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On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable.
I'll again have to underline that details are important. When I speak of "any number of consecutive Code S" I am obviously referring to the three Maru could win in 2018.
GOAT is not about streaks nor about dominance, it's about career achievements; in the last two years and half Maru won a Code S, a Super Tournament, a couple of online tournaments, reached the finals of the Code S twice and the semifinal of IEM Katowice twice(plus other decent runs). He was not far from Inno and Mvp, he should be ahead now; meanwhile, others have progressed more but should still be behind.
If you deduct Serral's first place earnings you should give an equal amount of Protoss players.
And if I am deluded, what can be said about you? Even if we had to take out Serral's 2018(he was effectively undefeated offline for eight months, this is just rejecting a reality you hope you didn't have to witness to...), his pre COVID average performance and achievements are much superior to his current level; you probably have conveniently forgotten, go check again.
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On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable.
Nah it's simpler than that. Zerg was overpowered in 2018 and 2019, it was just that Serral was the first to really show why. He raised the bar for what top tier Zerg was, and since everyone started imitating him it made the absurdity of the race's balance become all too apparent to the point where we had the stupidity that was ALL of 2019.
Looking back on it, and how heavily Zerg has been nerfed and yet still winning championships, it's absurd to me that the game was ever considered anything less than broken during that period, ESPECIALLY with the laughable map pools that Serral won on.
That's the thing about Maru, he's played in so many eras and won so many titles even when he was the only Terran able to compete at the top level because of how badly the game was balanced. His dominance stretches over multiple eras, map pools and metas. Serral really only had one true hot streak and since his race got brought more in line with the others he hasn't been able to get back up to that level. Serral's not the only pro that's had parts like that in his career. Guys like Byun also come to mind. Ever since Byun got Reapers deservedly nerfed he's been a shadow of what his peak looked like, and then the wrist issues only add to that. Same thing with Neeb and Adepts.
Players like Rogue, Maru and even Dark to a lesser extent are really rare in this game. They've been around forever and have won in all kinds of metas and game balances. It's also one of the things that made Innovation so great, he was basically ALWAYS a dominant Terran no matter what the meta or balance was up until recently before he retired.
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I have to agree with XainoN here (what??) that Zerg was not OP in 2018. Serral really was the only Zerg doing that well, GSL had not a single Zerg in the finals all year and in the foreign scene Protoss players were Serral's main opposition up to the last season where Reynor's rise began.
By no metric was Zerg OP that year, the 2019 Zerg dominance happened after the ridicolous Infestor and Nydus buffs.
Anyways Serral wasn't unbeatable like it was already said, he just got good matchups for the 2 tournaments he won vs opposition that didn't have Has in the finals.
8 months unbeaten sounds impressive when you don't consider he faced 90% cannonfodder during that period.
I give Serral one thing and that is that other than peak Inno no player has looked this scary in standard macro games, where everyone knew what he was going to do but still lost to it.
Maru and Rogue are better but rely a lot on trickery.
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On September 20 2021 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I have to agree with XainoN here (what??) that Zerg was not OP in 2018. Serral really was the only Zerg doing that well, GSL had not a single Zerg in the finals all year and in the foreign scene Protoss players were Serral's main opposition up to the last season where Reynor's rise began.
By no metric was Zerg OP that year, the 2019 Zerg dominance happened after the ridicolous Infestor and Nydus buffs.
Anyways Serral wasn't unbeatable like it was already said, he just got good matchups for the 2 tournaments he won vs opposition that didn't have Has in the finals.
8 months unbeaten sounds impressive when you don't consider he faced 90% cannonfodder during that period.
I give Serral one thing and that is that other than peak Inno no player has looked this scary in standard macro games, where everyone knew what he was going to do but still lost to it.
Maru and Rogue are better but rely a lot on trickery.
Agree with you but the last bit. I dont buy this macro > trickery, specially when you use trickery in a more broad sense rather than just meaning cheese, because being able to macro well and navigate weird situations solidly is a strength not a weakness compared to standard macro games.
