This is not a discussion topic on whether you think women should run separate tournaments. This is a thread for the NESL Iron Lady events.
If you would like to sign up or wish them well or offer aid and support, this is the place. If you want to complain about the work they've put in or their message, don't. This is your warning. - Jibba 16:18PM EST / 05:18 KST
With much anticipation and some hard work, National Electronic Sports League (NESL) is proud to present our new Starcraft 2 section for female gamers: Iron Lady. It will be a place for high level tournament play and fun. Check all the latest news on up coming cups and leagues at ironladysc2.com or follow us on twitter @IronLadyESL!
The Vision To start off, some may be wondering, why a section only for girls? The vision behind the Iron Lady section is to provide a place for female gamers to thrive in a male dominated sport. The goal will be to provide the highest quality tournaments and leagues, so that the top female gamers can finally shine just as much as the top male gamers do with no intimidation. The idea was prompted to us by ESL EU Female Gaming in order to provide a tournament ground for western based female players. You have seen several successful cups from their end, and now we will provide the same.
Every month you will get to play in a cup and compete for cash prizes. They will run on Saturdays at an early afternoon time unless too many players are having an issue with the time. Top place finishes will receive the money prize and the recognition on the Iron Lady homepage. As popular and activity increases, more cups will be ran throughout the month. As the section grows you will find more events in higher frequency. Frequently check ironladysc2.com or subscribe to our forums to be the first to hear about any new upcoming events.
We can provide the system for you should you want to run your own female event! NESL Iron Lady can provide female cups, leagues, and ladders to anyone with a passion or a dream to run their own female event. If you request more information on this, please send an inquiry by clicking Here
The Community It is important that we build a community of motivated and strong gamers that is united. Our forums and events is not the only grounds for meeting up with the other female gamers of Starcraft 2. We invite you to like and join the facebook communities below to stay connected with other female gamers who share your passion and love of the game!
My name is Daniel Brooks, known as D4nny at NationalESL, and better known as pHaRSiDe.358 on battle.net. I head all SC2 operations at NESL. I am joined by Andrea Soto aka Yui , and is also known as Yui.183 on Battle.net. She is the Master League Admin of Iron Lady.
Not a female player but looking to help out? We are always looking for help! Join our staff by sending an application here
We are on the hunt for sponsor support and/or coverage partners for our organization. If your organization or company is looking to help out with prize support, merchandise support, or coverage please email me at D4nny@staff.esl-america.net
Nice to see female ESPORTS getting more attention. Especially with the ESL section and Facebook page you give easy access to Female gaming events with out to much hassle.
Western gender roles dictate that masculinity be expressed through competition. Competition, then, becomes the domain of men. Women who compete in sport must then be "father-didn't-love-me-enough" cases or "bull dykes" for the want for competition is not a quality seen as feminine. Men separate themselves from their peers through competition, women by cultivating and maintaining relationships. Video games have been, for the most part, designed by men for boys and men. If the goal is to grow the StarCraft 2 scene (read as: bigger market, more money, larger talent pool, mainstream exposure) beyond the typical demographic (teenaged/20 something males) then efforts must be made to reach out to those groups of people. Things like IronLady do just that.
Kind of stupid if you ask me. No offense to female gamers, but why should they get there own tournaments that exclude male players? Do tournaments exclude women from them? No. I think this is just meant to make female players stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in normal tournaments?
On June 10 2011 06:12 Mikey wrote: Kind of stupid if you ask me. No offense to female gamers, but why should they get there own tournaments that exclude male players? Do tournaments exclude women from them? No. I think this is just meant to make female players stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in normal tournaments?
Yeah, it's sad, but more tournaments is good I suppose, and it encourages female participation which the game does lack. I think it's sexist as hell, but oh well.
On June 10 2011 05:55 Zumm wrote: The few women playing professionally normally don't stand a chance against the male competitors.
That's not because men have a natural advantage though, they're probably just a lot more dedicated and practice more. This is not a game of physical strength or endurance, if women wanted to compete with men they could, however it seems like they'd rather not as the pro scene is highly competitive and requires an immense amount of dedication and training to get into in the first place.
Much like chess, this is more a game of the mind than it is of the body (Of course dexterity is very important aswell, but women aren't at a particular disadvantage there either.)
As jenze so eloquently stated above me, men are just generally more competitive than women and tend to put more time and effort into beating others and being the best, therefore these tournaments are created that are a little bit more casual and not so intimidating as some of the bigger events.
This is all just one opinion of stereotypes and gender roles that do not necessarily apply to the individual. I apologise if I have offended anyone with this statement / rant, I sincerely hope the Iron Lady succeeds and I wish it well.
On June 10 2011 06:12 Mikey wrote: Kind of stupid if you ask me. No offense to female gamers, but why should they get there own tournaments that exclude male players? Do tournaments exclude women from them? No. I think this is just meant to make female players stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in normal tournaments?
Why is there a German only online SC2 league? Why shouldn't Swedes be allowed to play in it? I think it's just meant to make Germans stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in tournaments that have Swedes?
On June 10 2011 06:12 Mikey wrote: Kind of stupid if you ask me. No offense to female gamers, but why should they get there own tournaments that exclude male players? Do tournaments exclude women from them? No. I think this is just meant to make female players stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in normal tournaments?
Can you say with a straight face that there is a lack of open tournaments available to male gamers? Realize this is not meant for just excluding male gamers because their male, its about growing a community that is very small, but is there. You can't grow a female community in open cups because they are hidden behind the male gamers.
NESL, as well as ESL EU provides several open tournaments, including Go4SC2, and Dailymotion, as well as ladders. That is just ESL, now think of all the other tournaments available.
Please try to understand this, and not look at it from a selfish stand point
If roles were reversed and you had to deal with something like this : you would want a place to game freely as well :D
I think women esports should be compaired to golf, with the distance pentaly for man females are hitting the ball far enough (lets say a drive is +- 30 yards less for women). Their putting and and approaches should be onpar with the male competitors because that isnt all about power, but still the male competitors are putting wayyy better then the females. So i can totally understand the female competition instead of a mixed competition
for the eternal debate of why should or shouldn't exist female leagues, my answer is the following: as the scene is so dominated by males, it is a good idea to make female only tournaments where they both get exposure and promote gaming to other females. In addition, and most importanty, the best gamers from these female tournaments, after getting some experience and exposure, could try to hit into the main scene. In other words: female tournaments are a great idea to help females to get into the main scene, because while in theory they have no handicaps in comparison to men, simply the male-centric nature of the main scene holds back female who would like to try luck with pro gaming.
i support a joint main scene, but to reach this "gender unity" steps like this female sc2 league who will (hopefully) popularize pro gaming between women and female gamers among men is a great initiative
On June 10 2011 06:12 Mikey wrote: Kind of stupid if you ask me. No offense to female gamers, but why should they get there own tournaments that exclude male players? Do tournaments exclude women from them? No. I think this is just meant to make female players stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in normal tournaments?
Bob and Tina do the same job for the same company. They have the same experience, same qualifications and have been with the company for the same amount of time. For every dollar that Bob makes, Tina makes 0.79 cents. We can agree that that is unfair, right? The trouble that most men have, in my experience, is not understanding that this inequity is wrong. Where men seem to trip up is as follows. There is only so much pay to go around and to make Bob and Tina equal, Tina's pay must come up AND Bob's must go down.
Now let me relate that back to e-sports. Do female only tournaments limit, even if ever so slightly, the amount of tournaments available for males to enter? Yes. Is that "fair"? I guess it depends on how you define the word fair.
As I've said before, video games have long been the domain of teenaged to twenty something men. From all indications here on TL, OneMoreGame, Day9's daily, the goal of those involved in the competitive e-sports scene is to grow it as much as possible. That means reaching out to people outside of that demographic. Female only tournaments are a means (and I agree, maybe not the best) to that end.
So can it just be policy now to put a warning at the top of every female tournament that gets announced now? Something like "Discuss the tournament. Do not discuss whether there should be female only tournaments."
It's getting kind of old seeing that same discussion every time one of these tournies announced.
if this is whats needed to increase the diversity in our community by getting more girl gamers to come out into the open then I'm all for it. Hopefully it will lead to girl gamers getting more integrated and so on but first and foremost all the retarded youngsters out there not knowing how to talk to a girl to shut the fuck up or learn a thing or two about how to talk to someone of the opposite sex(hello stream chat during State of the game when a girl is on).
Either way I think this is better than nothing, but whatever.
On June 10 2011 07:52 Torte de Lini wrote: Is it just me or is the sponsored sub-forum now becoming the most controversial place with a lot of arguments and disagreements?
Best of luck with the tournament, really interesting seeing an all-females thing go on.
No, unfortunately people feel the need to derail every single thread related to female only tournaments.
Let's not shit up this thread with the same argument for the 10000000x time please guys, it's getting old and it's been established as seriously misguided.
On June 10 2011 06:12 Mikey wrote: Kind of stupid if you ask me. No offense to female gamers, but why should they get there own tournaments that exclude male players? Do tournaments exclude women from them? No. I think this is just meant to make female players stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in normal tournaments?
Why is there a German only online SC2 league? Why shouldn't Swedes be allowed to play in it? I think it's just meant to make Germans stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in tournaments that have Swedes?
