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Canada8988 Posts
On March 02 2020 02:00 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 01:59 darklycid wrote:On March 02 2020 01:53 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:49 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2020 01:45 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:40 kaykoose wrote:
Congrats Rogue. He doesn't get enough credit around here considering all the big tournaments he wins. He is a good player, very "clutch". But for some reason he isn't high on my favorites chart. Of the 4 players from today's matches I wanted him to win the least. He has to be the player with the lowest succes-fan ratio since like Classic before 2019 Classic suffered more from people not realizing how good he was, with Rogue it's more that people know but don't care it seems. maybe because he abuses zerg options to the max, which leads to non zergs being not particualry fond of his games :D yeah the patch zerg thing is not helping him for sure :p
Lol ya, not gonna lie Rogue could win the next 10 tournaments, pretty sure I my first instinct would still be to call him a patch zerg. He doesn't help himself with his interview tho.
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On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:
Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced and won vs a high level Korean Terran in the finals except ONE final vs TY.
He rarely gets a chance to face top level Korean Terrans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Don't let his complete massacre of Special in the WCS finals skew the records, Serral is MUCH MUCH better than Special but Special is the best Terran in the WCS so that's an obviously biased result, that you can thank to Region Locking.
If Serral actually wanted to prove something he'd go play in Code S where the competition is actually on or above his level. I've been saying this for years. His meandering and farming of the foreigner scene is all fine and good for his personal wealth, but does nothing to prove he's the best in the world.
Why are you only counting finals? A player cant be great in a matchup unless he wins in a finals against said race? That is just silly.
Obviously Serral isn't god tier, he was though for half of 2019 he was untouchable. For some reason Xainon still believes he is untouchable and for some reason you think he is weak to terran?
All we know right now is that he has shown a weakness to protoss, he stomped innovation and the only ZvZ we saw him play was against Lambo.
Serral is unproven against zerg, strong against terran and has a weaknes against protoss. That is what the recent results show, it also shows Rogue is an absolute monster in ZvZ which means he would likely defeat Serral but who knows.
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On March 02 2020 02:04 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:01 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 02 2020 01:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:45 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:40 kaykoose wrote:
Congrats Rogue. He doesn't get enough credit around here considering all the big tournaments he wins. He is a good player, very "clutch". But for some reason he isn't high on my favorites chart. Of the 4 players from today's matches I wanted him to win the least. It's probably just his style. Rogue isn't very flashy. He always wins in very standard ways. He doesn't have a trademark aggressive build like Reynor, soO, Life or Dark. He just wins with consistent macro Zerg play. He reminds me a lot of Tim Duncan, a legendary basketball pro, in that way. He's consistent, he's strong, but he doesn't win a lot of fan support with his play outside of his die hard fanbase. Even I wasn't a fan of his until I embraced being a Jin Air fan and that was due to Maru and sOs not him. He gives some decent interviews the odd one I’ve listened to. It’ll be an intriguing year between the three (IMO) best Zergs in Serral, Rogue and Dark. Quite excited for them to duke it out a bit more. Have very little to go on, early in the season really. Serral’s ZvP looked more shaky than I recall it being in a while, although ZvT was pretty good. Dark still a bit shaky against top ZvZers as has been the case for a while. It's best for both Dark's and my health if he doesn't face Rogue anymore :/
Nah dawg. Let the Zergs kill each other. Essence flows, the strongest will survive!
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On March 02 2020 01:53 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 01:49 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2020 01:45 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:40 kaykoose wrote:
Congrats Rogue. He doesn't get enough credit around here considering all the big tournaments he wins. He is a good player, very "clutch". But for some reason he isn't high on my favorites chart. Of the 4 players from today's matches I wanted him to win the least. He has to be the player with the lowest succes-fan ratio since like Classic before 2019 Classic suffered more from people not realizing how good he was, with Rogue it's more that people know but don't care it seems.
It must also be something about Rogue's playstyle. He's excellent at reading a game and knowing the balance of forces at particular moments, and he's extremely good at both deciding when to attack and executing those attacks. But in doing so he always utilizes every single dirty advantage he can find in the Zerg race and while that makes perfect sense as a player it is just not great for the viewers. That's probably why he's relatively unpopular imo.
