On September 22 2021 02:46 Xain0n wrote: It's pointless, unless it's a futile attempt to bait for which I'd gladly recommend you to to stick to Twitch Chat.
I perfectly understand that WCS events were easier than Code S events, it's you that you don't, don't want or are incapable of understanding that winning al four of them was not as easy as you think. Even if you take out Serral, european's win rate in ZvZ in 2018/2019 were pretty close to 50% against koreans, Scarlett won IEM Pyeonchang over sOs earlier in 2018 and Neeb went as far as ro4 in Code S S3(check who was the one who defeat, Reynor was starting to rise at the end of year. Any of those korean would have been the favorite to win a WCS event but I doubt that any of them would have effectively won all of them(bar maybe Maru since he was almost as good as Serral that year and started peaking earlier).
Oh yes, Serral was head and shoulders above the average korean pro and it's not the bias who speaks, it's numbers like an 80% wr against koreans during the whole year and a 20-0 offline boX streak against them(mainly top players). Not to mention the detail that he won GSL vs the World, BlizzCon and HSC against korean opposition. They had months to prepare for Serral, if they could have stopped him they certainly would have at BlizzCon. Go watch Rogue's pre match interview and his expression towards the end of g4 of the semifinal to understand what was Serral at his peak.
I don't disrespect korean pros, probably not mindlessly revering the sons of the holy land of Starcraft hurts your sensibilty and you perceive my statements as blasphemous. Everyone knows there are koreans among my favorite players, yet you have the impression that I secretly undermine them. It's also known to everyone that I generally prefer supporting foreigners but that does not mean that I disrespect korean players.
You are not named Mariano, are you? Also, which pedestal? Right now, Serral is just a top player among others. In the past, he was first the best player in the world by far and then a primus inter pares. Does this seem controversial to you?
On September 22 2021 02:09 QOGQOG wrote: Serral might have won a Code S, though with how predictable he was and still is, I don't think his chances in a tournament with long prep time are as good as you think. But he chose not to participate.
And yes, any top Korean would be the huge favorite for WCS in 2018. Serral would be literally the only credible opposition at the time. But they were banned from playing in it.
For me, that's what makes the difference. Serral had so much handed to him: the region lock, the meta favoring Zerg just always going defensive macro, and the balance at the time. He managed a crazy and impressive run based off that, one that shows incredible talent, but once other real contenders started showing up in Europe and once Rogue and Dark started winning everything and therefore Zerg finally got patched, he couldn't keep it going.
I think Serral is now what he has always been: a very good player with a shot in any tournament he enters, but not the ascended being some of his fans make him out to be.
When Serral was at his best, Zerg were doing very poorly in Code S and Zerg as a race was not overpowered, despite being strong; Zerg became overpowered in 2019 after certain poorly designed nerf to Protoss and Serral kept winning more than anyone that year, even if he wasn't dominating Sc2 anymore. Serral still had a ro8 as lowest placement during two whole years and even after COVID when he declined further, he won three titles and lost five finals; he also just recently came back to winning after ten months and it looked like he hadn't triumphed in ages. Serral's current win rates and tournament runs are not comparable with those he had when he was at his apex, he definitely is not "what he has always been".
I argued one main point and it was due to you saying this. (few pages ago) "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
That statement is preposterous. You admitted the GSL's were harder in 2018 and any of those top koreans would have been favored to win any of the WCS tournaments. Yet you say Serral's WCS wins are more impressive than Maru's back to back GSL wins.
Maru's GSL wins > Serrals WCS run, the competition in those GSL's was much harder then those in WCS.
And dude I barely post here, please don't project. You say mindlessly worshipping korean pros, look in the mirror, you do that with Serral clearly. And you say this is beaten down etc, yet here you are.
And you tell me to stick to twitch chat, ironic since I see you chatting away in every event, when you claim you haven't been following.
If you could read you would have realized I said I was barely following the scene lately, as opposed to what I previously used to do; you would have also realized that I had clarified I was speaking to the Code S that actually took place in 2018, not about every Code S played throughout Sc2's history. I did also say that I doubt that any korean other than Maru could have won four consecutive WCS. Also, and most important of all, you seem to be oblivious to Serral's international achievements in 2018 which are the ones giving him the highest credit.
