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On May 20 2019 09:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 08:33 Xain0n wrote:On May 20 2019 08:32 JJH777 wrote:On May 20 2019 07:53 Dave4 wrote:
And now we see why Serral deserved to go on, not Classic.
Unfortunate Serral has so many haters. If you put Classic through the same lineup of players that Serral went through Classic gets through them just as easily. This run told us nothing that we didn't already know. Reynor? Special? Are you sure? It's kinda funny that Classic has lost the last series he's played against Reynor and Special. But regardless winning a fifth WCS only slightly bolsters Serral's achievement portfolio.
Serral has also lost against Reynor.
Classic absolutely could do it but he wouldn't be guaranteed to do so. Not even Serral is as evidenced by his loss at WCS Winter.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 20 2019 09:10 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 08:33 Xain0n wrote:On May 20 2019 08:32 JJH777 wrote:On May 20 2019 07:53 Dave4 wrote:
And now we see why Serral deserved to go on, not Classic.
Unfortunate Serral has so many haters. If you put Classic through the same lineup of players that Serral went through Classic gets through them just as easily. This run told us nothing that we didn't already know. Reynor? Special? Are you sure? Maybe he does maybe he doesn’t. Winning 5 with one runner’s up and this latest one not even breaking a sweat I’m not sure. Serral is ridiculous in 2/3 matchups and his vT is, while relatively worse is still pretty crazy too. I wouldn’t count out Classic for being able to do by any means, would be pretty hard for any player though. You have to be basically unsnipable in any particular matchup, or hope that your threats are struggling in a matchup. You basically have to go in being in shape in all 3, or one of Neeb/Special or Serral/Scarlett can account for your tournament if their vP is in a good place, or a whole bunch of dangerous floaters. I still think Classic absolutely could do it, I just don’t think it’s the nothing achievement some people make out
Classic just won a full Korean tournament and got to the GSL finals. Considering how stacked Korea is compared to WCS it's not like Classic wasn't doing anything. And 9/10 times he will win against all the foreigners the same way Serral is winning, let's not pretend it's the other way around.
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On May 20 2019 13:34 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 11:29 Nakajin wrote:On May 20 2019 07:53 Dave4 wrote:
And now we see why Serral deserved to go on, not Classic.
Unfortunate Serral has so many haters.
User was temp banned for this post. 44 pages before a ban guy, I'm proud of y'all. Honestly surprised he even got temp banned for just posting his opinion, especially when he posted it after Serral won an event O.o + Show Spoiler +like, his post isn't even aggressive or negative in regards to classic - just that he thinks classic deserved something less than some1 who just won an event o.o...?wut Coulda made it even further 
Makes me wonder why Mariano wasn't banned yet..
Topic:
Congratz to Classic for advancing in this nailbiter vote and Inno ofc
Next votes are soO, despite my Liquid'bias and herO despite loving Dark. His bad boy attitude has reached MC levels and I love it :D
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On May 20 2019 15:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 09:10 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 20 2019 08:33 Xain0n wrote:On May 20 2019 08:32 JJH777 wrote:On May 20 2019 07:53 Dave4 wrote:
And now we see why Serral deserved to go on, not Classic.
Unfortunate Serral has so many haters. If you put Classic through the same lineup of players that Serral went through Classic gets through them just as easily. This run told us nothing that we didn't already know. Reynor? Special? Are you sure? Maybe he does maybe he doesn’t. Winning 5 with one runner’s up and this latest one not even breaking a sweat I’m not sure. Serral is ridiculous in 2/3 matchups and his vT is, while relatively worse is still pretty crazy too. I wouldn’t count out Classic for being able to do by any means, would be pretty hard for any player though. You have to be basically unsnipable in any particular matchup, or hope that your threats are struggling in a matchup. You basically have to go in being in shape in all 3, or one of Neeb/Special or Serral/Scarlett can account for your tournament if their vP is in a good place, or a whole bunch of dangerous floaters. I still think Classic absolutely could do it, I just don’t think it’s the nothing achievement some people make out Classic just won a full Korean tournament and got to the GSL finals. Considering how stacked Korea is compared to WCS it's not like Classic wasn't doing anything. And 9/10 times he will win against all the foreigners the same way Serral is winning, let's not pretend it's the other way around.
I said in my post he is capable of doing though.
WCS in current years seems pretty comparable relative to the scene with the early WCS NA version, I full expected the Koreans with real premiere/Code S pedigree to consistently dominate that and none of them actually did.
