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On September 21 2020 01:10 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:59 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:52 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:44 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 00:43 heqat wrote:On September 21 2020 00:40 Weavel wrote:On September 21 2020 00:37 AzAlexZ wrote:
anyone else frustrated that Clem payed the entire game better than Reynor but one bad fight and he is screwed?
like Reynor took maybe like 5 bad fight in the firs 5 mins but still okay? As a terran I know your pain. Well, they both played incredibly well. But Clem failled to do any early game damage, which put him a bit behind... The fact that we have accepted that as the standard is such a bad sign tho That was a standard from Brood War days unless Terran played Mech, then it was the other way around. not true 2013 and 2014 parade pushes from Terran could do wonders against Zerg even from behind and it was way more rewarding for Terrans who kept the zerg on their toes And that was always the case as well, you either do damage early, or do an all-in/timing. If you don't do enough and let him drone to 80-90, you are hardly going to win later. not what I wrote though, read what I just said, I said if terran gets behind then they can still do wonders against zerg because parade push and rewarding good play. watch Polt/Bomber vs Jaedong and see how Polt rolls over Jaedong by doing similar things to what Clem did (taking good fights), look at the result of the fights You are not winning with these parade pushes against Zerg in the late game... you do it in the mid game, even when behind, when Zerg didn't drone up to 80-90 and doesn't have tier 3 yet. You are kind of agreeing with me. You can't let Zerg drone up to 90 and get freely to tier 3. Doing damage early game with Hellions/Widow Mines/Drops/Pushes or All-in/Parade Timing in the mid game means you are trying to stop the Zerg before he gets there, have nothing to do with Terran being ahead or behind. in HOTS no one gets to 80 drones
The old wisdom used to say that 70 Drones was optimal. This 90-100 drones stuff is new, very new.
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On September 21 2020 01:09 Swisslink wrote:
I think the commentators kind of overrate Clem's position?
(or did at least. They sounded as if Clem was in a really good spot here)
Clem is definitely ahead, but these casters are very biased towards Clem. I commented on this the other day too.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 21 2020 01:10 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:59 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:52 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:44 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 00:43 heqat wrote:On September 21 2020 00:40 Weavel wrote:On September 21 2020 00:37 AzAlexZ wrote:
anyone else frustrated that Clem payed the entire game better than Reynor but one bad fight and he is screwed?
like Reynor took maybe like 5 bad fight in the firs 5 mins but still okay? As a terran I know your pain. Well, they both played incredibly well. But Clem failled to do any early game damage, which put him a bit behind... The fact that we have accepted that as the standard is such a bad sign tho That was a standard from Brood War days unless Terran played Mech, then it was the other way around. not true 2013 and 2014 parade pushes from Terran could do wonders against Zerg even from behind and it was way more rewarding for Terrans who kept the zerg on their toes And that was always the case as well, you either do damage early, or do an all-in/timing. If you don't do enough and let him drone to 80-90, you are hardly going to win later. not what I wrote though, read what I just said, I said if terran gets behind then they can still do wonders against zerg because parade push and rewarding good play. watch Polt/Bomber vs Jaedong and see how Polt rolls over Jaedong by doing similar things to what Clem did (taking good fights), look at the result of the fights You are not winning with these parade pushes against Zerg in the late game... you do it in the mid game, even when behind, when Zerg didn't drone up to 80-90 and doesn't have tier 3 yet. You are kind of agreeing with me. You can't let Zerg drone up to 90 and get freely to tier 3. Doing damage early game with Hellions/Widow Mines/Drops/Pushes or All-in/Parade Timing in the mid game means you are trying to stop the Zerg before he gets there, have nothing to do with Terran being ahead or behind. in HOTS no one gets to 80 drones
Exactly. So why are you applying this to LotV where you have 105 drones vs 80 scvs?
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On September 21 2020 01:12 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:10 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 01:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:59 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:52 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:44 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 00:43 heqat wrote:On September 21 2020 00:40 Weavel wrote:
[quote]As a terran I know your pain.