Not to be mean but you'll only get acceptance by the community if you do not set yourself aside because of your gender. You get acceptance from people because of your personality and the way you present yourself.
This is why I am fundamentally against female-only leagues. It only provokes more mockery and intimidation towards gaming women, rather than reducing it. One example you may end up hearing is "Oh well they aren't able to keep up with men so they got their own petty league lol! /4chan" or something alike.
Edit: Other than the rant above. Good luck with the tournament.
On June 10 2011 08:44 TheOne85 wrote: Why is having this necessary?
It's not a physical attribute that keeps female gamers from participating at the higher levels...
I really don't think this is good for the whole of esports.
Playing against/with the best makes you better and that is common consensus between every pro player in every competitive scene.
Yes its not good to promote for females to play on a tournament level. You know how rediculous you sound man?
Not every player starts off playing against the best, that is intimidating. It begins with casual play, and small scale tournaments. Our function is the stepping stone to bring more females into the scene which will obviously transition over to the open cups. It pains me you find an event promoting the growth of a scene is not good for the whole of esports. Its making you sound pretty selfish.
Please read the vision before posting a statement like that.
On June 10 2011 06:05 jenzebubble wrote: Western gender roles dictate that masculinity be expressed through competition. Competition, then, becomes the domain of men. Women who compete in sport must then be "father-didn't-love-me-enough" cases or "bull dykes" for the want for competition is not a quality seen as feminine. Men separate themselves from their peers through competition, women by cultivating and maintaining relationships. Video games have been, for the most part, designed by men for boys and men. If the goal is to grow the StarCraft 2 scene (read as: bigger market, more money, larger talent pool, mainstream exposure) beyond the typical demographic (teenaged/20 something males) then efforts must be made to reach out to those groups of people. Things like IronLady do just that.
What's the deal with starting off saying "western" gender roles? Ever heard of foot binding, the at one time mainstream Chinese tradition of breaking the arches of women's feet so that they conform to a more ideal idea of "femininity". But I digress, the reality is that male domination of competitive sport is a world issue, and although it may seem appropriate to view the situation through an exclusively gender based perspective, I think it's worth considering that from a cost analysis standpoint most female specific competitive ventures end up failing and costing their investors a great deal. Whether or not e-sports could be the excpetion remains to be seen.
I'm starting to think after being blind to the problem for 24 years, I'm dyslexic. I read "Iron Lady Lunch" and thought this was some kind of iron chef spin off. I think I need to see a mental health professional >.>
My thoughts on the subject are these: Why don't you encourage more females to represent their gender in tournaments? I'm seeing a lot of female only clubs but not as many women in the NASL. Can't we just have a drive to encourage equality among all gamers instead of dividing ourselves into niches, when we are already a small segment of society?
On June 10 2011 06:12 Mikey wrote: Kind of stupid if you ask me. No offense to female gamers, but why should they get there own tournaments that exclude male players? Do tournaments exclude women from them? No. I think this is just meant to make female players stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in normal tournaments?
Bob and Tina do the same job for the same company. They have the same experience, same qualifications and have been with the company for the same amount of time. For every dollar that Bob makes, Tina makes 0.79 cents. We can agree that that is unfair, right? The trouble that most men have, in my experience, is not understanding that this inequity is wrong. Where men seem to trip up is as follows. There is only so much pay to go around and to make Bob and Tina equal, Tina's pay must come up AND Bob's must go down.
how does this relate to starcraft at all? I mean... really?
I wish you guys (Girls) the best of luck with your tourneys and sponsor hunt! I think it will be interesting to see a female only league as I have not watched any of the EU ones.
If we want ESPORTS to grow then we need to have leagues for women only. We see this in almost every single sport that is televised. Yes many of the women's leagues get much lower viewership but I think a lot of people will tune in to these tourneys. I'm still unsure how you go about making sure every player is actually a girl. There is bound to be people wanting to take advantage of this especially if there is money on the line.
On June 10 2011 05:19 cheetahlol wrote: Is it just me, or am I the only one who doesn't understand the purpose of having a female gaming league?
so girls can play and compete? I think that would be like asking " why have bronze/silver/ lower league tournaments?".
How is that like asking "Why have bronze/silver/lower league tournaments". Are you saying women can't compete at the same level as men? im a little lost by what you're saying...
I don't understand the notion of us "needing more girls in esports" or "its good for esports". What difference does it make, and more importantly how will it make that difference? Interesting people will always be fun to watch or listen to. As will people who can play the game at high levels.
On June 10 2011 06:23 Regina wrote: I think women esports should be compaired to golf, with the distance pentaly for man females are hitting the ball far enough (lets say a drive is +- 30 yards less for women). Their putting and and approaches should be onpar with the male competitors because that isnt all about power, but still the male competitors are putting wayyy better then the females. So i can totally understand the female competition instead of a mixed competition
Those limitations are due to physical strength.. There's no reason to divide females from competition. If you want to eliminate stereotypes and the whole gender roles attitude, females should be willing to compete at the same levels as males in e-sports. It's disappointing to see that these female only leagues are still coming about, I was really hoping this sort of attitude would disappear.
There are a lot of sports out there who aren't supportive of females playing in male teams, I'm not talking about SC2 of course.
I think this is a good start, since gals can play in their own gender based tournament, they can later on start to join the normal tournaments. I think what people don't understand(joking) is that most SC2 players are male. =P
When you start female tournaments word will get out and maybe even more gals will pick up the game. Which means more may start playing in the regular tournaments, there are a few gals who do compete in the regular tournaments already and others who are getting their skill level higher and also are getting used to tournaments.
On June 10 2011 10:35 GertHeart wrote: There are a lot of sports out there who aren't supportive of females playing in male teams, I'm not talking about SC2 of course.
I think this is a good start, since gals can play in their own gender based tournament, they can later on start to join the normal tournaments. I think what people don't understand(joking) is that most SC2 players are male. =P
When you start female tournaments word will get out and maybe even more gals will pick up the game. Which means more may start playing in the regular tournaments, there are a few gals who do compete in the regular tournaments already and others who are getting their skill level higher and also are getting used to tournaments.
Start small it'll branch out on it's own. gl hf.
Just when I was starting to get worried that humanity has lost its sense. Thank for you for this post that of course will still fail to show everyone the entire point of this ESL section.
We are not here to state girls are better than guys or vice versa, we are launching this section to encourage for female gamers to take part in tournaments.
Female tournaments are way less intimidating than the mixed cups. This casual start will help them get their footing and then branch out to other mixed cups. So people please stop acting like the females who play in our organization will stick to only this organization forever.
We are bringing more people to the scene and doing it in a way where no matter what, a female will get the spotlight and the attention, something you will not see in mixed cups. The reason why that is important is because once again it encourages more females to play.
This could be related to a bronze/silver/plat/etc restriction for a few reasons. Number 1, sure theoretically a girl does not have less skill than a guy, but theoretically a bronze player doesn't lack the means of practicing and getting better. But to keep that bronze player motivated, its sometimes good to hold bronze cups so that the bronze players can feel some spot light as well. Its not about someone not being on the same level as someone else. Its about shining the light on more than just your standard top players.
So inconclusion stop pretending there is a lack of male/open cups where the best players are getting the spot light. Stop pretending the scene is so divided up that girls never encounter the guys. We are doing a good thing here people, not a bad thing.
So you loose faith in humanity when people question you?.. hmm.... I have no problem with the league was just wondering why people claim women are necessary for growth of esports. I think both sides of the argument get out of hand and have crazy ass posts. I do realize women are a huge demographic, but in this instance i doubt a bunch of women will watch SC 2 over american idol
Hehe, don't get the wrong idea, I welcome the questions, but I already answered why we are doing this and the intention behind it, but yet people still keep getting it twisted.
while I dont think it's bad that female only tournaments are started it cements something that for some reason has become a established fact. Girls can not competete on equal terms with guys, even when the competition is in a virtual world where our advantage in physical strength is irrelevant. From tossgirl to les seules there has never been a girl among the top of the top among gamers. It's might seem strange, but since the sample is huge (we have been gaming for almost 20 years now, competetive pvp gaming has been around since counterstrike.) the only conclusion is that men are better suited to gaming and female only leagues will probably be our only chance of seeing girls gaming in a professional envoirment
It doesn't set any standards like that. If you had the option to play with people who you share very few similarities with and often annoy the shit out of you, while on the other hand people who are like minded to you it would be an easy choice. Would be the same reasons why women go out in groups and men go out in groups. And I am sure it will have some competitive mentality but i doubt as much. You will most likely never see a MLG woman champion, so let them have their fun it doesn't hurt anyone.
Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
Ive always wondered, why arent girls as good at gaming as guys? there are girls that play this game to be good, evident by the tournaments, but lets be honest, ive NEVER seen a top pro girl. Toss girl is prob the closest?
And its not like football where physical superiority is a huge factor, sc2 is all about thinking, strategy, and attention to detail. (the latter of which is even a trait that is more prominent in females)
Way to press the segregation that already exists in the video gaming community. Majority of guys want e-vag, way to make a central place for all of them to get it.
I'm kinda ashamed of the fact that we still have these arguments every time a female tournament comes up. We've done this quite a few times already. Just let the ladies have fun and play SC2 in an environment where they won't get harassed for who they are. Why is that so hard to understand?
