and that Serral gets the insane hype he gets from casters because he's a foreigner is undeniable imo. I mean, we can all agree that no caster would ever call him the definitive Goat if he was korean, they don't even do it with Maru who, you agree, is more accomplished than Serral.
On September 24 2021 05:32 WombaT wrote: How is it extremely generous to put Showtime and Lambo as a 1.5 tier player, but Solar who hasn’t made playoffs in how long isn’t?
Solar is actually a great example of the level of GSL. You're right that he hasn't made the playoffs in years. But here's just a few of his achievements:
3x GSL Super Tournament Bronzes 3x NeXT Event Silvers 2x HomeStory Cup Silver, 1x Bronze 1x ASUS ROG Silver, 1x Bronze
And that's a small selection that ignores, among other things, his Team achievements. So yeah, the guy who is probably the weakest of the "Tier 1.5" players I listed would be a top 3/4 player in any region other than Korea.
Solar is very good, and speaks to the general level in Code S, which I do rate higher than other regions in terms of average players.
In terms of realistic title contenders there’s not a huge gap between WCS and GSL, there did used to be. If you say it’s a stretch to put Lambo into a tier 1.5, when he’s made a finals recently, well a guy like Solar has got nowhere near was my only point.
And WCS has a considerably less volatile format as well, a group gauntlet across days and bracket seeding in playoffs from that vs the GSL’s cutthroat groups and then group selections.
If you swapped those formats around Maru, Trap, Rogue and Dark are probably even more prominent in playoffs and you’d have more seasons where a Serral or a Reynor missed making Ro4s.
I like the GSL format more when there’s a slew of title challengers, you have to be on your game as you can have a bad day and be gone. When there’s not, well not so much.
I respect these players greatly, so not naming names in case it seems I’m not but you’re having players make Ro4s on favourable brackets and getting absolutely crushed by the first genuine title challenger they face.
If we go back years, yes it might be a miracle run or unexpected but generally if you were good enough to make it through the Ro4, you were good enough to go on and win the thing.
Anyway I don’t mean to diss the Korean pros, and actually some of them I don’t consider Code S contenders are capable of running a weekender gauntlet. It’s dangerous talking like this when he’s in Ro4 but Zest hasn’t looked championship tier in Code S specifically but he still brought the pain in Katowices. Byun has taken a stacked premier weekender since his return but looks nowhere near Code S calibre yet.
So it’s not just bringing Serral and Reynor into the fold these international weekenders, some of the Koreans become contenders too when for whatever reason they’re not in Code S.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
Clem is no way at the level of Koreas top 4 or even Serral, despite beating him couple times recently. I would say the combined Tiers currently are:
Tier 1 - Maru, Rogue, Dark, Trap, Serral, Reynor (its a question mark for me still, would put him somewhere in between first 2 tiers but okay he really had some very good results) Tier 1.5 - Clem, Zest, Cure Tier 2 - Solar, Parting, Dream, Bunny, Zoun, DRG, Heromarine Tier 2.5 - Lambo, Showtime, Neeb, Scarlett
And the logic would be the differences between Tier 1 and Tier 2 are quite large, with Tears 1.5 and 2.5 being closer to their respective main Tear numbers, but not quite there yet = e.g. it would not be a massive upset seeing Showtime or Lambo beat Heromarine or Parting, but they would not be favorites
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
The KESPA system was long dead outside of JinAir Greenwings by the time Serral rose to prominence so that idea is bunk, and even if it wasn't, Byun did that first by becoming the first back to major title holder that wasn't a part of a team house, he did that first WAY before Serral came along, so why is Serral getting the credit for that?
Oh yea, because Byun's Korean. That's why.
Face it dude, the fact he's not Korean is the reason people give him THIS level of hype and praise. Serral is great, I'm not saying he's not, and he's easily the best of the non-Korean players that have played this game, but that bias that because he isn't Korean needs to stop, it only makes Serral worse because he's now being associated with a bunch of irrational fans that keep putting him on a pedestal he hasn't earned.
Serral is great, he can potentially EARN the pedestal that Rotterdam and others put him on, but he isn't there yet, his slump that's occured ever since Zerg was nerfed PROVES that.
The Byun story is also great, granted he was on Prime and has played since forever, but he made a breakthrough doing things his way and that’s great.
It’s not just not being in a team house, it’s never being in a team house. I mean does Rain winning a Starleague and being the first guy in a foreign team to do so really outweigh that he was actually in SKT forever?
I think Byun’s story is absolutely one of the most interesting and emotionally impactful in the scene, genuinely amazing stuff. I think he’s a bit underrated given the difficulty of his path to glory.
Serral did what Byun did with no real Korean exposure whatsoever, no team house, no network of top Korean buddies to play with, none of that.
Which is also pretty insane.
