On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
You dont understand anything. Those results were before his ascension ! We only count Serrals results since he started winning everything.
What are you on about. The dude literally lost 3 series offline in a year. Can't get much more dominant than that :D
I am on about that in 2018, Serral was clearly the best and most dominant player. But if we look at serious tournaments, then his results are:
IEM WC - RO4 WESG - RO4 GSL vs World - Winner Blizzcon - Winner
Maybe we could also count IEM PyeongChang - RO8 HSC - Winner
Its super impressive, yes, but its not like he was unbeatable winning absolutely everything. There is no way we can tell he would achieve this in GSL that year as Maru did, becaue those are tournaments with top opposition. He won 3 from 6. On the other hand its much higher probability that the top Koreans would have stopped him in some of those WCS foreigner fests, its just statistics.
My remark was mocking Xanion, who constantly stated we should disregard Serrals performance at IEM WC or WESG that year because that was before his ascension, which is completely uterly ridiculous since they are a big part of the season and especially IEM WC is one of the biggest tournaments, which Serral did not manage to win even in his best form. So if you count it like you should, his year was ultra impressive, but his aura of absolute invincibility and predicting him doing the same streak he did even with playing GSL is just wishful thinking of fanboys.
If they hadn't nerfed the raven out the game, Maru and TY would have crushed Serral......
On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote: Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable.
Nah it's simpler than that. Zerg was overpowered in 2018 and 2019, it was just that Serral was the first to really show why. He raised the bar for what top tier Zerg was, and since everyone started imitating him it made the absurdity of the race's balance become all too apparent to the point where we had the stupidity that was ALL of 2019.
Looking back on it, and how heavily Zerg has been nerfed and yet still winning championships, it's absurd to me that the game was ever considered anything less than broken during that period, ESPECIALLY with the laughable map pools that Serral won on.
That's the thing about Maru, he's played in so many eras and won so many titles even when he was the only Terran able to compete at the top level because of how badly the game was balanced. His dominance stretches over multiple eras, map pools and metas. Serral really only had one true hot streak and since his race got brought more in line with the others he hasn't been able to get back up to that level. Serral's not the only pro that's had parts like that in his career. Guys like Byun also come to mind. Ever since Byun got Reapers deservedly nerfed he's been a shadow of what his peak looked like, and then the wrist issues only add to that. Same thing with Neeb and Adepts.
Players like Rogue, Maru and even Dark to a lesser extent are really rare in this game. They've been around forever and have won in all kinds of metas and game balances. It's also one of the things that made Innovation so great, he was basically ALWAYS a dominant Terran no matter what the meta or balance was up until recently before he retired.
Yall always mention reapers, but EVERYONE forgets tanks vacs were a thing...
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
You dont understand anything. Those results were before his ascension ! We only count Serrals results since he started winning everything.
What are you on about. The dude literally lost 3 series offline in a year. Can't get much more dominant than that :D
I am on about that in 2018, Serral was clearly the best and most dominant player. But if we look at serious tournaments, then his results are:
IEM WC - RO4 WESG - RO4 GSL vs World - Winner Blizzcon - Winner
Maybe we could also count IEM PyeongChang - RO8 HSC - Winner
Its super impressive, yes, but its not like he was unbeatable winning absolutely everything. There is no way we can tell he would achieve this in GSL that year as Maru did, becaue those are tournaments with top opposition. He won 3 from 6. On the other hand its much higher probability that the top Koreans would have stopped him in some of those WCS foreigner fests, its just statistics.
My remark was mocking Xanion, who constantly stated we should disregard Serrals performance at IEM WC or WESG that year because that was before his ascension, which is completely uterly ridiculous since they are a big part of the season and especially IEM WC is one of the biggest tournaments, which Serral did not manage to win even in his best form. So if you count it like you should, his year was ultra impressive, but his aura of absolute invincibility and predicting him doing the same streak he did even with playing GSL is just wishful thinking of fanboys.
If they hadn't nerfed the raven out the game, Maru and TY would have crushed Serral......
Fun thing about these ravens is that they weren’t even OP, it just made the games boring. Rogue beat Maru 3-2 no problem, and the match Maru won against Dark he lost the macro games and won with 2 rax variations.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
for the case you aren't sarcastic, Serral got 3-0ed by both Maru and Classic that year
You dont understand anything. Those results were before his ascension ! We only count Serrals results since he started winning everything.
What are you on about. The dude literally lost 3 series offline in a year. Can't get much more dominant than that :D
I am on about that in 2018, Serral was clearly the best and most dominant player. But if we look at serious tournaments, then his results are:
IEM WC - RO4 WESG - RO4 GSL vs World - Winner Blizzcon - Winner
Maybe we could also count IEM PyeongChang - RO8 HSC - Winner
Its super impressive, yes, but its not like he was unbeatable winning absolutely everything. There is no way we can tell he would achieve this in GSL that year as Maru did, becaue those are tournaments with top opposition. He won 3 from 6. On the other hand its much higher probability that the top Koreans would have stopped him in some of those WCS foreigner fests, its just statistics.
My remark was mocking Xanion, who constantly stated we should disregard Serrals performance at IEM WC or WESG that year because that was before his ascension, which is completely uterly ridiculous since they are a big part of the season and especially IEM WC is one of the biggest tournaments, which Serral did not manage to win even in his best form. So if you count it like you should, his year was ultra impressive, but his aura of absolute invincibility and predicting him doing the same streak he did even with playing GSL is just wishful thinking of fanboys.
