking up now? And how many calories should I consume? The ultimate goal for me is a ripped body and I hope I can accomplish that in a year or so. The plan is now to maybe bulk for 6 months depending on progress (n00bgains haha) and then a cut of 6 months. Thanks in advance guys! | ||
Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On July 31 2012 20:26 KTF_CloaK wrote: Pictures: http://imgur.com/sdCPn http://imgur.com/mS9W6 Hi, I've been having trouble deciding if I should cut further or begin bulking up. I have lost around 25 pounds to get where I am today and frankly I'm a bit paranoid about bulking and gaining weight (and muscle ofcourse) but I do want that lean toned body, with strength gains ofcourse. Here are my stats: 71 kg (156 lbs) 182 cm (6') 17 years old I am planning to do Starting Strength for my bulk, three times a week, eating 3000-4000 cals a day. So, should I cut a bit more and then bulk, or start bulking up now? And how many calories should I consume? The ultimate goal for me is a ripped body and I hope I can accomplish that in a year or so. The plan is now to maybe bulk for 6 months depending on progress (n00bgains haha) and then a cut of 6 months. Thanks in advance guys! You need muscle fairly urgently :p I'd personally suggest just bulking up now. I mean, you could spend another month getting super lean, but it seems like a waste of time to be lean but have no muscle. It's good that you've got a long-term goal, any goals shorter than a year would be unrealistic. After a year you'll definitely see big changes (especially considering your current lack of muscle), but don't think you'll be super muscled. I'm getting close to finishing my first year on SS and I look way better than I used to, but I still look like a fairly normal guy. That said, it's definitely worth it. If you stick with SS there will come a point where you enjoy the lifting for its own sake, and the aesthetic improvements are just an added bonus. Do you have a target weight? You seem to be very skinny for your height, so rather than bulking up and then cutting back down to your original weight (which would make you even smaller, since muscle is denser than fat), it might be more useful to work up to a slightly higher bodyweight (something like 78kg). That might also make it psychologically easier for you to pick up weight, if you know you are working towards your target weight. How much you eat would depend a lot on your goals. If you're trying to bulk, you should be eating 500cal more than maintenance. If you do that you'll pick up 1.8kg (4lb) a month, so after four months you'll weigh around 78kg. I don't think this would be a bad goal for you. From my experience, you don't really need to eat more than that to see linear gains, and anything more will just result in more fat gained rather than muscle gained. The one thing I do think you're overestimating is the duration of the cut. You need to gain weight so you won't cut all the weight you've gained. To me, a more realistic goal would be something like: Bulk for five months (up to 80kg), cut for one or two months (down to 76-78kg), and then eat at maintenance (or slightly above it) the rest of the time. | ||
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
There is only one study where they followed ultra runners on the TransEurope-FootRace with a 45 ton MRI scan. These people ran 2800 miles in 2 month and they got an MRI each day. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/10/78/abstract http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20101129/running-through-pain-good-idea These runners did indeed lose muscle mass. But they only lost it in the legs. Why? Because they were overtraining and damaging the muscles. They didn't lose any other muscle. Cardio doesn't burn muscle. Overtraining does. If muscle fibers are too damaged, if there is too much corticosteroid in your system, you degrade muscle. Only bodybuilders think they need to bulk and cut. Do you think Bolt went through a bulk and a cut? This guy needs some muscle and strength training for sure. But there's no reason for him to get fat first. Every day people sign up witha gym. These people then start to train and after several months they have lost fat and gained muscle. Many of these people are older and unfit people. These people aren't told to get even fatter first. No, they just start to work out both cardio and strength and they do it. If the human body were unable to both lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, the human species would have gone extinct a long time ago. This guy lost 25 pound. Now I was never an overweight person and because of my lifestyle and genetics I may never be so I'm lucky. But I imagine it's fucking hard to do. So now people are telling him to eat an excess of 1000 calories a day again with lots of fat and protein? I'd say that for your overall health cardio is a lot more important than strength training. Cardio makes you healthy. Strength training not so much. So if you aren't only interested in aethetics I'd suggest getting a cardio goal as well and do both. It's convenient if you have both your fat and muscle percetages measured so you can track your progress nicely. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On August 01 2012 15:44 Miyoshino wrote: Bulking and cutting is a myth. You can gain muscle while losing fat. You can gain muscle while doing triathlons. There is only one study where they followed ultra runners on the TransEurope-FootRace with a 45 ton MRI scan. These people ran 2800 miles in 2 month and they got an MRI each day. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/10/78/abstract http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20101129/running-through-pain-good-idea These runners did indeed lose muscle mass. But they only lost it in the legs? Why? Because they were overtraining and damaging the muscles. Cardio doesn't burn muscle. Overtraining does. If muscle fibers are too damaged, if there is too much corticosteroid in your system, you degrade muscle. Only bodybuilders think they need to bulk and cut. Do you think Bolt went through a bulk and a cut? This guy needs some muscle and strength training for sure. But there's no reason for him to get fat first. Every day people sign up witha gym. These people then start to train and after several months they have lost fat and gained muscle. Many of these people are older and unfit people. These people aren't told to get even fatter first. No, they just start to work out both cardio and strength and they do it. If the human body were unable to both lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, the human species would have gone extinct a long time ago. This guy lost 25 pound. Now I was never an overweight person and because of my lifestyle and genetics I may never be so I'm lucky. But I imagine it's fucking hard to do. So now people are telling him to eat an excess of 1000 calories a day again with lots of fat and protein? I'd say that for your overall health cardio is a lot more important than strength training. Cardio makes you healthy. Strength training not so much. So if you aren't only interested in aethetics I'd suggest getting a cardio goal as well and do both. It's convenient if you have both your fat and muscle percetages measured so you can track your progress nicely. I think you're misunderstanding what people mean here when they say bulking and cutting. Yeah you can gain muscle while losing fat, but will you gain as much muscle as if you had just focused on muscle gain? No. Thus we call it bulking. Cutting simply refers to limiting the amount of calories you eat so you don't gain any fat. It's perfectly normal for people to gain muscle while cutting, but you will not gain as much muscle as if you were bulking. Got it? I know you like to be as obtuse as possible, so I hope this was simple enough for you. Edit: It comes down to what you think will be faster. Slowly gaining muscle by not feeding yourself enough and not focusing on muscle gain, or gaining a lot of muscle with some additional fat and then burning off the fat. You are clearly in school one, most of us are in school two. I'm in school two because I've done school two and KNOW it works. | ||
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
At least I have seen no studies. He doesn't need to go on a low calorie diet, but he certainly doesn't need to 'bulk'. Just a sensible clean diet with the proper ratio of macronutrients. Eat about 0.8 g/kg of lean body mass of protein. Get about half of the protein from plant sources, more is better since animal protein is associated with many health problems. Then eat a lot of fruit and vegetables and eat about as many calories you use burn. No reason to eat a lot more or a lot less. Muscle always gains slow. It's only bodybuilders that bulk and cut, and they are on the gear. Oh and maybe American football players and sumo wrestlers that actually want all that fat because weight is weight. But of course they only bulk. You 'know' it works. Let me tell you a little secret. If you are on a bulking diet, you are doing creatine, you are talking protein shakes two or three times a day, you will see the scale move and you will see your body bloat up. But you will not have much real strength because you haven't actually gained that much muscle. It only looks that way. You will see a thin skinny girl like Zoe Smith completely outperform you. So yeah you have a pick. Do it the bodybuilding&supplement industry way or do it the athlete way. And the first one only promises muscle while the other promises overall superior fitness. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On August 01 2012 16:57 Miyoshino wrote: I'd like to see one study that shows that when you are getting fatter, that will also put your body in the optimal state for muscle gain. I don't think the mechanisms for putting on fat and putting on muscle are associated with each other. At least I have seen no studies. He doesn't need to go on a low calorie diet, but he certainly doesn't need to 'bulk'. Just a sensible clean diet with the proper ratio of macronutrients. Eat about 0.8 g/kg of lean body mass of protein. Get about half of the protein from plant sources, more is better since animal protein is associated with many health problems. Then eat a lot of fruit and vegetables and eat about as many calories you use burn. No reason to eat a lot more or a lot less. Muscle always gains slow. It's only bodybuilders that bulk and cut, and they are on the gear. Oh and maybe American football players and sumo wrestlers that actually want all that fat because weight is weight. But of course they only bulk. You 'know' it works. Let me tell you a little secret. If you are on a bulking diet, you are doing creatine, you are talking protein shakes two or three times a day, you will see the scale move and you will see your body bloat up. But you will not have much real strength because you haven't actually gained that much muscle. It only looks that way. You will see a thin skinny girl like Zoe Smith completely outperform you. So yeah you have a pick. Do it the bodybuilding&supplement industry way or do it the athlete way. And the first one only promises muscle while the other promises overall superior fitness. You're either not a native english speaker or being purposefully obtuse. I am a regional finalist wrestler from Nevada, captain of my wrestling team, volleyball team and I played both soccer and football as well during high school. I've done it the athlete way, I've now done it the "bulking" way. I'm saying from personal experience and my current training for a Tough Mudder event in October, bulking and gaining strength as fast as possible works better than what you're advocating. It has become clear to me you're talking out your ass and trolling these threads for amusement. I only take the time to respond so that people who don't know better come in here and actually listen to you. I'll try one last time just in case you're mentally deficient. What do muscles need to grow. They need "fuel". What's going to grow muscles faster? Eating at or above maintenance? If your answer is eating at maintenance, there's nothing that can be said or done to help you. YOU WILL GET STRONGER EATING MORE FOOD THAN IF YOU HAD EATEN LESS FOOD. IT WILL BE GROSS AND ICKY BECAUSE SOME FAT WILL ACCOMPANY THE MUSCLE GAIN. THE HUMAN BODY IS NOT PERFECT AND DOES NOT UTILIZE ALL CALORIES IN AND CONVERT IT TO MUSCLE. THEREFOR YOU HAVE TO EAT MORE THAN YOU WOULD HAVE TO EAT IF THE CONVERSION WAS AT 100%. ONCE YOU REACH YOUR STRENGTH GOALS YOU CAN STOP EATING AT SUCH A HIGH LEVEL AND THEN EAT BELOW MAINTENANCE TO CUT YOUR WEIGHT TO WHERE YOU WANT TO BE WHILE MAINTAINING YOUR NEW STRENGTH LEVELS. Think that about covers it. I await your response where you once again speak in circles and don't really say anything other than "blah blah you meatheads don't know shit about health blah blah blah" Edit: I look at what I was as a wrestler in peak shape and what I am today and I wish every damn day I knew then what I know now. I would have bulked up and then cut back down and been so much better. Strength is the #2 factor in improving athletic performance. Sport-specific training is #1. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On August 01 2012 16:57 Miyoshino wrote: I'd like to see one study that shows that when you are getting fatter, that will also put your body in the optimal state for muscle gain. I don't think the mechanisms for putting on fat and putting on muscle are associated with each other. At least I have seen no studies. He doesn't need to go on a low calorie diet, but he certainly doesn't need to 'bulk'. Just a sensible clean diet with the proper ratio of macronutrients. Eat about 0.8 g/kg of lean body mass of protein. Get about half of the protein from plant sources, more is better since animal protein is associated with many health problems. Then eat a lot of fruit and vegetables and eat about as many calories you use burn. No reason to eat a lot more or a lot less. Muscle always gains slow. It's only bodybuilders that bulk and cut, and they are on the gear. Oh and maybe American football players and sumo wrestlers that actually want all that fat because weight is weight. But of course they only bulk. You 'know' it works. Let me tell you a little secret. If you are on a bulking diet, you are doing creatine, you are talking protein shakes two or three times a day, you will see the scale move and you will see your body bloat up. But you will not have much real strength because you haven't actually gained that much muscle. It only looks that way. You will see a thin skinny girl like Zoe Smith completely outperform you. So yeah you have a pick. Do it the bodybuilding&supplement industry way or do it the athlete way. And the first one only promises muscle while the other promises overall superior fitness. And where the hell does that bold part come from? Are you a world class nutritionist? If yes I apologize and maybe I need to get on your program. Edit: You have a ton of people here on TL who have done it the SS "bulking" way and shown incredible results. Who are you? What results do you have? Are they better than ours? I'd like to see what you can do, but no, you're all talk and bullshit. Double Edit: Have you even seen decafchicken? The resident rugby god? (Sorry phyre  ) | ||
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
