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On September 13 2011 21:57 Snapplecakes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 18:52 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 18:34 Zafrumi wrote:well then go do that  its not rocket science! eating more than BMR = gain weight. eating less = lose weight. Which is why I am asking about how does one go about losing body fat percentage, not how does one go about losing weight ?=p Since someone at 80kg and 5% body fat and someone at 80kg and 25% body fat is a pretty large difference. focus on hitting 3500 kcal on workout days for now and close to 2k on off days drink milk if you have to..
I was told that I should focus on eating the same amount of kcals regardless of working out (assuming I work out regularly\3 times a day, like I Do.) Since the days I am not working out, the body is still in recovery anyway\building up muscle. so its just as important to eat as much on the off days as it is on the on days, is this wrong?
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On September 13 2011 23:26 Zafrumi wrote:
so high intensity workouts (lifting and HIIT) burn calories after the actual workout? how does that work, exactly?
Some cases it's EPOC -- excess post oxygen consumption -- look that up if you want
I don't think "muscle building" stimulus is quantified in the literature as anything though but its more of the hypertrophy/hormonal base modifications to body composition.
On September 13 2011 23:32 Earll wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 21:57 Snapplecakes wrote:On September 13 2011 18:52 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 18:34 Zafrumi wrote:well then go do that its not rocket science! eating more than BMR = gain weight. eating less = lose weight. Which is why I am asking about how does one go about losing body fat percentage, not how does one go about losing weight ?=p Since someone at 80kg and 5% body fat and someone at 80kg and 25% body fat is a pretty large difference. focus on hitting 3500 kcal on workout days for now and close to 2k on off days drink milk if you have to.. I was told that I should focus on eating the same amount of kcals regardless of working out (assuming I work out regularly\3 times a day, like I Do.) Since the days I am not working out, the body is still in recovery anyway\building up muscle. so its just as important to eat as much on the off days as it is on the on days, is this wrong?
Depends on your goals.
Personally at your height and weight I think you should eat excess and build muscle. Then focus on cutting fat weight later.
But if you want to go the approach on minimizing fat gain and trying to look good while you add muscle then you should be eating isocalorically.
But all this is moot if you don't pick one and do it. So stop asking questions and just do one or the other.
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@Eshlow. For the nutritional sticky, maybe include some of the myths with nutrition and whether they are right or wrong? Specifically I'm thinking the "six meals a day to stoke that metabolism bro" one.
I don't know if you showed us the whole sticky or not, just figured I'd put it out there.
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On September 13 2011 23:42 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 23:26 Zafrumi wrote:
so high intensity workouts (lifting and HIIT) burn calories after the actual workout? how does that work, exactly? Some cases it's EPOC -- excess post oxygen consumption -- look that up if you want I don't think "muscle building" stimulus is quantified in the literature as anything though but its more of the hypertrophy/hormonal base modifications to body composition. Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 23:32 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 21:57 Snapplecakes wrote:On September 13 2011 18:52 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 18:34 Zafrumi wrote:well then go do that its not rocket science! eating more than BMR = gain weight. eating less = lose weight. Which is why I am asking about how does one go about losing body fat percentage, not how does one go about losing weight ?=p Since someone at 80kg and 5% body fat and someone at 80kg and 25% body fat is a pretty large difference. focus on hitting 3500 kcal on workout days for now and close to 2k on off days drink milk if you have to.. I was told that I should focus on eating the same amount of kcals regardless of working out (assuming I work out regularly\3 times a day, like I Do.) Since the days I am not working out, the body is still in recovery anyway\building up muscle. so its just as important to eat as much on the off days as it is on the on days, is this wrong? But if you want to go the approach on minimizing fat gain and trying to look good while you add muscle then you should be eating isocalorically. But all this is moot if you don't pick one and do it. So stop asking questions and just do one or the other.
Isocalorically is eating a lot on days I work out and less on days I do not work out? And I am sorry for asking questions I guess  But its hard to pick one and do it when I don't know what there is to pick, or how I am to do it. I know a bit more now though ^_^
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On September 13 2011 23:49 Catch wrote:
@Eshlow. For the nutritional sticky, maybe include some of the myths with nutrition and whether they are right or wrong? Specifically I'm thinking the "six meals a day to stoke that metabolism bro" one.
I don't know if you showed us the whole sticky or not, just figured I'd put it out there.
It's already posted in the new sticky which is in the new forum.... which is not public yet.
I believe I addressed it enough....
