EPTOn July 25 2025 15:48 Poopi wrote:
Smart way to discredit your goat ranking of rankings furthermore with that take
Zerg 2019 was something else
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2025 15:18 PremoBeats wrote:
It is interesting how a couple of people recently told me that some statistics can't be true because of their subjective feelings.
You can't even imagine a world where there have been a couple of really good Zerg players that simply by luck or chance made it to the Ro8 or Ro4, despite the odds being around 50%. It is fine, if you are not able to rationalize this fact because "you watched and remember", but that is not how statistics work.
If you think a 52 to 48% win percentage for Zerg means that the race is OP, fine by me... you do you.
I know. I've been trying to explain this to ejozl because of his money based GOAT rating.
I used map statistics.
On July 25 2025 05:49 dedede wrote:
If you want to use any stats to convince people that 2019 is not zerg-op patch it's a dead end. Everyone who watched the games know and remember what happened. 5 zergs in ro8, 3 zergs in ro4. Saying 2018/2019 is terran-favored patch is hilarious. Maru was the last terran in GSL 2018 also Blizzcon WCS 2019.
On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:
I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely.
For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players.
On EWC:
Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series...
Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament.
Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead.
Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells.
Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:
Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination.
Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc
Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks.
Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor.
Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:
Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table.
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table.
Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination.
Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc
Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks.
Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor.
Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely.
For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players.
On EWC:
Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series...
Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament.
Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead.
Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells.
Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
If you want to use any stats to convince people that 2019 is not zerg-op patch it's a dead end. Everyone who watched the games know and remember what happened. 5 zergs in ro8, 3 zergs in ro4. Saying 2018/2019 is terran-favored patch is hilarious. Maru was the last terran in GSL 2018 also Blizzcon WCS 2019.
It is interesting how a couple of people recently told me that some statistics can't be true because of their subjective feelings.
You can't even imagine a world where there have been a couple of really good Zerg players that simply by luck or chance made it to the Ro8 or Ro4, despite the odds being around 50%. It is fine, if you are not able to rationalize this fact because "you watched and remember", but that is not how statistics work.
If you think a 52 to 48% win percentage for Zerg means that the race is OP, fine by me... you do you.
On July 25 2025 07:44 LostUsername100 wrote:
Prize money is just a really bad metric overall for determining how good a player is, decent to find out who won more big tournaments, but thats about it.
Just use adjusted aligulac ratings vs race median rating in the top10 or something of that sort.
On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:
I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely.
For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players.
On EWC:
Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series...
Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament.
Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead.
Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells.
Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:
Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination.
Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc
Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks.
Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor.
Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:
Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table.
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table.
Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination.
Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc
Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks.
Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor.
Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely.
For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players.
On EWC:
Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series...
Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament.
Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead.
Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells.
Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
Prize money is just a really bad metric overall for determining how good a player is, decent to find out who won more big tournaments, but thats about it.
Just use adjusted aligulac ratings vs race median rating in the top10 or something of that sort.
I know. I've been trying to explain this to ejozl because of his money based GOAT rating.
I used map statistics.
Smart way to discredit your goat ranking of rankings furthermore with that take
Zerg 2019 was something else
I am simply handing out the statistics. I don't really care if people are offended by them.
It will probably be similar to the pRotOss iS coMplEtelY OP at the moment argument. A lot of feelings and personal bias that is not supported by data.
On July 25 2025 16:32 dedede wrote:
I'm just telling you if you try to say Zerg 2019 is not OP with your "statistics" then good luck you really picked the wrong year lol.
Besides statistics is not about collecting and calculating data. Statistics 101: Statistics is not mathematics and Statistics is not meaningful without context. I’m pretty sure I have a stronger academic background in statistics, no offense.
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2025 15:18 PremoBeats wrote:
It is interesting how a couple of people recently told me that some statistics can't be true because of their subjective feelings.
You can't even imagine a world where there have been a couple of really good Zerg players that simply by luck or chance made it to the Ro8 or Ro4, despite the odds being around 50%. It is fine, if you are not able to rationalize this fact because "you watched and remember", but that is not how statistics work.
If you think a 52 to 48% win percentage for Zerg means that the race is OP, fine by me... you do you.
I know. I've been trying to explain this to ejozl because of his money based GOAT rating.
I used map statistics.
