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On September 21 2020 01:46 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:43 RKC wrote:
I'm all for realism - that a big part of war is driven by economy.
But in a war game, just feels weird that the optimal winning strategy is having 50% of unit supply in workers... I've watched some Age of Empires II games recently and they go up to 130-150 of 200 in worker supply. Crazy.
Well TBF AoE is incredibly clunky and slow when it comes down to unit micro; catapults, scorpions and ranged units in general are really good and having big army fight its not as usefull. Also economy is not based on bases so you can have an infinite scaling economy.
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These interviews are such cringe. Either let Kaeleris do the whole thing or just don't do them.
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On September 21 2020 01:27 virpi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:23 Bagration wrote:
Unscouted 2 factory, blue flame hellbat push
Zerg: Lol, 7 queens
Now, I'm not saying that Reynor isn't a good player (he's one of the best Zergs in the world) - but why the hell does a Zerg get to shut down a committed, unscouted attack like that with mineral-only tier 1 units? There's no downside to queens - make too many? Oh well, now I get extra creep spread What else is zerg supposed to build? There are no other viable options. Reynor did a very good job in repositioning his queens and sniping some medivacs. If zerg doesn't go for the mass queen approach, they normally sacrifice eco, which is worse than playing on knife's edge. Queens are needed to buy time before the banes arrive.
Well that's what other races do. It sounds absolutely normal to sacrifice some eco to defend.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On September 21 2020 01:45 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:44 Elentos wrote:On September 21 2020 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 21 2020 01:42 swarminfestor wrote:
Clem do not has answer for Lurkers+Vipers yet. Maybe some Ravens, Ghosts and tone of Libs would help. Sadly you will just die to ling-bane if you try to transition into ghost-raven-liberator on any map in the pool. It would be somewhat realistic on split-maps, but there are none of these in present pool. When's the last time we had a map you can realistically split? Must have been a while at this point. Most maps are super open centers with a lot of counter attack paths. When Maru was playing that raven style in early 2018, probably.
Terran play never really recovered from the raven nerfs that followed that short period. Not in terms of winrates but all Terran play since then has been focused on avoiding late game. Kinda sucky.
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On September 21 2020 01:42 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:41 Bagration wrote:On September 21 2020 01:35 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 01:32 Bagration wrote:On September 21 2020 01:29 Tyrhanius wrote:On September 21 2020 01:23 Bagration wrote:
Unscouted 2 factory, blue flame hellbat push
Zerg: Lol, 7 queens
Now, I'm not saying that Reynor isn't a good player (he's one of the best Zergs in the world) - but why the hell does a Zerg get to shut down a committed, unscouted attack like that with mineral-only tier 1 units? There's no downside to queens - make too many? Oh well, now I get extra creep spread He does a runby and Clem forget to close his wall, so he manages to compensate the dmg from the hellbat so he sacrifies his B3 to get baneling and defend the push without being dead. But you were probably too focus on whining to watch the game. Terran makes a single mistake over a 20+ minute game - "lol, he deserved to lose". Let's not mention the times that Reynor lost 10+ banes to a single widow mine. What's that argument? It's the same for every race: losing half your economy early on matters a lot. A Zerg can't lose half his economy to any kind of runby neither. Losing a bunch of units later on while sitting on 70-90 workers with all the production facitilies up doesn't matter that much though. Which makes sense, btw. My argument is that queens are a design / balance nightmare - it's a unit that shuts down most early aggression, so that it's a lot easier for a zerg player to reach the late game 70-90 worker eco. Na, your argument was that it's weird that Clem can't lose half his workers to a runby while sitting on 2 bases and Reynor can't lose 10+ banelings to a widow mine while sitting on 6 bases. Don't twist it around now.
Wrong :p
You can't handwave away a legitimate discussion by pointing out that a player made a single mistake. It's not fair to hold a player to perform at Alpha Star AI levels lol
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On September 21 2020 01:42 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I don't understand Feardragon, he keeps bringing Clem down with his commentary, how he is not yet on the Reynor and Serral's level etc... what the heck? If he doesn't its admiting that Clem lost due to his race and I'm guessing he wants to keep his job. I understand, they have to keep saying that else they would have to say it was due to other reasons.
He literally beat Serral yesterday, Reynor last week, and then barely lost to Reynor in the finals.
I am ok with it if he said that Reynor played better, but saying straight up how Reynor is kicking him down fight after fight with a sentence "You thought you are as good as us, you don't belong here", or something like that, is straight up unprofessional and dumb.