Well, they both played incredibly well. But Clem failled to do any early game damage, which put him a bit behind... The fact that we have accepted that as the standard is such a bad sign tho That was a standard from Brood War days unless Terran played Mech, then it was the other way around. not true 2013 and 2014 parade pushes from Terran could do wonders against Zerg even from behind and it was way more rewarding for Terrans who kept the zerg on their toes And that was always the case as well, you either do damage early, or do an all-in/timing. If you don't do enough and let him drone to 80-90, you are hardly going to win later. not what I wrote though, read what I just said, I said if terran gets behind then they can still do wonders against zerg because parade push and rewarding good play. watch Polt/Bomber vs Jaedong and see how Polt rolls over Jaedong by doing similar things to what Clem did (taking good fights), look at the result of the fights You are not winning with these parade pushes against Zerg in the late game... you do it in the mid game, even when behind, when Zerg didn't drone up to 80-90 and doesn't have tier 3 yet. You are kind of agreeing with me. You can't let Zerg drone up to 90 and get freely to tier 3. Doing damage early game with Hellions/Widow Mines/Drops/Pushes or All-in/Parade Timing in the mid game means you are trying to stop the Zerg before he gets there, have nothing to do with Terran being ahead or behind. in HOTS no one gets to 80 drones Exactly. So why are you applying this to LotV where you have 105 drones vs 80 scvs?
because in the past if you have too many drones (80-90) you die to the disparity of army supply in the terran army, if anyone got 80 drones in HOTS they get rolled over by the higher army supply of Terran.
somehow in LOTV it's no longer the case, you catching my drift here?
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Clem being passive is what is going to cost him this series, there's just no defeating zerg ones they reach their drone count and start getting a bank, no matter how many fight he might win it just takes 1 bad trade to lose the game.
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On September 21 2020 01:14 Lexender wrote:
Clem being passive is what is going to cost him this series, there's just no defeating zerg ones they reach their drone count and start getting a bank, no matter how many fight he might win it just takes 1 bad trade to lose the game.
He has a massive upgrade advantage don't call him dead yet.
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On September 21 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:10 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 01:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:59 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:52 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:44 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 00:43 heqat wrote:On September 21 2020 00:40 Weavel wrote:
[quote]As a terran I know your pain.
Well, they both played incredibly well. But Clem failled to do any early game damage, which put him a bit behind... The fact that we have accepted that as the standard is such a bad sign tho That was a standard from Brood War days unless Terran played Mech, then it was the other way around. not true 2013 and 2014 parade pushes from Terran could do wonders against Zerg even from behind and it was way more rewarding for Terrans who kept the zerg on their toes And that was always the case as well, you either do damage early, or do an all-in/timing. If you don't do enough and let him drone to 80-90, you are hardly going to win later. not what I wrote though, read what I just said, I said if terran gets behind then they can still do wonders against zerg because parade push and rewarding good play. watch Polt/Bomber vs Jaedong and see how Polt rolls over Jaedong by doing similar things to what Clem did (taking good fights), look at the result of the fights You are not winning with these parade pushes against Zerg in the late game... you do it in the mid game, even when behind, when Zerg didn't drone up to 80-90 and doesn't have tier 3 yet. You are kind of agreeing with me. You can't let Zerg drone up to 90 and get freely to tier 3. Doing damage early game with Hellions/Widow Mines/Drops/Pushes or All-in/Parade Timing in the mid game means you are trying to stop the Zerg before he gets there, have nothing to do with Terran being ahead or behind. in HOTS no one gets to 80 drones The old wisdom used to say that 70 Drones was optimal. This 90-100 drones stuff is new, very new.
It's been done before, when zergs could macro uncontested till 3-4 bases.
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oof 23 kills on one mine.
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Which are stronger, Clem's mines or Reynor's lings?
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On September 21 2020 01:15 miniskirt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 21 2020 01:10 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 01:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:59 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:52 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:44 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 00:43 heqat wrote:
[quote]
Well, they both played incredibly well. But Clem failled to do any early game damage, which put him a bit behind... The fact that we have accepted that as the standard is such a bad sign tho That was a standard from Brood War days unless Terran played Mech, then it was the other way around. not true 2013 and 2014 parade pushes from Terran could do wonders against Zerg even from behind and it was way more rewarding for Terrans who kept the zerg on their toes And that was always the case as well, you either do damage early, or do an all-in/timing. If you don't do enough and let him drone to 80-90, you are hardly going to win later. not what I wrote though, read what I just said, I said if terran gets behind then they can still do wonders against zerg because parade push and rewarding good play. watch Polt/Bomber vs Jaedong and see how Polt rolls over Jaedong by doing similar things to what Clem did (taking good fights), look at the result of the fights You are not winning with these parade pushes against Zerg in the late game... you do it in the mid game, even when behind, when Zerg didn't drone up to 80-90 and doesn't have tier 3 yet. You are kind of agreeing with me. You can't let Zerg drone up to 90 and get freely to tier 3. Doing damage early game with Hellions/Widow Mines/Drops/Pushes or All-in/Parade Timing in the mid game means you are trying to stop the Zerg before he gets there, have nothing to do with Terran being ahead or behind. in HOTS no one gets to 80 drones The old wisdom used to say that 70 Drones was optimal. This 90-100 drones stuff is new, very new. It's been done before, when zergs could macro uncontested till 3-4 bases.