There's just the issue of people putting out fad diets that catch on because they sell people what they want. You can just make a lot of money telling people they can get healthy eating unhealthy stuff they love to eat. No need to apologize. we can all learn a thing or two from others. With SS you mean Starting Stength? Mark Rippetoe is a very good weight lifting technique coach. He isn't a nutritionist. If you want to learn how to lift weights you listen to Rippetoe. If you know what to eat you listen to the medical doctors that are metabolism experts and that did the long term large sample size peer reviewed studies. Simple as that. Mark Rippetoe is overweight himself. I am sure he can still lift a ton. If being like Mark Rippetoe is your goal and assuming he practices what he preaches, do what he does. Even if it is right you need to gain fat to gain max muscle, you definitely don't want to go that road because fat sucks. Better to have less muscle and low fat than high fat and even higher muscle. You can see the physique of olympic swimmers every day now on tv. In a while you can see how the 100 and 200m spring guys look. If you want to look like that you do what they do. If you want to look like a powerlifter, do what they do. If you want to look like one of Rippetoe's students, do what they do. Now I just saw some of the pictures Rippetoe posted of his students. I'd rather look like myself untrained than like his students. But that's just me. It's all up to you. This guy did very impressive on losing a lot of weight and now he's pretty lean. I don't get it why he should throw it all out of the window again. If he eats a ton he is gonna gain more than he lost. The body knows that fat reserves were seriously depleted and is anxious to rebuild them to prevent possible starvation, which genes think is the no.1 danger because of evolution. | ||
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billy5000
United States865 Posts
On August 01 2012 15:44 Miyoshino wrote: Bulking and cutting is a myth. You can gain muscle while losing fat. You can gain muscle while doing triathlons. There is only one study where they followed ultra runners on the TransEurope-FootRace with a 45 ton MRI scan. These people ran 2800 miles in 2 month and they got an MRI each day. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/10/78/abstract http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20101129/running-through-pain-good-idea These runners did indeed lose muscle mass. But they only lost it in the legs. Why? Because they were overtraining and damaging the muscles. They didn't lose any other muscle. Cardio doesn't burn muscle. Overtraining does. If muscle fibers are too damaged, if there is too much corticosteroid in your system, you degrade muscle. Only bodybuilders think they need to bulk and cut. Do you think Bolt went through a bulk and a cut? This guy needs some muscle and strength training for sure. But there's no reason for him to get fat first. Every day people sign up witha gym. These people then start to train and after several months they have lost fat and gained muscle. Many of these people are older and unfit people. These people aren't told to get even fatter first. No, they just start to work out both cardio and strength and they do it. If the human body were unable to both lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, the human species would have gone extinct a long time ago. This guy lost 25 pound. Now I was never an overweight person and because of my lifestyle and genetics I may never be so I'm lucky. But I imagine it's fucking hard to do. So now people are telling him to eat an excess of 1000 calories a day again with lots of fat and protein? I'd say that for your overall health cardio is a lot more important than strength training. Cardio makes you healthy. Strength training not so much. So if you aren't only interested in aethetics I'd suggest getting a cardio goal as well and do both. It's convenient if you have both your fat and muscle percetages measured so you can track your progress nicely. Bulking then cutting isn't a myth. It works. If you mean that the only way to gain muscle is by bulking and cutting, I agree that it's a myth but no one's said that. I see a personal recommendation and nothing more. | ||
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On August 01 2012 18:18 Miyoshino wrote: This is common knowledge in the athlete/fitness world based on recent science. Not sure exactly what you are hinting at specifically. There have been a lot of recent studies into protein requirements for athletes and we basically know what food is healthy and what isn't nowadays and almost all people know that. Fat and sugar and high calorie diets are bad. Chocolate ice with cream is bad. Spinach is healthy. Diets high on animal fat and protein increase risks of cancer and heart disease long term, high fiber diets don't. Huge portions are bad, portion control is good. No rocket science there. There's just the issue of people putting out fad diets that catch on because they sell people what they want. You can just make a lot of money telling people they can get healthy eating unhealthy stuff they love to eat. No need to apologize. we can all learn a thing or two from others. With SS you mean Starting Stength? Mark