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On March 02 2020 02:48 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:47 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 02 2020 02:42 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 02:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 02 2020 02:14 Vindicare605 wrote:
It doesn't mean anything that Serral beat Terrans at Blizzcon for example when the tournament was 5/8 Zergs. Of COURSE he won against Terran in that tournament. Zerg was completely imbalanced when he did, the structure and placings of that tournament say as much.
. Are you saying Blizzcon doesn't matter because zerg was imbalanced at the time and the reason you know this if because of the amount of zergs that made RO8? That is simply stupid, a bracket in isolation or the results of one tournament says nothing about over all balance. Hell look at the ESL EU cup, 0 zergs in the semifinals, guess zerg is underpowered, derp. No thats not how statistics works. If I would humour you considering Blizzcon 2019, which zergs advanced to the RO8 through an upset proving imbalance? Should Time have advanced over Serral, should Show time have advanced over soO, should herO have advanced over Reynor, or maybe Neeb over Rogue? No, the results we got was expected, not because of the players but because of the players. Show me the statistics overall, over a long time period that show a race was imbalanced. Your whole X race was op during Y tournament because look at the results is just stupid. 2019 didn't matter. Yes I will say that. The meta, the maps. everything said that it was a foregone conclusion that a Zerg would win the finals that year. The only question was WHICH Zerg. Can you really tell me that long term stats reflect that? Of course they don't.Starcraft doesn't work that way because the game is ALWAYS in flux and there always other factors. But if you go back and look at context to what was happening during each tournament the data looks different. If you just crunch raw numbers without context you get a very different story. But in situations like these, numbers without context is meaningless. The flaw here is that the "context" you are talking about is undefined and only exist in your head. I agree with your argument, but the context you see is not the one the rest of us see. It is possible zerg is Op, maybe for a long time but there is no information to support it, it is just an opinion taken from the air. You say numbers mean nothing straight after you used numbers yourself to support your opinion. Choose, either numbers matter or they don't. You cant just choose to use stats when they support your claim but dissmiss them when they don't. You have said nothing that actually show any context as to why zerg would be op, because as you say there are no such proof. Only little feeling living in your gut, a feeling you have been trying to find proof of exist but cant. Numbers matter when the context supports them. Go back to two maybe 3 posts of mine prior where I talk about why Finals matches matter more. I've already addressed your criticism of my argument, please address that first.
Well I answered your post and you never answered my counter  Funny how you ignore my arguments andthen tell me not to ignore your arguments, which I never did.
Its always so funny to argue with people that keep going on about context/any-meaning-less-word and never explains what they mean with it.
Yes numbers doesnt matter, context can paint a bigger picture but you have never explained what context you are talking about..
All you write over and over is why everyone else is wrong but you know because "context".
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On March 02 2020 02:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:43 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 02 2020 02:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 02:22 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:58 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
What's ironic is that Serral also has a weakness vs Terran last year, or a weakness vs Reynor.
Perhaps the explanation is even easier. Serral isn't the perfect player his stans like to pretend he is. He's actually just on a high level that high level Koreans can knock off at varying levels. He's at the GSL level where high level GSL players continously knock each other off of.
More or less EXACTLY how I've been describing him for 2 years. You are both wrong and right. Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament). At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online). Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno. Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL. It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements. Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea. Oh BS! Just because a player is Korean does NOT MEAN they are a member of the GSL Elite! Get that stat out of here! you know it's full of shit just as much as I do. You're intentionally inflating his accomplishments and you know it. A win vs Solar, Armani or Patience IS NOT the same as a series win vs Maru, Innovation, Classic or Rogue. Algiluac is flawed too because it considers all of those matches as equal. They're not. Any decent Starcraft fan knows that. Its not bullshit, players like Solar and Patience are definitely high class GSL players. They take wins over the players you mention all the time, yet they could not take Serral down. On some days Solar is better that Innovation and Maru, on other days not, they are close in skill level. Sure Maru and Inno has higher peaks when in form but that doesn't mean that they are always in form. By your logic maybe we should also consider what form players are in, meaning any player that lose and doesn't get to the finals are not in form and therefore beating them doesn't mean anything because obvbiously they are off their game and cant be compared to the GSL elite when in form. If Serral played in GSL consistently he'd get series or maps taken off of him by outliers too. They get a chance to prepare, that's part of what makes the GSL so great. Serral only plays them in his favored format and only occasionaly. It's not the same thing. I agree that the GSL exposes that every player is mortal. If Serral played there, he would look much less dominant than he looks now crushing on foreigner opponents in the WCS. The only reason people consider him to be so good is because of how often he wins and he only wins as often as he does because he's protected by region locking. Shove him into the Korean sphere and he'd be considered good sure, but not the all time best. That's how I see it. He's done nothing to prove me wrong.
