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Northern Ireland26255 Posts
On September 20 2021 22:15 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 20:19 Obamarauder wrote:
This just doesnt make any sense. The one time I decided to not watch maru vs serral he completely stomps serral I just skipped through the games but I don't believe "completely stomps" was involved. Seemed like even games where Maru slowly outtraded Serral with great mine hits (which Maru probably controlled manually?) and good positioning to gain an ever increasing advantage. But since you didn't see the games at all you probably know better how it went
If there’s such a thing as a tight 3-0, pretty much that series.
Maru was marginally better and suffocated Serral, who made a few errors in engagements and ate too many mine hits.
Especially given Serral decided to go toe to toe with Maru and didn’t really throw in anything tricky, so it was very mano o mano, and Maru was more man on the day. There’s many a 3-2 where the 2 were tricky builds and the 3 were complete stomps in macro games.
Outside of Clem, I’m not sure anyone else can do what Maru did to that level, Serral still probably wins against most other Terrans given the shape he was showing, but Maru was too good on the day.
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On September 21 2021 00:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 22:55 allmotor1 wrote:On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted. Literally not what was said but OK. Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak. That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway. Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too. Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still. Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting.
Hi Wombat,
I can read just fine, I just keep my posts short regarding Xainon.
Xainon literally wrote the below. I agree with your sentiment about Inno etc. But when Xainon expresses himself, he doesn't outright say it but he from his general "tone" it definitely sounds like he's constantly undermining the Korean players. For instance he wrote the below. That statement is just ridiculous. He just said Maru is probably the GOAT, but he's probably just saying that to cover his bias. When he makes statements like the below, it really shows his bias.
"Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
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Northern Ireland26255 Posts
On September 21 2021 01:27 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 00:05 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2021 22:55 allmotor1 wrote:On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted. Literally not what was said but OK. Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak. That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway. Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too. Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still. Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting. Hi Wombat, I can read just fine, I just keep my posts short regarding Xainon. Xainon literally wrote the below. I agree with your sentiment about Inno etc. But when Xainon expresses himself, he doesn't outright say it but he from his general "tone" it definitely sounds like he's constantly undermining the Korean players. For instance he wrote the below. That statement is just ridiculous. He just said Maru is probably the GOAT, but he's probably just saying that to cover his bias. When he makes statements like the below, it really shows his bias. "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
‘GOAT is not about streaks nor about dominance, it's about career achievements; in the last two years and half Maru won a Code S, a Super Tournament, a couple of online tournaments, reached the finals of the Code S twice and the semifinal of IEM Katowice twice(plus other decent runs). He was not far from Inno and Mvp, he should be ahead now; meanwhile, others have progressed more but should still be behind.’
No it’s his sentiment too, he literally said it right there.
I don’t actually agree with him entirely, my GOAT calculus is more about peak levels and periods of dominance than career accumulation. So guys like Rain and Mvp feature higher up in my rankings than in others due to their relatively short careers.
That aside he’s literally said in his opinion Maru is the GOAT, more than once and given his rationale. He still rates Serral very highly, as do I but I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t really rate Maru as the GOAT if he outright says that’s his opinion.
As a singular achievement 4 GSLs in a row or Serral’s 2018 are complete outliers, in either direction I don’t think one can compare bringing it to every series of a heavy prep tournament for 4 iterations with not having a bad series in 8 months.
They’re both totally ridiculous, preposterous achievements. At a stretch soO’s silver streak is a bit closer to Maru’s 4 in a row than anyone’s got to Serral’s year. Closer but still miles off.
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On September 21 2021 00:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 22:55 allmotor1 wrote:On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted. Literally not what was said but OK. Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak. That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway. Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too. Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still. Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting.
Maru's influence on both the game and his team before the 4 GSL wins was already good enough to anchor his name as a GOAT.
First, he fits the All Time part of GOAT (which for you all means greatest of ALL TIME). He has played since the FIRST GSL to now. so he is actually the oldest SC2 player (ironic, but you get it) as he has played for 11 years.