Here are some more details on categorical weight loss and practical eating. (I am not addressing bulking because well most people look to the stickies for weight loss).
1. As said before I prefer the high quality foods approach. In terms of protein which helps improve weight loss you should be eating a fist size hunk of meat, fish, birds, or eggs every meal.
2. Eat slowly. The faster you eat the more calories you ingest before you "feel full."
3. Eat 'til you are a full (if on the high quality food approach). If this feels wrong, then eat 'til you are 80% full. If you are on the calories approach then obviously this is more clear cut on calories per meal.
4. Meal frequency matters very little in losing weight. Generally, anything between 3-5 times works well. Alternatively, intermittent fasting works well too.
5. Remember, if your goal is to gain weight you must increase the calories you are eating.
Beyond that, here are some additional resources and details on the why's, the what's, the how's
Meal freq linked to leangains article ^^
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On September 13 2011 23:51 Earll wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 23:42 eshlow wrote:On September 13 2011 23:26 Zafrumi wrote:
so high intensity workouts (lifting and HIIT) burn calories after the actual workout? how does that work, exactly? Some cases it's EPOC -- excess post oxygen consumption -- look that up if you want I don't think "muscle building" stimulus is quantified in the literature as anything though but its more of the hypertrophy/hormonal base modifications to body composition. On September 13 2011 23:32 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 21:57 Snapplecakes wrote:On September 13 2011 18:52 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 18:34 Zafrumi wrote:well then go do that its not rocket science! eating more than BMR = gain weight. eating less = lose weight. Which is why I am asking about how does one go about losing body fat percentage, not how does one go about losing weight ?=p Since someone at 80kg and 5% body fat and someone at 80kg and 25% body fat is a pretty large difference. focus on hitting 3500 kcal on workout days for now and close to 2k on off days drink milk if you have to.. I was told that I should focus on eating the same amount of kcals regardless of working out (assuming I work out regularly\3 times a day, like I Do.) Since the days I am not working out, the body is still in recovery anyway\building up muscle. so its just as important to eat as much on the off days as it is on the on days, is this wrong? But if you want to go the approach on minimizing fat gain and trying to look good while you add muscle then you should be eating isocalorically. But all this is moot if you don't pick one and do it. So stop asking questions and just do one or the other. Isocalorically is eating a lot on days I work out and less on days I do not work out? And I am sorry for asking questions I guess But its hard to pick one and do it when I don't know what there is to pick, or how I am to do it. I know a bit more now though ^_^
Eat more on ALL days.
Eat the same on ALL days.
It's that simple. Pick one.
There's no reason to be doing any kind of caloric cycling per specific days at novice level.
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FUCKING SUCCESS
So I signed up at Harajuku Gold's Gym in Tokyo. Today, I went to their basement gym, which is pretty much a fucking dungeon: poor lighting, no AC, rustic equipment. BUT, there are three squat racks (plus two more on the other floor) and an OLY LIFTING PLATFORM. It's literally tucked in the darkest corner, and no one uses it. Too bad they don't have proper bumper plates, just plastic ones, but I'm content.
I also used chalk today, no one said anything.
SUCCESS.
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On September 13 2011 22:50 Zafrumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 22:36 eshlow wrote:
Cardio can be effective for weight loss, but really you're burning about 100-150 kcals per mile doing it. So if you're running a light say 10 minute mile for most new people to exercising you're burning at most 60 min/10 min mile = 6 *150 kcals = 900 kcals.
As you train more, the body reduces the amount of calories you use to run so it's decreasing gains. In your case where you are out of shape to not even get 1 mile....
1 lbs of fat is 3600 kcals. So basically if you run 4 times a week you'll be burning just 1 lbs of fat.
This is why nutrition is THE MOST important thing for weight loss. You can do 500 kcal deficit per day and lose about 3600 kcals in a week.
Weight training, in particular, is useful because it creates the stimulus to build muscle. Muscle is very calorically expensive to build which means if you are on a calorically restricted diet the body can consume the fat for energy to build the muscle. This is why we recommend lifting over cardio for fat loss.
