Happy to announce the result of the GSL style group selection undertaken by Maru and our qualified players!
The selection process (showed above) was via a snake draft starting with Maru as the top seed and defending champion. Maru then had a swap option at the end which he used, replacing MaNa's choice Solar with Elazer who was Clem's choice!
Main event starts in just a week so be sure to tune in!
As a tribute to the hard-working Liquipedia people we have named our groups after the four active editors who historically contributed the most to the SC2 wiki.
Our tournament will also be on Matcherino! Check it out and support it if you feel like it.
Replay pack for the entire tournament (Main event and casted qualifier matches) available at $10 via the matcherino page. KOB works with a limited budget - we appreciate any support in purchasing our replay pack where proceeds go towards production & staff costs. Similar to last year where we released Serral vs Maru for free, we would also be releasing the replays of a top match for free.
After the first two broadcasting days we will hold a series of special fundraising showmatches! Participating players and details will be revealed soon. There will also be an exciting new twist that will make your donations be meaningful not just outside of the game but inside of it too!
Somehow I expected the groups selection to be held in a giant zoom call and streamed somewhere Was actually realy looking forward to watching it, the gsl group nominations are allways realy funny
On November 12 2021 21:47 dbRic1203 wrote: Somehow I expected the groups selection to be held in a giant zoom call and streamed somewhere Was actually realy looking forward to watching it, the gsl group nominations are allways realy funny
with players from widely different regions and time zones participating that was practically impossible, sadly. we hope that this format still offers something fresh and new considering it is happening online.
On November 13 2021 06:49 Nakajin wrote: Interesting that Maru chose Elazer instead of a terran.
With that said, there's also a possibility Maru has 0 idea who Elazer is or what race he play.
They played 4 series since 2018. Elazer had some good results in Global Events (a 2nd place in GSL vs. The World, a semi in WCS Global Final). Your comment is a tad mean.
On November 13 2021 06:49 Nakajin wrote: Interesting that Maru chose Elazer instead of a terran.
With that said, there's also a possibility Maru has 0 idea who Elazer is or what race he play.
They played 4 series since 2018. Elazer had some good results in Global Events (a 2nd place in GSL vs. The World, a semi in WCS Global Final). Your comment is a tad mean.
Oh I don't want it to be mean to Elazer, more about how Maru sometime has seamingly zero knowledge of SC2 outside of Korea.
I feel like he once said that he didn't know who Showtime was or something like that.
On November 13 2021 06:49 Nakajin wrote: Interesting that Maru chose Elazer instead of a terran.
With that said, there's also a possibility Maru has 0 idea who Elazer is or what race he play.
Maru always want to pick a Zerg into his group, I am more suprised that he didnt pick Ragnarok, one of the usual victim.
Probably solar and ragnarok although loss to maru most of the time, they still are able to hold on for quite some time that maru would probably be tired of.
On November 15 2021 04:19 Pandain wrote: Super excited. Bit worried that KoB has the finals set for 4AM in Korea
Its even worse because GSL Super Tournament 3 in on Monday, but they have not yet fixed the schedule of the match because NeXT group A is on the same day and there will be a potential conflict to some of the players. So worst case is that some KRs players might have to play till 5-6am KR and then play the ST on the same day.
On November 15 2021 04:19 Pandain wrote: Super excited. Bit worried that KoB has the finals set for 4AM in Korea
Its even worse because GSL Super Tournament 3 in on Monday, but they have not yet fixed the schedule of the match because NeXT group A is on the same day and there will be a potential conflict to some of the players. So worst case is that some KRs players might have to play till 5-6am KR and then play the ST on the same day.
Oh wow! KoB into ST into Next! Crazy Starcraft week ahead
Full stream schedule for the 2 English streams are here!
Hope everyone is as excited as we are! Players have also kindly recorded interviews where they share their thoughts on the groups and more so do tune in!
Wow it starts super early! That's so cool, finally the koreans won't be too much at a disadvantage / playing at horrible hours. Will probably have to watch without sound at work but only for the first day so not a biggie
Kinda hoping for Maru to win both this and Super Tournament 3, but realistically just one of the two would be dope
Shit I couldn't watch the first match. How did Maru beat MaNa? Was it close or Maru looked fine even with the ping? I am a bit worried especially after reading his translated interview (from Team NV / Crank), the bit about struggling against ShoWTimE disruptors with the high latency.
On November 19 2021 21:52 Poopi wrote: Shit I couldn't watch the first match. How did Maru beat MaNa? Was it close or Maru looked fine even with the ping? I am a bit worried especially after reading his translated interview (from Team NV / Crank), the bit about struggling against ShoWTimE disruptors with the high latency.
Erm, no. Maru just beat Mana. Wasn't even close. Maru looked great so far.
Solar is doing amazingly well against Clem. Solar's late game ZvT is amazing.
He basically just need to sweep Cure and maybe like Special, Time (whom he both swept last time they played) Uthermal and Spirit, he'll have all killed all the pro terran in the word.
Edit: Also good job to SomeDrunkCanadian scoring that drink with Dark lol Great interview
Rogue loved to be called "zhugeliang" instead of SexyBoy. He chose Swarmhost (used to) , Queens and Infestors as the favorite units. Ironically, he haven't used Infestors much since 2018 when he dominated Trap with Infested Terrans spawning, I guessed.
Very sad. For most of the year Toss was only really struggling against the best of the best in later stages of events. These last few months it feels like none of the top toss can even beat mid tier players in any important situation.
On November 21 2021 00:55 JJH777 wrote: Very sad. For most of the year Toss was only really struggling against the best of the best in later stages of events. These last few months it feels like none of the top toss can even beat mid tier players in any important situation.
Zest has consistently been inconsistent in this way. He'll sometimes be a prodigal genius and then other times have derpy performances where players far below him can knock him out.
Classic just came back from the military.
Wasn't a good crop of Protoss at this tournament, that was obvious the moment we saw who was going to be playing. If anything we should be outraged at just how few the number of really good Protoss players are actually out there at the moment.
Damn Zest looked bad result wise. Might catch up the games. Can’t wait for tomorrow though, hopefully Maru stays in top form and does not have too many cross server matches
On November 21 2021 01:18 Poopi wrote: Damn Zest looked bad result wise. Might catch up the games. Can’t wait for tomorrow though, hopefully Maru stays in top form and does not have too many cross server matches
Well, at this point, he doesn't have to face a Protoss, so that might help him.
