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On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote:
Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
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Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game.
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On December 17 2023 18:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote:
Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player. 2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
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On December 17 2023 19:14 Hider wrote:
Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game.
IMO Libs are part of the problem, even if only indirectly. Because say if Libs were slightly nerfed, then Protoss would also know they can take their time more and not feel pressured to end the game before lots of Libs are added.
IMO, there doesn't seem to be a need for them to be reactorable.
They are a high tech unit, basically a flying tank, so it should be tech lab, especially if they want to keep the decreased cost. This would make the investment needed to add Tempests more equivalent to the time needed to invest in Libs.
At least the Tempest buff did help a little in making the costly transition more worth it vs Libs.
Protoss does seem fragile in PvT, being put into high pressure situations that require really good control/coordination and army splitting to break a simple sieged position that is much easier for the Terran to control. But with the recent patches it does seem fine to me now. Protoss power noticeably still spikes once they get 6-8 Disruptors in their army, such as when Creator starts to suddenly swing a very close game into a 120 supply army vs 80 supply army and end the game in a minute.
It just seems like since Protoss power later on heavily requires on AOE units to be able to fight basic MMM, Protoss can quickly lose a fight/game if they don't land good AOE, meanwhile for Terran if they lose their tech units it isn't as drastic. Of course it's really hard to compare race differences like this though, for example sometimes it feels Terran has much higher fire powerful, but Protoss can reinforce easier and it's really powerful that in the lategame Protoss can warp in 20 gateway units into a fight.
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On December 17 2023 21:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2023 19:14 Hider wrote:
Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game. IMO Libs are part of the problem, even if only indirectly. Because say if Libs were slightly nerfed, then Protoss would also know they can take their time more and not feel pressured to end the game before lots of Libs are added.
It's terran players that doesn't like taking their time and instead tries to end the game with timing attacks. This is what we saw every single Tvp in this tournament. Protoss wants to get to late game.
Libs are super strong admittedly and on some maps I think they are broken when they can deny mining and thus forces air.
However, as long as protoss players have more bases, it seems to be balanced around that. And I think this is an interesting dynamic.
Hypothetically speaking, if what you were saying is true, and terran late game actually is slightly too strong, I rather balance this around buffs to protoss that makes it easier to abuse the immobility of the terran army. E.g. Immortals movement speed upgrade that also makes them resistant to Concussive Shell.
being put into high pressure situations that require really good control/coordination and army splitting to break a simple sieged position that is much easier for the Terran to control
Managing libs, ghosts, bio on many bases is insanely hard. There is a reason Heromarine hasn't won a late game against a 6.6k + protoss player in years (slight overexaggeration). Late game is more forgiving for protoss because they have better economy and can afford to make mistakes - terran cannot. Although if terran players "perfectly" (and it's map dependent how easy this is), it's indeed hard for protoss.
But I watched a ton of PvT's this past month - I don't think we can make anything conclusive on late game TvP yet.
However, TvP timing attacks is clearly an issue. Majority of the protoss losses this tournament in PvT were due to protoss getting attacked slightly before a critical upgrade.
It just seems like since Protoss power later on heavily requires on AOE units to be able to fight basic MMM
This has always been the case, but in today's meta I think it's the closest we have ever been to not be the case. (MMM isn't a thing in today's TvP. It's always with tanks as timings or ghosts as well, so I assume you mean MMM + ghosts)
Dependant on if you count Colossus as AoE or not; Protoss players can in many situations be okay with Colossus as only AoE source as long for long streches of the game if they play fast enough. Disruptors seems optionally which I think is a good thing.
Generally the gameplay and unit compositions in TvP are interesting - but it's simply too hard for protoss to consistently get there.
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On December 17 2023 21:19 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2023 21:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 17 2023 19:14 Hider wrote:
Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game. IMO Libs are part of the problem, even if only indirectly. Because say if Libs were slightly nerfed, then Protoss would also know they can take their time more and not feel pressured to end the game before lots of Libs are added. It's terran players that doesn't like taking their time and instead tries to end the game with timing attacks. This is what we saw every single Tvp in this tournament. Protoss wants to get to late game. Libs are super strong admittedly and on some maps I think they are broken when they can deny mining and thus forces air. However, as long as protoss players have more bases, it seems to be balanced around that. And I think this is an interesting dynamic. Hypothetically speaking, if what you were saying is true, and terran late game actually is slightly too strong (which again was now what we saw this tournament), then I rather balance this around buffs to protoss that makes it easier to abuse the immobility of the terran army.
Tbh i feel I've seen games both ways (Protoss ending the game instead of growing an advantage and going even later, and also Terran trying to end the game instead of going late). I feel like that's just a part of pro games, once they feel they've swung the game into their momentum then they'll try to convert it to a win. (Because it's also just tiring and emotionally taxing to play lots of long games, especially for Atlanta). So I'm not sure if i agree exactly on that part.
Yeah Libs being in places that you have to get a Phoenix to deal with seems really strong. It takes a long time to kill it with the Phoenix, that takes attention cus you have to go back and set the probes back to mining etc.
