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Some ridiculously awesome games so far, with some absolutely bonkers, all-time comebacks/holds. Still find it a little unsatisfying due to the current game state 😬.
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On July 25 2025 02:54 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:47 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 02:44 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta. Some 21 year old upstart Terran with Clem-like speed will again figure out that having a diverse unit composition split into many groups being dropped all over rather than having a stormable, stimmed MMM clump is the way. And of course, nothing wrong with mixing in some proxy rax all-ins to keep Toss players honest in their openings. Thats like saying Zerg/Protoss should learn how to split to avoid Widow Mines and EMP, instead those were nerfed. And good luck playing proxy all-in when Protoss does Probe scout and can follow with another Hallucination scout.
Thats Just Not a good comparison.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
Feel like Clem needs to cheese more in TvP. He basically never does it because he's mechanically so clean but it gives too much of a free ride to stronger opponents in how they react to his midgame phase.
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On July 25 2025 02:03 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:01 onPHYRE wrote:On July 25 2025 01:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:44 Promised_pain wrote:On July 25 2025 01:30 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2025 01:29 Promised_pain wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Facts. I think only Clem could take out Serral right now. But even if he manages to snatch a second world title the koreaboos are still gonna draw out the "but, but, but... GSL!" card. Serral never played and never will play in GSL, which is understandable since it would be a netloss considering the peanut price pool. On the other hand, Maru's had his chances for at least eight years (or however long the world title has been up for grabs), yet has never delivered. So Serral never having played in the GSL should be rated higher than Maru reaching 2 finals and 4 ro4s in world championships? If we reversed the roles and let Serral play in the GSL for eight years (like Maru has had his chances for world title) I would be surprised if he didn't win it at least once considering how he has been pretty much invincible against Koreans for years now So you're basing everything on a fantasy what if that you have zero evidence of. That's a compelling argument. No evidence? You don’t think there is evidence Serral would absolutely dominate a few of those GSLs? How about winning multiple world titles and being the best player in the world in both the eye test and Aligulac. Saying it’s different and the preparation makes it so, the game is fundamentally the same and that’s a terrible argument. Everyone always preps for Serral and there are plenty of tournaments he won where the players had weeks if not months to prepare for him and failing badly. I’ve read some ridiculous things on here but this is a terrible take. Side note - my Serral 5:3 Classic finals prediction looking good. if Serral played a lot of GSL, I think he almost certainly would have won several. But at the end of the day, in a GOAT conversation, we can only compare their actual achievements, not what might have happened. (FWIW I still think Serral is the goat. We just can't give him credit for GSL's he could/would have won if he'd participated. )
Exactly. If you think Serral is the GOAT based on his actual achievements then that's your argument, stand behind it and defend it. The fact he hasn't won any GSL Code S tournaments is a valid complaint and is usually only ever brought up as a counter to the fact that Maru has never won a World Championship.
You're not going to get anywhere playing make believe and pretending that Serral could have won a bunch of tournaments he's never played in. That just makes you sound insecure and not really believing of your own guy.
Serral has a good enough argument for being the GOAT without his fans trying to gaslight people into believing that he won GSL Code S games he never played in, or that he won during a Terran favored meta (ROFL) in 2018-2019.
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On July 25 2025 02:55 darklycid wrote:
I mean Storm is very strong but i also feel Like terrans are Just ramming their head against the Wall until it Breaks rn. Like protoss are going 4gas Storm, which is quite the Gas Investment. That should be abusable.
Imo terrans Just didnt find a good solution yet (the heavy Storm Meta isnt that old yet). Case in Point Like 4-5 months ago (and even now) every zerg was raving about zvp being unplayable and Look at it now.
Its a different dynamics, Zerg doesnt want to play against Skytoss so they try different way to avoid that by going with more all-in and force the Protoss to play more cautious and allow Zerg to play with macro more.
In TvP there is almost no change for Terran to all-in in mid-game, and everything they try to do will be scouted by the Protoss. Storm isnt the only problem but Energy Recharge make everything better for Protoss.
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On July 25 2025 02:44 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta.
Hmm I think energy overcharge isn't really the main reason Terran is struggling. Sure it buffs the initial storm timing where storm is limited, but in lategame good toss players had backup High templars anyway all over.