If irrational fans want to be irrational and annoying, well they’ll do that. I’ll continue to try and respect the amazing achievements of all of these dedicated players as best I can.
You have just replied to one irrational and annoying anti-fan who's insinuating that Serral's reputation is not deserved.
Byun's 2016 was great but Serral wasn't only more dominant and won more during his best year; Serral kept winning, at least one title in the following three years, and when he did not win, he showcased mindblowing consistency(years of not placing below ro8 should impress even a hater).
Serral was so affected by nerfs to Zerg that his best matchup became his worst, and that matchup is ZvZ... Look at Dark, he has won almost half of his titles, surely the most relevant ones, when Zerg were really broken then faded into obscurity the following year(before resurfacing) and Vindicare would be horrified at the mere suspect balance could have played any role in that. Still he's here, certain that Serral reverting to the average world class player is a certified proof of patchzergness.
People don't think Serral is so amazing because he's not korean(which, as Wombat pointed out, surely made his ascension to power less likely considering how the previous 8 years of Sc2 and 10 of BW went) but a certain group of Sc2 fans enamored of the idea of innate and unshakable superiority of Korea are surely blind to the magnitude of Serral's successes because he's not.
Sometimes it’s not even a case of balance, it’s what metas suit your particular style. People can talk a bit myopically about OP or UP, that’s part of it sure.
To take extreme examples, Terran can still be in a strong place but if mech is terrible, Gumiho’s going to have a pretty bad time even if his race is good. Or if ling/bane/muta is sucking balls, DRG’s not going to enjoy that meta even if Zerg is otherwise doing well with other styles.
In less extreme examples, Serral/Dark/Rogue to me have a pretty similar baseline, there’ll be fluctuations depending on what’s in vogue.
When ZvZ was more predictable roach war into lurker/viper lategames and grinding out those late games Serral was pretty untouchable at doing that. When it’s more varied with trickery and tech switches and more aggressive, Dark and Rogue thrive more there. Note ofc that this is only comparing those players, they’re of a certain level, Serral’s lategame reactive play may be slightly better than Dark’s say, but Dark’s still a level above basically everyone else in that domain.
Likewise other matchups, or other races. It’s not possible to be the best at every particular style or approach, so what is strong at any given time is important too. If Protoss’ options in PvT massively suit hyper aggressive play a Parting will thrive in that meta, but if they shift to a deflecting everything defensive macro style then Stats will do better.
On September 23 2021 20:06 WombaT wrote: [quote] That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
Clem is nowhere near the level of Koreas top 4 or even Serral, despite beating him couple times recently. I would say the combined Tiers currently are:
Tier 1 - Maru, Rogue, Dark, Trap, Serral, Reynor (its a question mark for me still, would put him somewhere in between first 2 tiers but okay he really had some very good results) Tier 1.5 - Clem, Zest, Cure Tier 2 - Solar, Parting, Dream, Bunny, Zoun, DRG, Heromarine Tier 2.5 - Lambo, Showtime, Neeb, Scarlett
And the logic would be the differences between Tier 1 and Tier 2 are quite large, with Tears 1.5 and 2.5 being closer to their respective main Tear numbers, but not quite there yet = e.g. it would not be a massive upset seeing Showtime or Lambo beat Heromarine or Parting, but they would not be favorites
I can get mostly behind that. Maybe put Neeb and Parting one tier up and add Astrea in 2.5. But with these Protosses you'll never quite know what you get
On September 24 2021 18:30 Charoisaur wrote: and that Serral gets the insane hype he gets from casters because he's a foreigner is undeniable imo. I mean, we can all agree that no caster would ever call him the definitive Goat if he was korean, they don't even do it with Maru who, you agree, is more accomplished than Serral.
Dark, of course, is not a patchzerg; thinking that Serral was somehow carried by his race is at least just as absurd.
Serral's hype is mostly justified and it was entirely justified when he was dominating Sc2; casters aren't completely neutral and you can tell some of them has a favourite player or is biased towards a certain race.
I guess EU casters being friends with or at least sharing the same ladder with non korean pros might lead them to favor local players; you should ask them. Does this annoy you? Imagine how annoyed can be someone coming on Tl.net and reading countless posts celebrating great korean players more than it would be legit, it happens often.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
The KESPA system was long dead outside of JinAir Greenwings by the time Serral rose to prominence so that idea is bunk, and even if it wasn't, Byun did that first by becoming the first back to major title holder that wasn't a part of a team house, he did that first WAY before Serral came along, so why is Serral getting the credit for that?
Oh yea, because Byun's Korean. That's why.
Face it dude, the fact he's not Korean is the reason people give him THIS level of hype and praise. Serral is great, I'm not saying he's not, and he's easily the best of the non-Korean players that have played this game, but that bias that because he isn't Korean needs to stop, it only makes Serral worse because he's now being associated with a bunch of irrational fans that keep putting him on a pedestal he hasn't earned.