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Zerg was as broken in 2018 as it was in 2019, if not more. All the tools that enabled 2019 Zerg bullshit were there in 2018 and most of them were even better. Queens ate two big nerfs at the end of 2018. Katowice and Blizzcon were all won by Zerg since Blizzcon 2017, Serral wasn't the one who started the Zerg domination of late Starcraft 2 and he certainly wasn't the last one to profit from it, but he was definitely in the eye of the storm.
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Congratz Maru! Glad to see someone was able to stop Rogue in a Bo7, even if it was online.
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On September 20 2021 17:58 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I have to agree with XainoN here (what??) that Zerg was not OP in 2018. Serral really was the only Zerg doing that well, GSL had not a single Zerg in the finals all year and in the foreign scene Protoss players were Serral's main opposition up to the last season where Reynor's rise began.
By no metric was Zerg OP that year, the 2019 Zerg dominance happened after the ridicolous Infestor and Nydus buffs.
Anyways Serral wasn't unbeatable like it was already said, he just got good matchups for the 2 tournaments he won vs opposition that didn't have Has in the finals.
8 months unbeaten sounds impressive when you don't consider he faced 90% cannonfodder during that period.
I give Serral one thing and that is that other than peak Inno no player has looked this scary in standard macro games, where everyone knew what he was going to do but still lost to it.
Maru and Rogue are better but rely a lot on trickery. Agree with you but the last bit. I dont buy this macro > trickery, specially when you use trickery in a more broad sense rather than just meaning cheese, because being able to macro well and navigate weird situations solidly is a strength not a weakness compared to standard macro games.
I didn't mean to say macro > trickery (I said Maru and Rogue are the better players).
But Inno and Serral are the only players where I felt like they had an aura of invincibility and that unless they were tricked nobody could beat them at their own game.
Maru and Rogue despite their insane highs never quite felt invincible to me because of their riskier playstyle.
Anyways this is just a thing about their playstyles and doesn't affect any goat debate.
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On September 20 2021 16:24 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Nah it's simpler than that. Zerg was overpowered in 2018 and 2019, it was just that Serral was the first to really show why. He raised the bar for what top tier Zerg was, and since everyone started imitating him it made the absurdity of the race's balance become all too apparent to the point where we had the stupidity that was ALL of 2019. Looking back on it, and how heavily Zerg has been nerfed and yet still winning championships, it's absurd to me that the game was ever considered anything less than broken during that period, ESPECIALLY with the laughable map pools that Serral won on. That's the thing about Maru, he's played in so many eras and won so many titles even when he was the only Terran able to compete at the top level because of how badly the game was balanced. His dominance stretches over multiple eras, map pools and metas. Serral really only had one true hot streak and since his race got brought more in line with the others he hasn't been able to get back up to that level. Serral's not the only pro that's had parts like that in his career. Guys like Byun also come to mind. Ever since Byun got Reapers deservedly nerfed he's been a shadow of what his peak looked like, and then the wrist issues only add to that. Same thing with Neeb and Adepts. Players like Rogue, Maru and even Dark to a lesser extent are really rare in this game. They've been around forever and have won in all kinds of metas and game balances. It's also one of the things that made Innovation so great, he was basically ALWAYS a dominant Terran no matter what the meta or balance was up until recently before he retired.
Well, Rogue only started to win from 2018 so even though he has been around forever, his championship resume is still less impressive compared to the likes of Maru and Inno.
On September 20 2021 14:11 tigera6 wrote:
Another thing that would work for Maru advantage in the GOAT dicussion at the end of the day is his relative young age. Rogue, Trap and Parting are going for military next year. So unless Classic and Hero can get back to their tip top form or Dark dominate again, Maru would run the GSL for the next year and the year after that, if Blizzard still care enough about the esport and give proper funding for tournament. Meanwhile, things are not getting easier for Serral in the EU side with Clem and Reynor keep on catching up on title.