If they hadn't nerfed the raven out the game, Maru and TY would have crushed Serral......
Fun thing about these ravens is that they weren’t even OP, it just made the games boring. Rogue beat Maru 3-2 no problem, and the match Maru won against Dark he lost the macro games and won with 2 rax variations.
Mass raven was absolutely OP back then, just getting to the critical point was very hard.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
sub out Serral and put in Dark or Maru or Rogue etc, they would have most likely won all those WCS tournaments that Serral won too. Now sub in serral instead of say maru etc into a GSL, could he have won a GSL? sure, but what are the chance he won GSL's back to back to back, the chances start to go alot lower.
Marus achievement is more impressive, the benchmark was GSL in 2018 by far not WCS (in terms of skill).
Also, no not all the Korean pros said that... alot of them just acknowledged Serral was the first foreigner they felt really challenged by.
BTW harris I like your GOAT list overall, not necessarily in the same order and players but its very similar to what I would probably have, except no DARK? Dark is one of the greatest of all time in sc2 and also has stood the test of time.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
sub out Serral and put in Dark or Maru or Rogue etc, they would have most likely won all those WCS tournaments that Serral won too. Now sub in serral instead of say maru etc into a GSL, could he have won a GSL? sure, but what are the chance he won GSL's back to back to back, the chances start to go alot lower.
Marus achievement is more impressive, the benchmark was GSL in 2018 by far not WCS (in terms of skill).
Also, no not all the Korean pros said that... alot of them just acknowledged Serral was the first foreigner they felt really challenged by.
BTW harris I like your GOAT list overall, not necessarily in the same order and players but its very similar to what I would probably have, except no DARK? Dark is one of the greatest of all time in sc2 and also has stood the test of time.
I said I wouldn't have but I can't refrain from replying, you are doing trying to rewrite history in accord to your own ideas(and I'm the one biased, right).
You think Maru's achievements in 2018 are superior to Serral's which is fine since there is no way to compare the higher average quality of Maru's wins to the objective metrics for which Serral's successes are more relevant(number of titles, streak, earnings et cetera); that's your opinion, I have mine. We'll never agree, it's fair.
Trying to diminish the unprecedent domination over Sc2 that Serral showcased in the second half of 2018 by saying that any other top korean would have done the same, however, is not acceptable.
Serral was head and shoulders above the average TOP korean pro, the viewing experience confirms it, the numbers confirm it, the titles confirm it and only an enormously biased korean elitist could try to deny it. Serral would have been the favorite for both Code S S2 and Code S S3 and him winning them both would have been reasonably likely; while I think he would have dropped series, I also think his winning streaks over koreans would have turned out to be much bigger in the end due to Serral effectively playing against mid and low tier koreans, unlike the ones he had to face in the international events he won.
The korean pros who didn't acknowledge Serral did so right after having been crushed, deal with the fact Serral was superior at the time. He was inferior earlier, gradually degraded throughout the years later but there is no way you should try to cast shades about how dominant Serral was in the second half of 2018. You should be a hater in denial like Mariano is, how embarassing could it be to believe that Serral would still linger somewhere in top 20 in a GOAT list in 2021?
Serral might have won a Code S, though with how predictable he was and still is, I don't think his chances in a tournament with long prep time are as good as you think. But he chose not to participate.
And yes, any top Korean would be the huge favorite for WCS in 2018. Serral would be literally the only credible opposition at the time. But they were banned from playing in it.
For me, that's what makes the difference. Serral had so much handed to him: the region lock, the meta favoring Zerg just always going defensive macro, and the balance at the time. He managed a crazy and impressive run based off that, one that shows incredible talent, but once other real contenders started showing up in Europe and once Rogue and Dark started winning everything and therefore Zerg finally got patched, he couldn't keep it going.
I think Serral is now what he has always been: a very good player with a shot in any tournament he enters, but not the ascended being some of his fans make him out to be.
I'm not trying to rewrite anything. You talk about "metrics", here's the thing, what do you not understand, the WCS tournaments Serral competed it were significantly weaker competition than what say Maru has to compete vs in the GSL.
Here are some of Serral's WCS tournamment in 2018:
Look at the list of players and tell me GSL is not much harder? Put in Maru or Rogue in any of those WCS brackets (in place of Serral) odds are they win the whole thing. Koreans were winning nearly every tournament where foreigners were in too, what is so controversial to think a top tier Korean like Maru/Rogue/Dark/TY would have won those WCS? It 's not. Matter of fact, Koreans still win all the major tournaments, EXCEPT for the ones by Serral and Reynor.
And you say Serral was head and shoulders above an average top korean pro and you say "viewing experience". That just shows how biased you are.
I'm not casting shade at Serral at all, he's amazing. it's you who constantly undermines the Korean pros. You said a hater? Not at all, I'm a fan of Serral, I just can't stand biased people like you who undermine the Korean pros and put Serral on an unrealisitc pedestal.
Not sure what you are saying about top 20 goat etc, but matter of fact Serral is in my list of all time greats.
It's pointless, unless it's a futile attempt to bait for which I'd gladly recommend you to to stick to Twitch Chat.