Serral is great, he can potentially EARN the pedestal that Rotterdam and others put him on, but he isn't there yet, his slump that's occured ever since Zerg was nerfed PROVES that.
The Byun story is also great, granted he was on Prime and has played since forever, but he made a breakthrough doing things his way and that’s great.
It’s not just not being in a team house, it’s never being in a team house. I mean does Rain winning a Starleague and being the first guy in a foreign team to do so really outweigh that he was actually in SKT forever?
I think Byun’s story is absolutely one of the most interesting and emotionally impactful in the scene, genuinely amazing stuff. I think he’s a bit underrated given the difficulty of his path to glory.
Serral did what Byun did with no real Korean exposure whatsoever, no team house, no network of top Korean buddies to play with, none of that.
Which is also pretty insane.
If irrational fans want to be irrational and annoying, well they’ll do that. I’ll continue to try and respect the amazing achievements of all of these dedicated players as best I can.
Stephano did the same a way back though: foreigner that won tournaments against Korean opposition and even shaped the meta himself.
On September 23 2021 19:36 MarianoSC2 wrote: Exactly spot on Chairosaur, JJ and Vindi. Completely agree. Its insane how overhyped Serral is just because he is a foreigner. Have to watch all Roterdams casts on mute he is so pathetic mentioning Serral and Reynor all the time they dont even have to be playing, very unprofessional. And if they are playing sometimes the casters dont even notice there is another player in the game as well...
And deluded fanboys get offended if someone completely justified does not put Serral in the top 10 GOAT list? What for FFS? He won 1 big tournament... 1! Has been playing for 5 years. Is someone seriously that ignorant and clueless about this games competition that they would put him above the titan veterans such as Classic, Stats, Zest, Dark, or legends such as MVP or MC who completely redefined the game and achieved glory during the times when the competition was the most fierce and the game most volatile? I cant even... Its insane that so many people can be this stupid and it makes me mad, sorry for the rage :/
That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
The KESPA system was long dead outside of JinAir Greenwings by the time Serral rose to prominence so that idea is bunk, and even if it wasn't, Byun did that first by becoming the first back to major title holder that wasn't a part of a team house, he did that first WAY before Serral came along, so why is Serral getting the credit for that?
Oh yea, because Byun's Korean. That's why.
Face it dude, the fact he's not Korean is the reason people give him THIS level of hype and praise. Serral is great, I'm not saying he's not, and he's easily the best of the non-Korean players that have played this game, but that bias that because he isn't Korean needs to stop, it only makes Serral worse because he's now being associated with a bunch of irrational fans that keep putting him on a pedestal he hasn't earned.
Serral is great, he can potentially EARN the pedestal that Rotterdam and others put him on, but he isn't there yet, his slump that's occured ever since Zerg was nerfed PROVES that.
The Byun story is also great, granted he was on Prime and has played since forever, but he made a breakthrough doing things his way and that’s great.
It’s not just not being in a team house, it’s never being in a team house. I mean does Rain winning a Starleague and being the first guy in a foreign team to do so really outweigh that he was actually in SKT forever?
I think Byun’s story is absolutely one of the most interesting and emotionally impactful in the scene, genuinely amazing stuff. I think he’s a bit underrated given the difficulty of his path to glory.
Serral did what Byun did with no real Korean exposure whatsoever, no team house, no network of top Korean buddies to play with, none of that.
Which is also pretty insane.
If irrational fans want to be irrational and annoying, well they’ll do that. I’ll continue to try and respect the amazing achievements of all of these dedicated players as best I can.
Stephano did the same a way back though: foreigner that won tournaments against Korean opposition and even shaped the meta himself.
Stephano was a total baller, I think in retrospect his main legacy was shaping the meta at the top level.
The tournament scene was really different too, Stephano was breaking barriers when it was a real smattering of S level Koreans on top of the ‘Koreans who played foreign tournaments’. When even the Koreans who weren’t really cutting it in Code S were still a level above the foreign scene.
Not to downplay anything Stephano did in the game at all.
If the ceiling he broke was winning tournaments against Koreans, the ceiling Serral broke was winning tournaments against the best Koreans and being their peer.
It was such a radically different scene though, stuff gets tricky to compare. I wonder how a Stephano’s journey or someone like Idra would be different if the current WCS format had been a thing further back.
On September 23 2021 20:06 WombaT wrote: [quote] That level of bias is infuriating to me anyway in casts. It’s wrong, and is unnecessary and to non-SC2 vets it’s often counter-productive in hyping a game too. To a newbie, say Serral is playing Stats rather than the match being framed as a clash of two greats of the game, it’s the GOAT against some random Korean bloke.
