On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable.
Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted.
Literally not what was said but OK.
Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak.
That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway.
Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too.
Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still.
Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting.
Hi Wombat, I can read just fine, I just keep my posts short regarding Xainon.
Xainon literally wrote the below. I agree with your sentiment about Inno etc. But when Xainon expresses himself, he doesn't outright say it but he from his general "tone" it definitely sounds like he's constantly undermining the Korean players. For instance he wrote the below. That statement is just ridiculous. He just said Maru is probably the GOAT, but he's probably just saying that to cover his bias. When he makes statements like the below, it really shows his bias.
"Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
‘GOAT is not about streaks nor about dominance, it's about career achievements; in the last two years and half Maru won a Code S, a Super Tournament, a couple of online tournaments, reached the finals of the Code S twice and the semifinal of IEM Katowice twice(plus other decent runs). He was not far from Inno and Mvp, he should be ahead now; meanwhile, others have progressed more but should still be behind.’
No it’s his sentiment too, he literally said it right there.
I don’t actually agree with him entirely, my GOAT calculus is more about peak levels and periods of dominance than career accumulation. So guys like Rain and Mvp feature higher up in my rankings than in others due to their relatively short careers.
That aside he’s literally said in his opinion Maru is the GOAT, more than once and given his rationale. He still rates Serral very highly, as do I but I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t really rate Maru as the GOAT if he outright says that’s his opinion.
As a singular achievement 4 GSLs in a row or Serral’s 2018 are complete outliers, in either direction I don’t think one can compare bringing it to every series of a heavy prep tournament for 4 iterations with not having a bad series in 8 months.
They’re both totally ridiculous, preposterous achievements. At a stretch soO’s silver streak is a bit closer to Maru’s 4 in a row than anyone’s got to Serral’s year. Closer but still miles off.
Nobody is close to Serral's achievement because nobody was in his position of facing mainly weak opposition. During that 8 months he had like 20 series against top players which other players definitely came close to.
Which is why it’s relatively unique. No foreigner has been as dominant over the foreign scene, and no foreigner has been able to rise to the Korean challenge quite like that.
Even Stephano at his peak never really got to the level of never losing to foreigners ever, neither did he consistently beat Korean opposition.
Nobody’s really managed it before or since so it counts for something
Actually Neeb was similarly dominant over the foreign scene
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
I don't think Serral is a real contender for the time being. His achievements are exceptional (especially for a foreigner) but imo obviously below Maru and Rogue's. I guess you could make a case for both of the latters ; Maru lacks a world championship while Rogue's achievements are tainted by a late bloom that very often coincided with Z being obviously strong. I tend to lean towards Rogue for the time being since his resume is more complete (and because, let's admit it, I'm quite a fan of the disgusting way he can make his opponents look so helpless when he's on fire), but with Maru being a lot younger than Rogue and still looking sharp as hell, unless Serral can ride other 2018-like streaks of dominance, I don't see how this unofficial title can escape Maru by the time his career ends. (and there's the case of INno, who has a lot going for him as well, but things going against him too. He had incredible streaks and incredible slumps. I tend to value WCs highly so I guess that's why I would still have him below Rogue)
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
Rogue is more accomplished than Inno at this point imo. He's on his way to his 4th Code S and he's a 3 time world champion.
And Life didn't cheat in any game he ever played. He's not a maphacker, he threw games for money. Unless you're trying to imply he goaded all his opponents into matchfixing against him so he could win tournaments (which btw would leave us with a lot more guilty parties), that's the complete opposite.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
Yeah, those were two of his three offline BOX series losses in the entire year. What a noob amirite.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
You dont understand anything. Those results were before his ascension ! We only count Serrals results since he started winning everything.
Anyway I still think including any foreigner in a serious GOAT discussion is pointless. Serral is for sure in top20 right now, and he might get close to top10 one day, but playing now basically 1 big tournament per year, he cant seriously contend for this title. He will possibly duke it out with Reynor for the foreigner GOAT, where Reynor still has a lot of work to do to catch up.