On June 10 2011 13:25 L3g3nd_ wrote: Ive always wondered, why arent girls as good at gaming as guys? there are girls that play this game to be good, evident by the tournaments, but lets be honest, ive NEVER seen a top pro girl. Toss girl is prob the closest?
And its not like football where physical superiority is a huge factor, sc2 is all about thinking, strategy, and attention to detail. (the latter of which is even a trait that is more prominent in females)
Im not being sexist by any means, just curious
I'm assuming it's because of the small number of women that play. Out of all tens of thousands of SC2 male players, there are only a special few that have the dedication and determination to make it to pro status. Now given Navi's statistic, we know that there is a very very small number of women that play. Thus the chances of a seeing a pro female gamer is low. Also, take a look at the gender stereotypes that are in effect in our society. Women are tacitly encouraged by their families to pursue other activities, rather than gaming. This gender reinforcement begins the day an expecting couple wallpapers the baby's room pink.
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote: Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
This is not a valid argument, there is nothing stopping you from joining any normal facebook starcraft group. I'm sure the "males of starcraft group" would have smaller numbers than any main community group too. You can choose any irrelevant minority and make special tournaments for them if you want, but the idea itself is just silly. And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out. Affirmative action does not belong in esports.
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote: Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
This is not a valid argument, there is nothing stopping you from joining any normal facebook starcraft group. I'm sure the "males of starcraft group" would have smaller numbers than any main community group too. You can choose any irrelevant minority and make special tournaments for them if you want, but the idea itself is just silly. And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out. Affirmative action does not belong in esports.
You attempted to counter her argument with one of the weakest counter arguments I have seen. Lets pick you apart sentence by sentence:
"This is not a valid argument, there is nothing stopping you from joining any normal facebook starcraft group." Except the fact that most males go crazy and immature at the sight of a girl playing sc2. Hence they want to have a group for themselves to avoid that.
" I'm sure the "males of starcraft group" would have smaller numbers than any main community group too. " This has nothing to do with anyting, and I'm not even sure why you said it. You trying to imply that there is actually a huge base of female players and the facebook group does not show the real numbers? you can't be that clueless..
" You can choose any irrelevant minority and make special tournaments for them if you want, but the idea itself is just silly." Right, because gender is an absolute irrelevant minority. That makes no sense. This isn't a cup for people who like to wear sandals <- that is irrelevant minority. In what world is gender irrelevant minority? "And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out." We need more gamers period, and the purpose of this is cup is to build a new base of gamers that otherwise find it intimidating or difficult to gain notice or spotlight. FYI, fans of SC2 can be girls too, I know it may come as a shock to you..
"Affirmative action does not belong in esports." Now you just show your true colors of what type of person you are period with this statement..
Haters gonna Hate though..
tl;dr you are selfish as the 1912109283901 cups and leagues amounting to well over $100k dominated by males is still not enough for you to give some leeway for some other competitions to highlight other people. Sorry you feel this way.
On June 10 2011 08:44 TheOne85 wrote: Why is having this necessary?
It's not a physical attribute that keeps female gamers from participating at the higher levels...
I really don't think this is good for the whole of esports.
Playing against/with the best makes you better and that is common consensus between every pro player in every competitive scene.
Yes its not good to promote for females to play on a tournament level. You know how rediculous you sound man?
Not every player starts off playing against the best, that is intimidating. It begins with casual play, and small scale tournaments. Our function is the stepping stone to bring more females into the scene which will obviously transition over to the open cups. It pains me you find an event promoting the growth of a scene is not good for the whole of esports. Its making you sound pretty selfish.
Please read the vision before posting a statement like that.
Discrimination and segregation is bad for any community. I guess I did not make that clear enough.
If the female gamers want to be singled out and play in a tournament of their own, sure have fun... I will still have the opinion that it's most likely distasteful and offending to female gamers. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure they want to fit in rather than stick out.
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote: Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
This is not a valid argument, there is nothing stopping you from joining any normal facebook starcraft group. I'm sure the "males of starcraft group" would have smaller numbers than any main community group too. You can choose any irrelevant minority and make special tournaments for them if you want, but the idea itself is just silly. And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out. Affirmative action does not belong in esports.
It's a perfectly valid argument, if you're not a complete idiot. How you read her post and got to affirmative action, I have no idea - the very idea that you would equate the two with a straight face blows my fucking mind. How is a system that gives hiring preference to certain minorities so as to create a more diverse workplace even remotely fucking comparable to creating a facebook/reddit group for just female gamers, or a tournament only for female gamers? They have literally nothing to do with one another in any conceivable way, shape or form. In fact, creating a female-oriented site, facebook group, tournament, etc. is pretty much the exact opposite of what you're calling 'affirmative action', because the goal in those spaces is NOT diversity - it's creating a separate space for female sc2 gamers so that the larger male sc2 gamer community doesn't overshadow them completely.
Look at it this way- by creating this site they're trying to increase the number of women who are interested in SC2. To do that, you might want to appeal to female gamers using a different website layout, a different tournament scene, different language, different social networking groups, etc. Do you speak to women the same way that you speak to men? Do you advertise to women in the same way that you do to men? So why would you think that you'd spark interest in SC2 within the female gamer community by using the same methods, language, websites, community role models etc. that you would with the male gamer community? It's just common sense.
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote: Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
I support women who play. However I do not see a good way of mixing in well with the community of you mark yourself as different. If you're a good player you're a good player regardless of gender. The more you put yourself as different because you happen to be female, the more you'll be looked upon as pretty-faces by a massive majority of the male demographic. Note, I do not support this behaviour either ,but that's the way it is. Only way to change that is to show people you're better with them on equal terms.
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote: Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
I support women who play. However I do not see a good way of mixing in well with the community of you mark yourself as different. If you're a good player you're a good player regardless of gender. The more you put yourself as different because you happen to be female, the more you'll be looked upon as pretty-faces by a massive majority of the male demographic. Note, I do not support this behaviour either ,but that's the way it is. Only way to change that is to show people you're better with them on equal terms.
Mark ourselves as different? Reality to you -- we are different. Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars. (I have no idea what that book espouses, but I think you get the point)
Peter Roby, director of the Center for the Study of Sport in Society at Northeastern University in Boston, said he thought the increasing number of female fans helped explain football's growing popularity. "The thing that has contributed in the last 20 years to the NFL's growth is the number of females who are passionate about football," he said. "It seems to me that the females are as passionate as the men." ... Marti Barletta, author of "Marketing to Women" and founder of the TrendSight Group, a consulting firm based in Winnetka, Ill., said other major sports would do well to learn from the NFL's example. "I think it's essential for the big sports to be making friends with women, because women buy the majority of sports merchandise," she said. "So if nothing else, it's just good business."
i get the need for an female esports league, a friend of mine was in a "high level" cs1.6 female team. Back in those days, there werent that many girls around.
this is just like athletics, man are just doing it for so much longer then females, History shows that men have these abilities by practising since the stoneage. Woman would cook and care for the children, sitting on there butt. While men were running around getting chased by a sabletoothtiger because they missed the crucial shot (accuracy was a also a bitch back then )
hope u guys get my point
then there is also the thing about confirming once identity, are the competitors really girls? how do u confirm something like that? get them on webcam to show them there boobs midgame? It WOULD give the livestream some amazing viewcount, but thats about it
oh, and its just hot to see a girl kick some sc2 ass
User was warned for this post
erm, ok, u dont get my point.
my point was: FEsports is a really good thing, but there are some things different then with regular esports...
After reading this thread (and similar threads) ,i came to a conclusion that most of the guys in this community are so insecure about anything related to girls. Seriously ,just mention the words "female" ,"girl" or woman" and "esports" or "sports" in one sentence and everything explodes.It's like kindergarten ,where all the boys starts giggling when they see a girl.For fucks sake...This is getting embarrassing.
I really hope ,that such female tournaments will open up some eyes around the community and we'll start seeing a more diverse gender distribution (aka not 100% guys and 0% girls) in tournaments.
Also ,to the guy who tried to use "history" as a basis to explain why there shouldn't be/there aren't any girls in e-sports and etc...You should REALLY get your facts straight ,before making such arguments.
I really see no reason why girls can't compete in high-end tournaments (NASL,MLG,dreamhack and etc).What.Does using a keyboard/mouse require a huge amount of muscle mass?Stamina?Give me a break.All you need is willpower to not break to mind games and pressure.And basic knowledge of mechanics.Lots of practice and experience.Girls are just as good at micro/macro/multitasking/decision making as guys.The only difference is ,that the already small female community is being chopped up into pieces ,because of the ridicule they get if they TRY to get into the e-sports scene.
This thread is a great example. I suppose it's the internet.Can't expect much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
On June 10 2011 05:19 cheetahlol wrote: Is it just me, or am I the only one who doesn't understand the purpose of having a female gaming league?
Can you please explain what problem this causes. Girls do not participate in e-sports. this gives them an opportunity. Why is that bad? Why isn't it good? I think it is a very good thing.
On June 10 2011 14:33 Odal wrote: And I don't see why we specifically need more women in starcraft 2, we need more starcraft 2 fans, not of any specific gender to balance it out. Affirmative action does not belong in esports.
We don't need them, but if they want to play, who are you to say how they should go about it?