I perfectly understand that WCS events were easier than Code S events, it's you that you don't, don't want or are incapable of understanding that winning al four of them was not as easy as you think. Even if you take out Serral, european's win rate in ZvZ in 2018/2019 were pretty close to 50% against koreans, Scarlett won IEM Pyeonchang over sOs earlier in 2018 and Neeb went as far as ro4 in Code S S3(check who was the one who defeat, Reynor was starting to rise at the end of year. Any of those korean would have been the favorite to win a WCS event but I doubt that any of them would have effectively won all of them(bar maybe Maru since he was almost as good as Serral that year and started peaking earlier).
Oh yes, Serral was head and shoulders above the average korean pro and it's not the bias who speaks, it's numbers like an 80% wr against koreans during the whole year and a 20-0 offline boX streak against them(mainly top players). Not to mention the detail that he won GSL vs the World, BlizzCon and HSC against korean opposition. They had months to prepare for Serral, if they could have stopped him they certainly would have at BlizzCon. Go watch Rogue's pre match interview and his expression towards the end of g4 of the semifinal to understand what was Serral at his peak.
I don't disrespect korean pros, probably not mindlessly revering the sons of the holy land of Starcraft hurts your sensibilty and you perceive my statements as blasphemous. Everyone knows there are koreans among my favorite players, yet you have the impression that I secretly undermine them. It's also known to everyone that I generally prefer supporting foreigners but that does not mean that I disrespect korean players.
You are not named Mariano, are you? Also, which pedestal? Right now, Serral is just a top player among others. In the past, he was first the best player in the world by far and then a primus inter pares. Does this seem controversial to you?
On September 22 2021 02:09 QOGQOG wrote: Serral might have won a Code S, though with how predictable he was and still is, I don't think his chances in a tournament with long prep time are as good as you think. But he chose not to participate.
And yes, any top Korean would be the huge favorite for WCS in 2018. Serral would be literally the only credible opposition at the time. But they were banned from playing in it.
For me, that's what makes the difference. Serral had so much handed to him: the region lock, the meta favoring Zerg just always going defensive macro, and the balance at the time. He managed a crazy and impressive run based off that, one that shows incredible talent, but once other real contenders started showing up in Europe and once Rogue and Dark started winning everything and therefore Zerg finally got patched, he couldn't keep it going.
I think Serral is now what he has always been: a very good player with a shot in any tournament he enters, but not the ascended being some of his fans make him out to be.
When Serral was at his best, Zerg were doing very poorly in Code S and Zerg as a race was not overpowered, despite being strong; Zerg became overpowered in 2019 after certain poorly designed nerf to Protoss and Serral kept winning more than anyone that year, even if he wasn't dominating Sc2 anymore. Serral still had a ro8 as lowest placement during two whole years and even after COVID when he declined further, he won three titles and lost five finals; he also just recently came back to winning after ten months and it looked like he hadn't triumphed in ages. Serral's current win rates and tournament runs are not comparable with those he had when he was at his apex, he definitely is not "what he has always been".
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
sub out Serral and put in Dark or Maru or Rogue etc, they would have most likely won all those WCS tournaments that Serral won too. Now sub in serral instead of say maru etc into a GSL, could he have won a GSL? sure, but what are the chance he won GSL's back to back to back, the chances start to go alot lower.
Marus achievement is more impressive, the benchmark was GSL in 2018 by far not WCS (in terms of skill).
Also, no not all the Korean pros said that... alot of them just acknowledged Serral was the first foreigner they felt really challenged by.
BTW harris I like your GOAT list overall, not necessarily in the same order and players but its very similar to what I would probably have, except no DARK? Dark is one of the greatest of all time in sc2 and also has stood the test of time.
You should be a hater in denial like Mariano is, how embarassing could it be to believe that Serral would still linger somewhere in top 20 in a GOAT list in 2021?
Well he is most definitely not in the top 10, that is an undeniable fact based off results and achievements (he just does not have many big titles and he is playing considerably shorter than other top 10 contenders) and no matter how hard Serral fanboys and deluded foreignland fans try, it wont become a reality unless he grabs at least 1 more WC level tournament.
Also, top 20 may mean 11.th place as well you know, although I personally would put him around 15th. If he wins 1 more huge tournament, he jumps to the top10 as many players still before him wont win anything else again.
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
sub out Serral and put in Dark or Maru or Rogue etc, they would have most likely won all those WCS tournaments that Serral won too. Now sub in serral instead of say maru etc into a GSL, could he have won a GSL? sure, but what are the chance he won GSL's back to back to back, the chances start to go alot lower.
Marus achievement is more impressive, the benchmark was GSL in 2018 by far not WCS (in terms of skill).
Also, no not all the Korean pros said that... alot of them just acknowledged Serral was the first foreigner they felt really challenged by.
BTW harris I like your GOAT list overall, not necessarily in the same order and players but its very similar to what I would probably have, except no DARK? Dark is one of the greatest of all time in sc2 and also has stood the test of time.
You should be a hater in denial like Mariano is, how embarassing could it be to believe that Serral would still linger somewhere in top 20 in a GOAT list in 2021?