That said, being a foreigner isn’t just about not being Korean, it’s about competing against people who were in full time practice houses, or subsequently were products of that system that in Starcraft terms had been basically unbeatable since the days of Grr. Which isn’t an insignificant barrier to break, look how few Koreans are coming through now.
Plus Serral had at one point, probably still has the highest win rate vs Koreans of any player, either in general or in Premiers, can’t remember which. Also pretty impressive when we also consider he doesn’t tend to get to play that many weaker Koreans.
Depends how one chooses to weight various factors, Serral being in the top 10 isn’t exactly outrageous though.
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
Clem is no way at the level of Koreas top 4 or even Serral, despite beating him couple times recently. I would say the combined Tiers currently are:
Tier 1 - Maru, Rogue, Dark, Trap, Serral, Reynor (its a question mark for me still, would put him somewhere in between first 2 tiers but okay he really had some very good results) Tier 1.5 - Clem, Zest, Cure Tier 2 - Solar, Parting, Dream, Bunny, Zoun, DRG, Heromarine Tier 2.5 - Lambo, Showtime, Neeb, Scarlett
And the logic would be the differences between Tier 1 and Tier 2 are quite large, with Tears 1.5 and 2.5 being closer to their respective main Tear numbers, but not quite there yet = e.g. it would not be a massive upset seeing Showtime or Lambo beat Heromarine or Parting, but they would not be favorites
On form zest is t1 in my book. He can be sloppy, sometimes inconsistent (rarely this year tho) but he is still a championship contender in each tourney. And while his results are not good, I think solar deserves a t1.5, he is stronger than all the t2 players (except parting maybe because he'll fall for his tricks) but that's arguable for sure. Otherwise I agree. Reynor is a clear t1 player tho, he is the best performing zerg this year, winning kato, a dh global, a close final of the super stacked tsl 7 and dh eu.
On September 24 2021 18:30 Charoisaur wrote: and that Serral gets the insane hype he gets from casters because he's a foreigner is undeniable imo. I mean, we can all agree that no caster would ever call him the definitive Goat if he was korean, they don't even do it with Maru who, you agree, is more accomplished than Serral.
Dark, of course, is not a patchzerg; thinking that Serral was somehow carried by his race is at least just as absurd.
Serral's hype is mostly justified and it was entirely justified when he was dominating Sc2; casters aren't completely neutral and you can tell some of them has a favourite player or is biased towards a certain race.
I guess EU casters being friends with or at least sharing the same ladder with non korean pros might lead them to favor local players; you should ask them. Does this annoy you? Imagine how annoyed can be someone coming on Tl.net and reading countless posts celebrating great korean players more than it would be legit, it happens often.
Comparing annoyance from forum comments who still acknowledge Serral is good just not a GOAT or anywhere near it to comments from every single popular caster saying Serral is the GOAT while not acknowledging KR pros in that way at all... One is a completely avoidable forum with a few hundred users most of whom don't post. One happens during official tournament streams that tens of thousands are watching.
I can't imagine how hard it is for you to deal with. You must go through so much mental anguish subjecting yourself to these posts. Reading comments in the one SC2 discussion place that isn't completely foreigner favored (twitch, Reddit, and blizz forums are all filled with Serral = goat fans) must really take a toll.
On September 24 2021 18:30 Charoisaur wrote: and that Serral gets the insane hype he gets from casters because he's a foreigner is undeniable imo. I mean, we can all agree that no caster would ever call him the definitive Goat if he was korean, they don't even do it with Maru who, you agree, is more accomplished than Serral.
Dark, of course, is not a patchzerg; thinking that Serral was somehow carried by his race is at least just as absurd.
Serral's hype is mostly justified and it was entirely justified when he was dominating Sc2; casters aren't completely neutral and you can tell some of them has a favourite player or is biased towards a certain race.
I guess EU casters being friends with or at least sharing the same ladder with non korean pros might lead them to favor local players; you should ask them. Does this annoy you? Imagine how annoyed can be someone coming on Tl.net and reading countless posts celebrating great korean players more than it would be legit, it happens often.
There you go putting words in my mouth again Xainon. There you go, you just can't help yourself from doing it.
I've never once said that Serral was "carried" by his race. I've never once said that, and you cannot find a single thread where I have said that.
What I've said is that Serral has ONLY dominated in eras where Zerg was overpowered, and that's a true statement btw. Players like Maru, Rogue and even Dark to a lesser extent have had great success, even if in Dark's case they weren't actual titles when Zerg WASN'T clearly overpowered. Even Reynor has had a higher degree of success after Zerg was nerfed than Serral has.