Lifting also increases cardiovascular fitness; maybe not as well as cardio or running but that can be done later when you have better work capacity. I'm curious: lets say I do a regular SS workout (squat/bench/dl) at fairly heavy weights, does that really burn more calores than the cardio I could do in the same amount of time? 900kcal per hour doesnt sound so bad to be honest. I have no idea how many calories I burn in a good lifting session
Besides everthing eshlow already said, 900kcal per hour does not sound bad because it is not bad. As is often said, you won't find too many overweight runners, which actually run regularly and not just after they feel bad because eating a whole cheescake. One session of intense running (and I am speaking about running here, since it is surely not nearly the same thing as some cardio-machine) surely burns more calories than one session of intense lifting. But when weight-lifting actually increases your metabolism long-term, while running basically doesn't develope any musculature to speak of (probably more the opposite), that is just the big difference. I know from experience, as soon as you stop running you have a problem, but as long as you keep going it is all fine. Fixing nutrition is just the better solution than hoping to run for the next 30 years straight.
As long as it doesn't cut in your lifting-recovery, there is no reason not to go for a run once in a while if you like it and want to lose some additional fat. But at least for me, it cuts pretty hard into recovery, so I basically "allow" myself one run a week. and never between heavy lifting days.
edit: and yeah, the commercial 55%Vo2max all smiles no sweat run doesn't cut it, it needs some intensity, as eshlow showed when analyzing that study.
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So uhh...
I was doing bench press at the gym yesterday. And guess what happens... Some random guy starts bitching about my bench pressing technique because I touch my chest with the bar. He is saying you should go 10-15 cm's above your chest or else you put the weight on your shoulders.
I have hurt my shoulders a bit from doing that before I think, so there may be truth to what he's saying. I don't bounce the bar off my chest though so it's not because of that. Everyone says otherwise though, my chest doesn't go out too far so I have to go lower than most people too.
Congrats Cambium! ^^ Glad I'm not at the stage where I do those lifts with those weights yet since mine wont allow it.
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Tuck your elbows, touch the bar maybe a little lower on your chest and ignore that fool.
It is the curse of the rookies to have lower chests because they haven't got all the muscle to shorten the range of motion but that will resolve itself with time.
Also congrats Cambrium!
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On September 13 2011 23:51 Earll wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 23:42 eshlow wrote:On September 13 2011 23:26 Zafrumi wrote:
so high intensity workouts (lifting and HIIT) burn calories after the actual workout? how does that work, exactly? Some cases it's EPOC -- excess post oxygen consumption -- look that up if you want I don't think "muscle building" stimulus is quantified in the literature as anything though but its more of the hypertrophy/hormonal base modifications to body composition. On September 13 2011 23:32 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 21:57 Snapplecakes wrote:On September 13 2011 18:52 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 18:34 Zafrumi wrote:well then go do that its not rocket science! eating more than BMR = gain weight. eating less = lose weight. Which is why I am asking about how does one go about losing body fat percentage, not how does one go about losing weight ?=p Since someone at 80kg and 5% body fat and someone at 80kg and 25% body fat is a pretty large difference. focus on hitting 3500 kcal on workout days for now and close to 2k on off days drink milk if you have to.. I was told that I should focus on eating the same amount of kcals regardless of working out (assuming I work out regularly\3 times a day, like I Do.) Since the days I am not working out, the body is still in recovery anyway\building up muscle. so its just as important to eat as much on the off days as it is on the on days, is this wrong? But if you want to go the approach on minimizing fat gain and trying to look good while you add muscle then you should be eating isocalorically. But all this is moot if you don't pick one and do it. So stop asking questions and just do one or the other. Isocalorically is eating a lot on days I work out and less on days I do not work out? And I am sorry for asking questions I guess But its hard to pick one and do it when I don't know what there is to pick, or how I am to do it. I know a bit more now though ^_^
do what snapplecakes said. I've been bulking on such a setup and it makes me realize how piss poor returns of muscle:fat gains you get from overeating on non workout days. It won't inhibit your strength gains at all to do a 3500 / 2000. I've taken my benchpress from 72.5kg to 82.5kg in 7 weeks on that protocol with almost 0 fat gains. The problem of eating excess kcal on all days is that you get fat far faster. Everybody in this thread says you can diet the fat away after and it's easy, but they're dead wrong. Dieting away fat is a science and a mental struggle and the less fat you gain while you bulk, the better.
