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Seriously, how is Solar's zvz and zvt right now? He looks so on point.
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On July 25 2025 05:52 dedede wrote:
Seriously, how is Solar's zvz and zvt right now? He looks so on point.
It's really good.
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On July 25 2025 05:11 Poopi wrote:
I mean Protoss is a bit overtuned in PvT atm
I don't know if I agree with that.
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Clem has been consistently getting the better of MaxPax recently. It's perhaps a surprise that he lost to Classic by this margin. However, considering Classic's recent form, is it really?
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On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it. You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of. I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely. For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players. On EWC: Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series... Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament. Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead. Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells. Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
Prize money is just a really bad metric overall for determining how good a player is, decent to find out who won more big tournaments, but thats about it.
Just use adjusted aligulac ratings vs race median rating in the top10 or something of that sort.
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On July 25 2025 07:26 FataLe wrote:
Clem has been consistently getting the better of MaxPax recently. It's perhaps a surprise that he lost to Classic by this margin. However, considering Classic's recent form, is it really?
Online vs offline is also a difference, and the stakes. The old narrative that Clem wasn't great in offline events has gone away (for good reason) since he won a Dreamhack Masters and EWC 2024, but I still don't think that Clem is an amazing tournament player - he is just so outrageously good that sometimes it doesn't matter. Clem's very consistent, but I don't expect him to level up for an offline tournament.
All this to say, I wouldn't be surprised if Clem bops Classic the next few times they meet in Wardi TV Mondays or whatever. I think Classic's okay with that!
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On July 25 2025 07:47 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 07:26 FataLe wrote:
Clem has been consistently getting the better of MaxPax recently. It's perhaps a surprise that he lost to Classic by this margin. However, considering Classic's recent form, is it really? Online vs offline is also a difference, and the stakes. The old narrative that Clem wasn't great in offline events has gone away (for good reason) since he won a Dreamhack Masters and EWC 2024, but I still don't think that Clem is an amazing tournament player - he is just so outrageously good that sometimes it doesn't matter. Clem's very consistent, but I don't expect him to level up for an offline tournament. All this to say, I wouldn't be surprised if Clem bops Classic the next few times they meet in Wardi TV Mondays or whatever. I think Classic's okay with that!
Totally agree. Definitely a big difference when this is THE moment to perform at your best. I'm sure Classic would be haha.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On July 25 2025 04:38 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 04:32 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 04:28 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 03:45 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 03:33 WombaT wrote:
Terrans and balance whining, name a more iconic combination… protoss apologists and 25,211 TL.net posts + zero ladder games played since 2011?  LOL hear that WombaT? You're a Protoss apologist now. That's rich. Guess this one isn't aware of how many times you've cracked the whip on the Protoss who were balance whining over the last 4-5 years. I swear by Almighty God that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I have witnessed the WombaT, in the flesh, pint in hand, laughing his ass off about how stupid Khaydarin Amulet was in WoL. now we have the exact same shit patched back into the game and apparently it's ok  It's not the same thing, that's not helping your argument. If you want to complain about Nexus Recharge there's plenty you can say about it without saying that it's the same thing as Khaydarian Amulet. That kind of hyperbole just makes people stop taking what you say seriously. you're right of course. bad comparison! amulet is nowhere near as dumb as Energy Overcharge. Amulet was only 1 insta-storm. energy overcharge is 2 insta-storms!
Khaydarin Amulet was manly as fuck at least. Stupid, but manly.
I quite like the bio/templar dance of death, but it’s one of those that gets messier with scale, and absolutely brutal when the army comps get filled out.
I think energy overcharge is looking overtuned, in both PvT and PvZ. I do, however like the general idea over battery overcharge.
We do have to consider what it’s replacing, and why that exists too. Toss has long been the only faction that frequently needs static defence, or gimmicky abilities to hold pushes despite having their whole army at home.
We’re perhaps not seeing or speaking about the negative impacts of that removal, because Toss are making hay with these heavy Templar styles, but they are there, and would be may more apparent if they get over-nerfed.
So I’d generally be in favour of a recalibration, it’s really just a matter of where the sweet spot is and how to get there.
The viability of reliably early stormy boy openers, halluc gathering info, I think are fine, just they’re currently, well, too much. It’s less the availability of some juicy storms, it’s storms for days. It’s seemingly a permanent hallucinated phoenix dandering around the place.