That makes his "undeniable dominance" have a massive asterisk next to it. Yea sure Serral had a fantastic run, no one is saying he didn't, but his run can't possibly make him the GOAT, if he can't do it again when Zerg is clearly not in an advantaged state. I don't see how you can possibly argue with that. If Serral is as great as you think he is, why shouldn't he be held to the same standards that other greats in this game have like Flash or Jaedong. That's what it means to be the GOAT dude. We're not arguing who is just a great player, we are arguing who the GOAT is and in that argument the standards are SIGNIFICANTLY higher.
If you can't understand that paragraph I just wrote, then honestly you should just stay away from these discussions because you don't know how to have them. You're too biased. As I've told you numerous times, I was a MASSIVE fan of Serral when he was first coming up, I only started to be on the other side of all of this because fans like you want to elevate him above where he should be for completely irrational reasons, and even if YOU won't admit it, it's obvious to the rest of us that you're only doing it because he's white. You'd never go to bat like this for any Korean player.
On September 23 2021 20:34 MarianoSC2 wrote: [quote]
Completely agree and very interesting point with the perception of foreigners in this game.
Regarding the top10 I think its very outrageous and insulting to many top players who invested in the game a lot more and also accomplished a lot more and just because they are not on the top right now and they were not foreigners they are being easily overlooked. Honestly, skill wise, peak wise, Serral belongs in top 5 of all time, but he is just missing the accomplishments. Also to Harris, StarLeagues (GSL, SSL, OSL..) and WCs are 1000 heads and shoulders above all the other tournaments, its just like with any other sports (WCs and CL in football, GSlams in tennis...) and Serral has 1 title from this category. Yes, if he would have played these tournaments he would probably be in that top 5 already, but he hasnt and so including him in any kind of GOAT discussion is pointless, stupid and insulting.
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
Clem is no way at the level of Koreas top 4 or even Serral, despite beating him couple times recently. I would say the combined Tiers currently are:
Tier 1 - Maru, Rogue, Dark, Trap, Serral, Reynor (its a question mark for me still, would put him somewhere in between first 2 tiers but okay he really had some very good results) Tier 1.5 - Clem, Zest, Cure Tier 2 - Solar, Parting, Dream, Bunny, Zoun, DRG, Heromarine Tier 2.5 - Lambo, Showtime, Neeb, Scarlett
And the logic would be the differences between Tier 1 and Tier 2 are quite large, with Tears 1.5 and 2.5 being closer to their respective main Tear numbers, but not quite there yet = e.g. it would not be a massive upset seeing Showtime or Lambo beat Heromarine or Parting, but they would not be favorites
On form zest is t1 in my book. He can be sloppy, sometimes inconsistent (rarely this year tho) but he is still a championship contender in each tourney. And while his results are not good, I think solar deserves a t1.5, he is stronger than all the t2 players (except parting maybe because he'll fall for his tricks) but that's arguable for sure. Otherwise I agree. Reynor is a clear t1 player tho, he is the best performing zerg this year, winning kato, a dh global, a close final of the super stacked tsl 7 and dh eu.
Its quite interesting about Zest, because I think overall hes a better Protoss than Trap. But Trap has achieved far more than Zest so far this year, and that is undeniable. I just feel Zest got a lot of tough draw (like Parting in Code A last season, or same group with Serral&Maru in NeXT, then Reynor&Maru in DH Summer) which justify his lack of accomplishment this year so far. As for Solar, I dont think he can be tier 1.5 because he only made 4 Ro8 (or better) for the last 2 years. We all know what Solar is capable of, in term of beating any of tier 1 guy. But he also can drop series in the most frustrating way to all the other tiers as well. Remember what Rogue did to lose the game against Maru in game 6 of the Final, making 10 more Drone right before a hellbat push? Solar lost that way A LOT of time iirc, he just throw down double evo, making 80-90 drone,or simply late on the Baneling Nest, either because he didnt scout, or he just miss the tech. He also died quite a lot of times to Proxy Racks from TY/Maru/Byun.
On September 23 2021 20:43 Harris1st wrote: [quote]
Well, Serral does have 2 GSL titles making the total count of at least 3 wins with your criteria. Still not a lot but it's start.
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
Clem is no way at the level of Koreas top 4 or even Serral, despite beating him couple times recently. I would say the combined Tiers currently are:
Tier 1 - Maru, Rogue, Dark, Trap, Serral, Reynor (its a question mark for me still, would put him somewhere in between first 2 tiers but okay he really had some very good results) Tier 1.5 - Clem, Zest, Cure Tier 2 - Solar, Parting, Dream, Bunny, Zoun, DRG, Heromarine Tier 2.5 - Lambo, Showtime, Neeb, Scarlett
And the logic would be the differences between Tier 1 and Tier 2 are quite large, with Tears 1.5 and 2.5 being closer to their respective main Tear numbers, but not quite there yet = e.g. it would not be a massive upset seeing Showtime or Lambo beat Heromarine or Parting, but they would not be favorites
On form zest is t1 in my book. He can be sloppy, sometimes inconsistent (rarely this year tho) but he is still a championship contender in each tourney. And while his results are not good, I think solar deserves a t1.5, he is stronger than all the t2 players (except parting maybe because he'll fall for his tricks) but that's arguable for sure. Otherwise I agree. Reynor is a clear t1 player tho, he is the best performing zerg this year, winning kato, a dh global, a close final of the super stacked tsl 7 and dh eu.