Maru and Rogue are the only 2 players who can reach the title of overall SC2 best player. It all depends on how long the Korean scene will exist and how many big tournaments can Rogue win until he goes to military next year.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
You dont understand anything. Those results were before his ascension ! We only count Serrals results since he started winning everything.
What are you on about. The dude literally lost 3 series offline in a year. Can't get much more dominant than that :D
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
Rogue is more accomplished than Inno at this point imo. He's on his way to his 4th Code S and he's a 3 time world champion.
And Life didn't cheat in any game he ever played. He's not a maphacker, he threw games for money. Unless you're trying to imply he goaded all his opponents into matchfixing against him so he could win tournaments (which btw would leave us with a lot more guilty parties), that's the complete opposite.
Inno has more longevity. Pretty futile discussion if you ask me. Point is, Maru has more of both
Life: He got caught once. That doens't mean he did it once. Which means for me personally, every game he played is tainted
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
You dont understand anything. Those results were before his ascension ! We only count Serrals results since he started winning everything.
What are you on about. The dude literally lost 3 series offline in a year. Can't get much more dominant than that :D
I am on about that in 2018, Serral was clearly the best and most dominant player. But if we look at serious tournaments, then his results are:
IEM WC - RO4 WESG - RO4 GSL vs World - Winner Blizzcon - Winner
Maybe we could also count IEM PyeongChang - RO8 HSC - Winner
Its super impressive, yes, but its not like he was unbeatable winning absolutely everything. There is no way we can tell he would achieve this in GSL that year as Maru did, becaue those are tournaments with top opposition. He won 3 from 6. On the other hand its much higher probability that the top Koreans would have stopped him in some of those WCS foreigner fests, its just statistics.
My remark was mocking Xanion, who constantly stated we should disregard Serrals performance at IEM WC or WESG that year because that was before his ascension, which is completely uterly ridiculous since they are a big part of the season and especially IEM WC is one of the biggest tournaments, which Serral did not manage to win even in his best form. So if you count it like you should, his year was ultra impressive, but his aura of absolute invincibility and predicting him doing the same streak he did even with playing GSL is just wishful thinking of fanboys.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
You dont understand anything. Those results were before his ascension ! We only count Serrals results since he started winning everything.
What are you on about. The dude literally lost 3 series offline in a year. Can't get much more dominant than that :D
he said Serral would have won every GSL that year since he was unbeatable. I brought up those losses to show that at the beginning of the year (the time of the first GSL season) he had two bad losses and thus probably wouldn't have won Code S. Not that hard to understand
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
Maru lost a bunch that year. Clearly one loss trumps 3 GSL wins. What a Noob this Maro guy.
Anyway. GOAT is a very personal and subjective thing and yet pretty much everyone says if somebody deserves it, it's Maru. Congratz Maru!
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
Maru lost a bunch that year. Clearly one loss trumps 3 GSL wins. What a Noob this Maro guy
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
Maru lost a bunch that year. Clearly one loss trumps 3 GSL wins. What a Noob this Maro guy
read what I wrote above and use your brain.
Clearly whatever you wrote above wasn't there at the time I posted. Use your brain and learn some manners...
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
Maru lost a bunch that year. Clearly one loss trumps 3 GSL wins. What a Noob this Maro guy
read what I wrote above and use your brain.
Clearly whatever you wrote above wasn't there at the time I posted. Use your brain and learn some manners...
If you used your brain you'd have realized I didn't bring up Serral's losses to say Maru>Serral but to show that your statement "Serral would've won every GSL since he was unbeatable" is objectively false because he wasn't unbeatable at all during the time of the first GSL.
On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable.
Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted.
Literally not what was said but OK.
Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak.
That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway.
Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too.
Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still.
Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting.
Hi Wombat, I can read just fine, I just keep my posts short regarding Xainon.
Xainon literally wrote the below. I agree with your sentiment about Inno etc. But when Xainon expresses himself, he doesn't outright say it but he from his general "tone" it definitely sounds like he's constantly undermining the Korean players. For instance he wrote the below. That statement is just ridiculous. He just said Maru is probably the GOAT, but he's probably just saying that to cover his bias. When he makes statements like the below, it really shows his bias.
"Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
‘GOAT is not about streaks nor about dominance, it's about career achievements; in the last two years and half Maru won a Code S, a Super Tournament, a couple of online tournaments, reached the finals of the Code S twice and the semifinal of IEM Katowice twice(plus other decent runs). He was not far from Inno and Mvp, he should be ahead now; meanwhile, others have progressed more but should still be behind.’
No it’s his sentiment too, he literally said it right there.
I don’t actually agree with him entirely, my GOAT calculus is more about peak levels and periods of dominance than career accumulation. So guys like Rain and Mvp feature higher up in my rankings than in others due to their relatively short careers.
That aside he’s literally said in his opinion Maru is the GOAT, more than once and given his rationale. He still rates Serral very highly, as do I but I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t really rate Maru as the GOAT if he outright says that’s his opinion.
As a singular achievement 4 GSLs in a row or Serral’s 2018 are complete outliers, in either direction I don’t think one can compare bringing it to every series of a heavy prep tournament for 4 iterations with not having a bad series in 8 months.
They’re both totally ridiculous, preposterous achievements. At a stretch soO’s silver streak is a bit closer to Maru’s 4 in a row than anyone’s got to Serral’s year. Closer but still miles off.
Nobody is close to Serral's achievement because nobody was in his position of facing mainly weak opposition. During that 8 months he had like 20 series against top players which other players definitely came close to.
Which is why it’s relatively unique. No foreigner has been as dominant over the foreign scene, and no foreigner has been able to rise to the Korean challenge quite like that.
Even Stephano at his peak never really got to the level of never losing to foreigners ever, neither did he consistently beat Korean opposition.
Nobody’s really managed it before or since so it counts for something
Actually Neeb was similarly dominant over the foreign scene
Close to but not quite as dominant iirc? Neeb’s peak is a bit under-mentioned so I appreciate the mention.
Serral stretched his consistency out quite a bit longer too, he went from not losing to anyone to trading 50/50 with Reynor in finals.
Anyway that aside, some of this stuff is all pretty crazy. For the first good few years of the game I think it was a view commonly held that SC2 was too volatile a game for these levels of consistency to be possible, so it’s pretty bloody impressive what some of these players have managed.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
Rogue is more accomplished than Inno at this point imo. He's on his way to his 4th Code S and he's a 3 time world champion.
And Life didn't cheat in any game he ever played. He's not a maphacker, he threw games for money. Unless you're trying to imply he goaded all his opponents into matchfixing against him so he could win tournaments (which btw would leave us with a lot more guilty parties), that's the complete opposite.
Inno has more longevity. Pretty futile discussion if you ask me. Point is, Maru has more of both
Life: He got caught once. That doens't mean he did it once. Which means for me personally, every game he played is tainted
Sure, put scrutiny on every game Life ever lost. But think about what you're implying by looking at the games Life won this way.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
You dont understand anything. Those results were before his ascension ! We only count Serrals results since he started winning everything.
What are you on about. The dude literally lost 3 series offline in a year. Can't get much more dominant than that :D
he said Serral would have won every GSL that year since he was unbeatable. I brought up those losses to show that at the beginning of the year (the time of the first GSL season) he had two bad losses and thus probably wouldn't have won Code S. Not that hard to understand
Yeah that's actually my bad. I somehow misread what the earlier guy wrote and went full moron. I blame it on morning.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
Rogue is more accomplished than Inno at this point imo. He's on his way to his 4th Code S and he's a 3 time world champion.
And Life didn't cheat in any game he ever played. He's not a maphacker, he threw games for money. Unless you're trying to imply he goaded all his opponents into matchfixing against him so he could win tournaments (which btw would leave us with a lot more guilty parties), that's the complete opposite.
Inno has more longevity. Pretty futile discussion if you ask me. Point is, Maru has more of both
Life: He got caught once. That doens't mean he did it once. Which means for me personally, every game he played is tainted
What you're stating doesn't make any sense, do you realyze Life threw his game ? Not the other way around, all his wins are legit, you can suspect him as much as you want but in that case, Life threw other games, that's all.
EPT