Go look at the numbers I posted, instead.
Serral hasn't dominated WCS in 2019, he shared it with Reynor; peak Serral was crushing foreigners just as much as koreans. There was no region lock "protection".
I agree that Serral would lose more often if he played in Code S and that, right now, he wouldn't have much more chances than any top korean to win it. No one here is saying Serral is the GOAT, you were saying he wasn't capable of consistently beating good koreans...
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On March 02 2020 02:58 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 02:43 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 02 2020 02:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 02:22 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
You are both wrong and right.
Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament).
At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online).
Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno.
Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL. It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements. Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea. Oh BS! Just because a player is Korean does NOT MEAN they are a member of the GSL Elite! Get that stat out of here! you know it's full of shit just as much as I do. You're intentionally inflating his accomplishments and you know it. A win vs Solar, Armani or Patience IS NOT the same as a series win vs Maru, Innovation, Classic or Rogue. Algiluac is flawed too because it considers all of those matches as equal. They're not. Any decent Starcraft fan knows that. Its not bullshit, players like Solar and Patience are definitely high class GSL players. They take wins over the players you mention all the time, yet they could not take Serral down. On some days Solar is better that Innovation and Maru, on other days not, they are close in skill level. Sure Maru and Inno has higher peaks when in form but that doesn't mean that they are always in form. By your logic maybe we should also consider what form players are in, meaning any player that lose and doesn't get to the finals are not in form and therefore beating them doesn't mean anything because obvbiously they are off their game and cant be compared to the GSL elite when in form. If Serral played in GSL consistently he'd get series or maps taken off of him by outliers too. They get a chance to prepare, that's part of what makes the GSL so great. Serral only plays them in his favored format and only occasionaly. It's not the same thing. I agree that the GSL exposes that every player is mortal. If Serral played there, he would look much less dominant than he looks now crushing on foreigner opponents in the WCS. The only reason people consider him to be so good is because of how often he wins and he only wins as often as he does because he's protected by region locking. Shove him into the Korean sphere and he'd be considered good sure, but not the all time best. That's how I see it. He's done nothing to prove me wrong. Go look at the numbers I posted, instead. Serral hasn't dominated WCS in 2019, he shared it with Reynor; peak Serral was crushing foreigners just as much as koreans. There was no region lock "protection". I agree that Serral would lose more often if he played in Code S and that, right now, he wouldn't have much more chances than any top korean to win it. No one here is saying Serral is the GOAT, you were saying he wasn't capable of consistently beating good koreans...
I never said that. I said if you've been reading my posts that "he has the potential to be a GSL champ, but he hasn't proven it."
I want Serral to go play in Code S and prove it. Nothing would make me happier if he did. He refuses to.
I will criticize his accomplishments until he does.
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Its annoying me that even at the ultimate top level, games almost never get to late game or even later parts of mid game especially in protoss matchups.
Why do games end so easily even when best players are playing?
Its terribly annoying that games end in 1 early game attack all the time...
There needs to be a better defender advantage in the early/mid game.. Late game are so much more exciting.
More than half of the zerg units are never used because well, the games always end before. And im not talking about balance at all, just bad design IMO...