He won his first tournament in 2013 vs Rain in the OSL, 2015 in the SSL, and was the Mvp for Jin Air GW in many Proleague seasons before finally winning in the 2016 Proleague season. He won GSTL in 2012, and KSL that same year.
I don't know how anyone could objectively deny his GOAT status since he won 4 GSL's, sure he might have missed out on a Blizzcon or an IEM. But no one ever talks about sOs as a GOAT despite him winning 3 WC's so obviously the weight on them is lower.
Second of all, Mvp is not the GOAT. he was relevant for WOL and 1/3 of HOTS (and he wasn't doing that well in HOTS either), basically 1 and 1/3 expansion out of 3, and one of them has been going on for the last 6 years.
You can't call him the greatest of ALL TIME, just the Greatest of WOL.
How many more times do we have to go over this?! SC2 does not have a definitive GOAT, because no one who played from 2010 is still playing now at the highest level, except for Maru.
SC2 does not have a BW Flash or BW Jaedong kind of player. They all retire before the game is over, or are patched out by changes from the Balance team. (or have to go to the military if they're S.Korean)
No foreigner can qualify for GOAT Status since they have been largely smacked and destroyed throughout the history of SC2 by S.Koreans. The only era that they emerged was after a forced region lock + KeSPa collapsing.
Before the region lock at the start of 2016, S.Koreans have won 124/162 tournaments.
Neeb was the first one to do something to change the tide winning in KeSPa Cup, but you called that lucky bracket for him, and tbf he hasn't done much since 2017, okay, fine; Serral won GSL vs TW and Blizzcon, nice, but he was non-exist for all of WOL or HOTS so he can't qualify either.
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Northern Ireland26255 Posts
I’ve said numerous times I don’t think there’s a GOAT, the Mvp mention was just facetious.
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On September 21 2021 02:30 WombaT wrote:
I’ve said numerous times I don’t think there’s a GOAT, the Mvp mention was just facetious.
oohhh my mistake then, I couldn't tell from the context
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Northern Ireland26255 Posts
On September 21 2021 02:33 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 02:30 WombaT wrote:
I’ve said numerous times I don’t think there’s a GOAT, the Mvp mention was just facetious. oohhh my mistake then, I couldn't tell from the context
Mvp is of course the GOAT though :p
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GOAT contender should be like this : MVP = Inno = Maru > Rogue / Life > Serral / SoS / Zest / Dark / Soo
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France12909 Posts
On September 21 2021 03:04 swarminfestor wrote:
GOAT contender should be like this : MVP = Inno = Maru > Rogue / Life > Serral / SoS / Zest / Dark / Soo
Mvp isn’t worthy of being in the same tier as INno and Maru though. Maybe Rogue, since they dominated only in a particular era?
Since the 4 GSL wins it’s been Maru > INno, but INno could tie it winning either IEM/BlizzCon or another GSL, which he did not.
Rogue is an asterisk because he only started dominating once the scene was a bit less competitive and when zerg became super strong / OP (they became the best with hydras in 2017, 2018 almost as OP as 2019, which was the year where it culminated)
But I don’t get why people bring the GOAT debate after asus rog, it’s a rather small online tournament, Maru was one of the few favorites to win it and he did. But he can thank HeroMarine for kicking Trap out for example… even though Reynor might have beaten him.
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On September 21 2021 03:04 swarminfestor wrote:
GOAT contender should be like this : MVP = Inno = Maru > Rogue / Life > Serral / SoS / Zest / Dark / Soo
Including Life in any GOAT discussion/list automatically invalidates said discussion/list.