I think also the bulk of girls that would play SC2 wouldn't play to be competetive unless a special field was arranged for them. My girlfriend for example played WoW, but never ever went near PvP. The whole idea of competition after all is largely an ego-driven thing i.e "I want to show this guy I am better than him." Don't try and deny it, we've all felt that little thrill over grinding someone into the dust.
There are always exceptions of course. But I would suggest that the vast majority of female gamers aren't in it for the competition because they lack that abstract idea of 'oh yeah I am so much better than you little nerdy guy, give me your damn ladder points'.
On June 10 2011 15:24 Savreth wrote: I support women who play. However I do not see a good way of mixing in well with the community of you mark yourself as different. .
It's the guys that mark them as different. They do not treat them the same way they treat girls. And that is the point.
You try going to a gay convention or club and you'll see exactly what problem straight women have with groups of straight men. Most people have good intentions, but it is annoying.
Women will not participate until THAT changes. And it won't until females are more established. This is one way to do it.
On June 10 2011 18:08 Sernyl wrote: After reading this thread (and similar threads) ,i came to a conclusion that most of the guys in this community are so insecure about anything related to girls. Seriously ,just mention the words "female" ,"girl" or woman" and "esports" or "sports" in one sentence and everything explodes.It's like kindergarten ,where all the boys starts giggling when they see a girl.For fucks sake...This is getting embarrassing.
I really hope ,that such female tournaments will open up some eyes around the community and we'll start seeing a more diverse gender distribution (aka not 100% guys and 0% girls) in tournaments.
Also ,to the guy who tried to use "history" as a basis to explain why there shouldn't be/there aren't any girls in e-sports and etc...You should REALLY get your facts straight ,before making such arguments.
I really see no reason why girls can't compete in high-end tournaments (NASL,MLG,dreamhack and etc).What.Does using a keyboard/mouse require a huge amount of muscle mass?Stamina?Give me a break.All you need is willpower to not break to mind games and pressure.And basic knowledge of mechanics.Lots of practice and experience.Girls are just as good at micro/macro/multitasking/decision making as guys.The only difference is ,that the already small female community is being chopped up into pieces ,because of the ridicule they get if they TRY to get into the e-sports scene.
This thread is a great example. I suppose it's the internet.Can't expect much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck with your tournament.
i think u are referring to me, but erm, with my "history" part, i just ment that girls have a disadvantage on men, not that there shouldnt be/arent any girls in e-sports.
on the contrary, i would LOVE to see some girl SC2 action, girls tend to be very creative.
and with my "boobs" line i ment what u say. Loads of people will only see the "boobies" and not the skill of the girls
im sorry if my replies are offending people in some way, they are not ment to do that.
oh, and its just hot to see a girl kick some sc2 ass .
This is precisely the problem. As long as they are in a significant minority, this attitude from males is keeping them away. You mean well, but it is annoying to girls to basically be told that we just think they are hot, we don't care about your skills.
I have some experience coaching both girls and guys in RL sports, and girls simply have different motivations than boys. Put simply, I would say that males in general want to succeed individually, and females are more driven by the team aspect, and the social part of being in a team. This is a generalisation of course, but does anyone think that a female team league might have more success attracting players for the above reason?
oh, and its just hot to see a girl kick some sc2 ass .
This is precisely the problem. As long as they are in a significant minority, this attitude from males is keeping them away. You mean well, but it is annoying to girls to basically be told that we just think they are hot, we don't care about your skills.
but its directly how it is in real life.. why would it be any different in sc2? that is the main problem that im trying to discus here, but i lack the social skills to get my mind on paper.
girls will be girls, boys will be boys, and boys think with their penis when it comes to girls. This is something the Female athletics community even has no control over it.
so my point is, as long as there are girls, a good portion of the viewers will watch the stream "with their penis"
example: do u think sharapova would have had an even amount of succes if she was buttugly?
i think not, and that is how at this moment the world works. wether we like it or not
but its directly how it is in real life.. why would it be any different in sc2? that is the main problem that im trying to discus here, but i lack the social skills to get my mind on paper.
girls will be girls, boys will be boys, and boys think with their penis when it comes to girls. This is something the Female athletics community even has no control over it.
so my point is, as long as there are girls, a good portion of the viewers will watch the stream "with their penis"
So you think that is just life and girls should not try to create an environment for themselves where they can escape it? This is girls taking responsibility for their own enjoyment of the game. I do not understand why this is a problem.
but its directly how it is in real life.. why would it be any different in sc2? that is the main problem that im trying to discus here, but i lack the social skills to get my mind on paper.
girls will be girls, boys will be boys, and boys think with their penis when it comes to girls. This is something the Female athletics community even has no control over it.
so my point is, as long as there are girls, a good portion of the viewers will watch the stream "with their penis"
So you think that is just life and girls should not try to create an environment for themselves where they can escape it? This is girls taking responsibility for their own enjoyment of the game. I do not understand why this is a problem.
its not a problem, ill just stop talking now, because everything i say somehow gets the reaction opposite of what i ment.
I Think that a requirement should be webcam or cellphone recording of atleast 1 win. Behind every good starcraft 2 female player, there's a boyfriend that showed em the game. i dont think its much to ask for to say in finals for example, record 1 game with monitor and her showing with a cellphone or webcam. I watched some other tournament and a surtain female protoss became very good all off a sudden and apm increased drastictly also decision making became very good, i wasn't buying that at all. Even if they do have a mic, the risk that someone is sitting next to them playing is just as big.
On June 10 2011 18:18 Harmonious wrote: This is precisely the problem. As long as they are in a significant minority, this attitude from males is keeping them away. You mean well, but it is annoying to girls to basically be told that we just think they are hot, we don't care about your skills.
Um, he didn't say that. He basically said the exact opposite - that girls are hot to him BECAUSE of their skills. Just like some girls/guys have a "thing" for musicians, athletes, etc. A person can be attractive to someone for reasons other than their looks.
Ontopic: great idea, makes me sad that our society is still male-centric and socially unevolved in many ways, but as long as that fixes itself, female-only leagues are basically a requirement. GLHF to everyone involved
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote: Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
I support women who play. However I do not see a good way of mixing in well with the community of you mark yourself as different. If you're a good player you're a good player regardless of gender. The more you put yourself as different because you happen to be female, the more you'll be looked upon as pretty-faces by a massive majority of the male demographic. Note, I do not support this behaviour either ,but that's the way it is. Only way to change that is to show people you're better with them on equal terms.
Mark ourselves as different? Reality to you -- we are different. Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars. (I have no idea what that book espouses, but I think you get the point)
Hit and miss. You seem to miss my point that I am not looking at the fact that one is physically different than another. I am looking at the fact that we're humans, we're equal in all ways and this should be the way things go from my perspective.
Gender should not matter in the eSports scene. You're standing out because you're a good player and if you feel the need to join a specific league for women only to get more attention to females playing games, then in my eyes anyone loses credibility to say "we're constant victims of harrass". Instead of showing that YOU as a female gamer are better or equal skilled to male gamers, you let them put you in the corner "Oh they need their own league as they can't compete with us.
This kind of ignorance bothers me, especially because "most" women who think like this end up crying the most when people do treat them as different people instead of being one of the community.
There are separate men and women leagues for almost any sport out there, even in sports that do not require a considerable amount of physcial strength (i.e. Pool, bowling, etc.) and yes, I feel that E-sports to a degree meets those parallels.
In general, men and women also view competition differently from each other, but this has been covered to death in previous posts, so I won't re-hash.
in my opinion, this is a huge step forward. period.
On June 10 2011 20:10 Micro[TN] wrote: I Think that a requirement should be webcam or cellphone recording of atleast 1 win. Behind every good starcraft 2 female player, there's a boyfriend that showed em the game. .
I believe they said they will ask everyone to get on vent/skype and answer some SC2 related questions ... and anyway, lots of us are regularly talking and playing together, so we kinda know each other ... If some dude would be that persistent to pretend to be female for months, just to be able to participate in a female tournament with symbolic money prizes, they need to get their head checked =p
This tournament has not even happened yet, but already has brought many female SC2 players together and has created a nice little community.
It's easy for a guy to just go to the local LAN place and meet lots of other individuals with the same interests. I can honestly admit that I have been too intimidated to do that, and I know many others are feeling the same. It's not easy to try to be part of the "boy's club" (obviously I'm talking about girls that genuinely have passion for the game itself, not just a different kind of interest in the male players >.>). And while I do know a lot of gamer girls in my city, no one of them is really into SC2. So discovering them online has been totally amazing.
There's a 5th page of people talking out their ass now. This is incredible. I hope you're all satisfied that in every thread about women in the SC2 community, there's an embarrassingly stupid discussion proving absolutely nothing other than the individual user's ignorance.
On June 10 2011 21:32 NaviListen wrote: There's a 5th page of people talking out their ass now. This is incredible. I hope you're all satisfied that in every thread about women in the SC2 community, there's an embarrassingly stupid discussion proving absolutely nothing other than the individual user's ignorance.
I'd gladly discuss this in a specific topic. It's a very loaded subject, and it's something that is actual. However, calling people out like that is uncalled for. No matter what gender you are or how good you play. Maybe reactions like this, avoiding the discussion and calling it "talking out of their ass" is what causes the problems which makes YOU feel the need for a ladies-only league.