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Northern Ireland24419 Posts
On March 02 2020 02:04 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:01 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 02 2020 01:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:45 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:40 kaykoose wrote:
Congrats Rogue. He doesn't get enough credit around here considering all the big tournaments he wins. He is a good player, very "clutch". But for some reason he isn't high on my favorites chart. Of the 4 players from today's matches I wanted him to win the least. It's probably just his style. Rogue isn't very flashy. He always wins in very standard ways. He doesn't have a trademark aggressive build like Reynor, soO, Life or Dark. He just wins with consistent macro Zerg play. He reminds me a lot of Tim Duncan, a legendary basketball pro, in that way. He's consistent, he's strong, but he doesn't win a lot of fan support with his play outside of his die hard fanbase. Even I wasn't a fan of his until I embraced being a Jin Air fan and that was due to Maru and sOs not him. He gives some decent interviews the odd one I’ve listened to. It’ll be an intriguing year between the three (IMO) best Zergs in Serral, Rogue and Dark. Quite excited for them to duke it out a bit more. Have very little to go on, early in the season really. Serral’s ZvP looked more shaky than I recall it being in a while, although ZvT was pretty good. Dark still a bit shaky against top ZvZers as has been the case for a while. It's best for both Dark's and my health if he doesn't face Rogue anymore :/
Awk I want to see him do it though  Iirc their GSL series was tighter than the Katowice one but I might be wrong.
Anyhow regardless I must photoshop Rogue to look like a white whale if this trend continues
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On March 02 2020 02:01 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 01:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:45 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:40 kaykoose wrote:
Congrats Rogue. He doesn't get enough credit around here considering all the big tournaments he wins. He is a good player, very "clutch". But for some reason he isn't high on my favorites chart. Of the 4 players from today's matches I wanted him to win the least. It's probably just his style. Rogue isn't very flashy. He always wins in very standard ways. He doesn't have a trademark aggressive build like Reynor, soO, Life or Dark. He just wins with consistent macro Zerg play. He reminds me a lot of Tim Duncan, a legendary basketball pro, in that way. He's consistent, he's strong, but he doesn't win a lot of fan support with his play outside of his die hard fanbase. Even I wasn't a fan of his until I embraced being a Jin Air fan and that was due to Maru and sOs not him. He gives some decent interviews the odd one I’ve listened to. It’ll be an intriguing year between the three (IMO) best Zergs in Serral, Rogue and Dark. Quite excited for them to duke it out a bit more. Have very little to go on, early in the season really. Serral’s ZvP looked more shaky than I recall it being in a while, although ZvT was pretty good. Dark still a bit shaky against top ZvZers as has been the case for a while.
I would really like for non-Zerg players to duke it out too.
But if that is too much to ask I think we could at least add Reynor to the list. Even though he disappointed here there is no reason to think he won't continue to improve. And with zerg still very strong Reynor could definitely be a contender for the world championship.
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On March 02 2020 02:07 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:04 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 02:01 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 02 2020 01:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:45 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:40 kaykoose wrote:
Congrats Rogue. He doesn't get enough credit around here considering all the big tournaments he wins. He is a good player, very "clutch". But for some reason he isn't high on my favorites chart. Of the 4 players from today's matches I wanted him to win the least. It's probably just his style. Rogue isn't very flashy. He always wins in very standard ways. He doesn't have a trademark aggressive build like Reynor, soO, Life or Dark. He just wins with consistent macro Zerg play. He reminds me a lot of Tim Duncan, a legendary basketball pro, in that way. He's consistent, he's strong, but he doesn't win a lot of fan support with his play outside of his die hard fanbase. Even I wasn't a fan of his until I embraced being a Jin Air fan and that was due to Maru and sOs not him. He gives some decent interviews the odd one I’ve listened to. It’ll be an intriguing year between the three (IMO) best Zergs in Serral, Rogue and Dark. Quite excited for them to duke it out a bit more. Have very little to go on, early in the season really. Serral’s ZvP looked more shaky than I recall it being in a while, although ZvT was pretty good. Dark still a bit shaky against top ZvZers as has been the case for a while. It's best for both Dark's and my health if he doesn't face Rogue anymore :/ Awk I want to see him do it though Iirc their GSL series was tighter than the Katowice one but I might be wrong. Anyhow regardless I must photoshop Rogue to look like a white whale if this trend continues
Their GSL series wasn't much tighter I'm affraid. Also the last time Dark won offline outside of team leagues was in 2014 (code A)..
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On March 02 2020 02:04 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:
Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced and won vs a high level Korean Terran in the finals except ONE final vs TY.
He rarely gets a chance to face top level Korean Terrans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Don't let his complete massacre of Special in the WCS finals skew the records, Serral is MUCH MUCH better than Special but Special is the best Terran in the WCS so that's an obviously biased result, that you can thank to Region Locking.