On November 21 2021 01:18 Poopi wrote: Damn Zest looked bad result wise. Might catch up the games. Can’t wait for tomorrow though, hopefully Maru stays in top form and does not have too many cross server matches
Well, at this point, he doesn't have to face a Protoss, so that might help him.
Trap is not there so there was not much danger for his TvP, but Serral cross server could be a problem
On November 21 2021 00:55 JJH777 wrote: Very sad. For most of the year Toss was only really struggling against the best of the best in later stages of events. These last few months it feels like none of the top toss can even beat mid tier players in any important situation.
Parting dropping out of recent top SC2 competition aint helping neither, Zoun also lack stability when he can beat Dark/Rogue but lose to lower tier opponent. Lets just hope Classic and Hero can catch up quickly with the current gameplay and meta, if thats possible.
On November 21 2021 05:53 BeoMulf wrote: Well, Reynor said he wanted Rogue in the bracket stage so he could embrace the clown fiesta. He might just get that...
Reynor had better win rates against Rogue due to his multitasking speed was much better especially in cross server that even the mind game might not work either. It would end in pretty one-sided series just like their meeting in DH Masters.
Rather than that, I would bet on Maru to defeat Reynor.
should be a grand day of SC2, admittedly the ro8 could have been better but the upper side will probably be fantastic no matter what and I'm always in for a (likely, let's not take it for granted since both Elazer and HM look in great shape) Clem - Serral. See you tomorrow
The upper bracket is really stacked. Lower bracket seems like Serral vs. Clem, but Elazer can do wonders (all-ins ) in ZvZ and Heromarine can easily take down Clem.
usually for an all-korean match they use KR server for all-european match they use EU server for an EU vs KR match they switch between US west and US east servers
On November 21 2021 19:26 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: wtf Rogue?! you do know you can split fungal'ed muta since a few years now, don't you?!
fully deserved to lose there. Catz is probably happy for the way Dark played and Lambo is laughing his ass off.
Rogue was too reckless and too confident in his victory lol. Reminds me of his first game vs Scarlett in the semifinals of the IEM.
those things are usually in the muscle memory, you do them automatically without blinking. Quite a brainfart from Rogue. Probably because of the time zone.
EDIT: what a game5 lmao. full yolo. in 2020-2021 Dark won 4 BO5's vs Rogue and all four of those wins went to 5 games.
know the name of the player teams know which players are in the torunament dont talk half the game about who is worlds best who is all time best etc , thats repetitvely boring
On November 21 2021 22:14 HeroSandro wrote: Can anyone tell, why Serral does a lot better against Maru in the lategame than Reynor?
Hard to be precise, but it seems like Serral just knows what to do before Maru gets to the late game. He also takes each engagement much better than Reynor from the looks of it. Some Zerg pro should let us know by analysing the both of them.
Also, Maru plays completely differently when he has no ping compared to when he plays with ping. Look at his games vs Serral/Reynor, and his games against Dark/Rogue. Completely different playstyles. I don't think I've seen any other Terran that has such different playstyles.
Maru: "The maps are bad for Terran. I would like to see what other Terran does first." - proceeds to show completely new strats that no other Terran has done thus far...
On November 21 2021 22:26 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Maru playing very well. Reynor slipping up a bit these games too though.
I guess my prediction was right. Maru was top form again these months even in cross-server matches.
Yeah, it seems like he is over his injury and playing without worries anymore. It also feels like he's able to practise quite a bit compared to what he did.
These guys are not very good at interviewing... they need to come up with good questions beforehand, or at the very least, ask about the games that they just played!
On November 21 2021 23:08 buzz_bender wrote: These guys are not very good at interviewing... they need to come up with good questions beforehand, or at the very least, ask about the games that they just played!
I do agree that sometime it's ok to stick to the boring old interview, especially with players that aren't too willing to open up. I enjoy personnal question once in a while, but Maru didn't not seemed to be into it at all. I'd rather have him explain his build choice.
Still good job for trying, he's an hard man to interview.
On November 21 2021 23:08 buzz_bender wrote: These guys are not very good at interviewing... they need to come up with good questions beforehand, or at the very least, ask about the games that they just played!
I do agree that sometime it's ok to stick to the boring old interview, especially with players that aren't too willing to open up. I enjoy personnal question once in a while, but Maru didn't not seemed to be into it at all. I'd rather have him explain his build choice.
Still good job for trying, he's an hard man to interview.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I like those personal questions. But when it comes to these interviews, they are stumbling over their words, forget who they will be playing next etc, just basic things like that. There doesn't seem to be any discussions beforehand as to who will ask what, or who will take the lead etc. I love that they ask these quirky questions and all, but they just need to smooth out some stuff.
Also, why is it that it is not streamed on AlphaX's channel? Isn't AlphaX one of their sponsors or the one who organised it?
On November 21 2021 23:08 Nakajin wrote: Maru really back on form, he's balance whining after his victory just like it's 2018.
What did he say? I watched the games muted
Something along the line of: ''zerg is broken, I hate playing the matchup, I'm not looking forward to playing other zerg'' as the answer to the very first question he was asked.
On November 21 2021 23:08 Nakajin wrote: Maru really back on form, he's balance whining after his victory just like it's 2018.
What did he say? I watched the games muted
Something along the line of: ''zerg is broken, I hate playing the matchup, I'm not looking forward to playing other zerg'' as the answer to the very first question he was asked.
Makes sense, but terran has more tools now that ghosts don’t lose energy when their snipe don’t go off. However you still need to fight defensively using buildings etc to soak up damage.
On November 21 2021 23:08 Nakajin wrote: Maru really back on form, he's balance whining after his victory just like it's 2018.
What did he say? I watched the games muted
Something along the line of: ''zerg is broken, I hate playing the matchup, I'm not looking forward to playing other zerg'' as the answer to the very first question he was asked.
I think it ultimately come down to the current map pool, which are (slightly?) Zerg favored and such. Also, remember Maru had been saying how Protoss is broken for the last 2-3 years including when he won 3 of his 4 GSL finals by winning TvP.
Also, why is it that it is not streamed on AlphaX's channel? Isn't AlphaX one of their sponsors or the one who organised it?
SDC is a major sponsor for the event, so the quarterfinals are streamed on his channel. We will be moving over to the AlphaX Channel for the semis and finals
Also, why is it that it is not streamed on AlphaX's channel? Isn't AlphaX one of their sponsors or the one who organised it?
SDC is a major sponsor for the event, so the quarterfinals are streamed on his channel. We will be moving over to the AlphaX Channel for the semis and finals
Aah, okay. Just wondering about the arrangement. Thanks!