On June 10 2011 21:32 NaviListen wrote: There's a 5th page of people talking out their ass now. This is incredible. I hope you're all satisfied that in every thread about women in the SC2 community, there's an embarrassingly stupid discussion proving absolutely nothing other than the individual user's ignorance.
I'd gladly discuss this in a specific topic. It's a very loaded subject, and it's something that is actual. However, calling people out like that is uncalled for. No matter what gender you are or how good you play. Maybe reactions like this, avoiding the discussion and calling it "talking out of their ass" is what causes the problems which makes YOU feel the need for a ladies-only league.
Think outside the box.
I don't think Navi is saying "don't discuss this", Navi is probably frustrated because every single time someone posts something about a ladies tournament, a few people bring up the same old tired arguments (e.g. "I don't see why this is necessary", etc.), and the thread ends up getting hijacked by very negative people.
This thread is about Iron Lady. If you want to harp on about the more general topic of women in SC2, take it to that other thread; but honestly, it has been discussed to death already.
Frankly, I think we should all support people working hard to grow e-sports.
Perhaps you missed my contribution earlier that everybody seems to have skipped over in favor of arguing about "equality" like you are.
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote: Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
On June 10 2011 22:13 Savreth wrote: Think outside the box.
Indeed, why don't you?
There are tournaments for people going to a certain school, or living in a certain city, or working for a certain enterprise (Blizzard had an internal one, didn't they). So what's the big deal with the women's tournament all of a sudden? I could understand if the main prize was a code S spot or something, but as it is now, some people are getting way too worked up over this one =p
If I organize an internal tournament in my workplace, I don't think anyone will come screaming that they want to participate too ...
Good luck with your tournament! Hopefully enough of these tournaments can encourage the closet Starcraft girls to come out of their hiding places, and show that competing in Starcraft 2 is just as normal for girls as tennis, volleyball, handball etc. has been until now.
On June 10 2011 22:13 Savreth wrote: Think outside the box.
Indeed, why don't you?
There are tournaments for people going to a certain school, or living in a certain city, or working for a certain enterprise (Blizzard had an internal one, didn't they). So what's the big deal with the women's tournament all of a sudden? I could understand if the main prize was a code S spot or something, but as it is now, some people are getting way too worked up over this one =p
If I organize an internal tournament in my workplace, I don't think anyone will come screaming that they want to participate too ...
Simply put, the problem is that quite commonly women who enter such leagues, complain they get treated inequally. I have nothing against leagues itself, but I disapprove of the following in the original statement :
To start off, some may be wondering, why a section only for girls? The vision behind the Iron Lady section is to provide a place for female gamers to thrive in a male dominated sport. The goal will be to provide the highest quality tournaments and leagues, so that the top female gamers can finally shine just as much as the top male gamers do with no intimidation.
You don't take away the intimidation of the sad majority of men, by separating yourself from their scene. That's the wrong reasons to make such a league from my perspective.
Edit: GENERAL NOTE: I do not disagree on leagues for women to have them compete. I disagree on the mindset behind leagues if they are made to stop "intimidation". That's a very important difference with a very very fine line in between. You're welcome to make female-only tournaments. Just don't come complaining about inequality or how you're treated. To quote a tweet I got from one of my followers :
By @commanderlovely
@aelonius Women wanna be equal but not be treated equally.
@aelonius Exactly, we deal with it all the time in the fighting game community as well.
@aelonius "Treat us equally!" "Okay, I'll just treat you like you're one of us then" "OMG YOURE SUCH A JERK STOP TREATING ME LIKE THIS"
Realy nice idea, I totaly hope that this will give some female gamers the opportunity to get some attention and to show that they probably are as good as any other progamer.
Also I don't really see the point in this discussion, if you guys dont like the effort other people put into growing esports in every aspect it has to offer then just don't read/watch/talk/think about it. But don't use these threads to talk something down in which other people probably put a lot of thought and effort into!
Keep up the good work pHaRSiDE! Those haters may be pretty "loud" but they are only a minority who just don't seem to have anything constructive to add to esports like you do.
Personally, I don't understand it... If I see a girl at a LAN, I'm not going to harass her or anything; she's just another player. At worst, she might get a second glance because you practically never see a girl at a LAN, but that's pretty much the same reaction anything out-of-the-ordinary would garner.
I think the key point is that everyone wants esports to grow but the perspective on this type of tournament is different. Some view this as willful segregation of the community, which is obviously bad. The other side views this as growing a small demographic into something bigger, which is good. Those 2 are not mutually exclusive though. I've known a few girls that "joined" because of something like this but then never ventured out to actually join the community, preferring to stick to the girls-only club.
The simple (yet nigh-impossible) solution is just to stop caring about gender online. I've actually gotten yelled at when my reaction was along the lines of "so?" to the revelation that someone was a girl in a game where gender absolutely didn't matter at all...
Guys: Treat the girls like people instead of a pair of boobs or inferior or whatever. Your "go back to the kitchen" jokes aren't funny and they just make you look like a tool. Harassing women is counterproductive both to having them join the community and to you getting laid.
Girls: You shouldn't even feel the need to advertise that you're a girl. It's completely irrelevant in this game. I realize there's idiots that drive you away from the scene but there's bad mannered idiots everywhere, regardless of gender. You just get a different type of vitriol than we do...
Until both genders grow up and stop treating the girls like they're special solely for their gender, these kinds of tourneys will be good to help enlarge the community, even if it does generate some separation as well. Overall, it still results in a bigger community...
I don't know why I felt the urge to write that out... Good luck with the tournament!
Can't we all just be happy for this instead of discussing if it's right or wrong? Every thread about female gamers(or exclusive competitions for females) gets the discussion going and with it some really nasty comments. Lets all just be happy for this as it is a step towards good!
You guys are silly. Females need their own league because its such a small demographic therefore the talent pool is lower. This will allow the skilled females to stand out and make a name for themself, AND THEN they can advance into the competition with the 'big boys.' Its also nice to interact with their peers, instead of horny 15 year old boys who freak out when they hear a girl on the interwebz.
How do we get more females to game? Show them that other females are doing it too. How do we show them? With an awesome female league!!
On June 11 2011 02:09 br0fivE wrote: Really wish ESPORTS wasnt going in the direction of every other Official sport. (M/F Only) cause we all know how popular WNBA is....
Goodluck with the league! Show off some mad skillz!
Well most of the women in the WNBA are pretty unattractive to be honest... plus the game moves at a much slower pace than mens Bball which is why most fans watch the mens league.
However, SC2 will run at the same pace regardless of whether a male or a female is at the keyboard. There may be more mistakes depending on who is playing, but mistakes can make for entertaining games too. And I think that these girls stand a pretty good chance of being more attractive than WNBA players!
If there is a girl out there who is even semi-attractive and is better than me (not hard, I'm gold league :/ ) then I'd be interested in watching!
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
1. Females want special treatment. This is (hopefully!) not the case, but you can't blame anyone for thinking it. After all, the trend of "gamer girrrrls" is huge. I'm not saying it applies to you, but it's an image you create of yourself for a lot of people.
2. Females cannot compete with men. In sports that require physical activity, this exists because women do not have the same muscle buildup as men, the same length, the same strength, etc. That's fair. However, clicking a mouse/keyboard has nothing to do with your gender. Neither does your ability to play a video game. Again, it might not be what your goal is, but it's the image you're giving off to the rest of SC2.
3. It's okay to be sexist against the majority. Seriously, imagine if an event came out that said "no women allowed". Not only would there be a huge uproar, it would not get any publicity on TL(and for good goddamn reason), and it would likely fall apart before it even started. Just because you guys are a minority - there's no denying that - doesn't make this okay.
I tried to be as polite as possible in saying what I, and many others, take from this. I do not care what gender anyone is - male or female - it's about who they are as a person. I'd just as soon be a fan of WhiteRa if he was a woman - because WhiteRa is a terrific person with an awesome personality, not a terrific man or guy.
Maybe it is harder for girls online than it is for guys, but you will only make it worse by segregating yourselves. This is not good for e-sports, but what's worse, it's not good for women who play video games. You're only making yourselves a clearer target for harassment.
(I didn't see any mod edits stating we weren't allowed to talk about it, and I realize many people have expressed their viewpoints against it, but it needs to get through to the people organizing this that they are harming the interests of girls who play video games.)
Sc2 is not a game that lends itself to separation very well, consider the massive amounts of debates that take place on this site on a daily basis that deal with the advantage one has by being able to play on the Korean servers. In order to become better, one must play against good, challenging players on a consistent basis, and creating a female-specific tournament would only further hamper the opportunity for female players to have their skills adequately tested against the mainstream metagame of Sc2. The competitive world of Sc2 is already splintered enough.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
It's not about "special treatment" in the discriminatory sense, but rather that a game like Sc2 relies on an interplay between those who are good and those who are bad, and the tendencies of players considered "good" amount to what we call the "metagame". Pitting females against females, which in most cases will amount to less than exemplary players playing against less than exemplary players, will end up with a female-specific metagame that is simply not going to size up. Getting your ass kicked by a better player is essential in terms of advancing in Sc2, and creating an isolated tournament thats based on anything other than skill will only cheat its constituent players from adavancing as fast as everyone else
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There aren't any "tournaments for male gamers" Anyone can play in any tournament. Unless it's invite only or something. Girls don't need their own tournament, it's silly and not logical. Just because it so happens that at the moment there are more men than women that are winning tournaments does not mean we need to make special tournaments just for them to feel better and make them seem like they have competition too. If you want to be a competitive tournament player you need to put in the time and effort in order to do so.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
If you REALLY think that there are no differences between men and women, then I don't know what I could possibly say to you that would explain how wrong you are. Maybe you should go read my prior post like I said, and think before you type next time.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
You are not invited to their fucking tournament. You have nothing to say about whether that is acceptable or not - you shouldn't even be posting in this thread. You're just another self-important angry white guy who sees discrimination against him around every corner, when it's just a figment of your imagination.