Certainly possible, it’s not a gimme by any means though.
Another factor, not sure how big or small, but Classic doesn’t know the foreign scene like foreigners do, which would come into play in a weekender like we just saw.
Who are the cheesy players, who are predictable players than can be exploited etc. He has all of this knowledge of the Korean scene and it must factor into his strategic prep, he almost certainly doesn’t know how say, goblin plays.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly.
If soO had some seconds spread out over 5 years or something I’d think a bit differently, it was having those streaks and heartbreak, plus the competitions were the highest there.
HerO is pretty underrated IMO, I think part of it is that compensation you allude to.
Along with Bomber his fall-off is partly explicable by age as well. Apart from NesTea, people seem to have a wonky idea of what age some players are. HerO is older at 28 than Classic is for example, Bomber another few years older
HerO’s accomplishments are super impressive given how mentally shaky the guy could be, I don’t tend to factor that in though, but even just meeting him mid that first DreamHack the guy was visibly incredibly nervous, and that was just in the middle of the event not even prior to a game or whatever.
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On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly.
There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja
In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year
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On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year
If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller.
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I think the thing about the HerO vs soO vote is that it isn't very polarized. There might be a spectrum of opinions from soO being slightly greater than HerO to much greater than HerO, but that doesn't get you any votes either way. Hence all the people who think it should be a 55-45 matchup but all vote for soO as a result.
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On May 21 2019 01:12 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
I think the thing about the HerO vs soO vote is that it isn't very polarized. There might be a spectrum of opinions from soO being slightly greater than HerO to much greater than HerO, but that doesn't get you any votes either way. Hence all the people who think it should be a 55-45 matchup but all vote for soO as a result.
That describes me. I voted for HerO as a pity vote. I think soO is the greater player. But not by a landslide. More like he's got slightly better results (but HerO was a baller). Meanwhile I think herO is considerably greater than Dark (and I don't even LIKE herO), yet somehow Dark is pretty close. I voted for Dark in the expectation that it was a one-sided stomp and I could do my fanboy vote without jeopardizing the easy victory for the greater player.
E: I mean. herO is greater than Dark off his proleague performance alone, let alone all the individual titles he collected in HotS
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On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller.
My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well.
Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title.
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On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller.
There's definitely a pro baller bias
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On May 21 2019 01:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. There's definitely a pro baller bias
Duh, as well there should be.
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On May 21 2019 01:47 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well. Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title.
This has made me think that it would be interesting to do another thread after this for most talented of all time. It would be interesting to see how the players stack up differently. Taeja seemed to have a natural talent that was totally insane. I remember him for those two GSL runs before he retired, where he said he didn't have a build planned and he watched the other players' games on the day and wound up using their builds to get out of the group. That was some crazy open-handed playing skill in a prep tournament.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On May 21 2019 18:24 neutralrobot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 01:47 Bagration wrote:On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well. Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title. This has made me think that it would be interesting to do another thread after this for most talented of all time. It would be interesting to see how the players stack up differently. Taeja seemed to have a natural talent that was totally insane. I remember him for those two GSL runs before he retired, where he said he didn't have a build planned and he watched the other players' games on the day and wound up using their builds to get out of the group. That was some crazy open-handed playing skill in a prep tournament.
It’s super hard to do because everyone does kind of work pretty damn hard to get to a certain level, but it’s a fun exercise.
Taeja is definitely up there, plus he has all the achievements as well that I have him high in GOAT lists.
Stephano was really ahead of the curve in strategic thinking and understanding and his talent was pretty obvious.
I’m not sure who else springs to mind off-hand, I’ll have to have a think.
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On May 21 2019 18:24 neutralrobot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 01:47 Bagration wrote:On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well. Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title. This has made me think that it would be interesting to do another thread after this for most talented of all time. It would be interesting to see how the players stack up differently. Taeja seemed to have a natural talent that was totally insane. I remember him for those two GSL runs before he retired, where he said he didn't have a build planned and he watched the other players' games on the day and wound up using their builds to get out of the group. That was some crazy open-handed playing skill in a prep tournament.
I hat to say it but in terms of talent Life probably wins.