"Please don't project" while you accused me of being biased and undermining korean pros with no apparent reason; I still can't decide if you are for real or not, and if you are, well...
yea you write a ton without saying much. you're bringing up points that weren't what I was debating. I only brought up Marus 2018 GSL wins and you are bringing up all the Code S's in history. I never brought up all the code S tournaments throughout history nor did I say you did. We were simply comparing Marus 2018 GSL runs vs Serrals wcs runs. You're not making any sense.
if you are referring to your original quote pertaining to all the code S gsls, I always took it as you meaning the code S's in 2018.
If you say so. It's clear that Maru's Code S run>Serral's WCS run in 2018, I have actually never said the opposite. I have instead always said that Serral's overall achievements in 2018>Maru's overall achievements in 2018.
Yes, you were bringing up points I never brought up. You bring up Serral's entire 2018 run, well Maru won more than just GSL's in 2018, like an IEM and WES. Anyways, agree to disagree.
On September 22 2021 05:52 WombaT wrote: If 2018 Serral is playing all three GSLs he’s not picking up at least one?
Hey we’ll never know, seems unlikely to me. Equally saying he’ll stomp all three seasons is a little stretch. Possible but I wouldn’t bet on it either.
Ultimately Korea’s top players hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I’m unsure why fans with a particular bias to the Korean scene think they know better than the top Korean pros.
You're arguing against things which have never been said, Nobody here doesn't hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I wonder where this comes from...
Saying Serral isn't the GOAT = Saying Serral is a bad player apparently on this forum
On September 22 2021 05:52 WombaT wrote: If 2018 Serral is playing all three GSLs he’s not picking up at least one?
Hey we’ll never know, seems unlikely to me. Equally saying he’ll stomp all three seasons is a little stretch. Possible but I wouldn’t bet on it either.
Ultimately Korea’s top players hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I’m unsure why fans with a particular bias to the Korean scene think they know better than the top Korean pros.
You're arguing against things which have never been said, Nobody here doesn't hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I wonder where this comes from...
Saying Serral isn't the GOAT = Saying Serral is a bad player apparently on this forum
Come on man let’s not make out folks don’t go way beyond ‘Serral isn’t the goat’, incidentally also my position. Arguably the best single year, with stiff competition.
My point was merely that dedicated Serral fans and anti-fans go too far in either direction. As per what I said, I don’t think Serral sweeps GSL in 2018, nor do I think he isn’t competitive in that tournament.
Everyone else in threads gets caught in this irritating pissing contest between these cohorts.
Some is a reaction to an OTT hype train, I mean I respect most casters but when they’re referring to Serral as the GOAT every cast it’s ridiculous. Utterly ludicrous. 2018 form was probably never going to be sustainable, but he’d have had to have kept close to it from 2019 to now and then, yeah maybe.
Some is a reaction to the folks who take their love of the Korean scene into new and strange directions to downplay how good Serral is in a way they just 100% wouldn’t be doing if he was an emerging Korean talent.
On September 22 2021 05:52 WombaT wrote: If 2018 Serral is playing all three GSLs he’s not picking up at least one?
Hey we’ll never know, seems unlikely to me. Equally saying he’ll stomp all three seasons is a little stretch. Possible but I wouldn’t bet on it either.
Ultimately Korea’s top players hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I’m unsure why fans with a particular bias to the Korean scene think they know better than the top Korean pros.
You're arguing against things which have never been said, Nobody here doesn't hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I wonder where this comes from...
Saying Serral isn't the GOAT = Saying Serral is a bad player apparently on this forum
Come on man let’s not make out folks don’t go way beyond ‘Serral isn’t the goat’, incidentally also my position. Arguably the best single year, with stiff competition.
My point was merely that dedicated Serral fans and anti-fans go too far in either direction. As per what I said, I don’t think Serral sweeps GSL in 2018, nor do I think he isn’t competitive in that tournament.