Sure maybe it was, but it wasn't meta until very recently.
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Clem is playing way better so far
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Reynor on 90+ drones but Clem fighting like a freaking boss!
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On September 21 2020 01:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:14 Lexender wrote:
Clem being passive is what is going to cost him this series, there's just no defeating zerg ones they reach their drone count and start getting a bank, no matter how many fight he might win it just takes 1 bad trade to lose the game. He has a massive upgrade advantage don't call him dead yet.
No, he is very dead here.
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On September 21 2020 01:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:15 miniskirt wrote:On September 21 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 21 2020 01:10 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 01:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:59 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:52 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 21 2020 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 21 2020 00:44 Lexender wrote:
[quote]
The fact that we have accepted that as the standard is such a bad sign tho That was a standard from Brood War days unless Terran played Mech, then it was the other way around. not true 2013 and 2014 parade pushes from Terran could do wonders against Zerg even from behind and it was way more rewarding for Terrans who kept the zerg on their toes And that was always the case as well, you either do damage early, or do an all-in/timing. If you don't do enough and let him drone to 80-90, you are hardly going to win later. not what I wrote though, read what I just said, I said if terran gets behind then they can still do wonders against zerg because parade push and rewarding good play. watch Polt/Bomber vs Jaedong and see how Polt rolls over Jaedong by doing similar things to what Clem did (taking good fights), look at the result of the fights You are not winning with these parade pushes against Zerg in the late game... you do it in the mid game, even when behind, when Zerg didn't drone up to 80-90 and doesn't have tier 3 yet. You are kind of agreeing with me. You can't let Zerg drone up to 90 and get freely to tier 3. Doing damage early game with Hellions/Widow Mines/Drops/Pushes or All-in/Parade Timing in the mid game means you are trying to stop the Zerg before he gets there, have nothing to do with Terran being ahead or behind. in HOTS no one gets to 80 drones The old wisdom used to say that 70 Drones was optimal. This 90-100 drones stuff is new, very new. It's been done before, when zergs could macro uncontested till 3-4 bases. Sure maybe it was, but it wasn't meta until very recently.
It wasn't meta but it was done quite a few times, saying how "no one gets to 80 drones in HOTS" is overstatement. I was seeing even above 100 drones a few times in WOL/HOTS.
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Clem needs to kill another hatchery before 3-3 kicks in. If he has to fight Reynor on even upgrades I don't like his chances from here.
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On September 21 2020 01:11 kaykoose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:09 Swisslink wrote:
I think the commentators kind of overrate Clem's position?
(or did at least. They sounded as if Clem was in a really good spot here) Clem is definitely ahead, but these casters are very biased towards Clem. I commented on this the other day too.
I'm on board on hyping the underdog. Everyone loves "newcomers" (I know he's not new, he's just not a player that has traditionally won such tournaments) doing fine. I just don't see a point in overhyping a position in a game. Because I really don't think Reynor has ever been in a really dire position in this game.
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I am not sure the sheer size of the maps really make things more epic. A return to some of those smalelr WoL size maps could be interesting. Now the T is so afraid of muta and ling counterattacks that he never moves out and we get no big epic battles but nothing but smaller skirmishes.
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On September 21 2020 01:17 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 01:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 21 2020 01:14 Lexender wrote:
Clem being passive is what is going to cost him this series, there's just no defeating zerg ones they reach their drone count and start getting a bank, no matter how many fight he might win it just takes 1 bad trade to lose the game. He has a massive upgrade advantage don't call him dead yet. No, he is very dead here.
K NOW he is dead.
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EPT