On November 22 2021 00:10 Poopi wrote: I kinda want Clem to win because he has a shot versus Serral, whereas HeroMarine would probably get destroyed yet another time against Serral
On the other hand Clem would have had no shot vs Maru while Serral very well could.
I think Serral is very happy with this, he has a real shot at winning the whole thing now. Having to beat Clem + Maru or Dark back to back would be difficult
It's unfortunate for Clem, but this virtually guarantees a good final. Serral v Maru and Serral v Dark are both excellent matchups, whereas the potential Maru v Clem would probably have been a stomp based on recent results.
On November 22 2021 01:32 Argonauta wrote: I didnt know I missed BC builds
I know right?
But for real between this tournament and the grand final against Rogue last week, Maru has seemingly an infinity of opening and follow up in his bag, kind of amazing that Sc2 pro can now have such a wide number of build without to many preparation.
Maru bringing all kinds of builds back. Seems like he wants to end games early. At this rate, if Dark or Maru wins, they will be playing the finals at like 4 or 5am their time... insane.
On November 22 2021 01:56 buzz_bender wrote: Maru bringing all kinds of builds back. Seems like he wants to end games early. At this rate, if Dark or Maru wins, they will be playing the finals at like 4 or 5am their time... insane.
yeah in this last 2 games maru is starting to have silly mistakes...
On November 22 2021 02:02 darklycid wrote: I don't understand dark, he plays such a insane ling bane and then decides to lose games with his roach styles :/
Yeah maru seems the less solid vs ling muta. Dark Reynor and Rogue have been able to take games with that style
Maru got to go through both Reynor and Dark, Serral breeze through Elazer and probably HM. Serral should be able to take this, just want a close series.
On November 22 2021 02:04 tigera6 wrote: Maru got to go through both Reynor and Dark, Serral breeze through Elazer and probably HM. Serral should be able to take this, just want a close series.
You just know that HeroMarine will beat Serral and be stuck in a tvt with Maru.
On November 22 2021 02:04 tigera6 wrote: Maru got to go through both Reynor and Dark, Serral breeze through Elazer and probably HM. Serral should be able to take this, just want a close series.
I just hoped Heromarine delivered. He should did better preparation in TvZ games after defeating Reynor long time ago.
The caster forgot that only Rogue defeated Maru in bo5 TvZ games before, but Maru managed to revenge in final ROG and final DH Masters. He NEVER lost to Serral though in any of Bo5 matches in 2021.
On November 22 2021 02:04 tigera6 wrote: Maru got to go through both Reynor and Dark, Serral breeze through Elazer and probably HM. Serral should be able to take this, just want a close series.
Plus Maru had to use so many builds already to defeat these top zergs :x, and he will be playing at 4-5am. If he even wins one or two games I will be impressed
On November 22 2021 02:04 tigera6 wrote: Maru got to go through both Reynor and Dark, Serral breeze through Elazer and probably HM. Serral should be able to take this, just want a close series.
Plus Maru had to use so many builds already to defeat these top zergs :x, and he will be playing at 4-5am. If he even wins one or two games I will be impressed
The players are used to it Actually I honestly wish Maru would fall asleep and missed the finals, to show how ridiculous this is.
On November 22 2021 02:04 tigera6 wrote: Maru got to go through both Reynor and Dark, Serral breeze through Elazer and probably HM. Serral should be able to take this, just want a close series.
Plus Maru had to use so many builds already to defeat these top zergs :x, and he will be playing at 4-5am. If he even wins one or two games I will be impressed
The players are used to it Actually I honestly wish Maru would fall asleep and missed the finals, to show how ridiculous this is.
The good thing is that he doesn't play super tournament monday, but thursday so he has time to get back to a decent sleep schedule / prepare a thing or two.
On November 22 2021 02:04 tigera6 wrote: Maru got to go through both Reynor and Dark, Serral breeze through Elazer and probably HM. Serral should be able to take this, just want a close series.
Plus Maru had to use so many builds already to defeat these top zergs :x, and he will be playing at 4-5am. If he even wins one or two games I will be impressed
The players are used to it Actually I honestly wish Maru would fall asleep and missed the finals, to show how ridiculous this is.
The good thing is that he doesn't play super tournament monday, but thursday so he has time to get back to a decent sleep schedule / prepare a thing or two.
yeah, it would sucks if it were Dark, whos going to play tomorrow. I guess Maru did him a favor and let him go to bed early enough.
On November 22 2021 02:10 swarminfestor wrote: The caster forgot that only Rogue defeated Maru in bo5 TvZ games before, but Maru managed to revenge in final ROG and final DH Masters. He NEVER lost to Serral though in any of Bo5 matches in 2021.
They played A SINGLE bo5, "never" seems a little inappropriate.
I just do not have any faith that HeroMarine has the APM or multitasking to beat Serral in the late game like this. Prove me wrong Gabe, but I've seen enough of your TvT to have serious doubts.
On November 22 2021 02:46 Vindicare605 wrote: I just do not have any faith that HeroMarine has the APM or multitasking to beat Serral in the late game like this. Prove me wrong Gabe, but I've seen enough of your TvT to have serious doubts.
I haven't seen much of SC2 lately, but I checked some Maru's games and he seems to keep more ghosts alive which may break HMs neck.
Damn HM was in a really good spot but Serral completely outplayed him in that lategame scenario. HM was just running around trying to put out fires until he was put in an allin situation.
Also Serrals Infestor play is sexy
tbf HM got quite a bit done after being put in that allin situation but it was not enough
Nothing against Gabe but really sad Clem lost we could have had a close TvZ. This is just a smackdown. It looks close at the start but the later the game goes the more apparent is that Gabe just does not have the skill to keep up with Serrals speed, army control and multi-tasking. Its a huge difference...
On November 22 2021 03:30 MarianoSC2 wrote: Nothing against Gabe but really sad Clem lost we could have had a close TvZ. This is just a smackdown. It looks close at the start but the later the game goes the more apparent is that Gabe just does not have the skill to keep up with Serrals speed, army control and multi-tasking. Its a huge difference...
Game 1 was close but after that it was kinda one sided, as I feared :/. At least Maru only plays at 4am because of the 3-0. Serral should have this given the conditions but maybe Maru has something up his sleeve
Serral vs Maru finals France still having a shot at being the chess european champion with Firou crossing the 2800 rating. A good evening in perspective !
On November 22 2021 03:36 Vindicare605 wrote: Ugh the one time we finally get a Maru/Serral final I have to leave to work.
Dont worry its going to be shit. Expect 4:1 or 4:2 Serral. His style is good against Maru and in these conditions, Maru just isnt that great in these long drawn out style tournies. It was quite apparent against Dark when he made a lot of mistakes he wouldnt have done in top condition.