should be Maru / Inno > Rogue > Serral / Zest / sOs / Dark >>>>>> MC/Mvp
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On September 21 2021 04:08 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 03:04 swarminfestor wrote:
GOAT contender should be like this : MVP = Inno = Maru > Rogue / Life > Serral / SoS / Zest / Dark / Soo Including Life in any GOAT discussion/list automatically invalidates said discussion/list. should be Maru / Inno > Rogue > Serral / Zest / sOs / Dark >>>>>> MC/Mvp
don't forget Stats
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On September 21 2021 01:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 01:27 allmotor1 wrote:On September 21 2021 00:05 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2021 22:55 allmotor1 wrote:On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted. Literally not what was said but OK. Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak. That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway. Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too. Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still. Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting. Hi Wombat, I can read just fine, I just keep my posts short regarding Xainon. Xainon literally wrote the below. I agree with your sentiment about Inno etc. But when Xainon expresses himself, he doesn't outright say it but he from his general "tone" it definitely sounds like he's constantly undermining the Korean players. For instance he wrote the below. That statement is just ridiculous. He just said Maru is probably the GOAT, but he's probably just saying that to cover his bias. When he makes statements like the below, it really shows his bias. "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year." ‘GOAT is not about streaks nor about dominance, it's about career achievements; in the last two years and half Maru won a Code S, a Super Tournament, a couple of online tournaments, reached the finals of the Code S twice and the semifinal of IEM Katowice twice(plus other decent runs). He was not far from Inno and Mvp, he should be ahead now; meanwhile, others have progressed more but should still be behind.’No it’s his sentiment too, he literally said it right there. I don’t actually agree with him entirely, my GOAT calculus is more about peak levels and periods of dominance than career accumulation. So guys like Rain and Mvp feature higher up in my rankings than in others due to their relatively short careers. That aside he’s literally said in his opinion Maru is the GOAT, more than once and given his rationale. He still rates Serral very highly, as do I but I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t really rate Maru as the GOAT if he outright says that’s his opinion. As a singular achievement 4 GSLs in a row or Serral’s 2018 are complete outliers, in either direction I don’t think one can compare bringing it to every series of a heavy prep tournament for 4 iterations with not having a bad series in 8 months. They’re both totally ridiculous, preposterous achievements. At a stretch soO’s silver streak is a bit closer to Maru’s 4 in a row than anyone’s got to Serral’s year. Closer but still miles off.
Nobody is close to Serral's achievement because nobody was in his position of facing mainly weak opposition. During that 8 months he had like 20 series against top players which other players definitely came close to.
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On September 21 2021 01:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 01:27 allmotor1 wrote:On September 21 2021 00:05 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2021 22:55 allmotor1 wrote:On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted. Literally not what was said but OK. Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak. That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway. Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too. Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still. Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting. Hi Wombat, I can read just fine, I just keep my posts short regarding Xainon. Xainon literally wrote the below. I agree with your sentiment about Inno etc. But when Xainon expresses himself, he doesn't outright say it but he from his general "tone" it definitely sounds like he's constantly undermining the Korean players. For instance he wrote the below. That statement is just ridiculous. He just said Maru is probably the GOAT, but he's probably just saying that to cover his bias. When he makes statements like the below, it really shows his bias. "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year." ‘GOAT is not about streaks nor about dominance, it's about career achievements; in the last two years and half Maru won a Code S, a Super Tournament, a couple of online tournaments, reached the finals of the Code S twice and the semifinal of IEM Katowice twice(plus other decent runs). He was not far from Inno and Mvp, he should be ahead now; meanwhile, others have progressed more but should still be behind.’No it’s his sentiment too, he literally said it right there. I don’t actually agree with him entirely, my GOAT calculus is more about peak levels and periods of dominance than career accumulation. So guys like Rain and Mvp feature higher up in my rankings than in others due to their relatively short careers. That aside he’s literally said in his opinion Maru is the GOAT, more than once and given his rationale. He still rates Serral very highly, as do I but I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t really rate Maru as the GOAT if he outright says that’s his opinion. As a singular achievement 4 GSLs in a row or Serral’s 2018 are complete outliers, in either direction I don’t think one can compare bringing it to every series of a heavy prep tournament for 4 iterations with not having a bad series in 8 months. They’re both totally ridiculous, preposterous achievements. At a stretch soO’s silver streak is a bit closer to Maru’s 4 in a row than anyone’s got to Serral’s year. Closer but still miles off.
Hello Wombat!
Thanks for the comprehension, I have felt more than once that people weren't replying to what I had actually written but to what they imagined my opinions would have been.
My masterplan of falsely praising korean players while actually insulted them has been unveiled, what am I going to do now??
