On September 23 2021 01:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: The thing with taeja is that he is the best teamleague player ever, a factor which oftentimes gets overlooked in these discussions as if teamleagues weren't a big factor in sc2's history.
Maru and INno also have pretty ridiculous teamleague achievements as well. Especially if you include playoffs in the all-time proleague stats which liquipedia doesn't for some reason).
Hell, Maru has proleague runs that are comparable to Taeja's in IPL.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
Right now I agree that GSL doesn't have the best players anymore. Back in 2018 however when Serral won GSL vs the world, GSL definitely still was the hardest tournament to win as we still had Stats, TY, Inno, soO, Classic, herO, Dear, Gumiho etc. and the foreign scene still only had Serral (and Neeb though he wasn't that good anymore).
So I don't understand the point that because GSL isn't that hard to win anymore right now we should devalue all GSL wins in the past
On September 23 2021 01:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: The thing with taeja is that he is the best teamleague player ever, a factor which oftentimes gets overlooked in these discussions as if teamleagues weren't a big factor in sc2's history.
Maru and INno also have pretty ridiculous teamleague achievements as well. Especially if you include playoffs in the all-time proleague stats which liquipedia doesn't for some reason).
Hell, Maru has proleague runs that are comparable to Taeja's in IPL.
That’s why he was a viable GOAT candidate even before the insane GSL runs, with the OSL / SSL win and the superb team league performances. The fact that he was relevant even during kespa days and not only when Terran was strong is also a good point over Rogue, now that he has the GSLs as well.
We have always valued tournaments and placements differently. However, I find my point of view to be much more similar to Charoisaur's than it was three years ago, I'm starting to find his rankings more reasonable.
Thus said, stating that Serral doesn't have the achievements to even be considered in the top 10 is at this point frankly insulting(for me he's easily top5, maybe top 3 but I can understand diverging opinions to a certain extent). Let's remove completely Serral's victories in WCS/DH EU: we are left with EIGHT Premier victories which include one BlizzCon, two GSL vs the World, two HSC and three(online) DH Season Finals, FOUR second places(WESG included) and two ro4 at IEM Katowice amoung countless ro8 and Major victories; not to mention the best record in the history of Nation Wars and Finland winning one essentially because of Serral himself.
This, alone, should be enough; if we add his WCS titles we also realize that he's the winningest player in the history of Sc2. What if we factor in his dominance and his streaks? Of course, if you go down the path for which GSL vs the World is a joke, HSC are drinking contests, Prince would have swept the Circuit in 2018 and online tournaments cannot count because they are online(essentially, only GSL and World Championship count anything) you see Serral as greatly diminished but it's far too convenient(and wrong) of an argument to ever be taken into consideration.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
Right now I agree that GSL doesn't have the best players anymore. Back in 2018 however when Serral won GSL vs the world, GSL definitely still was the hardest tournament to win as we still had Stats, TY, Inno, soO, Classic, herO, Dear, Gumiho etc. and the foreign scene still only had Serral (and Neeb though he wasn't that good anymore).
So I don't understand the point that because GSL isn't that hard to win anymore right now we should devalue all GSL wins in the past
I never said anything even remotely close to that... I made a point of showing different people have different values on what different tournaments/ leagues count in their respective opinions. I even made a point to include "ANYMORE", as in "it was this way in the past, it might not be this way today"
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
It’s not just a departure of players either, even legends who’ve remained and have prestigious titles no longer look capable of winning a title.
Inno’s last channelling of the proper machine was that last WESG he picked up, did people really think he’d rediscover the magic and take another Code S in the last bit of his career? I certainly hoped so but it never looked likely. Likewise sOs for some time, likewise Zest for some time etc etc. TY’s imminent military service propelled him to some great runs, but he’s more the exception that proves the rule.
Zest has flickered into life lately in Code S so we’ll see what he does this season, and he had those Katowice runs too.
If WCS had a big one, then two and now a clear big three, Code S isn’t really all that far behind of late. So tournaments where those two groups get to duke it out are pretty valuable.
I think a lot hinges on how Classic/herO/Gumiho get back into things, or if Bunny, Cure and Zoun can keep on an upward curve.
But speaking globally I think there’s a tier of players above everyone really across the global scene. Then below that you have the best of the rest in Code S, then it’s the best of the rest in EU.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
But speaking globally I think there’s a tier of players above everyone really across the global scene. Then below that you have the best of the rest in Code S, then it’s the best of the rest in EU.
Yes, very good assessment, and overall agree with you.