Well he is most definitely not in the top 10, that is an undeniable fact based off results and achievements (he just does not have many big titles and he is playing considerably shorter than other top 10 contenders) and no matter how hard Serral fanboys and deluded foreignland fans try, it wont become a reality unless he grabs at least 1 more WC level tournament.
Also, top 20 may mean 11.th place as well you know, although I personally would put him around 15th. If he wins 1 more huge tournament, he jumps to the top10 as many players still before him wont win anything else again.
On September 22 2021 02:46 Xain0n wrote:
When Serral was at his best, Zerg were doing very poorly in Code S and Zerg as a race was not overpowered, despite being strong; Zerg became overpowered in 2019 after certain poorly designed nerf to Protoss and Serral kept winning more than anyone that year, even if he wasn't dominating Sc2 anymore. Serral still had a ro8 as lowest placement during two whole years and even after COVID when he declined further, he won three titles and lost five finals; he also just recently came back to winning after ten months and it looked like he hadn't triumphed in ages. Serral's current win rates and tournament runs are not comparable with those he had when he was at his apex, he definitely is not "what he has always been".
Still this deluded BS? You were proven wrong many times yet you still refuse to accept reality. Yes, Zerg was already OP in 2018 and if Serral wasnt a better patchzerg than the others and eliminated many of them in the tournaments he won, some other Zerg would have taken his place. In 2019 other Zergs adjusted and the race became even more OP.
And yes, Serral is what he always was, one of the best players in the world, an unprecedented talent from foreignland, who had his streak of dominance as many players before him, although not as visible because they didnt have the option to farm weak region locked tournaments the whole year.
Its like everyone else is saying to you, we all know Serral is awesome, but guys like you put him onto this annoying pedestal which disgusts some people and they feel you need a reality check. But some people are just too stubborn I guess...
Haha, was pretty fun absenting these boards for awhile. It's probably time to accept that Tl.net forums no longer need to be part of my enjoyment of the sc2 scene, just streams and ladder for me. Browsing the forums was always an enjoyable thing dating back to the WoL beta, but it's basically become a cesspool dominated by 4-5 rather toxic posters spewing bad opinions and bad content anytime Serral (and to a lesser extent, Reynor) play. Which is basically every major competition.
Pretty funny, because it's possible to think that Maru is pretty easily the sc2 GOAT (Rogue has a strong claim, but his games/play-style in many of his signature wins aren't my cup of tea) while still admiring Serral as an awesome player (ditto for Reynor). The former hasn't really added to his resume in the way that Maru/Rogue have over the past year+, but debating Serral's 2018 dominance is pretty laughable--just like those same, tired individuals who bashed Reynor's IEM win earlier this year.
Xain0n might be biased, but at least he's always made good-faith arguments that epitomize what it means to be a fan of a player in any sport. Others like Mariano, Chariosaur, Deacon, JJHH7 etc, are cancer in any medium. I guess that's the problem when a community continues to shrink and the worst voices get amplified.
Pretty funny, because it's possible to think that Maru is pretty easily the sc2 GOAT (Rogue has a strong claim, but his games/play-style in many of his signature wins aren't my cup of tea) while still admiring Serral as an awesome player (ditto for Reynor).
I've not heard one guy denying Serral is an awesome player. People rightfully get upset when ridicolous statements about him are being made like that he would've easily won every GSL or that he is the Goat (luckily nobody claimed the latter in this thread)
On September 21 2021 07:14 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you bored of the same discussion after all of those years? I should really just post a link with the thousand of answers I have given.
Anyway, no. Not necessarily, europeans were already very strong in ZvZ in 2018 and none of the players you listed was consistent enough to be sure that they would have won all the Dreamhacks that year; Maru would probably have been the exception given his phenomenal 2018 but you should ask yourself instead how many Code S titles he would have won if Serral played in Korea that year.
Also, the legendary part is less about the Dreamhacks and more about the most titles in one year and the biggest offline streak ever, including the highest number of consecutive victories against koreans(bar none, has anyone said "weak competition"?).
I won't reply any further, it would just be a senseless repetition of things said countless times already.
It's the other way around...
ask yourself how many WCS titles Serral would have won if he had to compete vs all the tops koreans. He had to play vs way inferior competition, than say Maru does in a GSL.
you are so biased lol
Easy answer: All of them. Nobody could stop him. All the Koreans even said so. He was the most feared player.
Just for good measure, my personal GOAT list: Maru > Inno > Rogue/ Serral > Trap/ Stats / Zest
Life doesn't belong in any list. For all I know, he cheated in every game he ever played
sub out Serral and put in Dark or Maru or Rogue etc, they would have most likely won all those WCS tournaments that Serral won too. Now sub in serral instead of say maru etc into a GSL, could he have won a GSL? sure, but what are the chance he won GSL's back to back to back, the chances start to go alot lower.
Marus achievement is more impressive, the benchmark was GSL in 2018 by far not WCS (in terms of skill).
Also, no not all the Korean pros said that... alot of them just acknowledged Serral was the first foreigner they felt really challenged by.
BTW harris I like your GOAT list overall, not necessarily in the same order and players but its very similar to what I would probably have, except no DARK? Dark is one of the greatest of all time in sc2 and also has stood the test of time.
You should be a hater in denial like Mariano is, how embarassing could it be to believe that Serral would still linger somewhere in top 20 in a GOAT list in 2021?