Its quite interesting about Zest, because I think overall hes a better Protoss than Trap. But Trap has achieved far more than Zest so far this year, and that is undeniable. I just feel Zest got a lot of tough draw (like Parting in Code A last season, or same group with Serral&Maru in NeXT, then Reynor&Maru in DH Summer) which justify his lack of accomplishment this year so far. As for Solar, I dont think he can be tier 1.5 because he only made 4 Ro8 (or better) for the last 2 years. We all know what Solar is capable of, in term of beating any of tier 1 guy. But he also can drop series in the most frustrating way to all the other tiers as well. Remember what Rogue did to lose the game against Maru in game 6 of the Final, making 10 more Drone right before a hellbat push? Solar lost that way A LOT of time iirc, he just throw down double evo, making 80-90 drone,or simply late on the Baneling Nest, either because he didnt scout, or he just miss the tech. He also died quite a lot of times to Proxy Racks from TY/Maru/Byun.
Zest is just a weird one to me, he can play super sloppy then show up at a tournament with the latest optimised Zest build and wreck face.
Trap is super clean, pretty good at everything execution wise these days, I wouldn’t peg him as super creative but it seems in this phase of the game that skillset gets more results.
On September 23 2021 21:13 MarianoSC2 wrote: [quote]
Dont think GSL vs World and Super Tournaments can be considered the same as Starleagues and WC, but yeah those are big wins as well, I admit. Look, I said I think his skill is up there with the best of the best, just needs a couple more of these titles to really challenge many of the Korean legends of this sport. Which will be tough considering the scene and the competition is declining and may be disbanded in 2-3 years...
Format wise, I agree. GSL does have the edge because of it's special prep format. Player wise I disagree. GSL doesn't have the best players (anymore). That's why, player wise, I think GSL v World and the likes have to be weighed actually heavier than normal GSL. Now, this is my personal opinion and yours can of course differ. I just wanted to make a point that your view is just that: Your view. Not a fact
I agree, GSL is only a shade of its former glory, and with Zest leaving soon, then Rogue next year, 2 of the 6 best players will be gone. I still think the overall player base is stronger in Korea than EU but yeah I know what you mean.
That being said this is the state of the last 2 years only. 2019 or 2018 and before GSL was still the pinnacle of competition.
It still is though. You can debate who the tippest of the top players are, but GSL is still the strongest overall competition. In contrast to the rarely challenged top three in EU and NA, there's a good 8-12 players (depending on your levels of optimism) who are of a level that they could win GSL.
For GSL vs The World, for instance, sure Reynor and Serral dragged the average competitor level up—but there were a bunch of other players from Europe to drag it back down. That's kind of the problem with regional quotas. Not to mention that it was a smaller and much shorter tournament.
As for the whole "players have left for the military thus leaving GSL a husk of its forever self" narrative, players often come back (Classic, Gumiho, and hero being the most recent notable ones—people were doing the same doom and gloom routine when they left) and formerly background players rise up (Zoun, Bunny, etc.).
To be clear, not saying GSL is at or above the level it's been in the past or that the foreign scene doesn't have players as good or better, just that the sheer number of high level competitors in GSL is above any other tournament, making it the most competitive in the world.
There’s clear tiers in GSL now though. It’s borderline 4 players these days who are likely to win a GSL any given season, and one of them hasn’t even won one.
It is still cut throat and high calibre, up to the point of actually winning the thing. There’s less depth, but there’s also this emergence of a clear top tier that’s also changed.
I don't quite agree. Let's look at two groups of players. Tier one is pretty obvious: the players who it's no surprise at all if they win a tournament. Then I'll include what I'm calling Tier 1.5 players, since Tier 2 would imply they're not capabale of winning. They instead could win a big tournament and it wouldn't a shock or anything, but they're more underdogs who would need a good bracket + consistent peak performance to do so.
In contrast, for Europe you have: Tier 1 T: Clem P: N/A Z: Reynor, Serral
Tier 1.5 T: HeroMarine P: ShowTime Z: Lambo
So we get a 3/3. And even that is honestly misleading, as it's extremely generous to put Lambo and ShowTime into the 1.5 category at all.