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On May 21 2019 18:24 neutralrobot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 01:47 Bagration wrote:On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well. Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title. This has made me think that it would be interesting to do another thread after this for most talented of all time. It would be interesting to see how the players stack up differently. Taeja seemed to have a natural talent that was totally insane. I remember him for those two GSL runs before he retired, where he said he didn't have a build planned and he watched the other players' games on the day and wound up using their builds to get out of the group. That was some crazy open-handed playing skill in a prep tournament.
Can't really tell for Koreans, but in the foreign world there is Stephano (probably the most raw talent), TLO and his creativeness and now Serral / Reynor
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 21 2019 21:10 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 18:24 neutralrobot wrote:On May 21 2019 01:47 Bagration wrote:On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well. Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title. This has made me think that it would be interesting to do another thread after this for most talented of all time. It would be interesting to see how the players stack up differently. Taeja seemed to have a natural talent that was totally insane. I remember him for those two GSL runs before he retired, where he said he didn't have a build planned and he watched the other players' games on the day and wound up using their builds to get out of the group. That was some crazy open-handed playing skill in a prep tournament. It’s super hard to do because everyone does kind of work pretty damn hard to get to a certain level, but it’s a fun exercise. Taeja is definitely up there, plus he has all the achievements as well that I have him high in GOAT lists. Stephano was really ahead of the curve in strategic thinking and understanding and his talent was pretty obvious. I’m not sure who else springs to mind off-hand, I’ll have to have a think.
It's hard to say without knowing each player practice regime, but TaeJa and Life are the obvious answers, they just seemed to get it so much easier than everybody. Life vs Lilbow at Blizzcon was a good example, he just showed up and did whatever and then there's the good old story of TaeJa coming to the Liquid house for a week and not play a single game of Starcraft all his time there then destroying everyone at the next Dreamhack.
It sad that both their career were short, especially TaeJa he could have done so much if he just push throught a bit, he's probably the only one who could win half his tournament and want to retired every 3 months.
His last GSL runs were amazing without giving a fair shot, if only he had stick with the game, keep up with his practices and took care of his wrist he would have been another Maru. Maybe he his gonna come back for real this year, it would be super hype.
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On May 21 2019 23:51 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:10 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 21 2019 18:24 neutralrobot wrote:On May 21 2019 01:47 Bagration wrote:On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well. Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title. This has made me think that it would be interesting to do another thread after this for most talented of all time. It would be interesting to see how the players stack up differently. Taeja seemed to have a natural talent that was totally insane. I remember him for those two GSL runs before he retired, where he said he didn't have a build planned and he watched the other players' games on the day and wound up using their builds to get out of the group. That was some crazy open-handed playing skill in a prep tournament. It’s super hard to do because everyone does kind of work pretty damn hard to get to a certain level, but it’s a fun exercise. Taeja is definitely up there, plus he has all the achievements as well that I have him high in GOAT lists. Stephano was really ahead of the curve in strategic thinking and understanding and his talent was pretty obvious. I’m not sure who else springs to mind off-hand, I’ll have to have a think. It's hard to say without knowing each player practice regime, but TaeJa and Life are the obvious answers, they just seemed to get it so much easier than everybody. Life vs Lilbow at Blizzcon was a good example, he just showed up and did whatever and then there's the good old story of TaeJa coming to the Liquid house for a week and not play a single game of Starcraft all his time there then destroying everyone at the next Dreamhack. It sad that both their career were short, especially TaeJa he could have done so much if he just push throught a bit, he's probably the only one who could win half his tournament and want to retired every 3 months. His last GSL runs were amazing without giving a fair shot, if only he had stick with the game, keep up with his practices and took care of his wrist he would have been another Maru. Maybe he his gonna come back for real this year, it would be super hype.
Taeja's still playing in Korea, he just hasn't been able to qualify for GSL for the past three seasons since he finished his military service.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On May 21 2019 23:51 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:10 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 21 2019 18:24 neutralrobot wrote:On May 21 2019 01:47 Bagration wrote:On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well. Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title. This has made me think that it would be interesting to do another thread after this for most talented of all time. It would be interesting to see how the players stack up differently. Taeja seemed to have a natural talent that was totally insane. I remember him for those two GSL runs before he retired, where he said he didn't have a build planned and he watched the other players' games on the day and wound up using their builds to get out of the group. That was some crazy open-handed playing skill in a prep tournament. It’s super hard to do because everyone does kind of work pretty damn hard to get to a certain level, but it’s a fun exercise. Taeja is definitely up there, plus he has all the achievements as well that I have him high in GOAT lists. Stephano was really ahead of the curve in strategic thinking and understanding and his talent was pretty obvious. I’m not sure who else springs to mind off-hand, I’ll have to have a think. It's hard to say without knowing each player practice regime, but TaeJa and Life are the obvious answers, they just seemed to get it so much easier than everybody. Life vs Lilbow at Blizzcon was a good example, he just showed up and did whatever and then there's the good old story of TaeJa coming to the Liquid house for a week and not play a single game of Starcraft all his time there then destroying everyone at the next Dreamhack. It sad that both their career were short, especially TaeJa he could have done so much if he just push throught a bit, he's probably the only one who could win half his tournament and want to retired every 3 months. His last GSL runs were amazing without giving a fair shot, if only he had stick with the game, keep up with his practices and took care of his wrist he would have been another Maru. Maybe he his gonna come back for real this year, it would be super hype.