Having 3 supply Ghosts with nerfed emp radius on the other hand makes lategame brutal with no counter-nerfs to Protoss
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So much whine about storms, it's just a Classic diff.
If storm was a free win ticket we wouldn't have this race breakdown: + Show Spoiler +
Nobody has late game control or decision making of Serral Classic and Maru for each of their races, and the gap is large.
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Clem just played like garbage, honestly he might as well play Protoss vs Protoss because his last 3 TvP series have been bad. His crazy APM gave an advantage over the right opponents in the last patch, but in this patch you have to hit timings against Protoss players, and you either man up and do it or you lose (and probably lose because PvT in pro level right now is like 80% favored for Toss)
Classic didn't even have to try and didn't play particularly well. In two of the games Classic basically gave him a free win, losing 10 probes on 2 bases to a basic cyclone marine drop, and had a Robo + obs and still lost like 20 probes to banshees. Even a Diamond NA Toss would've pulled the probes vs a Cyclone drop. As soon as Clem killed all those probes and saved his banshees in game 3, it should've been an immediate SCV pulls joining the banshees. + Show Spoiler +
It seems like only Maru seems to mildly understand the state of Terran vs Protoss. The matchup has COMPLETELY CHANGED because of Energy Recharge being imbalanced. It needs to be removed from the game entirely. It gives a high templar over a minute of energy, so the timings need to be over a full minute earlier. If you go banshee with cloak you can slow down storm a bit or reduce the zealot count a bit. If the get storms out, bring only a handful of SCVs, if they go charge/colossus just bring as many as you can. You aren't winning late game unless the Protoss makes a silly mistake.
Late game TvP isn't even debatable, it favors Protoss entirely. The longer the game goes, the more army a Protoss can warp in during the middle of each fight. The easier they can defend drops, etc. The Protoss controls late game no matter what, if they see after the last battle you lost some vikings, they can chrono out 3 colossus at a time. 7 vikings flying after last battle? Zealot, Stalker, High Templars. It's super easy and the Terran needs to be completely balanced inbetween each fight composition wise. Vs a same skill opponent, it's just not going to happen unless they make a goofy mistake.
The game needs a balance patch to remove Energy Recharge, and possibly revert the High Templar attack so Protoss players actually have to play decently to beat their equals/superiors. You can tell the matchup is imbalanced because a mid-grade EU protoss like Goblin was able to knock out tons of Tier 1 Terrans even though he's a Tier 3 player. When you have tier 3 players consistently knocking out tier 1 players in ONLY one matchup consistently, it says it all.
The spectators deserve better than this. Since release, Terran vs Protoss hasn't been in this bad of a state. And before you say 'Terran tears'. I am a Grandmaster Protoss main. It just sucks when one matchup isn't fun at all to watch anymore. You can literally predict the match as soon as you see Storm or Thermal lance finish upgrading. "Oh, he got thermal lance and isn't dead, 95% chance he wins now".
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France12883 Posts
On July 25 2025 03:01 Agh wrote:So much whine about storms, it's just a Classic diff. If storm was a free win ticket we wouldn't have this race breakdown: + Show Spoiler +Nobody has late game control or decision making of Serral Classic and Maru for each of their races, and the gap is large.