Rippetoe is a very good weight lifting technique coach. He isn't a nutritionist. If you want to learn how to lift weights you listen to Rippetoe. If you know what to eat you listen to the medical doctors that are metabolism experts and that did the long term large sample size peer reviewed studies. Simple as that. Mark Rippetoe is overweight himself. I am sure he can still lift a ton. If being like Mark Rippetoe is your goal and assuming he practices what he preaches, do what he does. Even if it is right you need to gain fat to gain max muscle, you definitely don't want to go that road because fat sucks. Better to have less muscle and low fat than high fat and even higher muscle. You can see the physique of olympic swimmers every day now on tv. In a while you can see how the 100 and 200m spring guys look. If you want to look like that you do what they do. If you want to look like a powerlifter, do what they do. If you want to look like one of Rippetoe's students, do what they do. Now I just saw some of the pictures Rippetoe posted of his students. I'd rather look like myself untrained than like his students. But that's just me. It's all up to you. This guy did very impressive on losing a lot of weight and now he's pretty lean. I don't get it why he should throw it all out of the window again. If he eats a ton he is gonna gain more than he lost. The body knows that fat reserves were seriously depleted and is anxious to rebuild them to prevent possible starvation, which genes think is the no.1 danger because of evolution. I like how you kee attacking other people for not relying on science, while constantly suggesting your arguments are supported by science, without actually posting any science. Anyway, here are some articles based on scientific research stating that 1.5-2g of protein per kg is needed. http://www.livestrong.com/article/382071-muscle-growth-and-bodybuilding/ http://breakingmuscle.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-you-need-science-weighs http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/body_size_and_shape2/increasing_muscle_mass There are more, but that should be enough. I especially like the factsheet by Australian Sports Commission. I can't believe you keep using professional sports people as examples. Michael Phelps looks great, we all agree. However, he trains 6-7 hours a day and east 12,000 calories a day to make sure his muscles have enough fuel. If you want to compare the average guy who does sport to the average gym rat, you'll see the gym rat who uses his supplements is WAY more muscled than the guy who just does sport for a living. I know, I did four hours of sport a day every day of my life in school and I was scrawny as fuck. Lean with a few muscles, sure, but the muscles were so small that even weighing 5kg less than I do now, you could barely see them. I'm not saying the average gym rat is doing things correctly, anything but, the average gym rat is retarded. However, your argument that you should train like a sportsperson is even worse. I love the fact that you bring Zoe Smith into this. Good on you for bringing in an actual weightlifter: My diet is quite high protein and low in carbs as I normally have to lose around 2-3kg to compete in my weight category (58kg). I get a lot of my protein from supplements (I use Maximuscle) but I also eat a lot of salmon, steak, chicken etc. So not only does she use protein shakes and supplements, she had to CUT 2-3kg before competition. Also, this has been pointed out quite a few times, but I'll reiterate. To optimally build muscle, you have to ensure that your body has enough calories available. By having less calories available, you'll still build muscle, but you'll build muscle more slowly. Ideally, you'd want to eat the perfect amount of food where every resource you have is being used to build muscle (which would still gain you weight). However, since it's impossible to know how much that is, the general guideline is to eat 500 calories more than your body needs a day. This should be enough to lead to optimal muscle growth without you picking up too much weight (1.6kg a month). You will pick up weight, but most of it will be muscle. A small amount of it will be fat. However, in your own words, it's possible to become stronger while eating at a deficit. If that's the case, why is being slightly overweight bad? All you do is eat at a deficit for 1-2 months (as I suggested), and not only have you gotten stronger, you're back down to a lean bodyweight with lots of extra muscle. As you say, this is not rocket science and saying that the mechanisms for putting on fat and muscle are not related is not just dumb, it illustrates a serious lack of knowledge for someone claiming to know the science. Just in case you still don't understand this, because you've mentioned it a few times now, fat doesn't facilitate getting stronger! Fat is an externality of eating enough to optimize strength gains. Also, as you say, fat sucks. That's why most people do bulking and then cutting. Even worse than being slightly fat is being skinny fat. I went from a completely untrained 80kg to a semi-trained 88kg and I looked a lot better at 88kg. Then I