If Serral actually wanted to prove something he'd go play in Code S where the competition is actually on or above his level. I've been saying this for years. His meandering and farming of the foreigner scene is all fine and good for his personal wealth, but does nothing to prove he's the best in the world. Why are you only counting finals? A player cant be great in a matchup unless he wins in a finals against said race? That is just silly. Obviously Serral isn't god tier, he was though for half of 2019 he was untouchable. For some reason Xainon still believes he is untouchable and for some reason you think he is weak to terran? All we know right now is that he has shown a weakness to protoss, he stomped innovation and the only ZvZ we saw him play was against Lambo. Serral is unproven against zerg, strong against terran and has a weaknes against protoss. That is what the recent results show, it also shows Rogue is an absolute monster in ZvZ which means he would likely defeat Serral but who knows.
2 things.
I count finals wins more because Finals count more and that's for a variety of reasons that has a lot to do with meta and such.
It doesn't mean anything that Serral beat Terrans at Blizzcon for example when the tournament was 5/8 Zergs. Of COURSE he won against Terran in that tournament. Zerg was completely imbalanced when he did, the structure and placings of that tournament say as much.
When he faces a Terran in the finals, that means that balance was such that a Terran was able to get that far in the first place. Now in some cases like his first GSL vs the World tournament, that was just the result of bad bracket luck. He did face Inno early, but Maru was knocked out by Stats. I get that. I talked about GSL vs the world in a different part of my post because it's an odd outlier of an example.
Serral has more than one thing working in his favor when you talk about how good he is. He wins a hell of a lot because of region locking. He's obviously the best player in the WCS Circuit and that's obvious to everyone, even me. Those wins give him higher seeds and favorable brackets when it comes time to play Blizzcon, meaning he has an advantage ALL YEAR LONG at that tournament vs his Korean competitors. He also TENDS TO (doesn't mean he NEEDS to) win when coincidentally all other Zergs are also doing well.
I am contrary to popular belief a Serral fan. He won my heart at Katowice 2017 when he demolished Trap with Overlord drops. The guy is skilled to a level that he can win in any meta. But his biggest accomplishments ALL COME when Zerg is favored in balance and everyone knows it.
I do not like that. The best win when balance isn't in their favor. Even players that I don't consider GOATs like Taeja have that going for them. Serral doesn't. He has only won major titles when other Zergs are all winning too.The fact he has won so many ZvZ finals is a testament to that.
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On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:56 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2020 00:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:46 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm not upset with these results.
Zerg is too strong, the maps are STILL too Zerg favored, whatever you want to explain it with.
But Zest over Serral is tasty as hell. Rogue over Maru especially how the series went, is just more Jin Air on Jin Air violence that if the brackets were drawn up better might have been held in the finals instead of the semis. I firmly believe Rogue vs Maru was the ACTUAL final of the tournament.
Whatever though. The gap is wider. The gap is approximately the same looking at Katowice 2019 and, I repeat, there is nothing that would suggest that Rogue or Maru would have beaten Serral if he were drawn on their side of the bracket. Sure there is. 3-2 vs 4-1. The numbers don't lie.  That's not how it work lol. But Serral did seems to have a surprising weakness to protoss, even in the game against sOs it was really close. I would have been curious to see how Dark would have fair here, he has not loss a tournament in a non zvz since like Super tournament no1 when he lost to Gumi I think? What's ironic is that Serral also has a weakness vs Terran last year, or a weakness vs Reynor. Perhaps the explanation is even easier. Serral isn't the perfect player his stans like to pretend he is. He's actually just on a high level that high level Koreans can knock off at varying levels. He's at the GSL level where high level GSL players continously knock each other off of. More or less EXACTLY how I've been describing him for 2 years. You are both wrong and right. Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament). At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online). Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno. Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL.
It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements.
Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea.
Let's go on with the very favorable brackets(that's your impression) or the very favorable meta which allow Serral to beat Koreans. In 2018, after Serral started winning, only one other Zerg/Reynor) reached the finals of a Premier tournament; Code S seasons 2 and 3 didn't have a single Zerg in the ro4 while Serral won 6 tournaments(3 with koreans).
Since 2019, after the brief parenthesis of Protoss appearing to be op, Zerg became preminent and, since then, Dark won a Code S, Super Tournament and BlizzCon and Rogue won Code S and IEM Katowice; you don't seem to be questioning their skill tho.
Then, let's ignore the weird ideas about GSL vs the World not counting and Serral having won 6 tournaments(5 Premiers) against koreans not being enough to prove anything.
Eventually, we find out you probably didn't read all of my previous post and you didn't find out we basically agree with how Serral has to be rated now, a top player who could very well win Code S but who is not expected to dominate it; after 2019, Serral has probably been better than any korean(if anything, more consistent for sure), but he didn't really stand above them.