Classic diff stronger on the new patch for sure tho 
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protoss players are just better on every metric. I mean just look at Classic. he's smarter than Clem, faster than Clem, and way more handsome than Clem. terran just attracts less skilled players I guess. maybe in the next few years some young blood "terran Serral" will rise through the ranks and show us how terran is supposed to be played
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On July 25 2025 03:03 Sameday wrote:Clem just played like garbage, honestly he might as well play Protoss vs Protoss because his last 3 TvP series have been bad. His crazy APM gave an advantage over the right opponents in the last patch, but in this patch you have to hit timings against Protoss players, and you either man up and do it or you lose (and probably lose because PvT in pro level right now is like 80% favored for Toss) Classic didn't even have to try and didn't play particularly well. In two of the games Classic basically gave him a free win, losing 10 probes on 2 bases to a basic cyclone marine drop, and had a Robo + obs and still lost like 20 probes to banshees. Even a Diamond NA Toss would've pulled the probes vs a Cyclone drop. As soon as Clem killed all those probes and saved his banshees in game 3, it should've been an immediate SCV pulls joining the banshees. + Show Spoiler +It seems like only Maru seems to mildly understand the state of Terran vs Protoss. The matchup has COMPLETELY CHANGED because of Energy Recharge being imbalanced. It needs to be removed from the game entirely. It gives a high templar over a minute of energy, so the timings need to be over a full minute earlier. If you go banshee with cloak you can slow down storm a bit or reduce the zealot count a bit. If the get storms out, bring only a handful of SCVs, if they go charge/colossus just bring as many as you can. You aren't winning late game unless the Protoss makes a silly mistake. Late game TvP isn't even debatable, it favors Protoss entirely. The longer the game goes, the more army a Protoss can warp in during the middle of each fight. The easier they can defend drops, etc. The Protoss controls late game no matter what, if they see after the last battle you lost some vikings, they can chrono out 3 colossus at a time. 7 vikings flying after last battle? Zealot, Stalker, High Templars. It's super easy and the Terran needs to be completely balanced inbetween each fight composition wise. Vs a same skill opponent, it's just not going to happen unless they make a goofy mistake. The game needs a balance patch to remove Energy Recharge, and possibly revert the High Templar attack so Protoss players actually have to play decently to beat their equals/superiors. You can tell the matchup is imbalanced because a mid-grade EU protoss like Goblin was able to knock out tons of Tier 1 Terrans even though he's a Tier 3 player. When you have tier 3 players consistently knocking out tier 1 players in ONLY one matchup consistently, it says it all. The spectators deserve better than this. Since release, Terran vs Protoss hasn't been in this bad of a state. And before you say 'Terran tears'. I am a Grandmaster Protoss main. It just sucks when one matchup isn't fun at all to watch anymore. You can literally predict the match as soon as you see Storm or Thermal lance finish upgrading. "Oh, he got thermal lance and isn't dead, 95% chance he wins now".
Agreed 100%. Thanks for making this post. Also 3 supply Ghosts while HT are only 2 supply is just... really painful to try and make work. Ghost supply should be reverted to 2.
On July 25 2025 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:44 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta. Hmm I think energy overcharge isn't really the main reason Terran is struggling. Sure it buffs the initial storm timing where storm is limited, but in lategame good toss players had backup High templars anyway all over. Having 3 supply Ghosts with nerfed emp radius on the other hand makes lategame brutal with no counter-nerfs to Protoss
In the early lategame, suppose Protoss is surprised when 20 supply worth of Terran units shows up at a nexus with 3 zealots. In the pre patch world, Protoss had a couple choices:
1. Warp in more Zealots/Stalkers to defend. They will probably trade unfavorably vs the Terran units but this saves your probes and nexus.
2. Don't warp in new units, lose the 3 zealots to buy time for the main army to show up. Trade unfavorably vs Terran by losing the zealots, lose the opportunity to do something else with the main army.
3. Be bad, do nothing, lose zealots, lose probes/nexus.
These are reasonable consequences to suffer for losing track of the Terran army and getting surprised like this, while simultaneously having no templar with storm spread out at expansions to defend them.