And to QOG - I also still think its a top competition that is for sure, but regarding if its better or worse than it was quality wise and easier or harder to win, I think the decline here is crystal clear. So many players, former champions, top players retired and didnt return and they were never truly replaced with champ caliber players. I mean I like Zoun, Bunny and Cure dont get me wrong but at their current level they are not winning any tournament which would consist of the likes of Maru, Rogue, Dark, Serral. And the returning players are former greats, but we cant be sure what kind of level they can get to once they shape up their skills. Do you see her0 or Gumiho challenge the best tier of players? Maybe, but so far I am not that optimistic. Fingers crossed though, Korea really needs some additional top competition
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
In terms of GSL for, quite some time even Zest is a 1.5. Although I think he’s in good shape currently and might return to the top tier.
Group selection makes things more intriguing in GSL, if brackets were just straight seeded we’d see a similar dominance of 4 players as we see in 3 in Europe.
This season to take a really obvious example. Trap and Maru and Rogue and Dark played off this season, in the Ro8. Is anyone going to argue that they’re not the top 4 currently, by a distance?
How is it extremely generous to put Showtime and Lambo as a 1.5 tier player, but Solar who hasn’t made playoffs in how long isn’t?
Zoun is good but hasn’t done a huge amount in GSL, great ST performances. Dream at his best is really good, likewise Cure. Bunny is showing some real form and is on an upward curve, Parting can make some deep runs.
One of that group could win a GSL with bracket luck, even with that I have my doubts. (famous last words) Cure or Bunny aren’t exactly favoured against Dark or Rogue, or Maru, and GSL Trap should smack them. Parting is fine if he avoids Rogue or Dark, who should absolutely eviscerate him.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
The KESPA system was long dead outside of JinAir Greenwings by the time Serral rose to prominence so that idea is bunk, and even if it wasn't, Byun did that first by becoming the first back to major title holder that wasn't a part of a team house, he did that first WAY before Serral came along, so why is Serral getting the credit for that?
Oh yea, because Byun's Korean. That's why.
Face it dude, the fact he's not Korean is the reason people give him THIS level of hype and praise. Serral is great, I'm not saying he's not, and he's easily the best of the non-Korean players that have played this game, but that bias that because he isn't Korean needs to stop, it only makes Serral worse because he's now being associated with a bunch of irrational fans that keep putting him on a pedestal he hasn't earned.
Serral is great, he can potentially EARN the pedestal that Rotterdam and others put him on, but he isn't there yet, his slump that's occured ever since Zerg was nerfed PROVES that.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
The KESPA system was long dead outside of JinAir Greenwings by the time Serral rose to prominence so that idea is bunk, and even if it wasn't, Byun did that first by becoming the first back to major title holder that wasn't a part of a team house, he did that first WAY before Serral came along, so why is Serral getting the credit for that?
Oh yea, because Byun's Korean. That's why.
Face it dude, the fact he's not Korean is the reason people give him THIS level of hype and praise. Serral is great, I'm not saying he's not, and he's easily the best of the non-Korean players that have played this game, but that bias that because he isn't Korean needs to stop, it only makes Serral worse because he's now being associated with a bunch of irrational fans that keep putting him on a pedestal he hasn't earned.
Serral is great, he can potentially EARN the pedestal that Rotterdam and others put him on, but he isn't there yet, his slump that's occured ever since Zerg was nerfed PROVES that.
The Byun story is also great, granted he was on Prime and has played since forever, but he made a breakthrough doing things his way and that’s great.
It’s not just not being in a team house, it’s never being in a team house. I mean does Rain winning a Starleague and being the first guy in a foreign team to do so really outweigh that he was actually in SKT forever?
I think Byun’s story is absolutely one of the most interesting and emotionally impactful in the scene, genuinely amazing stuff. I think he’s a bit underrated given the difficulty of his path to glory.
Serral did what Byun did with no real Korean exposure whatsoever, no team house, no network of top Korean buddies to play with, none of that.
Which is also pretty insane.
If irrational fans want to be irrational and annoying, well they’ll do that. I’ll continue to try and respect the amazing achievements of all of these dedicated players as best I can.
On September 24 2021 05:32 WombaT wrote: How is it extremely generous to put Showtime and Lambo as a 1.5 tier player, but Solar who hasn’t made playoffs in how long isn’t?
Solar is actually a great example of the level of GSL. You're right that he hasn't made the playoffs in years. But here's just a few of his achievements:
3x GSL Super Tournament Bronzes 3x NeXT Event Silvers 2x HomeStory Cup Silver, 1x Bronze 1x ASUS ROG Silver, 1x Bronze
And that's a small selection that ignores, among other things, his Team achievements. So yeah, the guy who is probably the weakest of the "Tier 1.5" players I listed would be a top 3/4 player in any region other than Korea.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
Yeah I don't think anyone thinks GSL is easier to win than an EU tournament. However global tournaments with both eu and korean players are definitely more competitive than the GSL right now with 7/8 players who are likely to win
On September 23 2021 20:06 WombaT wrote: [quote] That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
Yeah I don't think anyone thinks GSL is easier to win than an EU tournament. However global tournaments with both eu and korean players are definitely more competitive than the GSL right now with 7/8 players who are likely to win
Well, yeah, thats because GSL contenders are now only around 10-deep roster, and adding in 4-5 top EU players and 1-2 AM players would make the tournament more competitive.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
The KESPA system was long dead outside of JinAir Greenwings by the time Serral rose to prominence so that idea is bunk, and even if it wasn't, Byun did that first by becoming the first back to major title holder that wasn't a part of a team house, he did that first WAY before Serral came along, so why is Serral getting the credit for that?