In the second semester of 2018, instead, Serral was clearly above any korean progamer and, without any doubt, the best player in the world. That's what titles and statistics say, no matter how you can be convinced that Serral didn't play enough finals against korean Terran(he played none against korean Zerg, but he soundly beat them at BlizzCon).
Calling in Stats' results at Katowice 2020 says nothing about the level Stats was playing at in 2018; players get better or worse and even change their preferred matchup, not to mention balance changes modify meta in a very relevant way.
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On March 02 2020 02:22 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:56 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2020 00:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:46 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
The gap is approximately the same looking at Katowice 2019 and, I repeat, there is nothing that would suggest that Rogue or Maru would have beaten Serral if he were drawn on their side of the bracket.
Sure there is. 3-2 vs 4-1. The numbers don't lie. That's not how it work lol. But Serral did seems to have a surprising weakness to protoss, even in the game against sOs it was really close. I would have been curious to see how Dark would have fair here, he has not loss a tournament in a non zvz since like Super tournament no1 when he lost to Gumi I think? What's ironic is that Serral also has a weakness vs Terran last year, or a weakness vs Reynor. Perhaps the explanation is even easier. Serral isn't the perfect player his stans like to pretend he is. He's actually just on a high level that high level Koreans can knock off at varying levels. He's at the GSL level where high level GSL players continously knock each other off of. More or less EXACTLY how I've been describing him for 2 years. You are both wrong and right. Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament). At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online). Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno. Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL. It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements. Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea.
Oh BS!
Just because a player is Korean does NOT MEAN they are a member of the GSL Elite! Get that stat out of here! you know it's full of shit just as much as I do. You're intentionally inflating his accomplishments and you know it.
A win vs Solar, Armani or Patience IS NOT the same as a series win vs Maru, Innovation, Classic or Rogue. Algiluac is flawed too because it considers all of those matches as equal. They're not. Any decent Starcraft fan knows that.
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Northern Ireland24419 Posts
On March 02 2020 02:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 02 2020 02:04 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 02:01 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 02 2020 01:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:45 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:40 kaykoose wrote:
Congrats Rogue. He doesn't get enough credit around here considering all the big tournaments he wins. He is a good player, very "clutch". But for some reason he isn't high on my favorites chart. Of the 4 players from today's matches I wanted him to win the least. It's probably just his style. Rogue isn't very flashy. He always wins in very standard ways. He doesn't have a trademark aggressive build like Reynor, soO, Life or Dark. He just wins with consistent macro Zerg play. He reminds me a lot of Tim Duncan, a legendary basketball pro, in that way. He's consistent, he's strong, but he doesn't win a lot of fan support with his play outside of his die hard fanbase. Even I wasn't a fan of his until I embraced being a Jin Air fan and that was due to Maru and sOs not him. He gives some decent interviews the odd one I’ve listened to. It’ll be an intriguing year between the three (IMO) best Zergs in Serral, Rogue and Dark. Quite excited for them to duke it out a bit more. Have very little to go on, early in the season really. Serral’s ZvP looked more shaky than I recall it being in a while, although ZvT was pretty good. Dark still a bit shaky against top ZvZers as has been the case for a while. It's best for both Dark's and my health if he doesn't face Rogue anymore :/ Awk I want to see him do it though Iirc their GSL series was tighter than the Katowice one but I might be wrong. Anyhow regardless I must photoshop Rogue to look like a white whale if this trend continues Their GSL series wasn't much tighter I'm affraid. Also the last time Dark won offline outside of team leagues was in 2014 (code A)..
Dark times indeed
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Northern Ireland24419 Posts
On March 02 2020 02:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:22 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:56 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2020 00:52 Vindicare605 wrote:[quote] Sure there is. 3-2 vs 4-1. The numbers don't lie. That's not how it work lol. But Serral did seems to have a surprising weakness to protoss, even in the game against sOs it was really close. I would have been curious to see how Dark would have fair here, he has not loss a tournament in a non zvz since like Super tournament no1 when he lost to Gumi I think? What's ironic is that Serral also has a weakness vs Terran last year, or a weakness vs Reynor. Perhaps the explanation is even easier. Serral isn't the perfect player his stans like to pretend he is. He's actually just on a high level that high level Koreans can knock off at varying levels. He's at the GSL level where high level GSL players continously knock each other off of. More or less EXACTLY how I've been describing him for 2 years. You are both wrong and right. Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament). At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online). Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno. Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL. It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements. Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea. Oh BS. Just because a player is Korean does NOT MEAN they are a member of the GSL Elite. Get that stat out of here, you know it's full of shit just as much as I do. You're intentionally inflating his accomplishments and you know it. A win vs Solar, Armani or Patience IS NOT the same as a series win vs Maru, Innovation, Classic or Rogue. Algiluac is flawed too because it considers all of those matches as equal. They're not. Any decent Starcraft fan knows that.