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On September 14 2011 00:46 Sinep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 23:51 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 23:42 eshlow wrote:On September 13 2011 23:26 Zafrumi wrote:
so high intensity workouts (lifting and HIIT) burn calories after the actual workout? how does that work, exactly? Some cases it's EPOC -- excess post oxygen consumption -- look that up if you want I don't think "muscle building" stimulus is quantified in the literature as anything though but its more of the hypertrophy/hormonal base modifications to body composition. On September 13 2011 23:32 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 21:57 Snapplecakes wrote:On September 13 2011 18:52 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 18:34 Zafrumi wrote:well then go do that its not rocket science! eating more than BMR = gain weight. eating less = lose weight. Which is why I am asking about how does one go about losing body fat percentage, not how does one go about losing weight ?=p Since someone at 80kg and 5% body fat and someone at 80kg and 25% body fat is a pretty large difference. focus on hitting 3500 kcal on workout days for now and close to 2k on off days drink milk if you have to.. I was told that I should focus on eating the same amount of kcals regardless of working out (assuming I work out regularly\3 times a day, like I Do.) Since the days I am not working out, the body is still in recovery anyway\building up muscle. so its just as important to eat as much on the off days as it is on the on days, is this wrong? But if you want to go the approach on minimizing fat gain and trying to look good while you add muscle then you should be eating isocalorically. But all this is moot if you don't pick one and do it. So stop asking questions and just do one or the other. Isocalorically is eating a lot on days I work out and less on days I do not work out? And I am sorry for asking questions I guess But its hard to pick one and do it when I don't know what there is to pick, or how I am to do it. I know a bit more now though ^_^ do what snapplecakes said. I've been bulking on such a setup and it makes me realize how piss poor returns of muscle:fat gains you get from overeating on non workout days. It won't inhibit your strength gains at all to do a 3500 / 2000. I've taken my benchpress from 72.5kg to 82.5kg in 7 weeks on that protocol with almost 0 fat gains. The problem of eating excess kcal on all days is that you get fat far faster. Everybody in this thread says you can diet the fat away after and it's easy, but they're dead wrong. Dieting away fat is a science and a mental struggle and the less fat you gain while you bulk, the better.
I disagree with this. There has to be enough kcals on off days -- that is mainly when the muscles are growing. His body isn't able to mobilize fat as well at this stage which is critical for body recomp.
I'd hit 2750k each day. There's no big thing where you need to be having all of the kcals after workout -- if anything you want most of them post workout.
For a novice there's no real point in making things complicated here. Caloric cycling is not as useful at this point.
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On September 13 2011 23:58 Cambium wrote:
FUCKING SUCCESS
So I signed up at Harajuku Gold's Gym in Tokyo. Today, I went to their basement gym, which is pretty much a fucking dungeon: poor lighting, no AC, rustic equipment. BUT, there are three squat racks (plus two more on the other floor) and an OLY LIFTING PLATFORM. It's literally tucked in the darkest corner, and no one uses it. Too bad they don't have proper bumper plates, just plastic ones, but I'm content.
I also used chalk today, no one said anything.
SUCCESS.
I'm jelly. Wish I had a good gym to go to
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I'm with eshlow on this. Eat the same amount of calories every day. (I suggest eating more than 2750 though, aim for 3100, yeah you will gain more fat, but probably more muscle too. If you're too thin you will only look good with your shirt off, if you got sub 10% bf. More mass always looks good.)
Use those beginner gains to the fullest, so what if you gain a little more fat. If you're not already at a very low bodyfat that shouldn't be any concern.
I'd rather gain as much as possible with more fat, then don't gain all that is possible cause i'm scared to get fat.
It's just like when you're on steroids, eat as much as possible to get everything out of your cycle.
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Today:
My friend finally came, he will post too. He was like...i am weak, he will push/press/pull more than me in a month ezz, he has more of a weightlifting body :D
Squat: 60kg 5-5-5-5-5
OHP: 40kg 5-5-5-5-3 :/
Deadlift 100kg 5
After that i do 5 laps of running and after everylap 2 pullups, hopefully trains what i like, after running i can recover quickly and do strenght exercise but lets see what our godly eshlow says about it. Cant wait for new forum, fun thing await us!!
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I have a weird relationship with Fitness and TeamLiquid.
The reason I decided to get back in shape was because of the "Nada's Body" thread in BW. Came in this thread, discovered reddit and, long story short, I still need new pants.
They barely fit in the past because I was getting too fat. Now, it's getting difficult to keep them on even with a belt ^^
Yay! I still haven't reached my goal of being The Super Nerd. But.... soon ^^
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Hello TLHF! I have been lurking here quite a while and would like to improve myself aswell. My first training was with inimenesc so I am the person who he referred to.
Crawler
Age: 21 || Height: 184 cm || Weight: 96 kg
Starting Date: 13/09/11 || Goal Date: 31/12/11
Weight goals -- 80kg
Training goals -- Increase my squat, bench, deadlift etc numbers by a little but mainly training to lose weight so I won't expect much.