I love my risk/reward mechanics, as anyone who’s ever read my many, many ‘gateways should be better than warpgates’ rants that usually segue into rants about Warpgate gimping Protoss can attest. But
Why not nerf a unit that is overcharged in some way? Two possibilities could be (just spitballing), something like:
1. A unit that is overcharged has a debuff applied that causes it to lose, not gain energy for a period.
2. Alternatively a unit has a debuff applied that just causes it not to regenerate energy for a period. This could be a timer from when it’s recharged initially, or it could be from when it first expends mana.
I think this potentially keeps it situationally very powerful, but weakness it as a catch-all solution.
You want to recharge a Sentry to do some scouting, you can choose to do that, but you may not have that Guardian Shield at a critical moment.
You can overcharge a bunch of temps to hold a push, but you might not be able to immediately counter-attack with your debuffed Temps.
If you want to overcharge an Oracle or two to hunt some pesky workers, you can overcharge its pulsar beam and bring some pain. But maybe you aren’t quite as free to spam stasis traps around, or have as much for defensive holds.
As I said, very early spitballing, in general I like potent mechanics, but in an RTS game I like them to have some kinda downside ideally. I don’t think the downside of expending Nexus energy is a particularly big one. If Chrono scaled better, then we’re really talking trade offs but I don’t think we’re going to ever see my proposed Chrono buffs :p
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On July 25 2025 08:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 04:38 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 04:32 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 04:28 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 03:45 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 03:33 WombaT wrote:
Terrans and balance whining, name a more iconic combination… protoss apologists and 25,211 TL.net posts + zero ladder games played since 2011? LOL hear that WombaT? You're a Protoss apologist now. That's rich. Guess this one isn't aware of how many times you've cracked the whip on the Protoss who were balance whining over the last 4-5 years. I swear by Almighty God that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I have witnessed the WombaT, in the flesh, pint in hand, laughing his ass off about how stupid Khaydarin Amulet was in WoL. now we have the exact same shit patched back into the game and apparently it's ok It's not the same thing, that's not helping your argument. If you want to complain about Nexus Recharge there's plenty you can say about it without saying that it's the same thing as Khaydarian Amulet. That kind of hyperbole just makes people stop taking what you say seriously. you're right of course. bad comparison! amulet is nowhere near as dumb as Energy Overcharge. Amulet was only 1 insta-storm. energy overcharge is 2 insta-storms! Khaydarin Amulet was manly as fuck at least. Stupid, but manly. I quite like the bio/templar dance of death, but it’s one of those that gets messier with scale, and absolutely brutal when the army comps get filled out. I think energy overcharge is looking overtuned, in both PvT and PvZ. I do, however like the general idea over battery overcharge. We do have to consider what it’s replacing, and why that exists too. Toss has long been the only faction that frequently needs static defence, or gimmicky abilities to hold pushes despite having their whole army at home. We’re perhaps not seeing or speaking about the negative impacts of that removal, because Toss are making hay with these heavy Templar styles, but they are there, and would be may more apparent if they get over-nerfed. So I’d generally be in favour of a recalibration, it’s really just a matter of where the sweet spot is and how to get there. The viability of reliably early stormy boy openers, halluc gathering info, I think are fine, just they’re currently, well, too much. It’s less the availability of some juicy storms, it’s storms for days. It’s seemingly a permanent hallucinated phoenix dandering around the place. I love my risk/reward mechanics, as anyone who’s ever read my many, many ‘gateways should be better than warpgates’ rants that usually segue into rants about Warpgate gimping Protoss can attest. But Why not nerf a unit that is overcharged in some way? Two possibilities could be (just spitballing), something like: 1. A unit that is overcharged has a debuff applied that causes it to lose, not gain energy for a period. 2. Alternatively a unit has a debuff applied that just causes it not to regenerate energy for a period. This could be a timer from when it’s recharged initially, or it could be from when it first expends mana. I think this potentially keeps it situationally very powerful, but weakness it as a catch-all solution. You want to recharge a Sentry to do some scouting, you can choose to do that, but you may not have that Guardian Shield at a critical moment. You can overcharge a bunch of temps to hold a push, but you might not be able to immediately counter-attack with your debuffed Temps. If you want to overcharge an Oracle or two to hunt some pesky workers, you can overcharge its pulsar beam and bring some pain. But maybe you aren’t quite as free to spam stasis traps around, or have as much for defensive holds. As I said, very early spitballing, in general I like potent mechanics, but in an RTS game I like them to have some kinda downside ideally. I don’t think the downside of expending Nexus energy is a particularly big one. If Chrono scaled better, then we’re really talking trade offs but I don’t think we’re going to ever see my proposed Chrono buffs :p
I think something simple like reducing energy recharge to +75 energy could be enough. Over the course of a longer game that would be fewer storms, and it deals with the issue of warped in HT immediately getting 2 storms. Maybe pairing it up with increasing the energy cost of hallucinated phoenix so scouting vT isn't quite as free?