cut down to 81kg again and I look way way better. I started somewhere close to a good weight for me, and accidentally ate 1000 calories a day more, rather than 500, which is why I had to cut 7kg after bulking. However, the guy who is posting is starting off at least 5kg under a good weight for him, so he'll have a much shorter cut. Added to that, Cloak wants to build muscle, are you seriously suggesting cardio is better for you than weightlifting? Great advice. Added to that, you actually call us unscientific and then say that cardio is better for your health than weightlifting: http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/Web2007/ExerciseComp.htm http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/CIRCULATIONAHA.107.185214v1 http://weighttraining.about.com/od/techniquesandstrategies/a/weight-training-aerobic-training.htm I'll quote the abstract from the American Heart Association article: Prescribed and supervised resistance training (RT) enhances muscular strength and endurance, functional capacity and independence, and quality of life while reducing disability in persons with and without cardiovascular disease. These benefits have made RT an accepted component of programs for health and fitness. The American Heart Association recommendations describing the rationale for participation in and considerations for prescribing RT were published in 2000. This update provides current information regarding the (1) health benefits of RT, (2) impact of RT on the cardiovascular system structure and function, (3) role of RT in modifying cardiovascular disease risk factors, (4) benefits in selected populations, (5) process of medical evaluation for participation in RT, and (6) prescriptive methods. The purpose of this update is to provide clinicians with recommendations to facilitate the use of this valuable modality. I hope that clears things up. | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
Myo, bulking and cutting works. But it's not the only way you're right. It's more about a conscious decision to work towards a goal. When I was bulking I didn't eat enough to put on a lot of fat but I was also trying to eat 4500 calories a day. I have a six-pack yet I've gained 10 lbs. I'm the same height as this guy and weigh 15+ lbs more than him and really pleased with my results. What everyone is saying is it's just plain easier to not worry about gaining fat, and worry about losing it after the muscle comes. I've also tried the "gain mass while eating maintenance or whatever felt normal" approach before lifting. It sucks and nothing happened. It could work but for skinny people who are paranoid about getting fat (that was me) you just have to get them to realize it's not a big deal if their goal is strength and muscle. More important than finding the latest and most relevant studies is actually listening to the person asking for advice: On July 31 2012 20:26 KTF_CloaK wrote: Hi, I've been having trouble deciding if I should cut further or begin bulking up. I have lost around 25 pounds to get where I am today and frankly I'm a bit paranoid about bulking and gaining weight (and muscle ofcourse) but I do want that lean toned body, with strength gains ofcourse. Here are my stats: 71 kg (156 lbs) 182 cm (6') 17 years old I am planning to do Starting Strength for my bulk, three times a week, eating 3000-4000 cals a day. So, should I cut a bit more and then bulk, or start bulking up now? And how many calories should I consume? The ultimate goal for me is a ripped body and I hope I can accomplish that in a year or so. The plan is now to maybe bulk for 6 months depending on progress (n00bgains haha) and then a cut of 6 months. Thanks in advance guys! The guy has a year long goal. He can take the easier bulking route that tons of people have done successfully or painfully try to put on muscle while watching to make sure his abs still show in the mirror for a year. It's his choice I think a lot of us like to share our experience with SS. Since he stated in his question he's doing SS it's assumed those are the results he wants. That's why Daigomi asked him a bunch of follow up questions to make sure his advice was good and see if he could tailor it anymore to what KTF wanted. You can't criticize that. I mean you act like a victim when you bring up a contrary view. Whatever, I don't care but you spout of stuff like this: You 'know' it works. Let me tell you a little secret. If you are on a bulking diet, you are doing creatine, you are talking protein shakes two or three times a day, you will see the scale move and you will see your body bloat up. But you will not have much real strength because you haven't actually gained that much muscle. It only looks that way. You will see a thin skinny girl like Zoe Smith completely outperform you. Do you not understand what Starting Strength is? It's not bodybuilding. I have never taken creatine. I had one protein shake post workout. My squat went from 185 to 290 3x5. Yeah, it's definitely doing nothing, I should become like a skinny girl. That's what KTF was obviously asking how to be like. | ||