It's crazy that Serral is in the finals of this by beating Byun, classic, elazer, and heromarine. He dodged all of the players who have beaten him this year until the final.
On November 22 2021 03:47 JJH777 wrote: It's crazy that Serral is in the finals of this by beating Byun, classic, elazer, and heromarine. He dodged all of the players who have beaten him this year until the final.
If you look at the player pool before the Ro8, and see who would Serral feel most comfortable playing against, it would be Elazer and HM, and Serral played both of them to get to the Final. This having DH Fall Global written all over its place, where Serral play a weaker bracket, and then easily crush the Final.
On November 22 2021 03:47 JJH777 wrote: It's crazy that Serral is in the finals of this by beating Byun, classic, elazer, and heromarine. He dodged all of the players who have beaten him this year until the final.
If you look at the player pool before the Ro8, and see who would Serral feel most comfortable playing against, it would be Elazer and HM, and Serral played both of them to get to the Final. This having DH Fall Global written all over its place, where Serral play a weaker bracket, and then easily crush the Final.
And even in Group Stage he dodged Reynor by making him lose to Byun!
On November 22 2021 03:41 deacon.frost wrote: In the end it's 3:40 AM at Korea, isn't it?
And they still haven't started the games. It'll be 4am by the time Maru starts playing Game 1. I'm fully expecting him to lose or make loads of mistakes.
These sorts of arrangements need to stop. It's patently unfair to a group of players and gives advantages to another. I can understand if it happens once or twice, but at this point, it's almost every single online tournament. They could and should have streamed 2 Ro8 at the same time, so that the Semis and Finals could start earlier.
And this is why clem losing to hm was such a big deal. Playing tvz with ping is ridiculous. Added to the fact that maru is playing at like 5am and there's no way he should be even competitive in the grand finals. A mirror match would have mitigated some of these issues
Serral did his homework, Maru die to this type of tech switch from Rogue a lot. Showing the ling, and made the Roach, then transition to Muta and finish with the Bane. Flawless execution.
On November 22 2021 05:13 tigera6 wrote: okay, from now on, whatever Maru complain about map pool is bullshit. He won the 2 most Zerg favored map is just ridiculous.
He took big advantages and it was still relatively close so he has a point? The mistakes from Serral against the liberators were a bit uncharacteristic, maybe HM tired him out enough Gogo Maru I still believe even though it’s late and pingy Would be interesting to know which server it is at each game
That anti Broodlord comp was quite ingenious. Blueflame Hellbats and liberator zones basically slaughter broodlings before they do too much damage while ghost snipes and thors smash the Broodlords. EMP on Infestor and/or Queens as well.
On November 22 2021 05:51 yoshi245 wrote: That anti Broodlord comp was quite ingenious. Blueflame Hellbats and liberator zones basically slaughter broodlings before they do too much damage while ghost snipes and thors smash the Broodlords. EMP on Infestor and/or Queens as well.
Maru's used this comp for quite a while vs BL/infestor. Also he uses tanks to try and zone the infestors out.
To be fair, if that was Rogue with the lead, Maru would be way dead. Serral was trying to be too pefect and getting tech up, Rogue would just roll in bane after bane with +2 base advantage and dry Maru out eventually.
On November 22 2021 05:53 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Has Serral ever thrown a game harder than the one we just watched?
I don't think it's fair to call that a throw as a lot of it was just on Maru being a god
Yeah but if Serral didnt throw away 40 banes to kill a turret and a planetary when he was light years ahead, he would probably have easily won. And he also had a horrible engage right before that.
From then on though, it was all Maru playing like an absolute monster.
On November 22 2021 05:55 tigera6 wrote: To be fair, if that was Rogue with the lead, Maru would be way dead. Serral was trying to be too pefect and getting tech up, Rogue would just roll in bane after bane with +2 base advantage and dry Maru out eventually.
I'll rewatch the game after the series but that seems rather accurate
On November 22 2021 05:53 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Has Serral ever thrown a game harder than the one we just watched?
I don't think it's fair to call that a throw as a lot of it was just on Maru being a god
Yeah but if Serral didnt throw away 40 banes to kill a turret and a planetary when he was light years ahead, he would probably have easily won. And he also had a horrible engage right before that.
From then on though, it was all Maru playing like an absolute monster.
every other Terran would have died to the attacks and when attacking there's always a bit of a risk as you don't know exactly what's waiting for you. Mistakes were definitely made but not enough to call it throw
On November 22 2021 05:55 tigera6 wrote: To be fair, if that was Rogue with the lead, Maru would be way dead. Serral was trying to be too pefect and getting tech up, Rogue would just roll in bane after bane with +2 base advantage and dry Maru out eventually.
Yeah the brute force method of Rogue seems better since Maru is so good at coming back
Surprised Serral hasn't gone back to the early roach aggression or fast roach max timing. Those roach builds have had the best success against Maru this series so far.
On November 22 2021 05:55 tigera6 wrote: To be fair, if that was Rogue with the lead, Maru would be way dead. Serral was trying to be too pefect and getting tech up, Rogue would just roll in bane after bane with +2 base advantage and dry Maru out eventually.
I agree, pretty sure I've seen games where exactly that happened
On November 22 2021 05:55 tigera6 wrote: To be fair, if that was Rogue with the lead, Maru would be way dead. Serral was trying to be too pefect and getting tech up, Rogue would just roll in bane after bane with +2 base advantage and dry Maru out eventually.
I agree, pretty sure I've seen games where exactly that happened
same, I think they played a game on that very map not too long ago where Rogue did exactly what tigera6 described. People with a better memory than mine will dig that up
Maru is exploiting the weakness of broods so well. Always running around denying bases. Terran outmining the Zerg is actually quite a big issue. Also has a lot of time to get the right army.
Serral would have to take super engages at this point to be able to win here
Serral is playing superbly this time. Not enough hellbats for Maru and I dont really see a point in fighting into that choke. Half the Thors do nothing there
Maru is back in GOAT form wtf… 6am I have no words, losing like that must be depressing for Serral. May he find a counter by Katowice, except there won’t be ping / timezone differences on there
I am actually sad we didnt get 7 games. Probably the best finals of all time? Incredible from both players, Maru in the end was just the superior player with way better late game army control. I hope they meet again offline at Katowice !
