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TvP in macro games has looked incredibly difficult at the top level for months now, if terran doesn't manage to do a ton of damage or allin the games all look like such an uphill fight. Especially vs Classic, he's clearly the best macro protoss player in the world right now
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Never been a repeat champ, and there shall not be tomorrow either.
GG Classic. Really solid decision making throughout.
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Protoss deathball cannot be beaten. You try to go in and there's lasers on you. You try to play from distance and there's storms over you. How are we supposed to defeat the deathball?
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Hard not to see Serral winning it all tomorrow. Still can't wait for the games !
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On July 25 2025 02:40 geokilla wrote:
Protoss deathball cannot be beaten. You try to go in and there's lasers on you. You try to play from distance and there's storms over you. How are we supposed to defeat the deathball?
Easy, make more Ghost, they are supposed to be OP, remember?
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amazing level by Classic! sick series!!!
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France12883 Posts
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United States33389 Posts
Really impressed with how Classic improved his defensive reaction speed/multitasking compared to a year ago. During most of his post-military run I thought it was a huge liability, and something he might not be able to overcome due to old age/rust.
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On July 25 2025 02:40 geokilla wrote:
Protoss deathball cannot be beaten. You try to go in and there's lasers on you. You try to play from distance and there's storms over you. How are we supposed to defeat the deathball?
Could be a 2010 TL post. Heh.
If serious; don't lose reaper at the start, don't lose medivac+tank a second later, make better decisions with banshee + air units.
On July 25 2025 02:42 Waxangel wrote:
Really impressed with how Classic improved his defensive reaction speed/multitasking compared to a year ago. During most of his post-military run I thought it was a huge liability, and something he might not be able to overcome due to old age/rust.
Yeah!!!
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Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta.
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On July 25 2025 02:42 Gescom wrote:
Could be a 2010 TL post. Heh.
I tought TvP had evolved into a better MU in LotV, seeing MMM ghost viking vs protoss colossus deathball with storm again made have PTSD flashback to WoL.
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On July 25 2025 02:10 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:03 WombaT wrote:On July 25 2025 01:41 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 01:39 tigera6 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:32 WombaT wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. I think the one thing they don’t overestimate is his skill level, least in terms of playing the game. He’s absolutely bonkers at it. If we’re talking both players combined, I think the highest quality set I’ve ever seen was Maru vs Serral on Radhuset. If Maru has a weakness, IMO he struggles to beat people who equal or even surpass his skill level at times. I think his strongest periods were when JAGW were still a thing, and maybe that helped cover it a little. There is that contrast with Serral, even if he doesn’t necessarily 100% solve a new rival who hits his level in raw mechanical ability, he figures ways to remain competitive. Reynor was having some joy, but Serral wrested that H2H back in his general favour. Clem was smacking Serral around in 2024 when he levelled up, but Serral in 2025 has managed to beat him in a Bo9, and even in losses they’re always into the decider. When Maru and Serral finally started meeting in tournaments more regularly, Maru couldn’t figure out how to arrest the slide and it actually got more one-sided over time. To the degree Maru has basically the worst record against Serral outside of Cure among S-A tier pros. The problem I have with how Maru played for the last couple years, more often on TvZ and TvT, is how he always tend to build more worker and CC instead of unit production. He seems to be too fine sitting at home in the dark and just die to a push because he doesnt have enough units. I feel like his TvP worked so well recently because he can jus shove it at any moment and win the game. I agree. I think part of that is due to injury. Maru definitely slowed down a lot since his peak. I dunno I think it’s a bit of a myth in ways, with something in it in others. According to Mizenhauer Maru’s shoulder was an issue before he became a progamer, and he turned down an approach from a BW team for this reason. APM isn’t everything but he’s still gapping every other non-Clem Terran, sometimes considerably. There’s a reason he’ll play games and lose 10-15 workers and still be even or ahead, his mechanics are still crazy. I think his injury issues do affect things like a volume of play and that affects his shape, but Maru locked in doesn’t seem much slower as a player, if at all. Disagree. Up until 2018/2019 he was generally regarded as the fastest player in the scene, now the consensus is that he's not the fastest anymore. Also just the fact he changed his playstyle from aggressive control freak to defensive lategame master.
That’s as much due to new players emerging who are faster, than Maru slowing down.
If anything I think Maru’s defensive lategame style is as mechanically demanding, if not more than playing aggressively.
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On July 25 2025 02:44 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta.
Some 21 year old upstart Terran with Clem-like speed will again figure out that having a diverse unit composition split into many groups being dropped all over rather than having a stormable, stimmed MMM clump is the way. And of course, nothing wrong with mixing in some proxy rax all-ins to keep Toss players honest in their openings.
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On July 25 2025 02:42 Waxangel wrote:
Really impressed with how Classic improved his defensive reaction speed/multitasking compared to a year ago. During most of his post-military run I thought it was a huge liability, and something he might not be able to overcome due to old age/rust.