In fairness Serral doesn’t really play the Armanis or Patiences of the world very often.
The flipside of this of course was Serral wasn’t consistently kerbstomped by Koreans and was protected a bit by region lock until he was ready, or at least close to his top level.
One of those interesting but not especially useful factoids really.
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On March 02 2020 02:14 Vindicare605 wrote:
It doesn't mean anything that Serral beat Terrans at Blizzcon for example when the tournament was 5/8 Zergs. Of COURSE he won against Terran in that tournament. Zerg was completely imbalanced when he did, the structure and placings of that tournament say as much.
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Are you saying Blizzcon doesn't matter because zerg was imbalanced at the time and the reason you know this if because of the amount of zergs that made RO8? That is simply stupid, a bracket in isolation or the results of one tournament says nothing about over all balance.
Hell look at the ESL EU cup, 0 zergs in the semifinals, guess zerg is underpowered, derp. No thats not how statistics works.
If I would humour you considering Blizzcon 2019, which zergs advanced to the RO8 through an upset proving imbalance?
Should Time have advanced over Serral, should Show time have advanced over soO, should herO have advanced over Reynor, or maybe Neeb over Rogue? No, the results we got was expected, not because of the players but because of the players.
Show me the statistics overall, over a long time period that show a race was imbalanced. Your whole X race was op during Y tournament because look at the results is just stupid.
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On March 02 2020 02:32 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 02:22 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:56 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
That's not how it work lol.
But Serral did seems to have a surprising weakness to protoss, even in the game against sOs it was really close.
I would have been curious to see how Dark would have fair here, he has not loss a tournament in a non zvz since like Super tournament no1 when he lost to Gumi I think? What's ironic is that Serral also has a weakness vs Terran last year, or a weakness vs Reynor. Perhaps the explanation is even easier. Serral isn't the perfect player his stans like to pretend he is. He's actually just on a high level that high level Koreans can knock off at varying levels. He's at the GSL level where high level GSL players continously knock each other off of. More or less EXACTLY how I've been describing him for 2 years. You are both wrong and right. Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament). At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online). Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno. Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL. It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements. Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea. Oh BS. Just because a player is Korean does NOT MEAN they are a member of the GSL Elite. Get that stat out of here, you know it's full of shit just as much as I do. You're intentionally inflating his accomplishments and you know it. A win vs Solar, Armani or Patience IS NOT the same as a series win vs Maru, Innovation, Classic or Rogue. Algiluac is flawed too because it considers all of those matches as equal. They're not. Any decent Starcraft fan knows that. In fairness Serral doesn’t really play the Armanis or Patiences of the world very often. The flipside of this of course was Serral wasn’t consistently kerbstomped by Koreans and was protected a bit by region lock until he was ready, or at least close to his top level. One of those interesting but not especially useful factoids really.
I bet you, I BET YOU, if you saw the breakdown of every Korean opponent he's ever played and saw the results, you'd see where the bias is.
Xianon obviously took that stat of Algiulac. Why do I know that? because it's the easiest thing to do.
Algiulac doesn't care about the level of player. It sees country of origin and puts them in that category. Meaning Serral in online cups or offline tournaments can beat ANYONE with that country of origin characteristic and it falls in that stat.
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On March 02 2020 02:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:22 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:56 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2020 00:52 Vindicare605 wrote:[quote] Sure there is. 3-2 vs 4-1. The numbers don't lie. That's not how it work lol. But Serral did seems to have a surprising weakness to protoss, even in the game against sOs it was really close. I would have been curious to see how Dark would have fair here, he has not loss a tournament in a non zvz since like Super tournament no1 when he lost to Gumi I think? What's ironic is that Serral also has a weakness vs Terran last year, or a weakness vs Reynor. Perhaps the explanation is even easier. Serral isn't the perfect player his stans like to pretend he is. He's actually just on a high level that high level Koreans can knock off at varying levels. He's at the GSL level where high level GSL players continously knock each other off of. More or less EXACTLY how I've been describing him for 2 years. You are both wrong and right. Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament). At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online). Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno. Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL. It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements. Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea. Oh BS. Just because a player is Korean does NOT MEAN they are a member of the GSL Elite. Get that stat out of here, you know it's full of shit just as much as I do. You're intentionally inflating his accomplishments and you know it. A win vs Solar, Armani or Patience IS NOT the same as a series win vs Maru, Innovation, Classic or Rogue. Algiluac is flawed too because it considers all of those matches as equal. They're not. Any decent Starcraft fan knows that.