Considering how badly Toss has done in many metas, I don't think we should go overboard with nerfs.
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On July 25 2025 07:47 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 07:26 FataLe wrote:
Clem has been consistently getting the better of MaxPax recently. It's perhaps a surprise that he lost to Classic by this margin. However, considering Classic's recent form, is it really? Online vs offline is also a difference, and the stakes. The old narrative that Clem wasn't great in offline events has gone away (for good reason) since he won a Dreamhack Masters and EWC 2024, but I still don't think that Clem is an amazing tournament player - he is just so outrageously good that sometimes it doesn't matter. Clem's very consistent, but I don't expect him to level up for an offline tournament. All this to say, I wouldn't be surprised if Clem bops Classic the next few times they meet in Wardi TV Mondays or whatever.
I would be. Classic has been dominating Clem every time they met recently.
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On July 25 2025 08:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 04:38 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 04:32 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 04:28 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 03:45 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 03:33 WombaT wrote:
Terrans and balance whining, name a more iconic combination… protoss apologists and 25,211 TL.net posts + zero ladder games played since 2011? LOL hear that WombaT? You're a Protoss apologist now. That's rich. Guess this one isn't aware of how many times you've cracked the whip on the Protoss who were balance whining over the last 4-5 years. I swear by Almighty God that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I have witnessed the WombaT, in the flesh, pint in hand, laughing his ass off about how stupid Khaydarin Amulet was in WoL. now we have the exact same shit patched back into the game and apparently it's ok It's not the same thing, that's not helping your argument. If you want to complain about Nexus Recharge there's plenty you can say about it without saying that it's the same thing as Khaydarian Amulet. That kind of hyperbole just makes people stop taking what you say seriously. you're right of course. bad comparison! amulet is nowhere near as dumb as Energy Overcharge. Amulet was only 1 insta-storm. energy overcharge is 2 insta-storms! Khaydarin Amulet was manly as fuck at least. Stupid, but manly. I quite like the bio/templar dance of death, but it’s one of those that gets messier with scale, and absolutely brutal when the army comps get filled out. I think energy overcharge is looking overtuned, in both PvT and PvZ. I do, however like the general idea over battery overcharge. We do have to consider what it’s replacing, and why that exists too. Toss has long been the only faction that frequently needs static defence, or gimmicky abilities to hold pushes despite having their whole army at home. We’re perhaps not seeing or speaking about the negative impacts of that removal, because Toss are making hay with these heavy Templar styles, but they are there, and would be may more apparent if they get over-nerfed. So I’d generally be in favour of a recalibration, it’s really just a matter of where the sweet spot is and how to get there. The viability of reliably early stormy boy openers, halluc gathering info, I think are fine, just they’re currently, well, too much. It’s less the availability of some juicy storms, it’s storms for days. It’s seemingly a permanent hallucinated phoenix dandering around the place. I love my risk/reward mechanics, as anyone who’s ever read my many, many ‘gateways should be better than warpgates’ rants that usually segue into rants about Warpgate gimping Protoss can attest. But Why not nerf a unit that is overcharged in some way? Two possibilities could be (just spitballing), something like: 1. A unit that is overcharged has a debuff applied that causes it to lose, not gain energy for a period. 2. Alternatively a unit has a debuff applied that just causes it not to regenerate energy for a period. This could be a timer from when it’s recharged initially, or it could be from when it first expends mana. I think this potentially keeps it situationally very powerful, but weakness it as a catch-all solution. You want to recharge a Sentry to do some scouting, you can choose to do that, but you may not have that Guardian Shield at a critical moment. You can overcharge a bunch of temps to hold a push, but you might not be able to immediately counter-attack with your debuffed Temps. If you want to overcharge an Oracle or two to hunt some pesky workers, you can overcharge its pulsar beam and bring some pain. But maybe you aren’t quite as free to spam stasis traps around, or have as much for defensive holds. As I said, very early spitballing, in general I like potent mechanics, but in an RTS game I like them to have some kinda downside ideally. I don’t think the downside of expending Nexus energy is a particularly big one. If Chrono scaled better, then we’re really talking trade offs but I don’t think we’re going to ever see my proposed Chrono buffs :p
Thing is, if Energy Recharge works in concept but is just too powerful currently there are knobs we can turn to tune it. We can put a CD on it, we could increase the amount it costs the Nexus to do it, we could lock it behind a tech.