Now Protoss's options are
1. Warp in HT, instantly it has 2 storms, chase off the Terran while suffering no costs.
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On July 25 2025 03:05 SHODAN wrote:
protoss players are just better on every metric. I mean just look at Classic. he's smarter than Clem, faster than Clem, and way more handsome than Clem. terran just attracts less skilled players I guess. maybe in the next few years some young blood "terran Serral" will rise through the ranks and show us how terran is supposed to be played
I'm not sure if you're making fun of Protoss players, of Zerg players or of terran players here 
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On July 25 2025 03:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 03:03 Sameday wrote:Clem just played like garbage, honestly he might as well play Protoss vs Protoss because his last 3 TvP series have been bad. His crazy APM gave an advantage over the right opponents in the last patch, but in this patch you have to hit timings against Protoss players, and you either man up and do it or you lose (and probably lose because PvT in pro level right now is like 80% favored for Toss) Classic didn't even have to try and didn't play particularly well. In two of the games Classic basically gave him a free win, losing 10 probes on 2 bases to a basic cyclone marine drop, and had a Robo + obs and still lost like 20 probes to banshees. Even a Diamond NA Toss would've pulled the probes vs a Cyclone drop. As soon as Clem killed all those probes and saved his banshees in game 3, it should've been an immediate SCV pulls joining the banshees. + Show Spoiler +It seems like only Maru seems to mildly understand the state of Terran vs Protoss. The matchup has COMPLETELY CHANGED because of Energy Recharge being imbalanced. It needs to be removed from the game entirely. It gives a high templar over a minute of energy, so the timings need to be over a full minute earlier. If you go banshee with cloak you can slow down storm a bit or reduce the zealot count a bit. If the get storms out, bring only a handful of SCVs, if they go charge/colossus just bring as many as you can. You aren't winning late game unless the Protoss makes a silly mistake. Late game TvP isn't even debatable, it favors Protoss entirely. The longer the game goes, the more army a Protoss can warp in during the middle of each fight. The easier they can defend drops, etc. The Protoss controls late game no matter what, if they see after the last battle you lost some vikings, they can chrono out 3 colossus at a time. 7 vikings flying after last battle? Zealot, Stalker, High Templars. It's super easy and the Terran needs to be completely balanced inbetween each fight composition wise. Vs a same skill opponent, it's just not going to happen unless they make a goofy mistake. The game needs a balance patch to remove Energy Recharge, and possibly revert the High Templar attack so Protoss players actually have to play decently to beat their equals/superiors. You can tell the matchup is imbalanced because a mid-grade EU protoss like Goblin was able to knock out tons of Tier 1 Terrans even though he's a Tier 3 player. When you have tier 3 players consistently knocking out tier 1 players in ONLY one matchup consistently, it says it all. The spectators deserve better than this. Since release, Terran vs Protoss hasn't been in this bad of a state. And before you say 'Terran tears'. I am a Grandmaster Protoss main. It just sucks when one matchup isn't fun at all to watch anymore. You can literally predict the match as soon as you see Storm or Thermal lance finish upgrading. "Oh, he got thermal lance and isn't dead, 95% chance he wins now". Agreed 100%. Thanks for making this post.
Pvt this Tournament is 13-11 so far btw.
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On July 25 2025 03:08 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 03:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 03:03 Sameday wrote:Clem just played like garbage, honestly he might as well play Protoss vs Protoss because his last 3 TvP series have been bad. His crazy APM gave an advantage over the right opponents in the last patch, but in this patch you have to hit timings against Protoss players, and you either man up and do it or you lose (and probably lose because PvT in pro level right now is like 80% favored for Toss) Classic didn't even have to try and didn't play particularly well. In two of the games Classic basically gave him a free win, losing 10 probes on 2 bases to a basic cyclone marine drop, and had a Robo + obs and still lost like 20 probes to banshees. Even a Diamond NA Toss would've pulled the probes vs a Cyclone drop. As soon as Clem killed all those probes and saved his banshees in game 3, it should've been an immediate SCV pulls joining the banshees. + Show Spoiler +It seems like only Maru seems to mildly understand the state of Terran vs Protoss. The matchup has COMPLETELY CHANGED because of Energy Recharge being imbalanced. It needs to be removed from the game entirely. It gives a high templar over a minute of energy, so the timings need to be over a full minute earlier. If you go banshee with cloak you can slow down storm a bit or reduce the zealot count a bit. If the get storms out, bring only a handful of SCVs, if they go charge/colossus just bring as many as you can. You aren't winning late game unless the Protoss makes a silly mistake. Late game TvP isn't even debatable, it favors Protoss entirely. The longer the game goes, the more army a Protoss can warp in during the middle of each fight. The easier they can defend drops, etc. The Protoss controls late game no matter what, if they see after the last battle you lost some vikings, they can chrono out 3 colossus at a time. 7 vikings flying after last battle? Zealot, Stalker, High Templars. It's super easy and the Terran needs to be completely balanced inbetween each fight composition wise. Vs a same skill opponent, it's just not going to happen unless they make a goofy mistake. The game needs a balance patch to remove Energy Recharge, and possibly revert the High Templar attack so Protoss players actually have to play decently to beat their equals/superiors. You can tell the matchup is imbalanced because a mid-grade EU protoss like Goblin was able to knock out tons of Tier 1 Terrans even though he's a Tier 3 player. When you have tier 3 players consistently knocking out tier 1 players in ONLY one matchup consistently, it says it all. The spectators deserve better than this. Since release, Terran vs Protoss hasn't been in this bad of a state. And before you say 'Terran tears'. I am a Grandmaster Protoss main. It just sucks when one matchup isn't fun at all to watch anymore. You can literally predict the match as soon as you see Storm or Thermal lance finish upgrading. "Oh, he got thermal lance and isn't dead, 95% chance he wins now". Agreed 100%. Thanks for making this post. Pvt this Tournament is 13-11 so far btw.