It's insane how a player started to be good that early and is already considered GOAT when he's only 24.
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On September 20 2021 19:01 parksonsc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 16:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Nah it's simpler than that. Zerg was overpowered in 2018 and 2019, it was just that Serral was the first to really show why. He raised the bar for what top tier Zerg was, and since everyone started imitating him it made the absurdity of the race's balance become all too apparent to the point where we had the stupidity that was ALL of 2019. Looking back on it, and how heavily Zerg has been nerfed and yet still winning championships, it's absurd to me that the game was ever considered anything less than broken during that period, ESPECIALLY with the laughable map pools that Serral won on. That's the thing about Maru, he's played in so many eras and won so many titles even when he was the only Terran able to compete at the top level because of how badly the game was balanced. His dominance stretches over multiple eras, map pools and metas. Serral really only had one true hot streak and since his race got brought more in line with the others he hasn't been able to get back up to that level. Serral's not the only pro that's had parts like that in his career. Guys like Byun also come to mind. Ever since Byun got Reapers deservedly nerfed he's been a shadow of what his peak looked like, and then the wrist issues only add to that. Same thing with Neeb and Adepts. Players like Rogue, Maru and even Dark to a lesser extent are really rare in this game. They've been around forever and have won in all kinds of metas and game balances. It's also one of the things that made Innovation so great, he was basically ALWAYS a dominant Terran no matter what the meta or balance was up until recently before he retired. Well, Rogue only started to win from 2018 so even though he has been around forever, his championship resume is still less impressive compared to the likes of Maru and Inno. Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 14:11 tigera6 wrote:
Another thing that would work for Maru advantage in the GOAT dicussion at the end of the day is his relative young age. Rogue, Trap and Parting are going for military next year. So unless Classic and Hero can get back to their tip top form or Dark dominate again, Maru would run the GSL for the next year and the year after that, if Blizzard still care enough about the esport and give proper funding for tournament. Meanwhile, things are not getting easier for Serral in the EU side with Clem and Reynor keep on catching up on title. It's insane how a player started to be good that early and is already considered GOAT when he's only 24.
Maru was 16 years old when he won the OSL
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On September 20 2021 16:24 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Nah it's simpler than that. Zerg was overpowered in 2018 and 2019, it was just that Serral was the first to really show why. He raised the bar for what top tier Zerg was, and since everyone started imitating him it made the absurdity of the race's balance become all too apparent to the point where we had the stupidity that was ALL of 2019. Looking back on it, and how heavily Zerg has been nerfed and yet still winning championships, it's absurd to me that the game was ever considered anything less than broken during that period, ESPECIALLY with the laughable map pools that Serral won on. That's the thing about Maru, he's played in so many eras and won so many titles even when he was the only Terran able to compete at the top level because of how badly the game was balanced. His dominance stretches over multiple eras, map pools and metas. Serral really only had one true hot streak and since his race got brought more in line with the others he hasn't been able to get back up to that level. Serral's not the only pro that's had parts like that in his career. Guys like Byun also come to mind. Ever since Byun got Reapers deservedly nerfed he's been a shadow of what his peak looked like, and then the wrist issues only add to that. Same thing with Neeb and Adepts. Players like Rogue, Maru and even Dark to a lesser extent are really rare in this game. They've been around forever and have won in all kinds of metas and game balances. It's also one of the things that made Innovation so great, he was basically ALWAYS a dominant Terran no matter what the meta or balance was up until recently before he retired.
And even dark to a lesser extent ? Compared to rogue who won his first Premier in late july 2017, 7-8 months before Serral ? "
He's been around forever indeed, but he started winning in october 2017, that's definetely not correspond to "has won on every meta on balance".
Dark was the best zerg of 2016 period, there was a huge gap between him and the second, everyone was copying him, he was the ultimate reference like soulkey, soo, byul and life once were.