On July 25 2025 05:49 dedede wrote:
If you want to use any stats to convince people that 2019 is not zerg-op patch it's a dead end. Everyone who watched the games know and remember what happened. 5 zergs in ro8, 3 zergs in ro4. Saying 2018/2019 is terran-favored patch is hilarious. Maru was the last terran in GSL 2018 also Blizzcon WCS 2019.
On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:
I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely.
For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players.
On EWC:
Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series...
Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament.
Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead.
Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells.
Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:
Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination.
Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc
Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks.
Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor.
Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:
Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table.
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table.
Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination.
Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc
Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks.
Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor.
Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely.
For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players.
On EWC:
Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series...
Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament.
Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead.
Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells.
Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
If you want to use any stats to convince people that 2019 is not zerg-op patch it's a dead end. Everyone who watched the games know and remember what happened. 5 zergs in ro8, 3 zergs in ro4. Saying 2018/2019 is terran-favored patch is hilarious. Maru was the last terran in GSL 2018 also Blizzcon WCS 2019.
It is interesting how a couple of people recently told me that some statistics can't be true because of their subjective feelings.
You can't even imagine a world where there have been a couple of really good Zerg players that simply by luck or chance made it to the Ro8 or Ro4, despite the odds being around 50%. It is fine, if you are not able to rationalize this fact because "you watched and remember", but that is not how statistics work.
If you think a 52 to 48% win percentage for Zerg means that the race is OP, fine by me... you do you.
On July 25 2025 07:44 LostUsername100 wrote:
Prize money is just a really bad metric overall for determining how good a player is, decent to find out who won more big tournaments, but thats about it.
Just use adjusted aligulac ratings vs race median rating in the top10 or something of that sort.
On July 25 2025 05:29 PremoBeats wrote:
I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely.
For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players.
On EWC:
Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series...
Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament.
Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead.
Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells.
Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
On July 25 2025 01:38 Vindicare605 wrote:
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:
Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination.
Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc
Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks.
Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor.
Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:
Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table.
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table.
Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination.
Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc
Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks.
Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor.
Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
I am currently working on a balance-multiplier for my new GOAT list. For that I analyze top tier tournaments for race map win rates... they are not completely done, but so far in 2018's TvZ stands at 51,66% (so slightly Terran favored) and 2019's 48,06% (slightly Zerg favored). This is still not done completely.
For the methodology: Only non region locks were looked at and tournaments had to have a minimum amount of players and maps to avoid including data, where one Korean butchered a couple of Chinese players.
On EWC:
Overall the games have been an absolute banger. Starting off with this insane ZvZ between Serral and Reynor... I think we can take over Faker's moniker and call Serral the unkillable demong king of SC2 at this point in time. Absolute banger series...
Classic defeating Clem 3-0 was quite a shocker, although many put him as the strongest Protoss in the tournament.
Serral now is most likely grabbing his third title, especially because of the much longer series ahead.
Iirc he only ever lost Bo7s versus Terrans against INno and Clem after turning full time pro, so Cure's chances don't seem to high. Him losing a mirror is probably more realistic (especially as it is Solar who was the last Zerg to defeat Serral before Dark), although I hardly see anyone defeating him in a Bo9 except Clem. Classic might have a change as the games in the 0-3 have been much closer than the result tells.
Either way, we will have a great final day tomorrow.
Prize money is just a really bad metric overall for determining how good a player is, decent to find out who won more big tournaments, but thats about it.
Just use adjusted aligulac ratings vs race median rating in the top10 or something of that sort.
I know. I've been trying to explain this to ejozl because of his money based GOAT rating.
I used map statistics.
I'm just telling you if you try to say Zerg 2019 is not OP with your "statistics" then good luck you really picked the wrong year lol.
Besides statistics is not about collecting and calculating data. Statistics 101: Statistics is not mathematics and Statistics is not meaningful without context. I’m pretty sure I have a stronger academic background in statistics, no offense.
No offense taken by arguments from authority... I am pretty immune to logical fallacies
But if you are so versed in statistics: Can you explain what I did wrong (and just to be clear... I already said that the lists are not completely done yet) or which context I am missing?
- I used only top tier events so to not dilute the result with lower tier statistics.
- I made sure to have a critical mass of players and a minimum amount of games to not have small tournaments where one person dominated give false impressions.
- the sample sizes so far includes 750 - 800 games per year
- it basically is simple counting and ratio building... nothing fancy
By the way: Terran suffered much more from Protoss that year so far... PvT stands at 55,81%.
and why people went nuts when Classic beat Rogue with blink DTs), etc.
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