In fact that's why Serral's score against koreans is so amazing! He almost never plays against low tier koreans, he only plays against the best. You are extremely wrong or just outright lying, can't say.
Let's take a look at Serral's scores against the top koreans he played the most since June 2018(bo1 are included, but his last loss against Zest wasn't included so Serral is actually 42-9):3-0 Dark, 2-0 Rogue, 5-1 soO, 5-3 Inno, 3-0 TY, 5-3 Stats, 3-0 Trap, 3-1 Zest, 2-0 sOs.
Patience and Armani, right? Not consistently beating top koreans? What have you been watching?
Your idea of Serral winning with metas favorable to Zerg is wrong as well(see my post above).
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On March 02 2020 02:38 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:14 Vindicare605 wrote:
It doesn't mean anything that Serral beat Terrans at Blizzcon for example when the tournament was 5/8 Zergs. Of COURSE he won against Terran in that tournament. Zerg was completely imbalanced when he did, the structure and placings of that tournament say as much.
. Are you saying Blizzcon doesn't matter because zerg was imbalanced at the time and the reason you know this if because of the amount of zergs that made RO8? That is simply stupid, a bracket in isolation or the results of one tournament says nothing about over all balance. Hell look at the ESL EU cup, 0 zergs in the semifinals, guess zerg is underpowered, derp. No thats not how statistics works. If I would humour you considering Blizzcon 2019, which zergs advanced to the RO8 through an upset proving imbalance? Should Time have advanced over Serral, should Show time have advanced over soO, should herO have advanced over Reynor, or maybe Neeb over Rogue? No, the results we got was expected, not because of the players but because of the players. Show me the statistics overall, over a long time period that show a race was imbalanced. Your whole X race was op during Y tournament because look at the results is just stupid.
2019 didn't matter. Yes I will say that.
The meta, the maps. everything said that it was a foregone conclusion that a Zerg would win the finals that year. The only question was WHICH Zerg and if you look at my history I've never ONCE criticized Serral as a ZvZ pro. He's obviously proven he can beat anyone in THAT match up.
Can you really tell me that long term stats reflect that? Of course they don't.Starcraft doesn't work that way because the game is ALWAYS in flux and there always other factors.
But if you go back and look at context to what was happening during each tournament the data looks different. If you just crunch raw numbers without context you get a very different story. But in situations like these, numbers without context is meaningless.
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On March 02 2020 02:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:22 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:56 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2020 00:52 Vindicare605 wrote:[quote] Sure there is. 3-2 vs 4-1. The numbers don't lie. That's not how it work lol. But Serral did seems to have a surprising weakness to protoss, even in the game against sOs it was really close. I would have been curious to see how Dark would have fair here, he has not loss a tournament in a non zvz since like Super tournament no1 when he lost to Gumi I think? What's ironic is that Serral also has a weakness vs Terran last year, or a weakness vs Reynor. Perhaps the explanation is even easier. Serral isn't the perfect player his stans like to pretend he is. He's actually just on a high level that high level Koreans can knock off at varying levels. He's at the GSL level where high level GSL players continously knock each other off of. More or less EXACTLY how I've been describing him for 2 years. You are both wrong and right. Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament). At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online). Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno. Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL. It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements. Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea. Oh BS! Just because a player is Korean does NOT MEAN they are a member of the GSL Elite! Get that stat out of here! you know it's full of shit just as much as I do. You're intentionally inflating his accomplishments and you know it. A win vs Solar, Armani or Patience IS NOT the same as a series win vs Maru, Innovation, Classic or Rogue. Algiluac is flawed too because it considers all of those matches as equal. They're not. Any decent Starcraft fan knows that.
Its not bullshit, players like Solar and Patience are definitely high class GSL players. They take wins over the players you mention all the time, yet they could not take Serral down.
On some days Solar is better that Innovation and Maru, on other days not, they are close in skill level. Sure Maru and Inno has higher peaks when in form but that doesn't mean that they are always in form.
By your logic maybe we should also consider what form players are in, meaning any player that lose and doesn't get to the finals are not in form and therefore beating them doesn't mean anything because obvbiously they are off their game and cant be compared to the GSL elite when in form.
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On March 02 2020 02:43 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 02:22 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:32 Penev wrote:On March 02 2020 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:24 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 01:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2020 00:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 00:56 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
That's not how it work lol.