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On March 02 2020 03:06 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Its annoying me that even at the ultimate top level, games almost never get to late game or even later parts of mid game especially in protoss matchups.
Why do games end so easily even when best players are playing?
Its terribly annoying that games end in 1 early game attack all the time...
The answer to that is pretty simple.
At the top level, pros are always executing builds that they think will give them an advantage, whether it's early, mid or late game.
Every build has weak points. Pros know those weak points and if they think their build can exploit them, they go for it.
Games are decided around those weak points.
Starcraft is Chess, but it's also Poker, among many other games. This dynamic is VERY common in both chess and poker.
The reason more casual games last longer, is because the players playing them don't see the weak points that pros do, and don't try and end the game by exploiting that weak point. So it goes to a later endgame stage that is very different from what the mid or early game looks like.
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On March 02 2020 03:06 Snakestyle11 wrote:
There needs to be a better defender advantage in the early/mid game.. Late game are so much more exciting
When Terran had a late game against Zerg, during the raven era, or in the first LoTV patches (before the consecutive libe nerfs and spore/queen buffs), the balance team didn't wait for this to be sorted out. On the other side, when PvT was littteraly unplayable except for Maru, they kept it for a year. Or the PvZ games which were very long until Rogue destroyed Classic.
They just want it that way, I guess.
TY vs. Dark were fun to watch in 2016.
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On March 02 2020 03:06 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Its annoying me that even at the ultimate top level, games almost never get to late game or even later parts of mid game especially in protoss matchups.
PvZ, the Protoss trying to go lategame is stupid. That's why Trap's PvZ is so terrible--he keeps trying to win a macro game. (I think the speed on creep vs. slow Protoss armies means that the matches will very rarely go on too long--when Protoss attacks they're pretty committed and either they succeed or don't. If, like Trap, they don't attack, Zerg aggression kills them. Recall is often less good for retreating than Terran's static defense/siege units or medivac boost.)
PvT Protoss can go lategame, but seems to be strongest in the early-to-mid game, so why tire yourself out for worse odds?
PvP is a cheese battle.
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On March 02 2020 03:12 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 03:06 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Its annoying me that even at the ultimate top level, games almost never get to late game or even later parts of mid game especially in protoss matchups.
Why do games end so easily even when best players are playing?
Its terribly annoying that games end in 1 early game attack all the time...
The answer to that is pretty simple. At the top level, pros are always executing builds that they think will give them an advantage, whether it's early, mid or late game. Every build has weak points. Pros know those weak points and if they think their build can exploit them, they go for it. Games are decided around those weak points. Starcraft is Chess, but it's also Poker, among many other games. This dynamic is VERY common in both chess and poker. The reason more casual games last longer, is because the players playing them don't see the weak points that pros do, and don't try and end the game by exploiting that weak point. So it goes to a later endgame stage that is very different from what the mid or early game looks like.
This dude has only easy answers his point of few. But he only believes and doesnt back anything up with facts.
One of the most enoying people on this website.
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Serral got an unlucky bracket, otherwise he'd have easily won the tournament.
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On March 02 2020 06:44 DarkGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 03:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 03:06 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Its annoying me that even at the ultimate top level, games almost never get to late game or even later parts of mid game especially in protoss matchups.
Why do games end so easily even when best players are playing?
Its terribly annoying that games end in 1 early game attack all the time...
The answer to that is pretty simple. At the top level, pros are always executing builds that they think will give them an advantage, whether it's early, mid or late game. Every build has weak points. Pros know those weak points and if they think their build can exploit them, they go for it. Games are decided around those weak points. Starcraft is Chess, but it's also Poker, among many other games. This dynamic is VERY common in both chess and poker. The reason more casual games last longer, is because the players playing them don't see the weak points that pros do, and don't try and end the game by exploiting that weak point. So it goes to a later endgame stage that is very different from what the mid or early game looks like. This dude has only easy answers his point of few. But he only believes and doesnt back anything up with facts. One of the most enoying people on this website.