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
Zerg almost never beats Maru in lategame. Corrected it for you, youre welcome
Funny thing is that the Zerg which seems to be most troublesome for Maru in the lategame is Solar, he lost a bunch of these types of games against him this year and last year
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
Zerg almost never beats Maru in lategame. Corrected it for you, youre welcome
Funny thing is that the Zerg which seems to be most troublesome for Maru in the lategame is Solar, he lost a bunch of these types of games against him this year and last year
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it. Terran cost efficiency is just way stronger in a split map scenario.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
Zerg almost never beats Maru in lategame. Corrected it for you, youre welcome
Funny thing is that the Zerg which seems to be most troublesome for Maru in the lategame is Solar, he lost a bunch of these types of games against him this year and last year
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
On November 22 2021 06:38 yoshi245 wrote: Maru the GOAT. Serral did rely very heavily on Broodlords though that last game. Not sure if it was the best choice to stick with.
Serral probably thought he made some mistake with the BLord fight on Blackburn and was trying to get a better fight.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't say split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Those split map games happen only when Maru is playing anyways
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
Stop whining, I am zerg and one of the few who cheer for serral on this website but he lost fair and square. There are a lot of examples of zerg beating a T on late game actually. For now Maru' style is dominating but the top zerg should be able to find new apporach/playstyle to adapt to it.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Solar beat Maru several times during those scenarios though.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
You are dramatically underestimating the control requirement to win in those situations. No one else plays late game like Maru. Even Clem plays it very differently and it never really goes true split map.
You keep asking for examples to disprove your claim but why don't you instead offer examples that prove it? Ones that don't include Maru please.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Then say what you mean immediately and don't change the goal setting once you've been exposed, a 6 base vs 6 base situation with both players having big banks is definitely lategame.
Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
The thing is, Zerg almost NEVER let Terran to play lategame. And even in lategame, BLord-Infestor and Lurker-Viper are pretty great under the right control. The same thing with lategame PvZ Skytoss style, the one with the better control win, and Serral lategame has been among the greatest so far. And I hope Maru is not burning out through all these tournaments, and keep himself fresh for the more important tournament. Was dissapointed that he missed NeXT, but now it could be a good thing.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
Zerg almost never beats Maru in lategame. Corrected it for you, youre welcome
Funny thing is that the Zerg which seems to be most troublesome for Maru in the lategame is Solar, he lost a bunch of these types of games against him this year and last year
True, Zergs should study how Solar plays that
I wouldn't look too deeply into that, since Serral has beaten Maru even more recently in the late-game with the style. It's just always going to be close between top players. There's no magic solution to anything; just gotta play better on that day.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time
Against the top Zergs no other terran would even get to that point anyway so this is just theorycrafting
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
right. It's not like there are many Terrans in the world that can beat serral late game atm.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time
Against the top Zergs no other terran would even get to that point anyway so this is just theorycrafting
Thought so as well. But the other guy says Terran always wins in the late game, so there must be plenty of games he saw when several Terrans got to that stage and stomped the Zergs, right? Probably should start watching more SC2 again, would love to see those kind of games
On November 22 2021 07:17 allmotor1 wrote: what a sad state, TY and Innovation are gone, Maru is the last truly elite Terran left. I guess Cure and Clem will have to do.
The peak Byun and Gumiho too. We wont have them no longer since then.
On November 22 2021 06:50 tigera6 wrote: The thing is, Zerg almost NEVER let Terran to play lategame. And even in lategame, BLord-Infestor and Lurker-Viper are pretty great under the right control. The same thing with lategame PvZ Skytoss style, the one with the better control win, and Serral lategame has been among the greatest so far. And I hope Maru is not burning out through all these tournaments, and keep himself fresh for the more important tournament. Was dissapointed that he missed NeXT, but now it could be a good thing.
The thing is, I think Serral is the only Zerg to even touch Maru consistently in the late game (see DH Winter Season Finals). Maybe we can make an argument for Dark or Rogue, but their wins for the most are more mid-game victories
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't say split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Those split map games happen only when Maru is playing anyways
Not that I disagree with you, or think the matchup isnt super close to balanced, but the statement about even economy favoring Terran is literally the symptom of ultra lategame imbalance in the matchup. Terran trades more efficiently, which is fine balance-wise UNTIL the ultra late-game where the finite number of resources actually plays a role.
But to be clear, I don't think it's a requirement for every phase of a matchup to be balanced in order for the matchup as a whole to be balanced. I think they should be close to balanced, weighted by how often the games reach some phase. Since Zerg is ever so slightly favored up until the split map scenario, its not a huge deal that Terran has complete control in the ultra lategame.
So yeah, Serral is the best lategame/ultra late game player we've ever seen, but that just isn't a ZvT matchup strength and I think he needs to develop comfort with other styles to regularly beat Maru (clearly he can beat him).
All that said, most of the maps in the map pool are way too easy to split and I think thats a problem.
On November 22 2021 03:36 Vindicare605 wrote: Ugh the one time we finally get a Maru/Serral final I have to leave to work.
Dont worry its going to be shit. Expect 4:1 or 4:2 Serral. His style is good against Maru and in these conditions, Maru just isnt that great in these long drawn out style tournies. It was quite apparent against Dark when he made a lot of mistakes he wouldnt have done in top condition.
You were saying?
Games sounded like they were amazing. Congratulations Maru. Hands down without question the best Terran in the world right now, and very strong case for the strongest player in the world right now with back to back tournament wins.
Wow, what a performance by Maru! I thought he would make mistakes and get crushed, but every game was a slugfest and hard fought battle. I can't believe Maru himself said that he made some mistakes as I thought he had a flawless late-game.
His army compositions were so complex. There were widow mines, liberators, ghosts, tanks, missile turrets, and PFs. Then when the brood lords came, he changed to thors and blue-flame hell bats... I mean, that is as complex as it can get, and Maru controlled all of them so perfectly! He knew when to split off a small army to snipe a base or two or sacrifice a ghost to EMP the infestors. He knew when to disengage and fight in another area. Man, just all around near perfect late-game. He put on a TvZ lategame clinic today.
Maru is the GOAT, just looks like its some entity playing the race, unreal engagements and gamesense even at high ping. Its not like watching the very best of other races play where it looks like they're playing the standard script for the race, but doing it very well. Maru playing Terran looks like he has figured out another way to play the race, a way lesser players can't even try. Cure, TY and Clem could not turtle with ghosts this well, they're either not fast enough or clever enough to pull it off. It was clear this guy was something else when he held Effort's roach cheese against all odds in 2012. I hope Maru can keep playing at this peak to get his overdue World Champion title.
On November 22 2021 03:36 Vindicare605 wrote: Ugh the one time we finally get a Maru/Serral final I have to leave to work.