During this time, the meta was clearly not as favorable as 2017 tho so no idea why you put "a lesser extent" compared to rogue as basic facts say he actually won on more various meta and balance than him even when it wasn't Z favored. Rogue started to dominate only in fall 2017, before this we could be pretty nice and said he had been the top 3 player of his race but no more as he was always on the shadow of other zergs.
The longevity argument doesn't stand for rogue, dark has a way better one. No wonder why people think rogue is the goat when they're imagining he was winning during hots or the first year of lotv.
Maru did and he's still winning now, his fans can be annoying but he is the goat. I would have prefered Life but he chose another path.
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Northern Ireland26178 Posts
On September 20 2021 18:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 17:58 Argonauta wrote:On September 20 2021 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I have to agree with XainoN here (what??) that Zerg was not OP in 2018. Serral really was the only Zerg doing that well, GSL had not a single Zerg in the finals all year and in the foreign scene Protoss players were Serral's main opposition up to the last season where Reynor's rise began.
By no metric was Zerg OP that year, the 2019 Zerg dominance happened after the ridicolous Infestor and Nydus buffs.
Anyways Serral wasn't unbeatable like it was already said, he just got good matchups for the 2 tournaments he won vs opposition that didn't have Has in the finals.
8 months unbeaten sounds impressive when you don't consider he faced 90% cannonfodder during that period.
I give Serral one thing and that is that other than peak Inno no player has looked this scary in standard macro games, where everyone knew what he was going to do but still lost to it.
Maru and Rogue are better but rely a lot on trickery. Agree with you but the last bit. I dont buy this macro > trickery, specially when you use trickery in a more broad sense rather than just meaning cheese, because being able to macro well and navigate weird situations solidly is a strength not a weakness compared to standard macro games. I didn't mean to say macro > trickery (I said Maru and Rogue are the better players). But Inno and Serral are the only players where I felt like they had an aura of invincibility and that unless they were tricked nobody could beat them at their own game. Maru and Rogue despite their insane highs never quite felt invincible to me because of their riskier playstyle. Anyways this is just a thing about their playstyles and doesn't affect any goat debate.
It’s an aura thing as you say, and pretty short-lasting too. Inno is going to show up, do his machine thing and roll players with his stellar mechanics. And if they try to cheese him he’ll somehow stomp even harder, Serral too for a time.
Strangely the scariest Inno, in his best matchup relative to the competition that he probably ever had didn’t actually take that GSL against Soulkey. Fair play to Soulkey for his efforts there, to this day I still quite haven’t processed it.
If Serral or Inno are you basically knew what they’d do, good luck stopping them though, Rogue is almost the polar opposite in you don’t know what he’s going to bring to the table in a big finals, good luck dealing with what he’s prepped. Maru has the whole, doesn’t always bring it but can just play better Starcraft and do things nobody else can do thing.
GOAT in the absence of a Wayne Gretzky is as much about feel and subjectivity in what one values as anything else, especially in such a shifting scene. For me the jaw dropping a little over relentless dominance over months, or a Maru playing at his absolute best in individual games goes a long way.
I’m boring though and go with the ‘there is no GOAT, just a tier of players in the conversation’ stance. It’s no cakewalk even now, but Code S is notably less stacked than it once was, so how do we weight that etc?
Or a guy like Maru who started before the Kespa days, his main non-Kespa Terran rivals are long retired with injuries and by virtue of his age is still going to be an active player through a slew of military absences and retirements. Doesn’t to me detract from his greatness, which isn’t a pure trophy thing but maybe does damage arguments that he’s the best based on how many trophies he takes home. He’s bound to take home quite a few more almost by default as the scene contracts.
Also hello Xainon!
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This just doesnt make any sense. The one time I decided to not watch maru vs serral he completely stomps serral
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On September 20 2021 19:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 18:55 Charoisaur wrote:On September 20 2021 17:58 Argonauta wrote:On September 20 2021 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I have to agree with XainoN here (what??) that Zerg was not OP in 2018. Serral really was the only Zerg doing that well, GSL had not a single Zerg in the finals all year and in the foreign scene Protoss players were Serral's main opposition up to the last season where Reynor's rise began.