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386&page=1 The point is not if it works or not. I never said you cannot gain muscle when you are gaining fat. Obviously you can gain muscle while gaining fat. Im just saying it's bad. Gaining fat is bad, always, and it doesn't help gaining additional muscle. As for protein intake, obviously you can't take so much protein that you impede gaining muscle. Muscle require protein and water and at some point there's a minimum. The scientific studies done try to find this lower limit. At some point they had a study that concluded it could be 1.2 gram / kg. It doesn't mean eating less does inhibit it. In fact, as I said recent studies have shown it is .8 gram / kg or maybe lower. One paper is Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes by Tarnopolsky et al. Most people already eat well above the .8 gram / kg. Some people think that eating more will somehow encourage muscle growth. This is not the case. The body has little use for excess protein as it cannot be stored. Using protein powder isn't fundamentally bad. It is a way to consume protein without consuming a lot of fat or calories. But let's establish here that there is a very old myth that goes back to the ancient greek athletes that athletes need steak. This is also what motivated all that protein intake and athletes studies. Way back science even believed muscles burned protein, not carbs. As for having to make the weight. Every sport where you need to make a certain weight means you have to lose 2 or 3 kg before you are weighted. You can either lose 3 kg of muscle or 3 kg of water. Which one will you want to lose? So obviously Zoe Smith needs to 'cut'. But using that term in this context is purely equivocating the matter. Zoe Smith doesn't look like an amateur weightlifter or bodybuilder that read up on broscience on the internet and thinks he needs to bulk and take lots of protein shakes&creatine. They and fat will make you look bloated and you will look bigger. But it has little to do with athletic ability or muscle gain. As for Phelps, normal people can look like that. You don't need to take steroids, train 6 days a week to look like that. To perform like that, yes. But that's another issue. But that's besides the point. If Phelps is muscular enough for you, why do you need to bulk when Phelps doesn't? Going back to Rippetoe's students. Most of them are young people. They are told to go on a diet that suddenly puts a lot of fat on their body. That's just very bad for your health even if it does indeed put on more muscle. Another problem is that I believe many people will enthusiastically start to lift weights and eat tons of food. But then when to cut? My bet is that for most that 'cutting phase' never happens or just won't amount to much. But this is all changing the burden of proof. I'd like to see a study that shows you need to gain fat to gain muscle. It just seems that not having to do any cardio and being able to eat steak is just a very popular idea and that's why it is so widespread on the internet. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On August 02 2012 00:51 Miyoshino wrote: This is how you look when you use Rippetoe with bulking: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386&page=1 The point is not if it works or not. I never said you cannot gain muscle when you are gaining fat. Obviously you can gain muscle while gaining fat. Im just saying it's bad. Gaining fat is bad, always, and it doesn't help gaining additional muscle. Wrong. My doctors would dance for joy if I gained fat. Too low BF% is horrible for you. Plenty of the guys here show their progress, and don't look like that guy. Your specific weight gain in fat/muscle is naturally going to be affected by total caloric intake, and quality of diet. I'm no expert, but I've got 5 bucks that says the diet you're suggesting isn't some universally perfect diet. Actually, how about a little bet? If I can tell you of a specific scenario where the diet you're on about is horribly unhealthy, you stop talking about it? | ||
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
Let me rephrase, if you are starved or an anorexia patient, gaining fat is the best thing in the world. But in a society where like 60% of the people are overweight and half of those are obese, fat is bad. He just lost 25 pounds. Why he needs to gain fat? I never suggested people starve themselves. In fact, I'd say that for many people looking like an athlete or a ripped Holywood star may not be the best thing for you. If you put a large part of your body fat on your belly you will only have that super impressive abs when you are at a too low bodyfat percentage. I don't know why this is even brought up when discussing a 5000+ calories a day for people who do no cardio at all and then gain 20 or more lbs of fat in a short period. And before you decide to put on about 10 kg of fat, you better have read several studies that show this is the right way to go. Haven't seen any. Maybe people have great results. But it seems to me that based on what we know about the human body, they would have even greater results if they did things differently. | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
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