Dont worry its going to be shit. Expect 4:1 or 4:2 Serral. His style is good against Maru and in these conditions, Maru just isnt that great in these long drawn out style tournies. It was quite apparent against Dark when he made a lot of mistakes he wouldnt have done in top condition.
You were saying?
Games sounded like they were amazing. Congratulations Maru. Hands down without question the best Terran in the world right now, and very strong case for the strongest player in the world right now with back to back tournament wins.
I was looking for you. remember me who said maru 3-0'd serral when serral says that koreans dont give him so much of hard time lol.
that being said serral fought well and you gave accolades to the player who performed better. you have my respect.
Maru played incredible and deserved to win. Serral ran headfirst into a brick wall too many times today. Never utilizing his double nydus, no runbys. In game 6, Marus 3 o'clock base was an orbital with mass mules and NO defensive units. 10 lings would have decimated that in an instant. But Maru kept Serral busy in the lategame.
On November 22 2021 21:48 Harris1st wrote: Maru played incredible and deserved to win. Serral ran headfirst into a brick wall too many times today. Never utilizing his double nydus, no runbys. In game 6, Marus 3 o'clock base was an orbital with mass mules and NO defensive units. 10 lings would have decimated that in an instant. But Maru kept Serral busy in the lategame.
Serral was dead-on for a late game fight in that game from how I look at it. Its a very rare sight to see both side getting a huge bank of 8k Mineral + 5k Gas in TvZ without trading much before that. Its like Serral trying to make a statement that he can win lategame against Terran, going for the exact same BLord composition that he lost in previous game as well.
On November 22 2021 03:36 Vindicare605 wrote: Ugh the one time we finally get a Maru/Serral final I have to leave to work.
Dont worry its going to be shit. Expect 4:1 or 4:2 Serral. His style is good against Maru and in these conditions, Maru just isnt that great in these long drawn out style tournies. It was quite apparent against Dark when he made a lot of mistakes he wouldnt have done in top condition.
I can't help but notice a distinct lack of drama in this thread following this result. I can't say why that is, but it seems like with most end of tournament results there's a bunch of balance whining or argument about players status, but this one is one of those rare ones where just everyone is in agreement.
On November 22 2021 21:48 Harris1st wrote: Maru played incredible and deserved to win. Serral ran headfirst into a brick wall too many times today. Never utilizing his double nydus, no runbys. In game 6, Marus 3 o'clock base was an orbital with mass mules and NO defensive units. 10 lings would have decimated that in an instant. But Maru kept Serral busy in the lategame.
Serral was dead-on for a late game fight in that game from how I look at it. Its a very rare sight to see both side getting a huge bank of 8k Mineral + 5k Gas in TvZ without trading much before that. Its like Serral trying to make a statement that he can win lategame against Terran, going for the exact same BLord composition that he lost in previous game as well.
It reminded me of what happened against Innovation at Katowice and WESG in 2019.
On November 23 2021 01:56 Vindicare605 wrote: I can't help but notice a distinct lack of drama in this thread following this result. I can't say why that is, but it seems like with most end of tournament results there's a bunch of balance whining or argument about players status, but this one is one of those rare ones where just everyone is in agreement.
No conclusions, just an observation.
Well, remarking that people are always very enthusiastic about Maru would be pointless. I don't like Maru's statements and the Cult of Holy Mary, his overzealous followers(always so eager to find excuses before the matches are even played...), but I do like how he plays and I greatly respect his skill. You can't really object that Maru was amazing this tournament, that he won fair and square and that he would be the best candidate if we had to indicate who's the best player in the world right now; also, I liked the fact that defeated players weren't bashed in the LR this time, unlike it happened more than once in the past.
On November 23 2021 01:56 Vindicare605 wrote: I can't help but notice a distinct lack of drama in this thread following this result. I can't say why that is, but it seems like with most end of tournament results there's a bunch of balance whining or argument about players status, but this one is one of those rare ones where just everyone is in agreement.
No conclusions, just an observation.
We've gone soft in our old age, that or we scared all the foreigner fans away.
On November 23 2021 01:56 Vindicare605 wrote: I can't help but notice a distinct lack of drama in this thread following this result. I can't say why that is, but it seems like with most end of tournament results there's a bunch of balance whining or argument about players status, but this one is one of those rare ones where just everyone is in agreement.
No conclusions, just an observation.
What can ya say. Maru did beat the current WC, the former WCs and won the finals while watching a sunrise in Korea. (almost) It's hard to find issues with that. Then he rode into the sundownsunrise and fell asleep
So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
On November 23 2021 10:00 Pandain wrote: So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
On November 23 2021 10:00 Pandain wrote: So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
Definitely not undisputed best TvZ.
Lol I knew this was coming. OK let's argue who else in that top tier because I think Maru has top tier TvZ even you can't argue that. And we have pros like Scarlett who say he is the toughest opponent on ladder. I'd be very curious to hear who you think has a better TvZ and why.
On November 23 2021 10:00 Pandain wrote: So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
Definitely not undisputed best TvZ.
Clem has a pretty atrocious record vs Reynor in the last few months. Obviously it's only one match but Maru beat him convincingly yesterday. I think that alone puts Maru ahead. I'm also pretty sure Maru is ahead in map score vs Serral and Rogue as well relative to Clem in results from the last 3 months or so.
And also that Serral bashing you alluded to above only happens in your head. Saying he's not the goat or that he's overrated based on his results isn't bashing. If you want to see real player bashing look at Reddit after a high profile Maru loss.
On November 23 2021 10:00 Pandain wrote: So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
Definitely not undisputed best TvZ.
And also that Serral bashing you alluded to above only happens in your head. Saying he's not the goat or that he's overrated based on his results isn't bashing. If you want to see real player bashing look at Reddit after a high profile Maru loss.
Truth. Xainon has even admitted as much in twitch chat before. He's hyper defensive of Serral. I'll never understand why, but he is. It's like a religion. Serral HAS to be the goat. If he isn't there's something super wrong, when by no metric he is.
"Undisputed" means that there is no contest and Clem is a serious contender. Maru did not qualify for NEXT because of his TvZ losses just a couple of weeks ago, let me remind you of that. This is exactly the point, you guys love Mary so much that everything he does is magnified to the extreme: "Maru's TvT has been outstanding in 2021, he was surely better than TY" or "Maru just won a tournament by defeating all the top Zerg so his TvZ prowess must be unmatchable".