By no metric was Zerg OP that year, the 2019 Zerg dominance happened after the ridicolous Infestor and Nydus buffs.
Anyways Serral wasn't unbeatable like it was already said, he just got good matchups for the 2 tournaments he won vs opposition that didn't have Has in the finals.
8 months unbeaten sounds impressive when you don't consider he faced 90% cannonfodder during that period.
I give Serral one thing and that is that other than peak Inno no player has looked this scary in standard macro games, where everyone knew what he was going to do but still lost to it.
Maru and Rogue are better but rely a lot on trickery. Agree with you but the last bit. I dont buy this macro > trickery, specially when you use trickery in a more broad sense rather than just meaning cheese, because being able to macro well and navigate weird situations solidly is a strength not a weakness compared to standard macro games. I didn't mean to say macro > trickery (I said Maru and Rogue are the better players). But Inno and Serral are the only players where I felt like they had an aura of invincibility and that unless they were tricked nobody could beat them at their own game. Maru and Rogue despite their insane highs never quite felt invincible to me because of their riskier playstyle. Anyways this is just a thing about their playstyles and doesn't affect any goat debate. It’s an aura thing as you say, and pretty short-lasting too. Inno is going to show up, do his machine thing and roll players with his stellar mechanics. And if they try to cheese him he’ll somehow stomp even harder, Serral too for a time. Strangely the scariest Inno, in his best matchup relative to the competition that he probably ever had didn’t actually take that GSL against Soulkey. Fair play to Soulkey for his efforts there, to this day I still quite haven’t processed it. If Serral or Inno are you basically knew what they’d do, good luck stopping them though, Rogue is almost the polar opposite in you don’t know what he’s going to bring to the table in a big finals, good luck dealing with what he’s prepped. Maru has the whole, doesn’t always bring it but can just play better Starcraft and do things nobody else can do thing. GOAT in the absence of a Wayne Gretzky is as much about feel and subjectivity in what one values as anything else, especially in such a shifting scene. For me the jaw dropping a little over relentless dominance over months, or a Maru playing at his absolute best in individual games goes a long way. I’m boring though and go with the ‘there is no GOAT, just a tier of players in the conversation’ stance. It’s no cakewalk even now, but Code S is notably less stacked than it once was, so how do we weight that etc? Or a guy like Maru who started before the Kespa days, his main non-Kespa Terran rivals are long retired with injuries and by virtue of his age is still going to be an active player through a slew of military absences and retirements. Doesn’t to me detract from his greatness, which isn’t a pure trophy thing but maybe does damage arguments that he’s the best based on how many trophies he takes home. He’s bound to take home quite a few more almost by default as the scene contracts. Also hello Xainon!
the last part also goes for the other goat contenders. Rogue only had success from 2017 on when the game was much less competitive than in the Kespa-era. Serral only from 2018 on. Valuing their trophies as much as those won in 2013-2015 would be wrong imo.
Maru and Inno are the only goat contenders with success in the most competitive era and Maru now has higher longevity than Inno so it just has to be him
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Northern Ireland26178 Posts
On September 20 2021 20:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 19:47 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2021 18:55 Charoisaur wrote:On September 20 2021 17:58 Argonauta wrote:On September 20 2021 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I have to agree with XainoN here (what??) that Zerg was not OP in 2018. Serral really was the only Zerg doing that well, GSL had not a single Zerg in the finals all year and in the foreign scene Protoss players were Serral's main opposition up to the last season where Reynor's rise began.
By no metric was Zerg OP that year, the 2019 Zerg dominance happened after the ridicolous Infestor and Nydus buffs.
Anyways Serral wasn't unbeatable like it was already said, he just got good matchups for the 2 tournaments he won vs opposition that didn't have Has in the finals.
8 months unbeaten sounds impressive when you don't consider he faced 90% cannonfodder during that period.