Who knows really? Perhaps Taeja put in Taeja performances because he was (relatively) relaxed and if he did put in a grind he might perform worse. We see it a fair amount in Europe where some players actually do better as part-timers than full time because of the mental aspect of the game.
The wrist issues are separate to that of course, unfortunate for Taeja himself obviously and also the fans, both of Taeja and the game himself.
Unlike a certain player him dropping off is something outside of his control
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On May 21 2019 23:51 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:10 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 21 2019 18:24 neutralrobot wrote:On May 21 2019 01:47 Bagration wrote:On May 21 2019 00:39 Jealous wrote:On May 21 2019 00:16 Bagration wrote:On May 20 2019 14:27 Acrofales wrote:
Damn. If I had known herO vs Dark was so close, I would've voted for herO. His career has been far greater than Dark's. I just wanted to get my fanboy vote in, because Dark is the way more interesting player.
This site is weird. It's like there's an anti-liquid-bias to compensate for the liquid-bias the staff has? I mean, soO probably should win it, but in terms of actual prizes, HerO has him quite solidly beaten. People really ranking seconds places highly. There's definitely a GSL / Korean scene bias, and that's likely why people don't rate Hero (and Taeja) higher - neither of them got further than the semi finals of any premier Korean tournament. And so, there's the perception that Liquid's duo were just beating up on weaker foreign competition - probably more so for Hero and much less so for Taeja In fact, we see this bias now for Serral - same argument, different year If you're playing in college hoops for 90+% of your career no one should think of you as a pro baller. My general approach is that I won't significantly discount a player's foreign winnings if they've proven that they can win in Korea. Guys like Mvp, MMA, MC all won a lot of foreign tournaments, but each also won multiple GSLs and proved that they could dominate at the highest level as well. Taeja was an absolute top tier player, but will never be considered the GOAT because he never got that Korean title. This has made me think that it would be interesting to do another thread after this for most talented of all time. It would be interesting to see how the players stack up differently. Taeja seemed to have a natural talent that was totally insane. I remember him for those two GSL runs before he retired, where he said he didn't have a build planned and he watched the other players' games on the day and wound up using their builds to get out of the group. That was some crazy open-handed playing skill in a prep tournament. It’s super hard to do because everyone does kind of work pretty damn hard to get to a certain level, but it’s a fun exercise. Taeja is definitely up there, plus he has all the achievements as well that I have him high in GOAT lists. Stephano was really ahead of the curve in strategic thinking and understanding and his talent was pretty obvious. I’m not sure who else springs to mind off-hand, I’ll have to have a think. It's hard to say without knowing each player practice regime, but TaeJa and Life are the obvious answers, they just seemed to get it so much easier than everybody. Life vs Lilbow at Blizzcon was a good example, he just showed up and did whatever and then there's the good old story of TaeJa coming to the Liquid house for a week and not play a single game of Starcraft all his time there then destroying everyone at the next Dreamhack. It sad that both their career were short, especially TaeJa he could have done so much if he just push throught a bit, he's probably the only one who could win half his tournament and want to retired every 3 months. His last GSL runs were amazing without giving a fair shot, if only he had stick with the game, keep up with his practices and took care of his wrist he would have been another Maru. Maybe he his gonna come back for real this year, it would be super hype.
Yeah, there's a lot of guess work in the whole thing, maybe even more so than measuring "greatness". Another name that comes to mind is Rain. That guy was top tier right out of the gate when KESPA switched (while most of his peers were still struggling), and was quickly able to pull off a level of play that I'm not sure we'd ever seen before for protoss.
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EPT