Excuse me sir this is a feels thread, please keep your statistics out of it 
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On July 25 2025 03:08 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 03:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 03:03 Sameday wrote:Clem just played like garbage, honestly he might as well play Protoss vs Protoss because his last 3 TvP series have been bad. His crazy APM gave an advantage over the right opponents in the last patch, but in this patch you have to hit timings against Protoss players, and you either man up and do it or you lose (and probably lose because PvT in pro level right now is like 80% favored for Toss) Classic didn't even have to try and didn't play particularly well. In two of the games Classic basically gave him a free win, losing 10 probes on 2 bases to a basic cyclone marine drop, and had a Robo + obs and still lost like 20 probes to banshees. Even a Diamond NA Toss would've pulled the probes vs a Cyclone drop. As soon as Clem killed all those probes and saved his banshees in game 3, it should've been an immediate SCV pulls joining the banshees. + Show Spoiler +It seems like only Maru seems to mildly understand the state of Terran vs Protoss. The matchup has COMPLETELY CHANGED because of Energy Recharge being imbalanced. It needs to be removed from the game entirely. It gives a high templar over a minute of energy, so the timings need to be over a full minute earlier. If you go banshee with cloak you can slow down storm a bit or reduce the zealot count a bit. If the get storms out, bring only a handful of SCVs, if they go charge/colossus just bring as many as you can. You aren't winning late game unless the Protoss makes a silly mistake. Late game TvP isn't even debatable, it favors Protoss entirely. The longer the game goes, the more army a Protoss can warp in during the middle of each fight. The easier they can defend drops, etc. The Protoss controls late game no matter what, if they see after the last battle you lost some vikings, they can chrono out 3 colossus at a time. 7 vikings flying after last battle? Zealot, Stalker, High Templars. It's super easy and the Terran needs to be completely balanced inbetween each fight composition wise. Vs a same skill opponent, it's just not going to happen unless they make a goofy mistake. The game needs a balance patch to remove Energy Recharge, and possibly revert the High Templar attack so Protoss players actually have to play decently to beat their equals/superiors. You can tell the matchup is imbalanced because a mid-grade EU protoss like Goblin was able to knock out tons of Tier 1 Terrans even though he's a Tier 3 player. When you have tier 3 players consistently knocking out tier 1 players in ONLY one matchup consistently, it says it all. The spectators deserve better than this. Since release, Terran vs Protoss hasn't been in this bad of a state. And before you say 'Terran tears'. I am a Grandmaster Protoss main. It just sucks when one matchup isn't fun at all to watch anymore. You can literally predict the match as soon as you see Storm or Thermal lance finish upgrading. "Oh, he got thermal lance and isn't dead, 95% chance he wins now". Agreed 100%. Thanks for making this post. Pvt this Tournament is 13-11 so far btw.
But no korean protoss has lost a series to terran, the only P that got eliminated from a PvT where Astrea, Trigger and Showtime. Granted, there hasnt been enough PvTs in general.