I give Serral one thing and that is that other than peak Inno no player has looked this scary in standard macro games, where everyone knew what he was going to do but still lost to it.
Maru and Rogue are better but rely a lot on trickery. Agree with you but the last bit. I dont buy this macro > trickery, specially when you use trickery in a more broad sense rather than just meaning cheese, because being able to macro well and navigate weird situations solidly is a strength not a weakness compared to standard macro games. I didn't mean to say macro > trickery (I said Maru and Rogue are the better players). But Inno and Serral are the only players where I felt like they had an aura of invincibility and that unless they were tricked nobody could beat them at their own game. Maru and Rogue despite their insane highs never quite felt invincible to me because of their riskier playstyle. Anyways this is just a thing about their playstyles and doesn't affect any goat debate. It’s an aura thing as you say, and pretty short-lasting too. Inno is going to show up, do his machine thing and roll players with his stellar mechanics. And if they try to cheese him he’ll somehow stomp even harder, Serral too for a time. Strangely the scariest Inno, in his best matchup relative to the competition that he probably ever had didn’t actually take that GSL against Soulkey. Fair play to Soulkey for his efforts there, to this day I still quite haven’t processed it. If Serral or Inno are you basically knew what they’d do, good luck stopping them though, Rogue is almost the polar opposite in you don’t know what he’s going to bring to the table in a big finals, good luck dealing with what he’s prepped. Maru has the whole, doesn’t always bring it but can just play better Starcraft and do things nobody else can do thing. GOAT in the absence of a Wayne Gretzky is as much about feel and subjectivity in what one values as anything else, especially in such a shifting scene. For me the jaw dropping a little over relentless dominance over months, or a Maru playing at his absolute best in individual games goes a long way. I’m boring though and go with the ‘there is no GOAT, just a tier of players in the conversation’ stance. It’s no cakewalk even now, but Code S is notably less stacked than it once was, so how do we weight that etc? Or a guy like Maru who started before the Kespa days, his main non-Kespa Terran rivals are long retired with injuries and by virtue of his age is still going to be an active player through a slew of military absences and retirements. Doesn’t to me detract from his greatness, which isn’t a pure trophy thing but maybe does damage arguments that he’s the best based on how many trophies he takes home. He’s bound to take home quite a few more almost by default as the scene contracts. Also hello Xainon! the last part also goes for the other goat contenders. Rogue only had success from 2017 on when the game was much less competitive than in the Kespa-era. Serral only from 2018 on. Valuing their trophies as much as those won in 2013-2015 would be wrong imo. Maru and Inno are the only goat contenders with success in the most competitive era and Maru now has higher longevity than Inno so it just has to be him
It’s difficult where to draw cutoffs, but there are definitely trends. Shape and motivation aside, 2017/18 may have had less depth than peak Kespa, but many of the GOAT candidates for the three races were all active players in Korea, the real tournament winner calibre players. I think you started to see Ro32s and 16s that were less stacked, but when it came to playoff depth, still roughly comparable. Plus you had the emergence of 2017 Neeb and 2018 Serral, and two real S calibre foreigners with Reynor to gradually follow, something you didn’t really have before.
By 2021 on the other hand? No Stats, Inno, TY, now $o$ and Classic, Gumiho and herO shaking off the rust on top of players like Rain who never returned and things are looking a bit thin in Code S.
With so few currently looking championship calibre players, bracket luck starts being a way bigger factor. This season is a case in point really. Trap is the best Protoss, Maru the best Terran, and Rogue and Dark are the best Zergs. But we’ve ended up with 2/4 of the real top 4 eliminated after facing each other in the Ro8.
As much as I love Trap and think he has genuinely improved too, I don’t think he gets near getting the Trap award for 10 consecutive Ro8s back in the day. He’d be making playoffs and deep runs but not strolling out of groups every season.