Oh yea, because Byun's Korean. That's why.
Face it dude, the fact he's not Korean is the reason people give him THIS level of hype and praise. Serral is great, I'm not saying he's not, and he's easily the best of the non-Korean players that have played this game, but that bias that because he isn't Korean needs to stop, it only makes Serral worse because he's now being associated with a bunch of irrational fans that keep putting him on a pedestal he hasn't earned.
Serral is great, he can potentially EARN the pedestal that Rotterdam and others put him on, but he isn't there yet, his slump that's occured ever since Zerg was nerfed PROVES that.
The Byun story is also great, granted he was on Prime and has played since forever, but he made a breakthrough doing things his way and that’s great.
It’s not just not being in a team house, it’s never being in a team house. I mean does Rain winning a Starleague and being the first guy in a foreign team to do so really outweigh that he was actually in SKT forever?
I think Byun’s story is absolutely one of the most interesting and emotionally impactful in the scene, genuinely amazing stuff. I think he’s a bit underrated given the difficulty of his path to glory.
Serral did what Byun did with no real Korean exposure whatsoever, no team house, no network of top Korean buddies to play with, none of that.
Which is also pretty insane.
If irrational fans want to be irrational and annoying, well they’ll do that. I’ll continue to try and respect the amazing achievements of all of these dedicated players as best I can.
You have just replied to one irrational and annoying anti-fan who's insinuating that Serral's reputation is not deserved.
Byun's 2016 was great but Serral wasn't only more dominant and won more during his best year; Serral kept winning, at least one title in the following three years, and when he did not win, he showcased mindblowing consistency(years of not placing below ro8 should impress even a hater).
Serral was so affected by nerfs to Zerg that his best matchup became his worst, and that matchup is ZvZ... Look at Dark, he has won almost half of his titles, surely the most relevant ones, when Zerg were really broken then faded into obscurity the following year(before resurfacing) and Vindicare would be horrified at the mere suspect balance could have played any role in that. Still he's here, certain that Serral reverting to the average world class player is a certified proof of patchzergness.
People don't think Serral is so amazing because he's not korean(which, as Wombat pointed out, surely made his ascension to power less likely considering how the previous 8 years of Sc2 and 10 of BW went) but a certain group of Sc2 fans enamored of the idea of innate and unshakable superiority of Korea are surely blind to the magnitude of Serral's successes because he's not.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
The KESPA system was long dead outside of JinAir Greenwings by the time Serral rose to prominence so that idea is bunk, and even if it wasn't, Byun did that first by becoming the first back to major title holder that wasn't a part of a team house, he did that first WAY before Serral came along, so why is Serral getting the credit for that?
Oh yea, because Byun's Korean. That's why.
Face it dude, the fact he's not Korean is the reason people give him THIS level of hype and praise. Serral is great, I'm not saying he's not, and he's easily the best of the non-Korean players that have played this game, but that bias that because he isn't Korean needs to stop, it only makes Serral worse because he's now being associated with a bunch of irrational fans that keep putting him on a pedestal he hasn't earned.
Serral is great, he can potentially EARN the pedestal that Rotterdam and others put him on, but he isn't there yet, his slump that's occured ever since Zerg was nerfed PROVES that.
The Byun story is also great, granted he was on Prime and has played since forever, but he made a breakthrough doing things his way and that’s great.
It’s not just not being in a team house, it’s never being in a team house. I mean does Rain winning a Starleague and being the first guy in a foreign team to do so really outweigh that he was actually in SKT forever?
I think Byun’s story is absolutely one of the most interesting and emotionally impactful in the scene, genuinely amazing stuff. I think he’s a bit underrated given the difficulty of his path to glory.
Serral did what Byun did with no real Korean exposure whatsoever, no team house, no network of top Korean buddies to play with, none of that.
Which is also pretty insane.
If irrational fans want to be irrational and annoying, well they’ll do that. I’ll continue to try and respect the amazing achievements of all of these dedicated players as best I can.
Look at Dark, he has won almost half of his titles, surely the most relevant ones, when Zerg were really broken then faded into obscurity the following year(before resurfacing)
yeah true but Dark also was the best Zerg in the world (or even best player) in 2016 when Zerg was the worst race and was robbed of Blizzcon by Reapers being broken, so of course nobody is calling him a patchzerg
EPT