Be sure that I might not write things that I think but I certainly don't write things that I don't think.
I don't especially like Maru but I enjoy the way he plays most of the times; however, just as I said, I think that right now he is probably the best candidate if we had to choose the GOAT of Sc2.
I also want to point out that, when comparing Serral's 2018 to Maru's 2018, that the latter "only" won three Code S during the year; Serral's achievements will only look superior to me in that regard, it's not even worth discussing at this point.
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On September 21 2021 06:22 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 01:52 WombaT wrote:On September 21 2021 01:27 allmotor1 wrote:On September 21 2021 00:05 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2021 22:55 allmotor1 wrote:On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted. Literally not what was said but OK. Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak. That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway. Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too. Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still. Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting. Hi Wombat, I can read just fine, I just keep my posts short regarding Xainon. Xainon literally wrote the below. I agree with your sentiment about Inno etc. But when Xainon expresses himself, he doesn't outright say it but he from his general "tone" it definitely sounds like he's constantly undermining the Korean players. For instance he wrote the below. That statement is just ridiculous. He just said Maru is probably the GOAT, but he's probably just saying that to cover his bias. When he makes statements like the below, it really shows his bias. "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year." ‘GOAT is not about streaks nor about dominance, it's about career achievements; in the last two years and half Maru won a Code S, a Super Tournament, a couple of online tournaments, reached the finals of the Code S twice and the semifinal of IEM Katowice twice(plus other decent runs). He was not far from Inno and Mvp, he should be ahead now; meanwhile, others have progressed more but should still be behind.’No it’s his sentiment too, he literally said it right there. I don’t actually agree with him entirely, my GOAT calculus is more about peak levels and periods of dominance than career accumulation. So guys like Rain and Mvp feature higher up in my rankings than in others due to their relatively short careers. That aside he’s literally said in his opinion Maru is the GOAT, more than once and given his rationale. He still rates Serral very highly, as do I but I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t really rate Maru as the GOAT if he outright says that’s his opinion. As a singular achievement 4 GSLs in a row or Serral’s 2018 are complete outliers, in either direction I don’t think one can compare bringing it to every series of a heavy prep tournament for 4 iterations with not having a bad series in 8 months. They’re both totally ridiculous, preposterous achievements. At a stretch soO’s silver streak is a bit closer to Maru’s 4 in a row than anyone’s got to Serral’s year. Closer but still miles off. Hello Wombat! Thanks for the comprehension, I have felt more than once that people weren't replying to what I had actually written but to what they imagined my opinions would have been. My masterplan of falsely praising korean players while actually insulted them has been unveiled, what am I going to do now?? Be sure that I might not write things that I think but I certainly don't write things that I don't think. I don't especially like Maru but I enjoy the way he plays most of the times; however, just as I said, I think that right now he is probably the best candidate if we had to choose the GOAT of Sc2. I also want to point out that, when comparing Serral's 2018 to Maru's 2018, that the latter "only" won three Code S during the year; Serral's achievements will only look superior to me in that regard, it's not even worth discussing at this point.
Serral's 2018 accomplishments are easily replicable by most of the best Koreans if Serral didn't exist.
Substitute Serral for Maru/Stats/Rogue in all of those WCS's and you can't tell me that they wouldn't have won as Serral did. IMHO Serral winning 4 DHs is nothing special. But what Maru did was.