Everyone else in threads gets caught in this irritating pissing contest between these cohorts.
Some is a reaction to an OTT hype train, I mean I respect most casters but when they’re referring to Serral as the GOAT every cast it’s ridiculous. Utterly ludicrous. 2018 form was probably never going to be sustainable, but he’d have had to have kept close to it from 2019 to now and then, yeah maybe.
Some is a reaction to the folks who take their love of the Korean scene into new and strange directions to downplay how good Serral is in a way they just 100% wouldn’t be doing if he was an emerging Korean talent.
the things that get argued are either: is Serral a Goat contender / was his 2018 better than Maru's / did he have the highest peak of any player? That we don't hold him in very high regard for his skill is just not true, everyone agrees that he's one of the best players in the world - his fans just feel triggered when the above points are argued against despite that being totally legitimate because I don't think you can 100% say those are true. and the not-Serral-fans get triggered when the above points are stated like a fact.
Some is a reaction to the folks who take their love of the Korean scene into new and strange directions to downplay how good Serral is in a way they just 100% wouldn’t be doing if he was an emerging Korean talent.
This is also not true, remember TaeJa? we had similarly heated discussions about where he would rank in a Goat list back in the day. It just depends on how annoying the fanboys are
The thing with taeja is that he is the best teamleague player ever, a factor which oftentimes gets overlooked in these discussions as if teamleagues weren't a big factor in sc2's history.
On September 23 2021 01:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: The thing with taeja is that he is the best teamleague player ever, a factor which oftentimes gets overlooked in these discussions as if teamleagues weren't a big factor in sc2's history.
Inno would like a word, but yeah. Taeja in full flow was glorious, almost pulling off the double all kill of IM was one of the great SC2 experiences for me. Just sucks that injuries took such a toll.
@Chairosaur, fair points. I’m not really thinking before I’m posting, although wouldn’t be the first time.
On September 22 2021 05:52 WombaT wrote: If 2018 Serral is playing all three GSLs he’s not picking up at least one?
Hey we’ll never know, seems unlikely to me. Equally saying he’ll stomp all three seasons is a little stretch. Possible but I wouldn’t bet on it either.
Ultimately Korea’s top players hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I’m unsure why fans with a particular bias to the Korean scene think they know better than the top Korean pros.
You're arguing against things which have never been said, Nobody here doesn't hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I wonder where this comes from...
Saying Serral isn't the GOAT = Saying Serral is a bad player apparently on this forum
Come on man let’s not make out folks don’t go way beyond ‘Serral isn’t the goat’, incidentally also my position. Arguably the best single year, with stiff competition.
My point was merely that dedicated Serral fans and anti-fans go too far in either direction. As per what I said, I don’t think Serral sweeps GSL in 2018, nor do I think he isn’t competitive in that tournament.
Everyone else in threads gets caught in this irritating pissing contest between these cohorts.
Some is a reaction to an OTT hype train, I mean I respect most casters but when they’re referring to Serral as the GOAT every cast it’s ridiculous. Utterly ludicrous. 2018 form was probably never going to be sustainable, but he’d have had to have kept close to it from 2019 to now and then, yeah maybe.
Some is a reaction to the folks who take their love of the Korean scene into new and strange directions to downplay how good Serral is in a way they just 100% wouldn’t be doing if he was an emerging Korean talent.
In regards to your last paragraph you have it completely backwards. If Serral was Korean he would not be viewed as a GOAT candidate and his 2018 would not be viewed better than Maru's. He would be viewed as a very good player who spent some time as the best in the world and is still top 5 but ultimately peaked far too late in the games life to be a GOAT candidate at least without having an absurd streak that lasted years and winning multiple world championships which he didn't do.
On September 22 2021 05:52 WombaT wrote: If 2018 Serral is playing all three GSLs he’s not picking up at least one?
Hey we’ll never know, seems unlikely to me. Equally saying he’ll stomp all three seasons is a little stretch. Possible but I wouldn’t bet on it either.
Ultimately Korea’s top players hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I’m unsure why fans with a particular bias to the Korean scene think they know better than the top Korean pros.