If I'm so wrong, by all means, argue against me. Oh wait, you don't actually have an argument of your own? You just don't like what I'm saying because you don't like to hear the truth?
Oh ok.
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Not sure what y'all are arguing about?
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/fxUMPqQ.jpg)
Top 4 of the world. End of discussion. Easy 
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On March 02 2020 16:01 Harris1st wrote:Not sure what y'all are arguing about? Top 4 of the world. End of discussion. Easy
I'm arguing because Serral stans insist he's still the best in the world.
It's never been true, it's not true now.
People just WANT it to be true because he's from Europe instead of Korea. That's also a truth that's been true for a long time.
His fans make excuses, use irrational logic, and just generally are toxic because he's not Korean.
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On March 02 2020 17:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
His fans make excuses, use irrational logic, and just generally are toxic because he's not Korean.
Replace "fans" with "critics" and it's just as true. The discussion has derailed a long time ago.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 02 2020 17:24 GoloSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 17:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
His fans make excuses, use irrational logic, and just generally are toxic because he's not Korean. Replace "fans" with "critics" and it's just as true. The discussion has derailed a long time ago.
And now the question is what came first, toxic fans or toxic critics? Or if it's independedt on each other I myself am more of a reaction to the fanboys and casters(this IEM in some matches it was beyond ridiculous) 
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On March 02 2020 17:24 GoloSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 17:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
His fans make excuses, use irrational logic, and just generally are toxic because he's not Korean. Replace "fans" with "critics" and it's just as true. The discussion has derailed a long time ago.
I'm a critic and I've been posting for a good while. Point out where I'm toxic. Please, by all means.
This is a false equivalency argument that i will not embrace. You want to claim Serral critics don't have merit then argue the arguements, dont post later with a matter of fact statement. It doesn't count.
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On March 02 2020 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 17:24 GoloSC2 wrote:On March 02 2020 17:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
His fans make excuses, use irrational logic, and just generally are toxic because he's not Korean. Replace "fans" with "critics" and it's just as true. The discussion has derailed a long time ago. I'm a critic and I've been posting for a good while. Point out where I'm toxic. Please, by all means. This is a false equivalency argument that i will not embrace. You want to claim Serral critics don't have merit then argue the arguements, dont post later with a matter of fact statement. It doesn't count.
Honestly I think you're being kinda toxic in this thread right now. And I don't say that because I disagree with you (though I do disagree with the dogmatic nature of your stance, and I don't think you've given evidence that warrants it). Take a step back and consider: you too are insisting on the objective correctness of your assessment. You too are talking down to people who disagree with you and publicly attacking their character. Do you believe this to be conducive to reasonable discourse? It looks to me like a pretty typical recipe for a flame war.
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On March 02 2020 17:17 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 16:01 Harris1st wrote:Not sure what y'all are arguing about? Top 4 of the world. End of discussion. Easy I'm arguing because Serral stans insist he's still the best in the world. It's never been true, it's not true now. People just WANT it to be true because he's from Europe instead of Korea. That's also a truth that's been true for a long time. His fans make excuses, use irrational logic, and just generally are toxic because he's not Korean.
You have received reasonable answers and statistics and you have kept spewing your opinions like they were facts.
Serral is still undoubtly among the best players in the world, he is the most consistent for sure.
Not recognizing Serral has been THE best is just delusion.
He was without any doubt in the second half of 2018 and around August/September last year.
In reality, you cannot accept it because Serral is not korean.
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On March 02 2020 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm a critic and I've been posting for a good while. Point out where I'm toxic. Please, by all means.
This is a false equivalency argument that i will not embrace. You want to claim Serral critics don't have merit then argue the arguements, dont post later with a matter of fact statement. It doesn't count.
There you go:
On March 02 2020 17:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm arguing because Serral stans insist he's still the best in the world.
It's never been true, it's not true now.
People just WANT it to be true because he's from Europe instead of Korea. That's also a truth that's been true for a long time.
His fans make excuses, use irrational logic, and just generally are toxic because he's not Korean.
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EPT