And if you REALLY think there aren't differences between men and women, then I don't know what I could possibly say to you that would explain how wrong you are. Maybe you should go read my prior post like I said, and think before you type next time.
There are zero differences between men and women when it comes to poking keys and moving the mouse.
I generally i don't think women and men should be seperated in competetive gaming, i think a female could do just as well as any man could with the same talent and practice.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
When are you and other haters going to learn to actually read and understand what the reason is behind this league. I'm not even going to repeat it again, I am just going to keep on reporting post that keep on trying to create the false division in the sc2 of girls and guys.
The females do compete in those tournaments, but guess how many of them you hear about? None. Like I already said 1000000 times, its about shining a spot light on different people in the scene rather than the same people always winning. It has nothing to do with skill but its the same principle of why people host bronze cups, or platinum cups etc. Those people never beat grandmasters, so by your thinking, they never deserve any spot light ever. This is a broken opinion you have, and if you want to have it, then have it. But don't come to our thread trying to to make it seem like we are horrible people for attempting to bring more diversity to the scene.
You are seriously messed up...Get off your high horse and you might have a better outlook on things like this. It amazes me how many dudes think there is a lack of Men's rights in SC2 gaming.. When you learn to read and understand what has been written time and time again in this thread by me and others, you might change your thoughts.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
If you REALLY think that there are no differences between men and women, then I don't know what I could possibly say to you that would explain how wrong you are. Maybe you should go read my prior post like I said, and think before you type next time.
There is no need to read anything by you. I could deconstruct your entire post, and all it would do is make you scream and shout louder without reading what I said - like you did the first time, and did just now.
Good job being racist about it too, my lord. My post was aimed at the people organizing this tournament - they can take from it what they will. If they want to ignore entirely like you, they are free too. That's not sad for me, that's sad for women who play video games. This is a step in the wrong direction to them seeing equal treatment in video games, and they're choosing to take it themselves.
And please stop bringing up as if I want to participate in this, or any, tournament. I find SC2 extremely enjoyable to watch, but I'm stuck between diamond and platinum and have no interest in becoming better. This has nothing to do with me not being invited. Please, either don't reply again, or first take a long break to calm down.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
You are not invited to their fucking tournament. You have nothing to say about whether that is acceptable or not - you shouldn't even be posting in this thread. You're just another self-important angry white guy who sees discrimination against him around every corner, when it's just a figment of your imagination.
And if you REALLY think there aren't differences between men and women, then I don't know what I could possibly say to you that would explain how wrong you are. Maybe you should go read my prior post like I said, and think before you type next time.
There are zero differences between men and women when it comes to poking keys and moving the mouse.
Nobody is talking about biological differences in play skill. Read my previous post - I'm not going to copy-paste it for you.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
When are you and other haters going to learn to actually read and understand what the reason is behind this league. I'm not even going to repeat it again, I am just going to keep on reporting post that keep on trying to create the false division in the sc2 of girls and guys.
The females do compete in those tournaments, but guess how many of them you hear about? None. Like I already said 1000000 times, its about shining a spot light on different people in the scene rather than the same people always winning. It has nothing to do with skill but its the same principle of why people host bronze cups, or platinum cups etc. Those people never beat grandmasters, so by your thinking, they never deserve any spot light ever. This is a broken opinion you have, and if you want to have it, then have it. But don't come to our thread trying to to make it seem like we are horrible people for attempting to bring more diversity to the scene.
You are seriously messed up...Get off your high horse and you might have a better outlook on things like this.
But why do we need to make false community figures out of people simply because they won tournaments with lower skill levels? People should become popular and respected through actually being skilled players or important members of the community, not winning specialized tournaments created simply to make us appear as a more gender balanced community.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
If you REALLY think that there are no differences between men and women, then I don't know what I could possibly say to you that would explain how wrong you are. Maybe you should go read my prior post like I said, and think before you type next time.
There is no need to read anything by you. I could deconstruct your entire post, and all it would do is make you scream and shout louder without reading what I said - like you did the first time, and did just now.
Good job being racist about it too, my lord. My post was aimed at the people organizing this tournament - they can take from it what they will. If they want to ignore entirely like you, they are free too. That's not sad for me, that's sad for women who play video games. This is a step in the wrong direction to them seeing equal treatment in video games, and they're choosing to take it themselves.
And please stop bringing up as if I want to participate in this, or any, tournament. I find SC2 extremely enjoyable to watch, but I'm stuck between diamond and platinum and have no interest in becoming better. This has nothing to do with me not being invited. Please, either don't reply again, or first take a long break to calm down.
A step in the wrong direction? You think the new girls we bring into SC2 competitive gaming will NEVER play in open non-restrictive cups? What is wrong with you?
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
When are you and other haters going to learn to actually read and understand what the reason is behind this league. I'm not even going to repeat it again, I am just going to keep on reporting post that keep on trying to create the false division in the sc2 of girls and guys.
The females do compete in those tournaments, but guess how many of them you hear about? None. Like I already said 1000000 times, its about shining a spot light on different people in the scene rather than the same people always winning. It has nothing to do with skill but its the same principle of why people host bronze cups, or platinum cups etc. Those people never beat grandmasters, so by your thinking, they never deserve any spot light ever. This is a broken opinion you have, and if you want to have it, then have it. But don't come to our thread trying to to make it seem like we are horrible people for attempting to bring more diversity to the scene.
You are seriously messed up...Get off your high horse and you might have a better outlook on things like this.
But why do we need to make false community figures out of people simply because they won tournaments with lower skill levels? People should become popular and respected through actually being skilled players or important members of the community, not winning specialized tournaments created simply to make us appear as a more gender balanced community.
For 1000000th time, it encourages more female players to compete. Its the same principle behind other restrictive cups. Why can you not see this man lol. Do I need to say it a 1000000 more times?
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
If you REALLY think that there are no differences between men and women, then I don't know what I could possibly say to you that would explain how wrong you are. Maybe you should go read my prior post like I said, and think before you type next time.
There is no need to read anything by you. I could deconstruct your entire post, and all it would do is make you scream and shout louder without reading what I said - like you did the first time, and did just now.
Good job being racist about it too, my lord. My post was aimed at the people organizing this tournament - they can take from it what they will. If they want to ignore entirely like you, they are free too. That's not sad for me, that's sad for women who play video games. This is a step in the wrong direction to them seeing equal treatment in video games, and they're choosing to take it themselves.
And please stop bringing up as if I want to participate in this, or any, tournament. I find SC2 extremely enjoyable to watch, but I'm stuck between diamond and platinum and have no interest in becoming better. This has nothing to do with me not being invited. Please, either don't reply again, or first take a long break to calm down.
The self-importance and arrogance you exhibited in your initial post is being matched and exceeded in the first paragraph of your awful reply here. You're so convinced in the rightness of your own opinions that you can't possibly consider that women might want their own venue to promote female gamer interest in SC2 through different language, role models, websites, etc., than you would use with male gamers. No, it's discrimination against YOU, because YOU are the center of attention. At all times. Even in a thread that you have absolutely no fucking reason to be in.
Why do I post on this site? So many misogynistic, racist, overblown male teenage egos running rampant.
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
When are you and other haters going to learn to actually read and understand what the reason is behind this league. I'm not even going to repeat it again, I am just going to keep on reporting post that keep on trying to create the false division in the sc2 of girls and guys.
The females do compete in those tournaments, but guess how many of them you hear about? None. Like I already said 1000000 times, its about shining a spot light on different people in the scene rather than the same people always winning. It has nothing to do with skill but its the same principle of why people host bronze cups, or platinum cups etc. Those people never beat grandmasters, so by your thinking, they never deserve any spot light ever. This is a broken opinion you have, and if you want to have it, then have it. But don't come to our thread trying to to make it seem like we are horrible people for attempting to bring more diversity to the scene.
You are seriously messed up...Get off your high horse and you might have a better outlook on things like this.
I read your reasoning. I am not a "hater", and it would be terrific if you stopped using words that 4chan puts in your mouth. I am trying to explain to you how negatively this comes across to people.
Not everyone deserves to be in the spotlight. I've certainly never been in it, and I have no one to blame but myself. I could compete in a bronze-platinum tournament, and maybe I'd get to a higher standing, but that doesn't interest me. You know why? Because I don't need to be told I'm a winner when I'm not. I don't need, what is in every possible way you can define it, special treatment. If they're not at the level of grandmasters, then why aren't these platinum cups good enough for them? I don't see you sticking up for the ability for bronze/silver/gold men to "get a chance at the spotlight".
Honestly, half your post is just inflammatory, and I never came here looking to hurdle insults, only to offer perspective. However, I've lost interest in trying to tell you how you're harming the image of girls who play video games at least, from my(and apparently many other guys')perspective. You can pave your own road to hell if you like. I did not come here out of some imaginary hatred for women that you keep seeing in everyone who disagrees with your approach, but there's no talking to you.