Therefore my conclusion remains: GSL is still the most competitive tournament around, regardless of whether it's more or less competitive than it was in the past.
Clem is no way at the level of Koreas top 4 or even Serral, despite beating him couple times recently. I would say the combined Tiers currently are:
Tier 1 - Maru, Rogue, Dark, Trap, Serral, Reynor (its a question mark for me still, would put him somewhere in between first 2 tiers but okay he really had some very good results) Tier 1.5 - Clem, Zest, Cure Tier 2 - Solar, Parting, Dream, Bunny, Zoun, DRG, Heromarine Tier 2.5 - Lambo, Showtime, Neeb, Scarlett
And the logic would be the differences between Tier 1 and Tier 2 are quite large, with Tears 1.5 and 2.5 being closer to their respective main Tear numbers, but not quite there yet = e.g. it would not be a massive upset seeing Showtime or Lambo beat Heromarine or Parting, but they would not be favorites
On form zest is t1 in my book. He can be sloppy, sometimes inconsistent (rarely this year tho) but he is still a championship contender in each tourney. And while his results are not good, I think solar deserves a t1.5, he is stronger than all the t2 players (except parting maybe because he'll fall for his tricks) but that's arguable for sure. Otherwise I agree. Reynor is a clear t1 player tho, he is the best performing zerg this year, winning kato, a dh global, a close final of the super stacked tsl 7 and dh eu.
Its quite interesting about Zest, because I think overall hes a better Protoss than Trap. But Trap has achieved far more than Zest so far this year, and that is undeniable. I just feel Zest got a lot of tough draw (like Parting in Code A last season, or same group with Serral&Maru in NeXT, then Reynor&Maru in DH Summer) which justify his lack of accomplishment this year so far. As for Solar, I dont think he can be tier 1.5 because he only made 4 Ro8 (or better) for the last 2 years. We all know what Solar is capable of, in term of beating any of tier 1 guy. But he also can drop series in the most frustrating way to all the other tiers as well. Remember what Rogue did to lose the game against Maru in game 6 of the Final, making 10 more Drone right before a hellbat push? Solar lost that way A LOT of time iirc, he just throw down double evo, making 80-90 drone,or simply late on the Baneling Nest, either because he didnt scout, or he just miss the tech. He also died quite a lot of times to Proxy Racks from TY/Maru/Byun.
Zest is just a weird one to me, he can play super sloppy then show up at a tournament with the latest optimised Zest build and wreck face.
Trap is super clean, pretty good at everything execution wise these days, I wouldn’t peg him as super creative but it seems in this phase of the game that skillset gets more results.
Trap's a mechanical Protoss like Rain, but he lacks the mental fortitude that Rain has for the most part. That's the weak part of his game. In terms of pure mechanics Trap is probably the best Protoss in the game by a significant margin.
Zest however is more like Bisu. He's an innovator. He comes up with the shit that other Protoss players then learn how to perfect. That's why Zest will come out of nowhere and just dominate a tournament and then go quiet after a while. He's solid mechanically and always a threat no matter what, but he isn't at the top level of micro like Parting is, or the general best at mechanics like Trap or timing like Classic is.
On September 24 2021 18:30 Charoisaur wrote: and that Serral gets the insane hype he gets from casters because he's a foreigner is undeniable imo. I mean, we can all agree that no caster would ever call him the definitive Goat if he was korean, they don't even do it with Maru who, you agree, is more accomplished than Serral.
Dark, of course, is not a patchzerg; thinking that Serral was somehow carried by his race is at least just as absurd.
Serral's hype is mostly justified and it was entirely justified when he was dominating Sc2; casters aren't completely neutral and you can tell some of them has a favourite player or is biased towards a certain race.
I guess EU casters being friends with or at least sharing the same ladder with non korean pros might lead them to favor local players; you should ask them. Does this annoy you? Imagine how annoyed can be someone coming on Tl.net and reading countless posts celebrating great korean players more than it would be legit, it happens often.
There you go putting words in my mouth again Xainon. There you go, you just can't help yourself from doing it.
I've never once said that Serral was "carried" by his race. I've never once said that, and you cannot find a single thread where I have said that.
What I've said is that Serral has ONLY dominated in eras where Zerg was overpowered, and that's a true statement btw. Players like Maru, Rogue and even Dark to a lesser extent have had great success, even if in Dark's case they weren't actual titles when Zerg WASN'T clearly overpowered. Even Reynor has had a higher degree of success after Zerg was nerfed than Serral has.
That makes his "undeniable dominance" have a massive asterisk next to it. Yea sure Serral had a fantastic run, no one is saying he didn't, but his run can't possibly make him the GOAT, if he can't do it again when Zerg is clearly not in an advantaged state. I don't see how you can possibly argue with that. If Serral is as great as you think he is, why shouldn't he be held to the same standards that other greats in this game have like Flash or Jaedong. That's what it means to be the GOAT dude. We're not arguing who is just a great player, we are arguing who the GOAT is and in that argument the standards are SIGNIFICANTLY higher.