But Serral did seems to have a surprising weakness to protoss, even in the game against sOs it was really close.
I would have been curious to see how Dark would have fair here, he has not loss a tournament in a non zvz since like Super tournament no1 when he lost to Gumi I think? What's ironic is that Serral also has a weakness vs Terran last year, or a weakness vs Reynor. Perhaps the explanation is even easier. Serral isn't the perfect player his stans like to pretend he is. He's actually just on a high level that high level Koreans can knock off at varying levels. He's at the GSL level where high level GSL players continously knock each other off of. More or less EXACTLY how I've been describing him for 2 years. You are both wrong and right. Since Katowice 2019, Serral has effectively been at top tier GSL level despite being at least more consistently good than any other player at that level(never below a ro8 in international tournament). At his peak in the second half of 2018, Serral was pretty much the perfect player you are describing: he literally won every single offline series he played(losing one online). Serral had no weakness to Terran, you are implying/suggesting he had because Maru 3-0d him months before Serral started winning everything but in reality Serral went 4-0 over Inno and Maru at GSL vs The World in 2018 and won a Terran heavy HSC over Inno. Both Inno AND TY beat him in 2019. In 2018 he never faced a high level Korean in the finals except ONE final vs TY. He rarely gets a chance to face top level Koreans in actual tournament finals. When he does, his record is barely better than 50-50 if its better than 50-50 at all. Your memory is at fault or maybe you think Stats in 2018 was not a high level korean, which would just be plain wrong; TY has never beaten Serral, too. Serral is 3-1 in Premier tournament finals against koreans(4-3 Stats, 4-2 Stats, 4-3 Inno in 2018 and 3-4 Inno in 2019) and you can add to this that he won HSC XIX against TY(it was a Major and they technically tied 3-3 since Serral started 1-0). Read my post again, I edited it. I obviously was referring to Korean Terrans (hence my weakness vs Terran comment earlier.) Serral can beat Stats. That's obvious. He's proven that. But he's won two tournaments off that result. Reminder that Stats died in the Ro12 of THIS tournament. Just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite. As I've said before,again and again. I believe Serral is at that GSL elite level. He can compete. But nothing has shown me he can dominate consistently. He has the potential to be a GSL champ. But he hasn't proven it. Those are the players he SHOULD be competing against. He only does it a couple times a year, and when he does, he only wins SOMETIMES, and usually with a favorable bracket or meta to help him. If he wants to prove to me he's the best, he'd win in THEIR tournament. As of now, he's only defending home court, only winning in HIS tournaments, and even there, his record is 50-50. Not convinced. He hasn't proven anything to me, and no GSL vs the World does not count. Those matches are show matches, and the Koreans treat them as such. Artosis knows it. I know it. It's obvious. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this. Serral is up there, doesn't mean he'd constantly beat everyone in GSL. It's extremely easy and reasonable to disagree with these statements. Let's start with the biggest offender, "just because Serral can beat Stats doesn't mean he can consistently beat the rest of the GSL elite": since June 2018, Serral is 42-8(115-46) in offline series against koreans; this record starts with a 19-0 streak which is the biggest anyone has ever achieved against players from South Korea. Oh BS! Just because a player is Korean does NOT MEAN they are a member of the GSL Elite! Get that stat out of here! you know it's full of shit just as much as I do. You're intentionally inflating his accomplishments and you know it. A win vs Solar, Armani or Patience IS NOT the same as a series win vs Maru, Innovation, Classic or Rogue. Algiluac is flawed too because it considers all of those matches as equal. They're not. Any decent Starcraft fan knows that. Its not bullshit, players like Solar and Patience are definitely high class GSL players. They take wins over the players you mention all the time, yet they could not take Serral down. On some days Solar is better that Innovation and Maru, on other days not, they are close in skill level. Sure Maru and Inno has higher peaks when in form but that doesn't mean that they are always in form. By your logic maybe we should also consider what form players are in, meaning any player that lose and doesn't get to the finals are not in form and therefore beating them doesn't mean anything because obvbiously they are off their game and cant be compared to the GSL elite when in form.
If Serral played in GSL consistently he'd get series or maps taken off of him by outliers too. They get a chance to prepare, that's part of what makes the GSL so great.
Serral only plays them in his favored format and only occasionaly. It's not the same thing.
I agree that the GSL exposes that every player is mortal. If Serral played there, he would look much less dominant than he looks now crushing on foreigner opponents in the WCS. The only reason people consider him to be so good is because of how often he wins and he only wins as often as he does because he's protected by region locking. Shove him into the Korean sphere and he'd be considered good sure, but not the all time best.