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On September 20 2021 18:00 Morbidius wrote:
Zerg was as broken in 2018 as it was in 2019, if not more. All the tools that enabled 2019 Zerg bullshit were there in 2018 and most of them were even better. Queens ate two big nerfs at the end of 2018. Katowice and Blizzcon were all won by Zerg since Blizzcon 2017, Serral wasn't the one who started the Zerg domination of late Starcraft 2 and he certainly wasn't the last one to profit from it, but he was definitely in the eye of the storm.
No one remembers early 2018 when zerg had a 60% winrate against protoss lol. Unkillable nydus and hatchery overlord drops were ridiculous. The streak of zerg winning every not-GSL event started half a year before Serral started winning and continued well after he stopped.
Serral was the best ZvZ player (other than maybe soO, idk) and if didn't beat everyone those other zergs would have (Rogue would have won blizzcon, Reynor all the WCS he was allowed in). Hell, if not for Reynor's age there would have been two unbeatable zergs in the foreign scene the whole time.
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On September 20 2021 20:19 Obamarauder wrote:
This just doesnt make any sense. The one time I decided to not watch maru vs serral he completely stomps serral
I just skipped through the games but I don't believe "completely stomps" was involved.
Seemed like even games where Maru slowly outtraded Serral with great mine hits (which Maru probably controlled manually?) and good positioning to gain an ever increasing advantage.
But since you didn't see the games at all you probably know better how it went
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I think code S playoffs only started to get significantly less competitive in 2020, before that they remained really strong (ro32/ro16 were weaker). Now each code S has at most 5 serious contenders (and imo that's being generous to Zest.)
Still I don't think comparison of era to era is as straightforward as people are saying. If you value strength across eras Maru/Inno are the goats, if you value pure achievement I think Rogue is easily the goat.
Perhaps this is controversial, but I think with current trends, we're only a few years out from Europe being more competitive than Korea. Unless a lot of returning pros have major returns to form what god tier players will even be left other than Maru/Trap?
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On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable.
Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted.
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On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Serral was never unbeatable.
So what's your definition of unbeatable?
Oxford says this:
not able to be defeated or bettered in a contest or commercial market.
Since nobody defeated or bettered Serral, I think that is pretty spot on.
But as we all know on TL.net, the dictionary has no say on the meaning of words 
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Northern Ireland26178 Posts
On September 20 2021 22:55 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2021 13:49 JJH777 wrote:
Xainon just as delusional as ever. Maru was no where near GOAT after his 4 GSL streak but apparently is now? Why because he won a few online weekenders with small prizes? I guess that's at least consistent with you valuing Serral's HSCs so much. Maru was the GOAT clear then and Rogue is starting to threaten that title.
Zerg was fine and it was just Serral in 2018? Yet Zerg won the most money that year even if you subtract Serral's earnings.
Rogue isn't a goat candidate because he's not consistent? But apparently Maru's countless last Terran standing performances count for nothing.
Serral's never reached his 2018 level? Or maybe he just got good matchups for the grand total of 8 series he won to get his important trophies that year and this is the level he's always been. Seems far more likely to me. Serral was never unbeatable. Yea somehow, consecutive GSL wins are less impressive than winning regional WCS where the competition is much weaker. GSL has always been the ultimate tournament for prestige and the toughest to win and somehow it's discounted.
Literally not what was said but OK.
Xainon’s point was that Maru’s winning of 4 consecutive GSLs at that time didn’t automatically make him the GOAT. Others have won 4, or won other big tournaments like Blizzcon/Katowice S well over longer spans rather than a big hot streak.
That’s all he said, he also said that in his view Maru is the GOAT if you factor in what he’s done after 2018, when he was very close then anyway.
Which I’d agree with, it was Inno for me by like 1% over Maru for a while, but Inno dropped off a cliff from 2019 thru to retirement where Maru has remained a championship contender, and winner of tournaments too.
Ofc Mvp is still obviously the GOAT, but still.
Like cool disagree but can people bloody read what was actually posted first? People seem to be arguing with some ‘Serral is the bestest ev0r’ straw man of Xainon rather than what he’s actually posting.
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EPT