If you can't understand that paragraph I just wrote, then honestly you should just stay away from these discussions because you don't know how to have them. You're too biased. As I've told you numerous times, I was a MASSIVE fan of Serral when he was first coming up, I only started to be on the other side of all of this because fans like you want to elevate him above where he should be for completely irrational reasons, and even if YOU won't admit it, it's obvious to the rest of us that you're only doing it because he's white. You'd never go to bat like this for any Korean player.
It's pointless. Serral's major successes CAME from a period in which Zerg WAS NOT overpowered, he was. There can't be any discussion if we disagree on that.
Also, Serral dominated more in that year than anyone has ever done in Sc2, how would you expect him to keep that standard for years? He did not disappear after that(like Byun did because of his wrists), he actually won FIVE more international tournaments among with countless placements.
You have not said that he was carried by his race, you were basically implying it. And I have NOT called Serral GOAT, I have actually implied the opposite. Are you sure I am the one who's too biased?
Thinking that I like Serral to this extent only because he's not korean is preposterous; winning what Serral did as a foreigner makes his story more legendary to my eyes but his accomplishments are way too great for people to be blind to them(or should be, at least). Just unlike you said, Serral might downplayed so often on this forum exactly because he's not korean
On September 24 2021 18:30 Charoisaur wrote: and that Serral gets the insane hype he gets from casters because he's a foreigner is undeniable imo. I mean, we can all agree that no caster would ever call him the definitive Goat if he was korean, they don't even do it with Maru who, you agree, is more accomplished than Serral.
Dark, of course, is not a patchzerg; thinking that Serral was somehow carried by his race is at least just as absurd.
Serral's hype is mostly justified and it was entirely justified when he was dominating Sc2; casters aren't completely neutral and you can tell some of them has a favourite player or is biased towards a certain race.
I guess EU casters being friends with or at least sharing the same ladder with non korean pros might lead them to favor local players; you should ask them. Does this annoy you? Imagine how annoyed can be someone coming on Tl.net and reading countless posts celebrating great korean players more than it would be legit, it happens often.
There you go putting words in my mouth again Xainon. There you go, you just can't help yourself from doing it.
I've never once said that Serral was "carried" by his race. I've never once said that, and you cannot find a single thread where I have said that.
What I've said is that Serral has ONLY dominated in eras where Zerg was overpowered, and that's a true statement btw. Players like Maru, Rogue and even Dark to a lesser extent have had great success, even if in Dark's case they weren't actual titles when Zerg WASN'T clearly overpowered. Even Reynor has had a higher degree of success after Zerg was nerfed than Serral has.
That makes his "undeniable dominance" have a massive asterisk next to it. Yea sure Serral had a fantastic run, no one is saying he didn't, but his run can't possibly make him the GOAT, if he can't do it again when Zerg is clearly not in an advantaged state. I don't see how you can possibly argue with that. If Serral is as great as you think he is, why shouldn't he be held to the same standards that other greats in this game have like Flash or Jaedong. That's what it means to be the GOAT dude. We're not arguing who is just a great player, we are arguing who the GOAT is and in that argument the standards are SIGNIFICANTLY higher.
If you can't understand that paragraph I just wrote, then honestly you should just stay away from these discussions because you don't know how to have them. You're too biased. As I've told you numerous times, I was a MASSIVE fan of Serral when he was first coming up, I only started to be on the other side of all of this because fans like you want to elevate him above where he should be for completely irrational reasons, and even if YOU won't admit it, it's obvious to the rest of us that you're only doing it because he's white. You'd never go to bat like this for any Korean player.
It's pointless. Serral's major successes CAME from a period in which Zerg WAS NOT overpowered, he was. There can't be any discussion if we disagree on that.
Also, Serral dominated more in that year than anyone has ever done in Sc2, how would you expect him to keep that standard for years? He did not disappear after that(like Byun did because of his wrists), he actually won FIVE more international tournaments among with countless placements.
You have not said that he was carried by his race, you were basically implying it. And I have NOT called Serral GOAT, I have actually implied the opposite. Are you sure I am the one who's too biased?
Thinking that I like Serral to this extent only because he's not korean is preposterous; winning what Serral did as a foreigner makes his story more legendary to my eyes but his accomplishments are way too great for people to be blind to them(or should be, at least). Just unlike you said, Serral might downplayed so often on this forum exactly because he's not korean
Oh my god that's so rich. You have no idea how you come off to the rest of the community on this site, every conversation I've had with you has confirmed that. Gaslight and pretend you and Serral are victims some more please.
EPT