That's how I see it. He's done nothing to prove me wrong.
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On March 02 2020 02:42 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 02 2020 02:14 Vindicare605 wrote:
It doesn't mean anything that Serral beat Terrans at Blizzcon for example when the tournament was 5/8 Zergs. Of COURSE he won against Terran in that tournament. Zerg was completely imbalanced when he did, the structure and placings of that tournament say as much.
. Are you saying Blizzcon doesn't matter because zerg was imbalanced at the time and the reason you know this if because of the amount of zergs that made RO8? That is simply stupid, a bracket in isolation or the results of one tournament says nothing about over all balance. Hell look at the ESL EU cup, 0 zergs in the semifinals, guess zerg is underpowered, derp. No thats not how statistics works. If I would humour you considering Blizzcon 2019, which zergs advanced to the RO8 through an upset proving imbalance? Should Time have advanced over Serral, should Show time have advanced over soO, should herO have advanced over Reynor, or maybe Neeb over Rogue? No, the results we got was expected, not because of the players but because of the players. Show me the statistics overall, over a long time period that show a race was imbalanced. Your whole X race was op during Y tournament because look at the results is just stupid. 2019 didn't matter. Yes I will say that. The meta, the maps. everything said that it was a foregone conclusion that a Zerg would win the finals that year. The only question was WHICH Zerg. Can you really tell me that long term stats reflect that? Of course they don't.Starcraft doesn't work that way because the game is ALWAYS in flux and there always other factors. But if you go back and look at context to what was happening during each tournament the data looks different. If you just crunch raw numbers without context you get a very different story. But in situations like these, numbers without context is meaningless.
The flaw here is that the "context" you are talking about is undefined and only exist in your head. I agree with your argument, but the context you see is not the one the rest of us see. It is possible zerg is Op, maybe for a long time but there is no information to support it, it is just an opinion taken from the air.
You say numbers mean nothing straight after you used numbers yourself to support your opinion. Choose, either numbers matter or they don't. You cant just choose to use stats when they support your claim but dissmiss them when they don't.
You have said nothing that actually show any context as to why zerg would be op, because as you say there are no such proof. Only little feeling living in your gut, a feeling you have been trying to find proof of exist but cant.
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On March 02 2020 02:47 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 02:42 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2020 02:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 02 2020 02:14 Vindicare605 wrote:
It doesn't mean anything that Serral beat Terrans at Blizzcon for example when the tournament was 5/8 Zergs. Of COURSE he won against Terran in that tournament. Zerg was completely imbalanced when he did, the structure and placings of that tournament say as much.
. Are you saying Blizzcon doesn't matter because zerg was imbalanced at the time and the reason you know this if because of the amount of zergs that made RO8? That is simply stupid, a bracket in isolation or the results of one tournament says nothing about over all balance. Hell look at the ESL EU cup, 0 zergs in the semifinals, guess zerg is underpowered, derp. No thats not how statistics works. If I would humour you considering Blizzcon 2019, which zergs advanced to the RO8 through an upset proving imbalance? Should Time have advanced over Serral, should Show time have advanced over soO, should herO have advanced over Reynor, or maybe Neeb over Rogue? No, the results we got was expected, not because of the players but because of the players. Show me the statistics overall, over a long time period that show a race was imbalanced. Your whole X race was op during Y tournament because look at the results is just stupid. 2019 didn't matter. Yes I will say that. The meta, the maps. everything said that it was a foregone conclusion that a Zerg would win the finals that year. The only question was WHICH Zerg. Can you really tell me that long term stats reflect that? Of course they don't.Starcraft doesn't work that way because the game is ALWAYS in flux and there always other factors. But if you go back and look at context to what was happening during each tournament the data looks different. If you just crunch raw numbers without context you get a very different story. But in situations like these, numbers without context is meaningless. The flaw here is that the "context" you are talking about is undefined and only exist in your head. I agree with your argument, but the context you see is not the one the rest of us see. It is possible zerg is Op, maybe for a long time but there is no information to support it, it is just an opinion taken from the air. You say numbers mean nothing straight after you used numbers yourself to support your opinion. Choose, either numbers matter or they don't. You cant just choose to use stats when they support your claim but dissmiss them when they don't. You have said nothing that actually show any context as to why zerg would be op, because as you say there are no such proof. Only little feeling living in your gut, a feeling you have been trying to find proof of exist but cant.
Numbers matter when the context supports them. Go back to two maybe 3 posts of mine prior where I talk about why Finals matches matter more. I've already addressed your criticism of my argument, please address that first.
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EPT