Nutrition goals -- Will stop buying foods every day that have been cooked and warmed already. There's nothing much else to change as it was really that big of a problem
Misc goals -- Would be nice to run 5km under 25minutes ( ~40min+ used to be my time when I wasn't so fat yet ) and do 10 pull-ups (2 is my current record)!.
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On September 14 2011 00:46 Sinep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 23:51 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 23:42 eshlow wrote:On September 13 2011 23:26 Zafrumi wrote:
so high intensity workouts (lifting and HIIT) burn calories after the actual workout? how does that work, exactly? Some cases it's EPOC -- excess post oxygen consumption -- look that up if you want I don't think "muscle building" stimulus is quantified in the literature as anything though but its more of the hypertrophy/hormonal base modifications to body composition. On September 13 2011 23:32 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 21:57 Snapplecakes wrote:On September 13 2011 18:52 Earll wrote:On September 13 2011 18:34 Zafrumi wrote:well then go do that its not rocket science! eating more than BMR = gain weight. eating less = lose weight. Which is why I am asking about how does one go about losing body fat percentage, not how does one go about losing weight ?=p Since someone at 80kg and 5% body fat and someone at 80kg and 25% body fat is a pretty large difference. focus on hitting 3500 kcal on workout days for now and close to 2k on off days drink milk if you have to.. I was told that I should focus on eating the same amount of kcals regardless of working out (assuming I work out regularly\3 times a day, like I Do.) Since the days I am not working out, the body is still in recovery anyway\building up muscle. so its just as important to eat as much on the off days as it is on the on days, is this wrong? But if you want to go the approach on minimizing fat gain and trying to look good while you add muscle then you should be eating isocalorically. But all this is moot if you don't pick one and do it. So stop asking questions and just do one or the other. Isocalorically is eating a lot on days I work out and less on days I do not work out? And I am sorry for asking questions I guess But its hard to pick one and do it when I don't know what there is to pick, or how I am to do it. I know a bit more now though ^_^ do what snapplecakes said. I've been bulking on such a setup and it makes me realize how piss poor returns of muscle:fat gains you get from overeating on non workout days. It won't inhibit your strength gains at all to do a 3500 / 2000. I've taken my benchpress from 72.5kg to 82.5kg in 7 weeks on that protocol with almost 0 fat gains. The problem of eating excess kcal on all days is that you get fat far faster. Everybody in this thread says you can diet the fat away after and it's easy, but they're dead wrong. Dieting away fat is a science and a mental struggle and the less fat you gain while you bulk, the better.
I disagree completely. For a smaller guy trying to gain weight, your muscles are rebuilding at ALL time during your rest days, and you need to get the calories and protein into the body to make use of it. I wouldn't go so far as to say eat 3500 calories, but for me (BMR ~2400ish? 2900 when modulated for activity level) who wants to gain weight, I'm aiming (counting cals) to get 3100+ calories every single day, and it's still a challenge to put on weight. Losing fat afterwards is a JOKE for me; Give me three weeks from where I am now, and I could be six-pack abs, but I don't want to be there, I want to be maximizing the potential that I have for muscle growth, because I'm still stick-skinny.
@inimene; Doing pullups that way should be pretty fine... Is two "failure" for you, or is it just an arbitrary number? You should be aiming to constantly increase the total number of them that you do, whether that is more sets, more reps per set, or adding weight to them doesn't matter.
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Two isnt failure, 4 maybe 5 is
Yeah i might increase that, but it is after my SS workout, so i cant increase it too much, i will kill my shoulders then, especially on OHP day.
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On September 14 2011 01:58 Crawler wrote:
Hello TLHF! I have been lurking here quite a while and would like to improve myself aswell. My first training was with inimenesc so I am the person who he referred to.
Crawler
Age: 21 || Height: 184 cm || Weight: 96 kg
Starting Date: 13/09/11 || Goal Date: 31/12/11
Weight goals -- 80kg
Training goals -- Increase my squat, bench, deadlift etc numbers by a little but mainly training to lose weight so I won't expect much.
Nutrition goals -- Will stop buying foods every day that have been cooked and warmed already. There's nothing much else to change as it was really that big of a problem
Misc goals -- Would be nice to run 5km under 25minutes ( ~40min+ used to be my time when I wasn't so fat yet ) and do 10 pull-ups (2 is my current record)!.
I'm almost same height/weight/age as you and can't imagine dropping down to 80kg! imo aim for a higher weight than that with a lower bf %
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EPT