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France12883 Posts
On July 25 2025 03:08 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 03:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 03:03 Sameday wrote:Clem just played like garbage, honestly he might as well play Protoss vs Protoss because his last 3 TvP series have been bad. His crazy APM gave an advantage over the right opponents in the last patch, but in this patch you have to hit timings against Protoss players, and you either man up and do it or you lose (and probably lose because PvT in pro level right now is like 80% favored for Toss) Classic didn't even have to try and didn't play particularly well. In two of the games Classic basically gave him a free win, losing 10 probes on 2 bases to a basic cyclone marine drop, and had a Robo + obs and still lost like 20 probes to banshees. Even a Diamond NA Toss would've pulled the probes vs a Cyclone drop. As soon as Clem killed all those probes and saved his banshees in game 3, it should've been an immediate SCV pulls joining the banshees. + Show Spoiler +It seems like only Maru seems to mildly understand the state of Terran vs Protoss. The matchup has COMPLETELY CHANGED because of Energy Recharge being imbalanced. It needs to be removed from the game entirely. It gives a high templar over a minute of energy, so the timings need to be over a full minute earlier. If you go banshee with cloak you can slow down storm a bit or reduce the zealot count a bit. If the get storms out, bring only a handful of SCVs, if they go charge/colossus just bring as many as you can. You aren't winning late game unless the Protoss makes a silly mistake. Late game TvP isn't even debatable, it favors Protoss entirely. The longer the game goes, the more army a Protoss can warp in during the middle of each fight. The easier they can defend drops, etc. The Protoss controls late game no matter what, if they see after the last battle you lost some vikings, they can chrono out 3 colossus at a time. 7 vikings flying after last battle? Zealot, Stalker, High Templars. It's super easy and the Terran needs to be completely balanced inbetween each fight composition wise. Vs a same skill opponent, it's just not going to happen unless they make a goofy mistake. The game needs a balance patch to remove Energy Recharge, and possibly revert the High Templar attack so Protoss players actually have to play decently to beat their equals/superiors. You can tell the matchup is imbalanced because a mid-grade EU protoss like Goblin was able to knock out tons of Tier 1 Terrans even though he's a Tier 3 player. When you have tier 3 players consistently knocking out tier 1 players in ONLY one matchup consistently, it says it all. The spectators deserve better than this. Since release, Terran vs Protoss hasn't been in this bad of a state. And before you say 'Terran tears'. I am a Grandmaster Protoss main. It just sucks when one matchup isn't fun at all to watch anymore. You can literally predict the match as soon as you see Storm or Thermal lance finish upgrading. "Oh, he got thermal lance and isn't dead, 95% chance he wins now". Agreed 100%. Thanks for making this post. Pvt this Tournament is 13-11 so far btw.
Thanks Astrea, trigger and ShoWTimE for being free food
Thanks Clem for beating a top terran with offrace protoss
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On July 25 2025 02:58 Asha wrote:
Feel like Clem needs to cheese more in TvP. He basically never does it because he's mechanically so clean but it gives too much of a free ride to stronger opponents in how they react to his midgame phase.
Agreed. When you are at peak of competition you have to not get too comfortable with one play style.
Serral is also a defensive/macro oriented player his whole career, but he had only become more dominant once he started to mix in more timings attacks and all-in into his gameplan since 2022.
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On July 25 2025 03:11 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 03:08 darklycid wrote:On July 25 2025 03:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 03:03 Sameday wrote:Clem just played like garbage, honestly he might as well play Protoss vs Protoss because his last 3 TvP series have been bad. His crazy APM gave an advantage over the right opponents in the last patch, but in this patch you have to hit timings against Protoss players, and you either man up and do it or you lose (and probably lose because PvT in pro level right now is like 80% favored for Toss) Classic didn't even have to try and didn't play particularly well. In two of the games Classic basically gave him a free win, losing 10 probes on 2 bases to a basic cyclone marine drop, and had a Robo + obs and still lost like 20 probes to banshees. Even a Diamond NA Toss would've pulled the probes vs a Cyclone drop. As soon as Clem killed all those probes and saved his banshees in game 3, it should've been an immediate SCV pulls joining the banshees. + Show Spoiler +It seems like only Maru seems to mildly understand the state of Terran vs Protoss. The matchup has COMPLETELY CHANGED because of Energy Recharge being imbalanced. It needs to be removed from the game entirely. It gives a high templar over a minute of energy, so the timings need to be over a full minute earlier. If you go banshee with cloak you can slow down storm a bit or reduce the zealot count a bit. If the get storms out, bring only a handful of SCVs, if they go charge/colossus just bring as many as you can. You aren't winning late game unless the Protoss makes a silly mistake. Late