Well he is most definitely not in the top 10, that is an undeniable fact based off results and achievements (he just does not have many big titles and he is playing considerably shorter than other top 10 contenders) and no matter how hard Serral fanboys and deluded foreignland fans try, it wont become a reality unless he grabs at least 1 more WC level tournament.
Also, top 20 may mean 11.th place as well you know, although I personally would put him around 15th. If he wins 1 more huge tournament, he jumps to the top10 as many players still before him wont win anything else again.
When Serral was at his best, Zerg were doing very poorly in Code S and Zerg as a race was not overpowered, despite being strong; Zerg became overpowered in 2019 after certain poorly designed nerf to Protoss and Serral kept winning more than anyone that year, even if he wasn't dominating Sc2 anymore. Serral still had a ro8 as lowest placement during two whole years and even after COVID when he declined further, he won three titles and lost five finals; he also just recently came back to winning after ten months and it looked like he hadn't triumphed in ages. Serral's current win rates and tournament runs are not comparable with those he had when he was at his apex, he definitely is not "what he has always been".
Still this deluded BS? You were proven wrong many times yet you still refuse to accept reality. Yes, Zerg was already OP in 2018 and if Serral wasnt a better patchzerg than the others and eliminated many of them in the tournaments he won, some other Zerg would have taken his place. In 2019 other Zergs adjusted and the race became even more OP.
And yes, Serral is what he always was, one of the best players in the world, an unprecedented talent from foreignland, who had his streak of dominance as many players before him, although not as visible because they didnt have the option to farm weak region locked tournaments the whole year.
Its like everyone else is saying to you, we all know Serral is awesome, but guys like you put him onto this annoying pedestal which disgusts some people and they feel you need a reality check. But some people are just too stubborn I guess...
Serral not being top10 is such a widely accepted idea that he was mentioned in almosts every list that has been posted in the previous messages, by people who are definitely not the biggest fan of foreigners.
You cannot prove me or anyone else wrong about Zerg in 2018 or Serral's dominance being just like the one of many others, there are numbers, brackets and titles to support what I am saying and a whole ocean of bias in favor of what you are convinced of.
The "annoying pedestal" is telling you that Serral was incredibly dominant when he was? So why aren't you disgusted and speak out when Maru wins a game in series he will loses and people here post that he's godlike, Dark doesn't win a trophy in 13 months and people view him as the heavy favourite for every tournament he's entering or even when people constantly praise Heromarine knowing that he hasn't won a Premier title in his whole career? If i were speaking of Serral being unbeatable today you would have all the rights to call me deluded, that's just not the case.
This discussion is sterile and incredibly repetitive.
If 2018 Serral is playing all three GSLs he’s not picking up at least one?
Hey we’ll never know, seems unlikely to me. Equally saying he’ll stomp all three seasons is a little stretch. Possible but I wouldn’t bet on it either.
Ultimately Korea’s top players hold him in very high regard for his skills in the game, I’m unsure why fans with a particular bias to the Korean scene think they know better than the top Korean pros.
On September 22 2021 02:46 Xain0n wrote: It's pointless, unless it's a futile attempt to bait for which I'd gladly recommend you to to stick to Twitch Chat.
I perfectly understand that WCS events were easier than Code S events, it's you that you don't, don't want or are incapable of understanding that winning al four of them was not as easy as you think. Even if you take out Serral, european's win rate in ZvZ in 2018/2019 were pretty close to 50% against koreans, Scarlett won IEM Pyeonchang over sOs earlier in 2018 and Neeb went as far as ro4 in Code S S3(check who was the one who defeat, Reynor was starting to rise at the end of year. Any of those korean would have been the favorite to win a WCS event but I doubt that any of them would have effectively won all of them(bar maybe Maru since he was almost as good as Serral that year and started peaking earlier).
Oh yes, Serral was head and shoulders above the average korean pro and it's not the bias who speaks, it's numbers like an 80% wr against koreans during the whole year and a 20-0 offline boX streak against them(mainly top players). Not to mention the detail that he won GSL vs the World, BlizzCon and HSC against korean opposition. They had months to prepare for Serral, if they could have stopped him they certainly would have at BlizzCon. Go watch Rogue's pre match interview and his expression towards the end of g4 of the semifinal to understand what was Serral at his peak.
I don't disrespect korean pros, probably not mindlessly revering the sons of the holy land of Starcraft hurts your sensibilty and you perceive my statements as blasphemous. Everyone knows there are koreans among my favorite players, yet you have the impression that I secretly undermine them. It's also known to everyone that I generally prefer supporting foreigners but that does not mean that I disrespect korean players.
You are not named Mariano, are you? Also, which pedestal? Right now, Serral is just a top player among others. In the past, he was first the best player in the world by far and then a primus inter pares. Does this seem controversial to you?
On September 22 2021 02:09 QOGQOG wrote: Serral might have won a Code S, though with how predictable he was and still is, I don't think his chances in a tournament with long prep time are as good as you think. But he chose not to participate.
And yes, any top Korean would be the huge favorite for WCS in 2018. Serral would be literally the only credible opposition at the time. But they were banned from playing in it.
For me, that's what makes the difference. Serral had so much handed to him: the region lock, the meta favoring Zerg just always going defensive macro, and the balance at the time. He managed a crazy and impressive run based off that, one that shows incredible talent, but once other real contenders started showing up in Europe and once Rogue and Dark started winning everything and therefore Zerg finally got patched, he couldn't keep it going.