Yeah his brain was clearly always there, just not always the hands. Now he’s looking really rock solid
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France12883 Posts
On July 25 2025 02:46 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:10 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2025 02:03 WombaT wrote:On July 25 2025 01:41 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 01:39 tigera6 wrote:On July 25 2025 01:32 WombaT wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. I think the one thing they don’t overestimate is his skill level, least in terms of playing the game. He’s absolutely bonkers at it. If we’re talking both players combined, I think the highest quality set I’ve ever seen was Maru vs Serral on Radhuset. If Maru has a weakness, IMO he struggles to beat people who equal or even surpass his skill level at times. I think his strongest periods were when JAGW were still a thing, and maybe that helped cover it a little. There is that contrast with Serral, even if he doesn’t necessarily 100% solve a new rival who hits his level in raw mechanical ability, he figures ways to remain competitive. Reynor was having some joy, but Serral wrested that H2H back in his general favour. Clem was smacking Serral around in 2024 when he levelled up, but Serral in 2025 has managed to beat him in a Bo9, and even in losses they’re always into the decider. When Maru and Serral finally started meeting in tournaments more regularly, Maru couldn’t figure out how to arrest the slide and it actually got more one-sided over time. To the degree Maru has basically the worst record against Serral outside of Cure among S-A tier pros. The problem I have with how Maru played for the last couple years, more often on TvZ and TvT, is how he always tend to build more worker and CC instead of unit production. He seems to be too fine sitting at home in the dark and just die to a push because he doesnt have enough units. I feel like his TvP worked so well recently because he can jus shove it at any moment and win the game. I agree. I think part of that is due to injury. Maru definitely slowed down a lot since his peak. I dunno I think it’s a bit of a myth in ways, with something in it in others. According to Mizenhauer Maru’s shoulder was an issue before he became a progamer, and he turned down an approach from a BW team for this reason. APM isn’t everything but he’s still gapping every other non-Clem Terran, sometimes considerably. There’s a reason he’ll play games and lose 10-15 workers and still be even or ahead, his mechanics are still crazy. I think his injury issues do affect things like a volume of play and that affects his shape, but Maru locked in doesn’t seem much slower as a player, if at all. Disagree. Up until 2018/2019 he was generally regarded as the fastest player in the scene, now the consensus is that he's not the fastest anymore. Also just the fact he changed his playstyle from aggressive control freak to defensive lategame master. That’s as much due to new players emerging who are faster, than Maru slowing down. If anything I think Maru’s defensive lategame style is as mechanically demanding, if not more than playing aggressively.
Not really, Maru has visibly slowed down in his gameplay, look up Maru even in 2017 he was hella faster than nowadays. Still, he is precise and smart so he can still play at high level, but he is way past his prime
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On July 25 2025 02:47 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:44 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta. Some 21 year old upstart Terran with Clem-like speed will again figure out that having a diverse unit composition split into many groups being dropped all over rather than having a stormable, stimmed MMM clump is the way.
Classic used 6 storms to kill a 1 medivac drop behind his main in that last game. I've literally never seen that before, because storm WAS too precious to waste that way. Not anymore, and that change has completely upended TvP in Protoss's favor. I don't see how this is even a controversial statement.
EDIT: I also am a huge fan of Classic and hope he wins the whole tournament. He has noticeably improved his play and looks like the best defensive protoss in the world. Pretty cool to see!
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On July 25 2025 02:47 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:44 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta. Some 21 year old upstart Terran with Clem-like speed will again figure out that having a diverse unit composition split into many groups being dropped all over rather than having a stormable, stimmed MMM clump is the way. And of course, nothing wrong with mixing in some proxy rax all-ins to keep Toss players honest in their openings.
Storm is especially good versus small, separated clumps of bio if you have just a few Chargelots to mop it up.
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On July 25 2025 02:47 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 02:44 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Storm is balanced because of the long recharge time. Storm is really, really, really good.
Every terran player, once storm is out, is looking at high templar's energy and trying to bait out bad storms or EMP the templars. If you do manage to hit EMPs or to force the protoss to use storm in an unfavorable way, then you have the advantage, because now you have a timing window to do damage to the protoss before storm is back online. That dynamic has been integral to TvP since SC2 came out.
Except now the balance council, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to basically remove that entire dynamic with energy recharge. This makes TvP extremely difficult to play once storm is out, which is why "kill them before they get there" strategies are dominating the TvP meta. Some 21 year old upstart Terran with Clem-like speed will again figure out that having a diverse unit composition split into many groups being dropped all over rather than having a stormable, stimmed MMM clump is the way. And of course, nothing wrong with mixing in some proxy rax all-ins to keep Toss players honest in their openings.
Thats like saying Zerg/Protoss should learn how to split to avoid Widow Mines and EMP, instead those were nerfed. And good luck playing proxy all-in when Protoss does Probe scout and can follow with another Hallucination scout.
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I’m interested to see what the “Solar Way” is to deal with classic style in zvp. Not sure how well his aggressive style gonna work on classic defensive style in this matchup.
Worked well against hero gateway style
I expect solar to run into a brick wall over and over tomorrow. Unless he thinks of some early all in cheese
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I mean Storm is very strong but i also feel Like terrans are Just ramming their head against the Wall until it Breaks rn. Like protoss are going 4gas Storm, which is quite the Gas Investment. That should be abusable.
Imo terrans Just didnt find a good solution yet (the heavy Storm Meta isnt that old yet). Case in Point Like 4-5 months ago (and even now) every zerg was raving about zvp being unplayable and Look at it now.
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EPT