Good luck with your tournament. I hope it doesn't lead to further segregation like I think it will, but that is something we'll never know.
And now people are simply making this an emotional argument instead of an actual semi polite discussion. This is why we can't have nice things. Glad to see the esl guy is also an unprofessional child that cannot maintain a mature stance on this subject.
As if I'm not suppose to get frustrated by people continuously spouting the same broken reasoning that we have already explained is not the case here.
The league is about bringing more people to the scene and encouraging more competitive play from a section of gamers who do not typically try to compete at higher levels. The faster everyone can understand this fact, the faster the arguments can stop.
On June 11 2011 04:02 pHaRSiDE wrote: As if I'm not suppose to get frustrated by people continuously spouting the same broken reasoning that we have already explained is not the case here.
The league is about bringing more people to the scene and encouraging more competitive play from a section of gamers who do not typically try to compete at higher levels. The faster everyone can understand this fact, the faster the arguments can stop.
No one is debating what your vision is. No one is doubting your intentions either. They're arguing that you're going to have the opposite effect, causing segregation and fragmentation of the community. That's 2 very different things that it seems people are not differentiating in this argument. Repeating the same thing over and over isn't going to change either side's mind, particularly since the crux of the argument is all based on conjecture on whether or not it'll draw more women in or cause segregation. I summed it up better in my previous post but neither side will find a resolution here...
My personal point of view is "Meh, who cares." I'm going to follow this about as much as I would follow any other random tournament. It's not because I have anything against the ladies or whatever; I've pretty much not watched any Competo or Zotac or Go4SC2 cups either just because there's so much SC2 content available...
I said it in my last post and I'll say it again... Have fun with the tourney. Hope it runs smoothly. You don't need to justify yourselves to anyone for running a tourney. Heck, I ran a tourney with a bunch of friends over the last couple of months and none of you TL forum people were invited either!
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
If you REALLY think that there are no differences between men and women, then I don't know what I could possibly say to you that would explain how wrong you are. Maybe you should go read my prior post like I said, and think before you type next time.
For all of the people saying go re-read the post and the vision... it is clear that the vision of this league is to discriminate and separate women from men in competitive starcraft.
It really is not difficult to read. You being able to understand something that is not written is a different skill and also meaningless in a discussion about the facts.
Here is the "Vision" written exactly as it is posted with emphasis in bold: "The vision behind the Iron Lady section is to provide a place for female gamers to thrive in a male dominated sport. The goal will be to provide the highest quality tournaments and leagues, so that the top female gamers can finally shine just as much as the top male gamers do with no intimidation."
I think you would have a much better reaction in the community if you took more time to write this vision/idea and weren't being so hostile to all of the responses.
I think this a great idea. I hope this will lead to new build orders and strategies. As a male in real world i find having a females perspectives a benefit. Hopefully this translates to SC2. Good luck have fun I look forward to viewing your play styles and timings.
I feel like this league actually just panders to perverts seeking female gamers to idolize and/or stalk. I love the concept of growing a community, but I'm not sure I believe that is the sole purpose of this league.
I think a lot of you lack perspective and are missing the point completely. The female community, not that I speak for every individual, could careless if you (as males), watch the tournament. The tournament is to draw more females into the community in a meaningful way. More participation by groups under represented is good for the SC2 community as a whole.
So the issue, it seems, is the opinion of a vocal few who feel like a female only tournament is counter productive to that end (bringing more people in). This is where I feel those making that argument lack perspective. Look at CS1.6. It had a thriving competitive female community. It had HUGE female specific tournaments. Now, short of an empirical study using regression modeling, neither side can quantify the effect that having female only events had on CS1.6's popularity or longevity. That said, I think that it is "in play" to postulate that it was a benefit to that community. As someone who played CS1.6, is female, and attended LANs competitively -- I feel comfortable saying that it would behoove the SC2 community to reach out to female gamers. Are female tournaments the end all be all? Of course not, but history has shown that they are a piece of the puzzle.
Female-only tournaments are great. If they bring new players and are enjoyable for those participating and viewers as well, it's awesome for the SC2 scene. I don't understand why so many people want to hate on these kinds of tournaments. There are plenty out there with similar restrictions based on age, gender, geographic location, etc. All for this, good job organizers.
When's the first tournament>? Couldnt seem to find anything. I am pretty interested in seeing the top women compete, women think differently from men, I wonder if their strategies would be different too. Go FESPORTS!
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of nerd males and the son of female nerds will be able to sit down in a table of brotherhood. T.T
On June 11 2011 03:20 HoldenR wrote: Not thought through at all.
Regardless of your actual reason having effect(have you actually researched whether more girls become interested in SC2 due to there being female only leagues?), it's about the image this represent. This can be interpreted in the following ways:
No. No, it can't. Let me stop you right there.You are wrong, the rest of your post is a travesty, and if you don't understand why, go back and read my previous post.
I mean, "special treatment?" How can this possibly be interpreted as special treatment? You are not invited. That's it. It is not for you. That is not special treatment. They're not asking for an extra elimination bracket in tournaments with male gamers, they're not asking for an extra worker at the start of the game against non-male players, they're not asking for larger prize pools for female tournament winners - you're simply not invited. That has absolutely nothing to do with 'special treatment' in any intelligible definition of the word.
Just because men are not dominating an event or a venue does not equate to "reverse sexism." There are one, maybe two female-only tournaments out there, and more fucking tournaments than you can shake a stick at for male gamers. The idea that you equate that with discrimination is laughable, and shows that you don't understand the meaning of the word and that you didn't really think about what constitutes discrimination before writing your post.
And I think they can worry about their image on their own - they don't need you to give them advice in that regard.
There are exactly zero tournaments for male gamers. There are tournaments for gamers, and then we have here, tournaments for FEMALE gamers. It is not the fault of people who participate in tournaments that women don't enter them - they are free to.
If you can't see how this is special treatment(hint: it's basically telling women it's okay to be worse, they'll still "compete with male superstars" without having the same quality), you're as blind as a bat. I can sympathize with women that they get singled out online in video games, I really can, but with these kind of tournaments and ideals, they are only promoting the idea that they're different. Which is really, really bad.
I have nothing further to say to someone foaming at the mouth with rage.
If you REALLY think that there are no differences between men and women, then I don't know what I could possibly say to you that would explain how wrong you are. Maybe you should go read my prior post like I said, and think before you type next time.
For all of the people saying go re-read the post and the vision... it is clear that the vision of this league is to discriminate and separate women from men in competitive starcraft.
It really is not difficult to read. You being able to understand something that is not written is a different skill and also meaningless in a discussion about the facts.
Here is the "Vision" written exactly as it is posted with emphasis in bold: "The vision behind the Iron Lady section is to provide a place for female gamers to thrive in a male dominated sport. The goal will be to provide the highest quality tournaments and leagues, so that the top female gamers can finally shine just as much as the top male gamers do with no intimidation."
I think you would have a much better reaction in the community if you took more time to write this vision/idea and weren't being so hostile to all of the responses.
No, the point is not discrimination in any meaningful, intelligible sense of the word. Yes, it does create a separate space for female gamers, but NO, it does not discriminate in any meaningful way. Is there any significant impact on male gamers? Does it restrict their options in any meaningful way? Is it harder, in any noticeable sense for male gamers to find community news and opportunities for competition? No. Does it restrict the options of female gamers in any way? No, it expands them. To call it "discrimination" per se, is a pointless exercise in semantics that misses the entire purpose of female-oriented community venues and events. The impact on male gamers is so laughably small that it makes the outrage coming from other posters (not you in particular) both hilarious and offensive.
I'll stop posting here both out of respect for the mod's warning as well as the fact that I don't want my opinions to be accidentally affiliated with the ESL - I'm not associated with them in any way. I'll end by saying good luck to the organizers, and good luck to the participants.
On June 11 2011 05:45 rawbertson wrote: When's the first tournament>? Couldnt seem to find anything. I am pretty interested in seeing the top women compete, women think differently from men, I wonder if their strategies would be different too. Go FESPORTS!
Yayay female tournaments! Thanks, organizers! You get a lot of shit for this but honestly just...don't read any of it because the rehash will melt your mind -_-...
Personally, this tournament has inspired me to practice more, join this tournament (haven't registered yet though haha), and sign up for the DC LAN that's happening on the same day. If that's not proof that these tournaments encourage females to participate in more competitive gaming events, I don't know what is.
Everyone is preparing for this cup. There are a lot of practice matches going on! I am practicing too! even though, I'm not competing. ( I have to run the show) It is going to be an interesting cup. I already know some awesome players that will participate! Can't wait! :D
Glhf ladies! Definitely tuning in.... I'm glad someone is trying this out. Like iNcontroL says I'd rather somebody try it than sit around and speculate whether it will work or not. gogogo 1a2a3a s t a r t
WOW. Long time no see Danny. What can I say? I think this is great and I hope it's just not a one time thing at it continues to grow. And as always, haters gonna hate, no matter what they try to say.
After reading all the garbage posted in this thread I'd like to ask if its possible to donate via paypal to the prize pool for these tournaments. More money=More interest right? I wouldn't mind donating $10.