I think Serral is now what he has always been: a very good player with a shot in any tournament he enters, but not the ascended being some of his fans make him out to be.
When Serral was at his best, Zerg were doing very poorly in Code S and Zerg as a race was not overpowered, despite being strong; Zerg became overpowered in 2019 after certain poorly designed nerf to Protoss and Serral kept winning more than anyone that year, even if he wasn't dominating Sc2 anymore. Serral still had a ro8 as lowest placement during two whole years and even after COVID when he declined further, he won three titles and lost five finals; he also just recently came back to winning after ten months and it looked like he hadn't triumphed in ages. Serral's current win rates and tournament runs are not comparable with those he had when he was at his apex, he definitely is not "what he has always been".
I argued one main point and it was due to you saying this. (few pages ago) "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
That statement is preposterous. You admitted the GSL's were harder in 2018 and any of those top koreans would have been favored to win any of the WCS tournaments. Yet you say Serral's WCS wins are more impressive than Maru's back to back GSL wins.
Maru's GSL wins > Serrals WCS run, the competition in those GSL's was much harder then those in WCS.
And dude I barely post here, please don't project. You say mindlessly worshipping korean pros, look in the mirror, you do that with Serral clearly. And you say this is beaten down etc, yet here you are.
And you tell me to stick to twitch chat, ironic since I see you chatting away in every event, when you claim you haven't been following.
On September 22 2021 02:46 Xain0n wrote: It's pointless, unless it's a futile attempt to bait for which I'd gladly recommend you to to stick to Twitch Chat.
I perfectly understand that WCS events were easier than Code S events, it's you that you don't, don't want or are incapable of understanding that winning al four of them was not as easy as you think. Even if you take out Serral, european's win rate in ZvZ in 2018/2019 were pretty close to 50% against koreans, Scarlett won IEM Pyeonchang over sOs earlier in 2018 and Neeb went as far as ro4 in Code S S3(check who was the one who defeat, Reynor was starting to rise at the end of year. Any of those korean would have been the favorite to win a WCS event but I doubt that any of them would have effectively won all of them(bar maybe Maru since he was almost as good as Serral that year and started peaking earlier).
Oh yes, Serral was head and shoulders above the average korean pro and it's not the bias who speaks, it's numbers like an 80% wr against koreans during the whole year and a 20-0 offline boX streak against them(mainly top players). Not to mention the detail that he won GSL vs the World, BlizzCon and HSC against korean opposition. They had months to prepare for Serral, if they could have stopped him they certainly would have at BlizzCon. Go watch Rogue's pre match interview and his expression towards the end of g4 of the semifinal to understand what was Serral at his peak.
I don't disrespect korean pros, probably not mindlessly revering the sons of the holy land of Starcraft hurts your sensibilty and you perceive my statements as blasphemous. Everyone knows there are koreans among my favorite players, yet you have the impression that I secretly undermine them. It's also known to everyone that I generally prefer supporting foreigners but that does not mean that I disrespect korean players.
You are not named Mariano, are you? Also, which pedestal? Right now, Serral is just a top player among others. In the past, he was first the best player in the world by far and then a primus inter pares. Does this seem controversial to you?
On September 22 2021 02:09 QOGQOG wrote: Serral might have won a Code S, though with how predictable he was and still is, I don't think his chances in a tournament with long prep time are as good as you think. But he chose not to participate.
And yes, any top Korean would be the huge favorite for WCS in 2018. Serral would be literally the only credible opposition at the time. But they were banned from playing in it.
For me, that's what makes the difference. Serral had so much handed to him: the region lock, the meta favoring Zerg just always going defensive macro, and the balance at the time. He managed a crazy and impressive run based off that, one that shows incredible talent, but once other real contenders started showing up in Europe and once Rogue and Dark started winning everything and therefore Zerg finally got patched, he couldn't keep it going.
I think Serral is now what he has always been: a very good player with a shot in any tournament he enters, but not the ascended being some of his fans make him out to be.
When Serral was at his best, Zerg were doing very poorly in Code S and Zerg as a race was not overpowered, despite being strong; Zerg became overpowered in 2019 after certain poorly designed nerf to Protoss and Serral kept winning more than anyone that year, even if he wasn't dominating Sc2 anymore. Serral still had a ro8 as lowest placement during two whole years and even after COVID when he declined further, he won three titles and lost five finals; he also just recently came back to winning after ten months and it looked like he hadn't triumphed in ages. Serral's current win rates and tournament runs are not comparable with those he had when he was at his apex, he definitely is not "what he has always been".
I argued one main point and it was due to you saying this. (few pages ago) "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
That statement is preposterous. You admitted the GSL's were harder in 2018 and any of those top koreans would have been favored to win any of the WCS tournaments. Yet you say Serral's WCS wins are more impressive than Maru's back to back GSL wins.
Maru's GSL wins > Serrals WCS run, the competition in those GSL's was much harder then those in WCS.
And dude I barely post here, please don't project. You say mindlessly worshipping korean pros, look in the mirror, you do that with Serral clearly. And you say this is beaten down etc, yet here you are.
And you tell me to stick to twitch chat, ironic since I see you chatting away in every event, when you claim you haven't been following.