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On September 21 2021 05:38 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 04:08 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2021 03:04 swarminfestor wrote:
GOAT contender should be like this : MVP = Inno = Maru > Rogue / Life > Serral / SoS / Zest / Dark / Soo Including Life in any GOAT discussion/list automatically invalidates said discussion/list. should be Maru / Inno > Rogue > Serral / Zest / sOs / Dark >>>>>> MC/Mvp don't forget Stats
you're right, my bad
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Northern Ireland26255 Posts
On September 21 2021 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 01:52 WombaT wrote:On September 21 2021 01:27 allmotor1 wrote:On September 21 2021 00:05 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2021 22:55 allmotor1 wrote:On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted. Literally not what was said but OK. Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak. That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway. Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too. Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still. Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting. Hi Wombat, I can read just fine, I just keep my posts short regarding Xainon. Xainon literally wrote the below. I agree with your sentiment about Inno etc. But when Xainon expresses himself, he doesn't outright say it but he from his general "tone" it definitely sounds like he's constantly undermining the Korean players. For instance he wrote the below. That statement is just ridiculous. He just said Maru is probably the GOAT, but he's probably just saying that to cover his bias. When he makes statements like the below, it really shows his bias. "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year." ‘GOAT is not about streaks nor about dominance, it's about career achievements; in the last two years and half Maru won a Code S, a Super Tournament, a couple of online tournaments, reached the finals of the Code S twice and the semifinal of IEM Katowice twice(plus other decent runs). He was not far from Inno and Mvp, he should be ahead now; meanwhile, others have progressed more but should still be behind.’No it’s his sentiment too, he literally said it right there. I don’t actually agree with him entirely, my GOAT calculus is more about peak levels and periods of dominance than career accumulation. So guys like Rain and Mvp feature higher up in my rankings than in others due to their relatively short careers. That aside he’s literally said in his opinion Maru is the GOAT, more than once and given his rationale. He still rates Serral very highly, as do I but I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t really rate Maru as the GOAT if he outright says that’s his opinion. As a singular achievement 4 GSLs in a row or Serral’s 2018 are complete outliers, in either direction I don’t think one can compare bringing it to every series of a heavy prep tournament for 4 iterations with not having a bad series in 8 months. They’re both totally ridiculous, preposterous achievements. At a stretch soO’s silver streak is a bit closer to Maru’s 4 in a row than anyone’s got to Serral’s year. Closer but still miles off. Nobody is close to Serral's achievement because nobody was in his position of facing mainly weak opposition. During that 8 months he had like 20 series against top players which other players definitely came close to.
Which is why it’s relatively unique. No foreigner has been as dominant over the foreign scene, and no foreigner has been able to rise to the Korean challenge quite like that.
Even Stephano at his peak never really got to the level of never losing to foreigners ever, neither did he consistently beat Korean opposition.
Nobody’s really managed it before or since so it counts for something
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Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
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Serral = foreigner GOAT ; Maru = overall GOAT ; MVP = nostalgia GOAT. Are we happy now?
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On September 20 2021 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I have to agree with XainoN here (what??) that Zerg was not OP in 2018. Serral really was the only Zerg doing that well, GSL had not a single Zerg in the finals all year and in the foreign scene Protoss players were Serral's main opposition up to the last season where Reynor's rise began.
By no metric was Zerg OP that year, the 2019 Zerg dominance happened after the ridicolous Infestor and Nydus buffs.
Anyways Serral wasn't unbeatable like it was already said, he just got good matchups for the 2 tournaments he won vs opposition that didn't have Has in the finals.
8 months unbeaten sounds impressive when you don't consider he faced 90% cannonfodder during that period.
I give Serral one thing and that is that other than peak Inno no player has looked this scary in standard macro games, where everyone knew what he was going to do but still lost to it.
Maru and Rogue are better but rely a lot on trickery.
Zerg was not fine in 2018. Prize money discrepancy between races in 2018 was the biggest ever (until it was beaten in 2019) and that was not purely due to Serral. Just because he wasn't playing them in finals doesn't mean they wouldn't have won the events. Serral eliminated Zergs from the bracket stages of tournaments all year long. He eliminated Dark twice and Rogue once in Blizzcon and GSL vs the world. He eliminated Scarlett (x2), Reynor(x2), Lambo(x2) and other Zergs from various wcs seasons when they were in playoffs. Scarlett won an IEM that year there's no reason she couldn't have won a WCS if she wasn't getting eliminated by Serral and skipping events. Zerg may not have had the historic prize money difference without Serral but they still would have easily won the most money in 2018 with or without him. With different brackets there would have been ZvZ finals that year.
Also look at the GSL 2018 season 2 list of players and group stage. I know all the Zergs lost but come on there's no way a GSL lineup looks like that in a balanced meta.
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EPT