I am obviously not speaking of opinions for which Serral is not the GOAT(perfectly fine, I wouldn't say he is) or that he is overrated based on his results(ridicolously wrong and borderline blasphemous, still a "legit" opinion). I speak of actual player bashing which happened for years, such a frail memory you guys have.
Whatever I may have admitted on Twitch, Vindicare, I can assure it's not what you made me say here.
On November 23 2021 10:00 Pandain wrote: So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
Definitely not undisputed best TvZ.
And also that Serral bashing you alluded to above only happens in your head. Saying he's not the goat or that he's overrated based on his results isn't bashing. If you want to see real player bashing look at Reddit after a high profile Maru loss.
Truth. Xainon has even admitted as much in twitch chat before. He's hyper defensive of Serral. I'll never understand why, but he is. It's like a religion. Serral HAS to be the goat. If he isn't there's something super wrong, when by no metric he is.
It is not just in the twitch chat. The cult has spreading to Youtube chat yesterday as well even he is not competing. It is so annoying and unfair to the players competing, and the cult keep chanting 'that man' all over the place.
lulz, when you beat Reynor, Rogue, Dark and Serral in a close time frame and it's not enough to have the best TvZ Especially when you beat Reynor, Dark and Serral in a row xD BUT MAH CLEMQ!!@#!#!
The only reason Clem was even in the discussion about best TvZ was because he kept beating Serral and Reynor in low ping matches. However, there are other top zergs (namely Dark and Rogue or even DRG in ZvT), and he sure looked as mortal as Maru in cross server TvZ (check WTL). Plus now that Clem starts to struggle a bit more even against Serral and Reynor, while Maru dismantled them with unfavorable (vs Reynor with ping but decent hour) to very unfavorable (vs Serral with both ping and horrible hour, after a hard match vs Dark) conditions. Not only that but he also beat Serral 3-0 not that long ago as well as Rogue, and beat Rogue again recently ; albeit losing in group stages 1-2 to Serral (with less stakes but a loss is a loss).
So yeah, comes Katowice maybe he wouldn’t have the undisputed TvZ, but at the moment there is absolutely no doubt. 2nd best TvZ wouldn’t be enough to beat Serral cross server at 6am.
On November 23 2021 01:56 Vindicare605 wrote: I can't help but notice a distinct lack of drama in this thread following this result. I can't say why that is, but it seems like with most end of tournament results there's a bunch of balance whining or argument about players status, but this one is one of those rare ones where just everyone is in agreement.
No conclusions, just an observation.
The thread went downhill from there pretty fast
EDIT: Was hoping for a repeat in NEXT, then realized Maru lost to Solar, Rogue and Dark in the qualifiers. Oh the irony We have to wait till TSL 8 then
On November 23 2021 10:00 Pandain wrote: So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
Definitely not undisputed best TvZ.
And also that Serral bashing you alluded to above only happens in your head. Saying he's not the goat or that he's overrated based on his results isn't bashing. If you want to see real player bashing look at Reddit after a high profile Maru loss.
Truth. Xainon has even admitted as much in twitch chat before. He's hyper defensive of Serral. I'll never understand why, but he is. It's like a religion. Serral HAS to be the goat. If he isn't there's something super wrong, when by no metric he is.
It is not just in the twitch chat. The cult has spreading to Youtube chat yesterday as well even he is not competing. It is so annoying and unfair to the players competing, and the cult keep chanting 'that man' all over the place.
Which is exactly why I am staunchly voicing my opposition to this. I wouldnt be saying anything if these fools were not EVERYWHERE.
Xainon would have you believe that Serral is unjustly overly criticized. The reality is that the opposite is actually what is happening. People that don't even give a fuck about Starcraft are coming out saying shit like this and it's everywhere. And for no good justifiable reason at least not anymore not in 2021.
It's because of them I make the comparisons and observations that I do. Someone has to be the balancing factor here.
Also @Xainon. You can call me many things but I am not a liar. What you specifically told me was that "you tend to get defensive" when it comes to Serral. You specifically told me that you get drawn into arguments that you SHOULD avoid, because you are defensive of Serral.
I did not not say anything that quoted you that was contrary to what you told me. I did not misquote you. I did not make any claims that you said anything to me that you didn't.
Just for the record, let's set that straight. Whatever elaboration you made in this thread is what YOU decided to say, don't make it sound like I forced you to because I didn't.
On November 23 2021 18:36 Poopi wrote: The only reason Clem was even in the discussion about best TvZ was because he kept beating Serral and Reynor in low ping matches. However, there are other top zergs (namely Dark and Rogue or even DRG in ZvT), and he sure looked as mortal as Maru in cross server TvZ (check WTL). Plus now that Clem starts to struggle a bit more even against Serral and Reynor, while Maru dismantled them with unfavorable (vs Reynor with ping but decent hour) to very unfavorable (vs Serral with both ping and horrible hour, after a hard match vs Dark) conditions. Not only that but he also beat Serral 3-0 not that long ago as well as Rogue, and beat Rogue again recently ; albeit losing in group stages 1-2 to Serral (with less stakes but a loss is a loss).
So yeah, comes Katowice maybe he wouldn’t have the undisputed TvZ, but at the moment there is absolutely no doubt. 2nd best TvZ wouldn’t be enough to beat Serral cross server at 6am.
Yeah, Clem's TvZ skill was a bit shaky lately recently even he lost to Dark 3-0 in ESL Cup America in similar condition (I guess?). Clem's TvZ started losing momentum when he lost to Dark in TSL 7, ending his monstrous TvZ streak. Furthermore, he got beaten 0-3 by Rogue and other top tier Zerg players subsequently, strengthen the claims that his TvZ skill was a bit shaky since then.
For me, he was just having problems against Korean Zergs and he just couldn't approach the similar strategies to deal with them since their game plays were different.
Of course, Maru is the undisputed TvZ GOAT right now, able to beat every top-tier Zerg players in similar condition (Rogue, Dark) and unfavorable condition (Serral, Reynor). He manages to drag into the late game TvZ situations, something like Clem may not be able to prepare yet if he is in Maru shoes facing Serral instead. I think Clem will stuck into utilizing the sniping ability of Ghosts instead of transition into mech combos : blue flames Hellbats, Thors, Tanks and Ghosts at the back immediately to deal with the incoming Blords + Infestors+ Vipers + Queens.
On November 23 2021 13:03 Xain0n wrote: "Undisputed" means that there is no contest and Clem is a serious contender. Maru did not qualify for NEXT because of his TvZ losses just a couple of weeks ago, let me remind you of that. This is exactly the point, you guys love Mary so much that everything he does is magnified to the extreme: "Maru's TvT has been outstanding in 2021, he was surely better than TY" or "Maru just won a tournament by defeating all the top Zerg so his TvZ prowess must be unmatchable".