But yeah Protoss being able to have lots of bases does compensate in an interesting way, for example if they have 10-15 probes per base instead of 20 then all kinds of harass will be less effective.
It does make sense to me for Terran's lategame comps to generally have a higher fire power, but be more immobile. And in general we do see Protoss players with their Stalker/Disruptor armies being very active and making the Terran run circles, so it might be balanced out. But i do think there might be some maps where Libs are very strong, maps where it's harder to flank or surround the Libs from behind.
I think for endgame comp, Terran's mass BC is still stronger than Protoss even with the new Tempest and MS, but it's definitely closer now and not unwinnable for Protoss now that Tempests are more mobile and can start running away sooner if BCs try to Jump on top. And the MS can time warp faster and earlier, and have recall faster and earlier.
Managing libs, ghosts, bio on many bases is insanely hard. There is a reason Heromarine hasn't won a late game against a 6.6k + protoss player in years (slight overexaggeration). Late game is actually a lot more forgiving for protoss because they have better economy and can afford to make mistakes - terran cannot. Although if terran players "perfectly" (and it's map dependant how easy this is), it's indeed hard for protoss.
But I watched a ton of PvT's this past month - I don't think we can make anything conclusive on late game TvP yet.
However, TvP timing attacks is clearly an issue. Majority of the protoss losses this tournament in PvT was due to protoss getting attacked slightly before a critical upgrade.
Oh i was talking moreso about the early timing attacks, those are easy to siege and setup compared to Protoss defending and sometimes having to split up their army between 2 bases. Like controlling phoenix, making sure immortals shoot tanks, zealots spread in the right place, stalkers blinking, etc. So maybe we are in agreement about early TvP timing attacks. I think the Battery overcharge nerf from 100% to 50% is still not fully compensated for yet. The Raven became quicker to build and cheaper, so Interference Matrix indirectly was a lot stronger. We've now made Interference Matrix be a little more of an investment, but it only partially makes up for the Raven being cheaper and quicker to get. (Once you build the 2nd Raven, you're still saving 50 gas etc.) It doesn't make up for the Overcharge nerf (the AA missile nerf doesn't either, nor do the Sentry buffs). But at least it's much more balanced now with all the new little buffs like Immortal barrier or Stasis having more sight range.
You're right that lategame is more forgiving for Protoss, cus with many bases and warp-ins it's easy to stay in the game and buy more time and keep playing. Meanwhile Terran if they get a wrong siege or bad engage, the opponent can push into their production and it's over. So yeah maybe it's OK for Terran armies to be super scary and Protoss having to run them in circles.
Overall though now that i think of it, it seems that recent pro TvP has led to many exciting back and forth macro games. Many games at Atlanta and the recent Katowice qualifiers led to 20-40 min games. There was a time, especially for GSL, where pro games would often end in the first push. But now we have lots of army fighting and positioning around the map, trading back and forth until the tides swing in one's favor or until the bases are mined out. TvP used to be a short MU despite being an interesting lategame, but it seems to be better now. There is also enough chances for players to make a comeback through all the different fights by trading sligthly better or getting a good EMP/Nova etc.
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I think for endgame comp, Terran's mass BC is still stronger than Protoss even with the new Tempest and MS, but it's definitely closer now and not unwinnable for Protoss now that Tempests are more mobile and can start running away sooner if BCs try to Jump on top. And the MS can time warp faster and earlier, and have recall faster and earlier.
I think the only game we had this tournament where terran turtled was Maru vs Hero game 1 (which btw was one of the only boring games of the tournament) which Hero easily won while Maru turtled to BCs.
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On December 17 2023 19:14 Hider wrote:
Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game.
i agree and everyone should take a bow.
from Dustin Browder to David Kim to Monk to the Balance Council. To TL for managing a great map creation pipeline. To the players who put themselves through grueling super close series.
My sister in law is an occasional player and she gets up to Gold when she plays for a few days in a row. I play 6 months a year and I get as high as D-1. We both find the casters relate what is going on extremely well. The casting is top notch.
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On December 17 2023 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2023 18:46 Hider wrote:On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote:
Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player. 2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun. Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...).
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i wish we had more Protoss. Isn't it ironical that the last introduced faction painted in Blizzard lore as the enigmatic mysterious race with a tiny population and odd religious leanings is also rare in competitive play.
The next time a Protoss takes a big event it'll be like the movie 300 playing out in real life. Except its a video game. Other than that, its real. 
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we need Trap and Zest back..
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Does anyone think that Protoss might need a slightly better defensive option vs mass crackling style?
It doesn't seem easy or effective to spam battery/canon, because even if you try to clump them to reduce surface area, banelings will then become too effective. So you end up needing to spread them, and they become very inefficient vs cracklings.
Maybe having 1 sentry, HT, archon, or colossus defending a key base could be enough though, and we just don't see it.
(Oracles and stasis are also very accessible and effective).
The other option is, stop making maps where later bases are super open and easy to attack into with a deathball. I don't understand why we can't have some bases be on high ground with a ramp or choke for example. Then you would need to pick the base's defenses apart more carefully in order to break up the ramp, or do things like use air units or drops.