If you could read you would have realized I said I was barely following the scene lately, as opposed to what I previously used to do; you would have also realized that I had clarified I was speaking to the Code S that actually took place in 2018, not about every Code S played throughout Sc2's history. I did also say that I doubt that any korean other than Maru could have won four consecutive WCS. Also, and most important of all, you seem to be oblivious to Serral's international achievements in 2018 which are the ones giving him the highest credit; the funny fact is that I mentioned it so, again, do you even read what I am writing?
"Please don't project" while you accused me of being biased and undermining korean pros with no apparent reason; I still can't decide if you are for real or not, and if you are, well...
On September 22 2021 02:46 Xain0n wrote: It's pointless, unless it's a futile attempt to bait for which I'd gladly recommend you to to stick to Twitch Chat.
I perfectly understand that WCS events were easier than Code S events, it's you that you don't, don't want or are incapable of understanding that winning al four of them was not as easy as you think. Even if you take out Serral, european's win rate in ZvZ in 2018/2019 were pretty close to 50% against koreans, Scarlett won IEM Pyeonchang over sOs earlier in 2018 and Neeb went as far as ro4 in Code S S3(check who was the one who defeat, Reynor was starting to rise at the end of year. Any of those korean would have been the favorite to win a WCS event but I doubt that any of them would have effectively won all of them(bar maybe Maru since he was almost as good as Serral that year and started peaking earlier).
Oh yes, Serral was head and shoulders above the average korean pro and it's not the bias who speaks, it's numbers like an 80% wr against koreans during the whole year and a 20-0 offline boX streak against them(mainly top players). Not to mention the detail that he won GSL vs the World, BlizzCon and HSC against korean opposition. They had months to prepare for Serral, if they could have stopped him they certainly would have at BlizzCon. Go watch Rogue's pre match interview and his expression towards the end of g4 of the semifinal to understand what was Serral at his peak.
I don't disrespect korean pros, probably not mindlessly revering the sons of the holy land of Starcraft hurts your sensibilty and you perceive my statements as blasphemous. Everyone knows there are koreans among my favorite players, yet you have the impression that I secretly undermine them. It's also known to everyone that I generally prefer supporting foreigners but that does not mean that I disrespect korean players.
You are not named Mariano, are you? Also, which pedestal? Right now, Serral is just a top player among others. In the past, he was first the best player in the world by far and then a primus inter pares. Does this seem controversial to you?
On September 22 2021 02:09 QOGQOG wrote: Serral might have won a Code S, though with how predictable he was and still is, I don't think his chances in a tournament with long prep time are as good as you think. But he chose not to participate.
And yes, any top Korean would be the huge favorite for WCS in 2018. Serral would be literally the only credible opposition at the time. But they were banned from playing in it.
For me, that's what makes the difference. Serral had so much handed to him: the region lock, the meta favoring Zerg just always going defensive macro, and the balance at the time. He managed a crazy and impressive run based off that, one that shows incredible talent, but once other real contenders started showing up in Europe and once Rogue and Dark started winning everything and therefore Zerg finally got patched, he couldn't keep it going.
I think Serral is now what he has always been: a very good player with a shot in any tournament he enters, but not the ascended being some of his fans make him out to be.
When Serral was at his best, Zerg were doing very poorly in Code S and Zerg as a race was not overpowered, despite being strong; Zerg became overpowered in 2019 after certain poorly designed nerf to Protoss and Serral kept winning more than anyone that year, even if he wasn't dominating Sc2 anymore. Serral still had a ro8 as lowest placement during two whole years and even after COVID when he declined further, he won three titles and lost five finals; he also just recently came back to winning after ten months and it looked like he hadn't triumphed in ages. Serral's current win rates and tournament runs are not comparable with those he had when he was at his apex, he definitely is not "what he has always been".
I argued one main point and it was due to you saying this. (few pages ago) "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
That statement is preposterous. You admitted the GSL's were harder in 2018 and any of those top koreans would have been favored to win any of the WCS tournaments. Yet you say Serral's WCS wins are more impressive than Maru's back to back GSL wins.
Maru's GSL wins > Serrals WCS run, the competition in those GSL's was much harder then those in WCS.
And dude I barely post here, please don't project. You say mindlessly worshipping korean pros, look in the mirror, you do that with Serral clearly. And you say this is beaten down etc, yet here you are.
And you tell me to stick to twitch chat, ironic since I see you chatting away in every event, when you claim you haven't been following.
If you could read you would have realized I said I was barely following the scene lately, as opposed to what I previously used to do; you would have also realized that I had clarified I was speaking to the Code S that actually took place in 2018, not about every Code S played throughout Sc2's history. I did also say that I doubt that any korean other than Maru could have won four consecutive WCS. Also, and most important of all, you seem to be oblivious to Serral's international achievements in 2018 which are the ones giving him the highest credit.
"Please don't project" while you accused me of being biased and undermining korean pros with no apparent reason; I still can't decide if you are for real or not, and if you are, well...
yea you write a ton without saying much. you're bringing up points that weren't what I was debating. I only brought up Marus 2018 GSL wins and you are bringing up all the Code S's in history. I never brought up all the code S tournaments throughout history nor did I say you did. We were simply comparing Marus 2018 GSL runs vs Serrals wcs runs. You're not making any sense.
if you are referring to your original quote pertaining to all the code S gsls, I always took it as you meaning the code S's in 2018.