I also like the concept of giving Protoss additional utility options at the expense of Nexus energy. It perfectly fits in line with the powerful abilities that the Queen and Orbital Command have.
But introducing it 14 years into the game's lifespan was gonna be a very big longshot to get right on the first try. It's reasonable to assume that the idea is a hit it just needs tuning, just like any new ability would if it was introduced at this stage of the game.
We could also go the other route, and undo some of the nerfs that Terran and Zerg have received in order to help make Protoss better.
Like I said. There's knobs we can turn.
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Myt hot take is that Solar is the favorite to win it all just slightly behind Serral.
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On July 25 2025 07:26 FataLe wrote:
Clem has been consistently getting the better of MaxPax recently. It's perhaps a surprise that he lost to Classic by this margin. However, considering Classic's recent form, is it really?
Maxpax is overrated
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On July 25 2025 05:49 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it. You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of. I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely. For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players. On EWC: Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series... Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament. Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead. Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells. Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow. If you want to use any stats to convince people that 2019 is not zerg-op patch it's a dead end. Everyone who watched the games know and remember what happened. 5 zergs in ro8, 3 zergs in ro4. Saying 2018/2019 is terran-favored patch is hilarious. Maru was the last terran in GSL 2018 also Blizzcon WCS 2019.
It is interesting how a couple of people recently told me that some statistics can't be true because of their subjective feelings.
You can't even imagine a world where there have been a couple of really good Zerg players that simply by luck or chance made it to the Ro8 or Ro4, despite the odds being around 50%. It is fine, if you are not able to rationalize this fact because "you watched and remember", but that is not how statistics work.
If you think a 52 to 48% win percentage for Zerg means that the race is OP, fine by me... you do you.
On July 25 2025 07:44 LostUsername100 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it. You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of. I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely. For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players. On EWC: Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series... Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament. Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead. Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells. Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow. Prize money is just a really bad metric overall for determining how good a player is, decent to find out who won more big tournaments, but thats about it. Just use adjusted aligulac ratings vs race median rating in the top10 or something of that sort.
I know. I've been trying to explain this to ejozl because of his money based GOAT rating.
I used map statistics.
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France12902 Posts
On July 25 2025 15:18 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 05:49 dedede wrote:On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it. You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of. I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely. For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players. On EWC: Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series... Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament. Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead. Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells. Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow. If you want to use any stats to convince people that 2019 is not zerg-op patch it's a dead end. Everyone who watched the games know and remember what happened. 5 zergs in ro8, 3 zergs in ro4. Saying 2018/2019 is terran-favored patch is hilarious. Maru was the last terran in GSL 2018 also Blizzcon WCS 2019. It is interesting how a couple of people recently told me that some statistics can't be true because of their subjective feelings. You can't even imagine a world where there have been a couple of really good Zerg players that simply by luck or chance made it to the Ro8 or Ro4, despite the odds being around 50%. It is fine, if you are not able to rationalize this fact because "you watched and remember", but that is not how statistics work. If you think a 52 to 48% win percentage for Zerg means that the race is OP, fine by me... you do you. Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 07:44 LostUsername100 wrote:On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it. You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of. I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely. For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players. On EWC: Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series... Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament. Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead. Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells. Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow. Prize money is just a really bad metric overall for determining how good a player is, decent to find out who won more big tournaments, but thats about it. Just use adjusted aligulac ratings vs race median rating in the top10 or something of that sort. I know. I've been trying to explain this to ejozl because of his money based GOAT rating. I used map statistics.
Smart way to discredit your goat ranking of rankings furthermore with that take 
Zerg 2019 was something else
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On July 22 2025 11:23 Waxangel wrote:
Tuesday, Jul 22 10:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
Wednesday, Jul 23 10:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
Thursday, Jul 24 10:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
Thursday, Jul 24 11:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
Is it me or is there type in dates in OP? Did not notice it before, so maybe there was some ninja edit?