game TvP isn't even debatable, it favors Protoss entirely. The longer the game goes, the more army a Protoss can warp in during the middle of each fight. The easier they can defend drops, etc. The Protoss controls late game no matter what, if they see after the last battle you lost some vikings, they can chrono out 3 colossus at a time. 7 vikings flying after last battle? Zealot, Stalker, High Templars. It's super easy and the Terran needs to be completely balanced inbetween each fight composition wise. Vs a same skill opponent, it's just not going to happen unless they make a goofy mistake. The game needs a balance patch to remove Energy Recharge, and possibly revert the High Templar attack so Protoss players actually have to play decently to beat their equals/superiors. You can tell the matchup is imbalanced because a mid-grade EU protoss like Goblin was able to knock out tons of Tier 1 Terrans even though he's a Tier 3 player. When you have tier 3 players consistently knocking out tier 1 players in ONLY one matchup consistently, it says it all. The spectators deserve better than this. Since release, Terran vs Protoss hasn't been in this bad of a state. And before you say 'Terran tears'. I am a Grandmaster Protoss main. It just sucks when one matchup isn't fun at all to watch anymore. You can literally predict the match as soon as you see Storm or Thermal lance finish upgrading. "Oh, he got thermal lance and isn't dead, 95% chance he wins now". Agreed 100%. Thanks for making this post. Pvt this Tournament is 13-11 so far btw. But no korean protoss has lost a series to terran, the only P that got eliminated from a PvT where Astrea, Trigger and Showtime. Granted, there hasnt been enough PvTs in general.
Oh man we're back to Korean foreigner comparisons in current year, what a time to be alive.
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On July 25 2025 03:01 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:03 dysenterymd wrote:On July 25 2025 02:01 onPHYRE wrote:On July 25 2025 01:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:44 Promised_pain wrote:On July 25 2025 01:30 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2025 01:29 Promised_pain wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Facts. I think only Clem could take out Serral right now. But even if he manages to snatch a second world title the koreaboos are still gonna draw out the "but, but, but... GSL!" card. Serral never played and never will play in GSL, which is understandable since it would be a netloss considering the peanut price pool. On the other hand, Maru's had his chances for at least eight years (or however long the world title has been up for grabs), yet has never delivered. So Serral never having played in the GSL should be rated higher than Maru reaching 2 finals and 4 ro4s in world championships? If we reversed the roles and let Serral play in the GSL for eight years (like Maru has had his chances for world title) I would be surprised if he didn't win it at least once considering how he has been pretty much invincible against Koreans for years now So you're basing everything on a fantasy what if that you have zero evidence of. That's a compelling argument. No evidence? You don’t think there is evidence Serral would absolutely dominate a few of those GSLs? How about winning multiple world titles and being the best player in the world in both the eye test and Aligulac. Saying it’s different and the preparation makes it so, the game is fundamentally the same and that’s a terrible argument. Everyone always preps for Serral and there are plenty of tournaments he won where the players had weeks if not months to prepare for him and failing badly. I’ve read some ridiculous things on here but this is a terrible take. Side note - my Serral 5:3 Classic finals prediction looking good. if Serral played a lot of GSL, I think he almost certainly would have won several. But at the end of the day, in a GOAT conversation, we can only compare their actual achievements, not what might have happened. (FWIW I still think Serral is the goat. We just can't give him credit for GSL's he could/would have won if he'd participated. ) Exactly. If you think Serral is the GOAT based on his actual achievements then that's your argument, stand behind it and defend it. The fact he hasn't won any GSL Code S tournaments is a valid complaint and is usually only ever brought up as a counter to the fact that Maru has never won a World Championship. You're not going to get anywhere playing make believe and pretending that Serral could have won a bunch of tournaments he's never played in. That just makes you sound insecure and not really believing of your own guy. Serral has a good enough argument for being the GOAT without his fans trying to gaslight people into believing that he won GSL Code S games he never played in, or that he won during a Terran favored meta (ROFL) in 2018-2019.
Yes the most dominant player in the game history by miles, for the longest time, would not have won a tournament named "GSL Code S" that happens/happened multiple times per year, despite winning every other tournament (including 2 out of 2 in Korea) he attended is a good argument.
Only reason Maru hasn't won a world championship is bad luck, and world championships are rare, they're not like GSL's that you have multiple a year, he'd have won a few if you had as many world championships as you do GSL's.
The reason Serral > Maru is because Serral is just an objectively better player by statistics and more accomplished.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1lOTtq2.png)