SC2 maps used to have this, with 3-4 player spawns where you could use another main/nat's chokes and ramps.
BW maps also often have chokes/ramps like this, in a game where it's already hard to move deathballs around. It helps promote more spread out gameplay with small skirmishes all over the map, rather than grouping your deathball up so you can take out bases 1 by 1 easily. I feel like SC2 maps are like this just because "deathball" style gameplay is natural for SC2, and so they try to keep areas more open to allow that, and cus maps have been like this forever. Instead we can de-emphasize deathball gameplay further by giving players ways to defend areas with a few units cost effectively. (Ex: lurkers, disruptors, or liberators above a ramp/choke). For example, Golden Wall did this a bit with the upper center bases or the corner bases being viable 4th/5ths. The upper center bases serve as a forward position you can attack from.
Big macro maps like Radhuset allow for players to have more chances for comebacks, and for them to get big economies and fight a lot, which is great. Problem is Zerg naturally has an advantage with huge maps, but we could easily counteract that by making some bases on huge maps have ramps/chokes like in BW. The other problem is that maps like Radhuset being very big, has the side effect of making the first 3-4 bases very easy to hold which can make the beginning boring (and end up favoring Protoss for example). So the way to solve these issues and have a big macro map with lots of fighting and chances to come back, without making the first 3-4 bases too easy to hold, is spread the bases out a little more so you can't just ball your army up to cover all 3-4 bases at once, BUT compensate by giving them ramps/chokes or other features. Now you have more spread out gameplay.
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On December 17 2023 23:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
The other option is, stop making maps where later bases are super open and easy to attack into with a deathball. I don't understand why we can't have some bases be on high ground with a ramp or choke for example.
my Zerg account outranks my terran account precisely because .. with 1 click i can just "throw some zerglings and banelings at it" and then ignore it and do other stuff. The "it" being any later base.
even at the most advanced levels can't Zerg initiate offense with less thought and clicks?
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On December 17 2023 00:33 Luolis wrote:
Creator ties it up vs Kelazhur after getting an advantage with a proxy oracle build. Meanwhile Harstem lost to Reynor in a latelategame.
What a series it was!
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On December 17 2023 22:29 DarkGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2023 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On December 17 2023 18:46 Hider wrote:On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote:
Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player. 2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun. Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...).
Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask
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On December 17 2023 23:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2023 22:29 DarkGamer wrote:On December 17 2023 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On December 17 2023 18:46 Hider wrote:On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote:
Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player. 2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun. Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...). Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask
Yeah i find it pretty interesting he went from that to the opposite, like turtling in TvZ. I guess he's just playing the way he thinks is best to win, but it seems most players have a playstyle and stick to it generally.
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On December 17 2023 23:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2023 23:28 Charoisaur wrote:On December 17 2023 22:29 DarkGamer wrote:On December 17 2023 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On December 17 2023 18:46 Hider wrote:On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote:
Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player. 2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun. Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...). Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask Yeah i find it pretty interesting he went from that to the opposite, like turtling in TvZ. I guess he's just playing the way he thinks is best to win, but it seems most players have a playstyle and stick to it generally.
if I recall correctly he went to a most slow pace style because of his troubles with the shoulder. Even in this tournament you can see how Maru stretches and takes care of his right shoulder (mouse one I think)
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Russian Federation389 Posts
Is it true that in 40 minutes there will be a StormGate showmatch in ESL Atlanta? I can't find where to watch it, why does it have to be so difficult.
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On December 18 2023 00:23 RandomPlayer wrote:
Is it true that in 40 minutes there will be a StormGate showmatch in ESL Atlanta? I can't find where to watch it, why does it have to be so difficult.
It will be cast on the ESL twitch channel, not ESL_SC2
On December 17 2023 23:44 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2023 23:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 17 2023 23:28 Charoisaur wrote:On December 17 2023 22:29 DarkGamer wrote:On December 17 2023 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On December 17 2023 18:46 Hider wrote:On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote:
Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player. 2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun. Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...). Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask Yeah i find it pretty interesting he went from that to the opposite, like turtling in TvZ. I guess he's just playing the way he thinks is best to win, but it seems most players have a playstyle and stick to it generally. if I recall correctly he went to a most slow pace style because of his troubles with the shoulder. Even in this tournament you can see how Maru stretches and takes care of his right shoulder (mouse one I think)
Yeah, hes started playing more turtling style and Mech since having shoulder injury and required surgegy. Since then, hes been back to his aggressive style, partly because of the meta change (Ghost/Raven nerf ect.) and the map change as well. These days hes rarely playing turtling unless he did something bad, falling behind and is forced to defend at home.
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On December 18 2023 00:23 RandomPlayer wrote:
Is it true that in 40 minutes there will be a StormGate showmatch in ESL Atlanta? I can't find where to watch it, why does it have to be so difficult.
Pretty sure it will be on esl_sc2 stream. Semifinals doesnt start for another 4h so it makes sense
Edit: my bad, esl main it is
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EPT