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On September 21 2020 01:46 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:43 RKC wrote:
I'm all for realism - that a big part of war is driven by economy.
But in a war game, just feels weird that the optimal winning strategy is having 50% of unit supply in workers... I've watched some Age of Empires II games recently and they go up to 130-150 of 200 in worker supply. Crazy.
In W3, there was a time where NE's meta was going fast-expo (building a tree of life faraway and whacking creeps to take a mine). Not sure how it lasted, but it just looked kinda silly.
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On September 21 2020 01:44 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:43 aringadingding wrote:
I wonder who will win the final. Zerg who has won a bit more than 90 % of the bigger tourneys the last couple of years or toss who has become extinct from tournament wins.... i wonder...
If Trap can take a map, thats good. If he can take two maps its amazing. If he get more maps we know Reynor has suffered from some kind of stroke before the finals. Oh... come on... At least do your research before shouting this nonsense out into the wilds.
Ofc i am exaggerating a bit. But its a rare thing toss wins anything these last couple of years and zerg has clearly won most of the tournaments.
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On September 21 2020 01:48 miniskirt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:27 virpi wrote:On September 21 2020 01:23 Bagration wrote:
Unscouted 2 factory, blue flame hellbat push
Zerg: Lol, 7 queens
Now, I'm not saying that Reynor isn't a good player (he's one of the best Zergs in the world) - but why the hell does a Zerg get to shut down a committed, unscouted attack like that with mineral-only tier 1 units? There's no downside to queens - make too many? Oh well, now I get extra creep spread What else is zerg supposed to build? There are no other viable options. Reynor did a very good job in repositioning his queens and sniping some medivacs. If zerg doesn't go for the mass queen approach, they normally sacrifice eco, which is worse than playing on knife's edge. Queens are needed to buy time before the banes arrive. Well that's what other races do. It sounds absolutely normal to sacrifice some eco to defend.
Zerg has to sacrifice economy as well to defend. It's not that Queens alone hold anything aside from the BC rushes. And they absolutely have to hold BC rushes by themselves, because Zerg doesn't have any anti air at the point the BC hits the base.
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There will be no split map games as long as you can throw banelings into planetaries
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On September 21 2020 01:43 RKC wrote:
I'm all for realism - that a big part of war is driven by economy.
But in a war game, just feels weird that the optimal winning strategy is having 50% of unit supply in workers...
The supply efficiency of the banelings is so high. With a higher supply demand there would perhaps not be so many that battles are instantly over, but requiring more micro.
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Nobody has faight in Trap, understandable tho, he is good but a PvZ finals hasn't looked good for protoss since the time of Classic.
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On September 21 2020 01:25 Lexender wrote:
I gotta admit I really dislike how much Wardi tries to be a "good guy" caster.
He just is incapable of saying one player played bad and that's why he lost, its always "the build was good to be this player is such a god that he came back from a position etc etc".
I don't think theres anything wrong with that and its only my opinion but it feels disengenuos sometimes.
I mean, I say stuff like that a lot on my own stream, but then I get flamed and told to never cast again because how dare I be the one to deem somebody played badly. Kind of puts you off.
Honestly kind of done with reading feedback and chat etc, my mentality isn't good again for it lately and I honestly think I might have to take a step back from casting for a while because of it. I know it's a vocal minority and you can't please everyone etc but it just feels impossible to be happy with what I do lately, maybe better to just let the better casters take my place until I'm actually ready to do a proper job of it t-t
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On September 21 2020 01:48 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:46 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On September 21 2020 01:43 RKC wrote:
I'm all for realism - that a big part of war is driven by economy.
But in a war game, just feels weird that the optimal winning strategy is having 50% of unit supply in workers... I've watched some Age of Empires II games recently and they go up to 130-150 of 200 in worker supply. Crazy. Well TBF AoE is incredibly clunky and slow when it comes down to unit micro; catapults, scorpions and ranged units in general are really good and having big army fight its not as usefull. Also economy is not based on bases so you can have an infinite scaling economy.
Yeah, I agree. Also, all AoE2 military units cost 1 supply, so they probably have more military units than in SC2, even with the higher worker supply.