You're arguing against things which have never been said, Nobody here doesn't hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I wonder where this comes from...
Saying Serral isn't the GOAT = Saying Serral is a bad player apparently on this forum
Come on man let’s not make out folks don’t go way beyond ‘Serral isn’t the goat’, incidentally also my position. Arguably the best single year, with stiff competition.
My point was merely that dedicated Serral fans and anti-fans go too far in either direction. As per what I said, I don’t think Serral sweeps GSL in 2018, nor do I think he isn’t competitive in that tournament.
Everyone else in threads gets caught in this irritating pissing contest between these cohorts.
Some is a reaction to an OTT hype train, I mean I respect most casters but when they’re referring to Serral as the GOAT every cast it’s ridiculous. Utterly ludicrous. 2018 form was probably never going to be sustainable, but he’d have had to have kept close to it from 2019 to now and then, yeah maybe.
Some is a reaction to the folks who take their love of the Korean scene into new and strange directions to downplay how good Serral is in a way they just 100% wouldn’t be doing if he was an emerging Korean talent.
In regards to your last paragraph you have it completely backwards. If Serral was Korean he would not be viewed as a GOAT candidate and his 2018 would not be viewed better than Maru's. He would be viewed as a very good player who spent some time as the best in the world and is still top 5 but ultimately peaked far too late in the games life to be a GOAT candidate at least without having an absurd streak that lasted years and winning multiple world championships which he didn't do.
oh but JJH he dominated WCS Europe in 2019 too don't you remember?! Rofl.
Serral's title count is inflated. Pure and simple. He only won a couple of titles vs legit Koreans and won them all during a period when Zerg was overpowered.
Is he great? yes. Does his title count matter when viewed in the lense of the entire game, only if you value the fact he isn't Korean.
Facts. If he was Korean, no one would give a shit about the kind of dominance he's displayed. He only gets the credit he does because he's white.
Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
Agree, Rotti is good but he needs to stop that kind of unprofessional biases.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
So we're counting what now? Only Global finals? Maru has zero titles then and he is playing for over 10 years!
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
Agree, Rotti is good but he needs to stop that kind of unprofessional biases.
tbf I think Rotti isn't the worst when it comes to overhyping foreigners. Catz or Demu are far worse in that regard, as far as I know Rotti has never called Serral the Goat
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
yeah I think top 10 is reasonable for him. top 5 however is very arguable and top 3 deluded imo
for me it's: Maru / Inno / Rogue >>Zest / Stats / Dark / sOs / Life >> Mvp / soO / Classic / Serral so Serral is in the batch of players that compete for 9th and 10th
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Plus other weekenders against stiff competition.
Actual GSLs are great and the prep format is (sadly IMO) pretty unique in the scene now, I think they can get weighed a bit heavily vs weekenders.
There’s something about showing up on your lonesome, not knowing who you’ll play and showing up and thriving in the chaos. Whereas a Starleague match can be the individual being left to execute and delivery a cumulative team effort.
Not to knock Starleagues at all, in ways they’re the pinnacle of a strategy game format wise, I’d be fascinated to know more details of some prep done or have some behind the scenes doc on it.
I think herO or Taeja are sometimes given a little less credit by doing their best work in weekend gauntlets, to take two names that spring to mind.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
I think we’re nearly at the stage where GSL needs Serral, Reynor maybe Clem more than they need it. Or roughly equally anyway.
I think a huge majority of fans have wanted Serral/Reynor to go to/back fo Code S for quite some time, and many think (including myself) that they’ve conquered everything else they can conquer and that’s the last mountain to climb.
Not for the money but for the greatness and glory.
On the other hand the GSL is missing 2 of the best players in the world. Which was fine when it was 2 out of the top 20 or whatever, when it starts to get to 2 out of the top 5/6 or whatever, yeah
It’s almost paradoxical, know that’s not quite the word! Serral etc have to win a GSL to prove themselves in the most cutthroat tournament, but it’s only going to be the most cutthroat tournament if they play it.
Less of a factor if Classic/herO/Gumiho can get back to their top shape, at least for now.
EPT