On September 22 2021 02:46 Xain0n wrote: It's pointless, unless it's a futile attempt to bait for which I'd gladly recommend you to to stick to Twitch Chat.
I perfectly understand that WCS events were easier than Code S events, it's you that you don't, don't want or are incapable of understanding that winning al four of them was not as easy as you think. Even if you take out Serral, european's win rate in ZvZ in 2018/2019 were pretty close to 50% against koreans, Scarlett won IEM Pyeonchang over sOs earlier in 2018 and Neeb went as far as ro4 in Code S S3(check who was the one who defeat, Reynor was starting to rise at the end of year. Any of those korean would have been the favorite to win a WCS event but I doubt that any of them would have effectively won all of them(bar maybe Maru since he was almost as good as Serral that year and started peaking earlier).
Oh yes, Serral was head and shoulders above the average korean pro and it's not the bias who speaks, it's numbers like an 80% wr against koreans during the whole year and a 20-0 offline boX streak against them(mainly top players). Not to mention the detail that he won GSL vs the World, BlizzCon and HSC against korean opposition. They had months to prepare for Serral, if they could have stopped him they certainly would have at BlizzCon. Go watch Rogue's pre match interview and his expression towards the end of g4 of the semifinal to understand what was Serral at his peak.
I don't disrespect korean pros, probably not mindlessly revering the sons of the holy land of Starcraft hurts your sensibilty and you perceive my statements as blasphemous. Everyone knows there are koreans among my favorite players, yet you have the impression that I secretly undermine them. It's also known to everyone that I generally prefer supporting foreigners but that does not mean that I disrespect korean players.
You are not named Mariano, are you? Also, which pedestal? Right now, Serral is just a top player among others. In the past, he was first the best player in the world by far and then a primus inter pares. Does this seem controversial to you?
On September 22 2021 02:09 QOGQOG wrote: Serral might have won a Code S, though with how predictable he was and still is, I don't think his chances in a tournament with long prep time are as good as you think. But he chose not to participate.
And yes, any top Korean would be the huge favorite for WCS in 2018. Serral would be literally the only credible opposition at the time. But they were banned from playing in it.
For me, that's what makes the difference. Serral had so much handed to him: the region lock, the meta favoring Zerg just always going defensive macro, and the balance at the time. He managed a crazy and impressive run based off that, one that shows incredible talent, but once other real contenders started showing up in Europe and once Rogue and Dark started winning everything and therefore Zerg finally got patched, he couldn't keep it going.
I think Serral is now what he has always been: a very good player with a shot in any tournament he enters, but not the ascended being some of his fans make him out to be.
When Serral was at his best, Zerg were doing very poorly in Code S and Zerg as a race was not overpowered, despite being strong; Zerg became overpowered in 2019 after certain poorly designed nerf to Protoss and Serral kept winning more than anyone that year, even if he wasn't dominating Sc2 anymore. Serral still had a ro8 as lowest placement during two whole years and even after COVID when he declined further, he won three titles and lost five finals; he also just recently came back to winning after ten months and it looked like he hadn't triumphed in ages. Serral's current win rates and tournament runs are not comparable with those he had when he was at his apex, he definitely is not "what he has always been".
I argued one main point and it was due to you saying this. (few pages ago) "Not to mention that no amount of consecutive Code S could be valued over the unprecedent domination Serral displayed over Sc2 that year."
That statement is preposterous. You admitted the GSL's were harder in 2018 and any of those top koreans would have been favored to win any of the WCS tournaments. Yet you say Serral's WCS wins are more impressive than Maru's back to back GSL wins.
Maru's GSL wins > Serrals WCS run, the competition in those GSL's was much harder then those in WCS.
And dude I barely post here, please don't project. You say mindlessly worshipping korean pros, look in the mirror, you do that with Serral clearly. And you say this is beaten down etc, yet here you are.
And you tell me to stick to twitch chat, ironic since I see you chatting away in every event, when you claim you haven't been following.
If you could read you would have realized I said I was barely following the scene lately, as opposed to what I previously used to do; you would have also realized that I had clarified I was speaking to the Code S that actually took place in 2018, not about every Code S played throughout Sc2's history. I did also say that I doubt that any korean other than Maru could have won four consecutive WCS. Also, and most important of all, you seem to be oblivious to Serral's international achievements in 2018 which are the ones giving him the highest credit.
"Please don't project" while you accused me of being biased and undermining korean pros with no apparent reason; I still can't decide if you are for real or not, and if you are, well...
yea you write a ton without saying much. you're bringing up points that weren't what I was debating. I only brought up Marus 2018 GSL wins and you are bringing up all the Code S's in history. I never brought up all the code S tournaments throughout history nor did I say you did. We were simply comparing Marus 2018 GSL runs vs Serrals wcs runs. You're not making any sense.
if you are referring to your original quote pertaining to all the code S gsls, I always took it as you meaning the code S's in 2018.
If you say so. It's clear that Maru's Code S run>Serral's WCS run in 2018, I have actually never said the opposite. I have instead always said that Serral's overall achievements in 2018>Maru's overall achievements in 2018.
EPT
2018 WCS Montreal