TBH when someone makes a tournament they are allowed to place whatever strictures they want. After all, they are the ones organizing it, running it, finding sponsors, and coughing up the dough. Who cares if it is plat only/German only/quadriplegic only whatever. If we can have different leagues for woman's sports there is no reason we can't different leagues for woman's esports. Think of it as an invitational style tournament where only women are invited.
Kudos to you sir and I wish you luck in your endeavor.
On June 11 2011 05:30 Hot_Bid wrote: Female-only tournaments are great. If they bring new players and are enjoyable for those participating and viewers as well, it's awesome for the SC2 scene. I don't understand why so many people want to hate on these kinds of tournaments. There are plenty out there with similar restrictions based on age, gender, geographic location, etc. All for this, good job organizers.
I agree, i do not understand why so many hous have to come into every thread about female tournaments and shit all over it. They might take thier shit with nice language, well thought out arguments and a nice tone, but it is still a shit.
All in all reminds me of this:
Back on topic, good luck with the event! Hope to see some VOD's popping up in the future.
Really hope this turns out to be a hit! I think after a few women only tournies to encourage the female competition we'll see some of them want to try their hand at the existing larger tournies which would be awesome. Get a known caster like Day9, Artosis, etc to cast the finals and maybe even semis and I think you'll get a damn nice turn out. I know I'll watch!
On June 11 2011 23:29 Phyre wrote: Really hope this turns out to be a hit! I think after a few women only tournies to encourage the female competition we'll see some of them want to try their hand at the existing larger tournies which would be awesome. Get a known caster like Day9, Artosis, etc to cast the finals and maybe even semis and I think you'll get a damn nice turn out. I know I'll watch!
Yeah day9 should cast it, I could watch anything day9 cast .... even paint drying :p
On June 10 2011 06:12 Mikey wrote: Kind of stupid if you ask me. No offense to female gamers, but why should they get there own tournaments that exclude male players? Do tournaments exclude women from them? No. I think this is just meant to make female players stand out, but should they stand out if they aren't achieving results in normal tournaments?
Of course, they should stand out! The current ratio of female sc2-gamers compared to the male sc2-gamers is straight up ridiculous. There are e.g. 3 or 4 female streamers on TL.net compared to what... a hundred male streamers? imo tournaments like these are great, just because of promoting the female community. Sure, there are no "men-only" tournaments but if by opening a female tournament the game attracts more women/girls - by all means: do it! Perhaps there is a "Idraesse" out there who just doesn't know it, yet.
Yeah this is the argument that everyone makes, at this sort off what people want to belive but im not really convinced that it is so.
I mean if you look at chess, which is to some extent similiare to SC2 and has been a mixed sport between females and males for a very long time. The best female chess player (cant remember her name but she´s from Hungary) of all times was as highest ranked number 8 in the world. Making here extremly skilled of course but still.
Also I think the fact that through the entire history of epsort there has´nt been one female dominating a big game (as far as I know at least) is a strong argument.
People want there to be no difference but that doesnt make it so.
On June 10 2011 12:22 NaviListen wrote: Oh god the discussion going on in this thread is hilarious. None of you have even come close to the reason why there aren't any prominent women in Starcraft professional gaming.
It's because we make up .002% of the SC2 community.
Out of the tens of thousands of gamers on Reddit and Teamliquid, our Facebook group Girls of SC2 is made up of merely 70-100 at best. That number might grow or might not grow in the near future yet even if it grew to 200 or 300 we aren't even .01% of the community. And even out of 100, only a fraction of us play competitively. Try to name as many female gamers that are competing as you can. I bet you could count us on your hands, you wouldn't even have to use your toes.
So enough with the "girls can't compete with guys on equal terms" nonsense. The girls that are in the community can compete. You can't expect there to instantly be a "Tossgirl" for SC2 just because it's 2011 and it's a completely new game. These tournaments geared toward women are to get more women involved. It's not separation based on skill like bronze/silver tournaments are. Support these events and us, or continue to sit there mindlessly bickering about how women can't play video games, ignoring the obvious truth in front of you.
The only reason there are female only sports is because men are physically superior at the highest levels. This is not the case in a video game. If females practiced and trained as much as a male I don't see how they would not be able to compete. I feel like this is putting females back 40 years. If you are going to compete then compete. Do it on the level that you play and stop getting special treatment because you are a female. Also, unless you are at a live event no one even knows you are not a male. And unless you are in the top .01% of people who play SC2 then you wont be at live events playing anyways.
I don't see why anybody should object to this sort of thing -- it's a free world. Want to run a tournament only for lefties, or for redheads? Go right ahead; if it's a good show then people will tune in on stream and enjoy it.
I see no way that this is a bad thing. The absolute worst thing that can happen is that the tournament is crap and people ignore it, but hopefully we shall see some awesome play from some players nobody has ever heard of, and it'll give some unknown folks the recognition they need to compete in open (mixed-sex) tournaments.
I am slightly interested in this. I am a female already doing my own tournaments and working with Hyper Crew on events. Not sure I want to segregate myself to female only though
I dont think there should be a "women's" division and a "men's" division. Make it equal. If you're good enough you're good enough -- gender should be a non-issue for sc2. TossGirl would still rofflestomp 90% (BS statistic/expression, hold your flame) of male players.
Hey! I'd like to apply but there seems to be a problem with my account. I already created an account for a regular tournament a while back; when I tried to make a new one, it said I needed to use my old account since my ID was already in use. When I tried to access my old account, it didn't work as well. Any help on this? Thanks!
It's good to extend the community in every ways possible, but I feel if you're going to put up prizes yet exclude almost every reader then you shouldn't get publicity, especially not in the sponsored threads section. Perhaps making a female subsite for TL, just like it is in ESL would serve to ease things a bit.
Think: Girls could engage in conversation without having to deal with other forumers who are 99,998% male, and most stand clueless as why there must be separate leagues, not to mention the debates and flames etc.
The way it is now, the female scene represents an extremely small minority that's getting unproportionately great (unwanted?) attention. Tournaments and announcements pop up from time to time which don't concern 99% of the readers. This is just like if I hosted a LAN tournament in a small town and posted it on TL. It would technically waste space. However, if I made my own community site, or thread here on the forums, and posted it there, it would reach the relevant people and only those.
Ask for your own subsite much like it is in ESL, paint TL's blue skin pink and there you go! I'm sure it would have plenty of followers still, but it wouldn't cause an uproar each time you hosted a female only tournament. And it would also help your community grow.
The question is: do you only want the attention of guys, or do you really want make female SC2 happen?
Isn't intimidation a part of sports (Including eSports)? If you don't have the will or capability to compete under intimidation or scrutiny, then are you really competing at all?
Why not have every single tournament be entirely open? Why have bronze only tournaments? Why not just let GM players smash the bronze league players? In fact lets do away with skill leagues altogether everyone should play a giant pool where pros ladder vs first timers, I mean that would be awesome wouldn't it?
Iron Lady gives the females of SC2 a place to shine! Why can't it be left at that?
On June 10 2011 06:05 jenzebubble wrote: Western gender roles dictate that masculinity be expressed through competition. Competition, then, becomes the domain of men. Women who compete in sport must then be "father-didn't-love-me-enough" cases or "bull dykes" for the want for competition is not a quality seen as feminine. Men separate themselves from their peers through competition, women by cultivating and maintaining relationships. Video games have been, for the most part, designed by men for boys and men. If the goal is to grow the StarCraft 2 scene (read as: bigger market, more money, larger talent pool, mainstream exposure) beyond the typical demographic (teenaged/20 something males) then efforts must be made to reach out to those groups of people. Things like IronLady do just that.
lawl bulldykes :D for the record, my father didn't love me, muahaha, psychology!
I can just picutre the epic games and the amazingly hilarious chat! I can't wait for this production to get underway. I hope the sc2 community will appreciate this as much as I am right now!
Plus all Girls love Fame so this tourney is gonna be fierce!
On June 10 2011 06:05 jenzebubble wrote: Western gender roles dictate that masculinity be expressed through competition. Competition, then, becomes the domain of men. Women who compete in sport must then be "father-didn't-love-me-enough" cases or "bull dykes" for the want for competition is not a quality seen as feminine. Men separate themselves from their peers through competition, women by cultivating and maintaining relationships. Video games have been, for the most part, designed by men for boys and men. If the goal is to grow the StarCraft 2 scene (read as: bigger market, more money, larger talent pool, mainstream exposure) beyond the typical demographic (teenaged/20 something males) then efforts must be made to reach out to those groups of people. Things like IronLady do just that.
lawl bulldykes :D for the record, my father didn't love me, muahaha, psychology!
When I saw this, I couldn't stop laughing! What are the chances :D
I totally agree with this. I have one of the best arguments that I can think of:
I hope they play the game TOTALLY different. I love to watch Sheth, Idra, Incontrol etc.. play, but in the end it's still the same type of gameplay. I'd be super interested to see how the female mind plays the game. (not being sexist, just pointing out that women think and react differently to stimuli if it was given to both male and female).
Cheers, I understand this is in no way separating the genders but just encouraging more women to join in by having an initial starting point to branch out from. A lot of sports clubs do this and the women that start that way go on to compete in other mixed-gender competitions.
Good luck in the tourny and if there are casted vods I would love to see some links to them later to check it out!
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZF5g5.jpg)
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