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On September 21 2020 01:49 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:48 miniskirt wrote:On September 21 2020 01:27 virpi wrote:On September 21 2020 01:23 Bagration wrote:
Unscouted 2 factory, blue flame hellbat push
Zerg: Lol, 7 queens
Now, I'm not saying that Reynor isn't a good player (he's one of the best Zergs in the world) - but why the hell does a Zerg get to shut down a committed, unscouted attack like that with mineral-only tier 1 units? There's no downside to queens - make too many? Oh well, now I get extra creep spread What else is zerg supposed to build? There are no other viable options. Reynor did a very good job in repositioning his queens and sniping some medivacs. If zerg doesn't go for the mass queen approach, they normally sacrifice eco, which is worse than playing on knife's edge. Queens are needed to buy time before the banes arrive. Well that's what other races do. It sounds absolutely normal to sacrifice some eco to defend. Zerg has to sacrifice economy as well to defend. It's not that Queens alone hold anything aside from the BC rushes. And they absolutely have to hold BC rushes by themselves, because Zerg doesn't have any anti air at the point the BC hits the base.
Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps BC where buffed as a response to the early game of Zerg? Cuz it's so disgustingly broken?
because Terrans are not doing enough damage with banshee and hellions so they decided to buff one useless unit to a kind-of useful one instead of nerfing Zergs.
If they nerf Zergs then they could remove the warp from BC and all would be good
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On September 21 2020 01:50 WardiTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:25 Lexender wrote:
I gotta admit I really dislike how much Wardi tries to be a "good guy" caster.
He just is incapable of saying one player played bad and that's why he lost, its always "the build was good to be this player is such a god that he came back from a position etc etc".
I don't think theres anything wrong with that and its only my opinion but it feels disengenuos sometimes. I mean, I say stuff like that a lot on my own stream, but then I get flamed and told to never cast again because how dare I be the one to deem somebody played badly. Kind of puts you off. Honestly kind of done with reading feedback and chat etc, my mentality isn't good again for it lately and I honestly think I might have to take a step back from casting for a while because of it. I know it's a vocal minority and you can't please everyone etc but it just feels impossible to be happy with what I do lately, maybe better to just let the better casters take my place until I'm actually ready to do a proper job of it t-t
What exactly do you want? Because honestly wardiii, you can read a lot of "based god wardii saviour of sc2 and esports" kind of coments around here too.
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On September 21 2020 01:50 Calliope wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:43 RKC wrote:
I'm all for realism - that a big part of war is driven by economy.
But in a war game, just feels weird that the optimal winning strategy is having 50% of unit supply in workers... The supply efficiency of the banelings is so high. With a higher supply demand there would perhaps not be so many that battles are instantly over, but requiring more micro.
Yes, my point exactly. The fact that 50% worker is optimal doesn't show so much that the war game is driven by actual economics, but how broken certain units are.
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On September 21 2020 01:50 WardiTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:25 Lexender wrote:
I gotta admit I really dislike how much Wardi tries to be a "good guy" caster.
He just is incapable of saying one player played bad and that's why he lost, its always "the build was good to be this player is such a god that he came back from a position etc etc".
I don't think theres anything wrong with that and its only my opinion but it feels disengenuos sometimes. I mean, I say stuff like that a lot on my own stream, but then I get flamed and told to never cast again because how dare I be the one to deem somebody played badly. Kind of puts you off. Honestly kind of done with reading feedback and chat etc, my mentality isn't good again for it lately and I honestly think I might have to take a step back from casting for a while because of it. I know it's a vocal minority and you can't please everyone etc but it just feels impossible to be happy with what I do lately, maybe better to just let the better casters take my place until I'm actually ready to do a proper job of it t-t
Don't take that too personal. I think there is no caster in the world everyone is happy with and the same probably goes with you. And while the flames can be annoying, I don't think it's worth taking them seriously.
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Warditv - Fuck the bullshit homie.
I have had a great time watching the streams and part of it is because the casting.
Do not let the useless assholes in the community win. You do you.
Thank you for constantly contributing.
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On September 21 2020 01:50 WardiTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:25 Lexender wrote:
I gotta admit I really dislike how much Wardi tries to be a "good guy" caster.
He just is incapable of saying one player played bad and that's why he lost, its always "the build was good to be this player is such a god that he came back from a position etc etc".
I don't think theres anything wrong with that and its only my opinion but it feels disengenuos sometimes. I mean, I say stuff like that a lot on my own stream, but then I get flamed and told to never cast again because how dare I be the one to deem somebody played badly. Kind of puts you off. Honestly kind of done with reading feedback and chat etc, my mentality isn't good again for it lately and I honestly think I might have to take a step back from casting for a while because of it. I know it's a vocal minority and you can't please everyone etc but it just feels impossible to be happy with what I do lately, maybe better to just let the better casters take my place until I'm actually ready to do a proper job of it t-t
You've been doing this long enough to not read feedback anymore. Just do your thing, people in general seem to like it.
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EPT