I am obviously not speaking of opinions for which Serral is not the GOAT(perfectly fine, I wouldn't say he is) or that he is overrated based on his results(ridicolously wrong and borderline blasphemous, still a "legit" opinion). I speak of actual player bashing which happened for years, such a frail memory you guys have.
Whatever I may have admitted on Twitch, Vindicare, I can assure it's not what you made me say here.
If even you as Serral fan say you wouldn't say he is the GOAT, doesn't that prove that he is overrated? Seeing that a lot of people and even casters call him that? Overrated doesn't mean bad, but when people give him more praise than he deserves (calling him the Goat) that is the definition of being overrated.
On November 23 2021 10:00 Pandain wrote: So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
Definitely not undisputed best TvZ.
And also that Serral bashing you alluded to above only happens in your head. Saying he's not the goat or that he's overrated based on his results isn't bashing. If you want to see real player bashing look at Reddit after a high profile Maru loss.
Truth. Xainon has even admitted as much in twitch chat before. He's hyper defensive of Serral. I'll never understand why, but he is. It's like a religion. Serral HAS to be the goat. If he isn't there's something super wrong, when by no metric he is.
It is not just in the twitch chat. The cult has spreading to Youtube chat yesterday as well even he is not competing. It is so annoying and unfair to the players competing, and the cult keep chanting 'that man' all over the place.
Which is exactly why I am staunchly voicing my opposition to this. I wouldnt be saying anything if these fools were not EVERYWHERE.
Xainon would have you believe that Serral is unjustly overly criticized. The reality is that the opposite is actually what is happening. People that don't even give a fuck about Starcraft are coming out saying shit like this and it's everywhere. And for no good justifiable reason at least not anymore not in 2021.
It's because of them I make the comparisons and observations that I do. Someone has to be the balancing factor here.
Also @Xainon. You can call me many things but I am not a liar. What you specifically told me was that "you tend to get defensive" when it comes to Serral. You specifically told me that you get drawn into arguments that you SHOULD avoid, because you are defensive of Serral.
I did not not say anything that quoted you that was contrary to what you told me. I did not misquote you. I did not make any claims that you said anything to me that you didn't.
Just for the record, let's set that straight. Whatever elaboration you made in this thread is what YOU decided to say, don't make it sound like I forced you to because I didn't.
You didn't? "Serral has to be the GOAT. If he isn't there's something super wrong when by no metric he is". That's something I have never said or even implied. However, it's not like Serral is some clearly overrated top 97 guy like someone here would make us believe; he's not the GOAT but he could easily look like one so no, he's not overrated.
As for the cult, don't make me laugh. The Cult of Holy Mary is the most pernicious one in Sc2 with people overflowing this forum in order to say how godlike he is when he takes one map off Percival or finding any kind of excuses when he gets swept out of tournaments in the ro8. Go figure what happens when Maru is in shape and convincingly looks like the best player in the world...every exaggeration is not only allowed but mandatory, I'm waiting for him to be called the best ZvP player in history.
On November 23 2021 20:30 Charoisaur wrote: If even you as Serral fan say you wouldn't say he is the GOAT, doesn't that prove that he is overrated?
I'd say he is exactly right rated. Not the GOAT but goat material and obviously the best non korean to ever touch this game.
He is a potential GOAT of LOTV, like in top5, but the top 2 is so far away from everyone else its going to be almost impossible for anyone to overcome.
On November 23 2021 10:00 Pandain wrote: So Maru has undisputed best TvT, undisputed best TvZ, and now Super Tournament is looking like there's a decent chance he will have to TvP his way to the championship there.
Definitely not undisputed best TvZ.
And also that Serral bashing you alluded to above only happens in your head. Saying he's not the goat or that he's overrated based on his results isn't bashing. If you want to see real player bashing look at Reddit after a high profile Maru loss.
Truth. Xainon has even admitted as much in twitch chat before. He's hyper defensive of Serral. I'll never understand why, but he is. It's like a religion. Serral HAS to be the goat. If he isn't there's something super wrong, when by no metric he is.
It is not just in the twitch chat. The cult has spreading to Youtube chat yesterday as well even he is not competing. It is so annoying and unfair to the players competing, and the cult keep chanting 'that man' all over the place.
Which is exactly why I am staunchly voicing my opposition to this. I wouldnt be saying anything if these fools were not EVERYWHERE.
Xainon would have you believe that Serral is unjustly overly criticized. The reality is that the opposite is actually what is happening. People that don't even give a fuck about Starcraft are coming out saying shit like this and it's everywhere. And for no good justifiable reason at least not anymore not in 2021.
It's because of them I make the comparisons and observations that I do. Someone has to be the balancing factor here.
Also @Xainon. You can call me many things but I am not a liar. What you specifically told me was that "you tend to get defensive" when it comes to Serral. You specifically told me that you get drawn into arguments that you SHOULD avoid, because you are defensive of Serral.
I did not not say anything that quoted you that was contrary to what you told me. I did not misquote you. I did not make any claims that you said anything to me that you didn't.
Just for the record, let's set that straight. Whatever elaboration you made in this thread is what YOU decided to say, don't make it sound like I forced you to because I didn't.
You didn't? "Serral has to be the GOAT. If he isn't there's something super wrong when by no metric he is". That's something I have never said or even implied. However, it's not like Serral is some clearly overrated top 97 guy like someone here would make us believe; he's not the GOAT but he could easily look like one so no, he's not overrated.
As for the cult, don't make me laugh. The Cult of Holy Mary is the most pernicious one in Sc2 with people overflowing this forum in order to say how godlike he is when he takes one map off Percival or finding any kind of excuses when he gets swept out of tournaments in the ro8. Go figure what happens when Maru is in shape and convincingly looks like the best player in the world...every exaggeration is not only allowed but mandatory, I'm waiting for him to be called the best ZvP player in history.
Difference. Difference. I only ever quoted you in what I said in between the quotation marks or what I specifically said that you said.
Whatever else is just my speculation. And to be fair they are usually fair statements about what I see across the internet because whenever I talk about how Serral fans are, it's usually actually worse than what I am describing.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/yhUdh7V.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/y3eydKg.png)
King of Battles/2
AlphaX 
IntoTheClan 
BelAir 
Indy 
Enki 
O'Gaming 
3DClan 
BSL 
Divinesia 
Cosmos
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/YxsAfHI.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/CQECHWf.png)
) in ZvZ and Heromarine can easily take down Clem.