EDIT: Fixed now 
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On July 25 2025 04:38 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 04:32 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 04:28 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 03:45 SHODAN wrote:On July 25 2025 03:33 WombaT wrote:
Terrans and balance whining, name a more iconic combination… protoss apologists and 25,211 TL.net posts + zero ladder games played since 2011? LOL hear that WombaT? You're a Protoss apologist now. That's rich. Guess this one isn't aware of how many times you've cracked the whip on the Protoss who were balance whining over the last 4-5 years. I swear by Almighty God that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I have witnessed the WombaT, in the flesh, pint in hand, laughing his ass off about how stupid Khaydarin Amulet was in WoL. now we have the exact same shit patched back into the game and apparently it's ok It's not the same thing, that's not helping your argument. If you want to complain about Nexus Recharge there's plenty you can say about it without saying that it's the same thing as Khaydarian Amulet. That kind of hyperbole just makes people stop taking what you say seriously. you're right of course. bad comparison! amulet is nowhere near as dumb as Energy Overcharge. Amulet was only 1 insta-storm. energy overcharge is 2 insta-storms!
Khaydarian Amulet was infinite instant storms anywhere on the map, as long as you had resources to warp in more High Templar. In late game situations with both players banking resources, this was highly problematic.
Energy Overcharge is two instant storms close to a Nexus, and then you have to wait for the cooldown.
They're not the same.
EDIT:
I was really surprised that Clem wasn't able to get past Classic.
I thought he'd be able to leverage his multi-tasking to find chinks in the armour, but that didn't end up being the case.
This is the same Clem that once lost a macro game to the ultra-defensive KingCobra though, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised. The current patch definitely favours Protoss players who want to play defensively.
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On July 25 2025 15:18 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 05:49 dedede wrote:On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it. You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of. I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely. For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players. On EWC: Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series... Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament. Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead. Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells. Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow. If you want to use any stats to convince people that 2019 is not zerg-op patch it's a dead end. Everyone who watched the games know and remember what happened. 5 zergs in ro8, 3 zergs in ro4. Saying 2018/2019 is terran-favored patch is hilarious. Maru was the last terran in GSL 2018 also Blizzcon WCS 2019. It is interesting how a couple of people recently told me that some statistics can't be true because of their subjective feelings. You can't even imagine a world where there have been a couple of really good Zerg players that simply by luck or chance made it to the Ro8 or Ro4, despite the odds being around 50%. It is fine, if you are not able to rationalize this fact because "you watched and remember", but that is not how statistics work. If you think a 52 to 48% win percentage for Zerg means that the race is OP, fine by me... you do you. Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 07:44 LostUsername100 wrote:On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it. You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of. I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely. For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players. On EWC: Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series... Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament. Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead. Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells. Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow. Prize money is just a really bad metric overall for determining how good a player is, decent to find out who won more big tournaments, but thats about it. Just use adjusted aligulac ratings vs race median rating in the top10 or something of that sort. I know. I've been trying to explain this to ejozl because of his money based GOAT rating. I used map statistics.
I'm just telling you if you try to say Zerg 2019 is not OP with your "statistics" then good luck you really picked the wrong year lol.
Besides statistics is not about collecting and calculating data. Statistics 101: Statistics is not mathematics and Statistics is not meaningful without context. I’m pretty sure I have a stronger academic background in statistics, no offense.
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hmm, for some reason i am suprised we are talking about balance here ^^
If I ask my brainz it tells me this obviously is a serral title in the making; obviously.
If I listen to my gutz - which I get along with waaay better - this feels like a Solar title in the making; even a Cure title doesn't feel absolutely impossible.
Classic is my favorite player and I would be very happy to see him win it all. Though very weirdly I think I would be the least happy if he'd win - and I am not riding the toss imba train -
Well I just came up with a reason why that is: I think it's the most probable case that one of the 4 players underperforms.
Anyway. Think we are in for some treats today; not only but especially ZvZ nail biter finals
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On July 25 2025 02:56 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:54 tigera6 wrote:On July 25 2025 02:47 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 02:44 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta. Some 21 year old upstart Terran with Clem-like speed will again figure out that having a diverse unit composition split into many groups being dropped all over rather than having a stormable, stimmed MMM clump is the way. And of course, nothing wrong with mixing in some proxy rax all-ins to keep Toss players honest in their openings. Thats like saying Zerg/Protoss should learn how to split to avoid Widow Mines and EMP, instead those were nerfed. And good luck playing proxy all-in when Protoss does Probe scout and can follow with another Hallucination scout. Thats Just Not a good comparison.
So you think its WAY easier for Terran to dodge Storm than for Zerg/Protoss to dodge Mines/EMP?
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EPT
