Also, I have to admit that at first, I thought the idea of this thread was a bit odd but now it makes sense to me. I did not expect discussion to be this contentious lol.
On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote: Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't. The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly.
I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt.
Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice.
Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be.
Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him
Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results.
Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results.
You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional.
On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:
On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote:
On May 17 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] The_Red Viper has laid it down pretty well. Classic has objectively better achievements in his career and I haven't heard a "decent rationale" that makes it seem reasonable to vote for Serral.
WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then.
You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that.
Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard.
On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out.
Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements.
Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia.
Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now).
gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20
total of 48.75
Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts
I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial.
On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:
On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote: You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral. The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are. Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll.
The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased?
If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results:
Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018
Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now.
The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it.
Now go ahead, argue with facts.
Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible.
First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie.
Not a lie - according to my criteria that's absolutely true. But I give you that if you value WCS victories very highly it's possible that Serral's achievements surpass half of Classic's achievements. By no even remotely reasonable criteria Serral's results surpass Classic's though so the votes for him are entirely due to bias.
No real discussion can ever exist if our point of views are so radically different; what you say can only be true if you ignore WCS or consider them irrelevant. These are not reasonable criteria to me, it's due to extreme korean elitism.
I understand that your criteria is emphasizing major wins and ignoring ro8 but I personally disagree with this criteria. I think I agree more with The Red Viper's criteria, which values every result. Of course a win is more important than a final but I think that it is not so much more important that one should prioritize looking at wins when comparing player's achievements. That is why I think it is reasonable to say a 2nd place is worth half of a win and ro4 is worth half of a 2nd place. I think that acknowledges that a win is much more significant than the other results but it helps players like soO who didn't win very many tournaments, but made plenty of finals. In fairness, The Red Viper's criteria is very flawed because assigning points to different results is super subjective but it still looks reasonable to me, especially since most other ways to quantify results (that most would agree are reasonable) would probably give Classic a lead that is proportionately as large or even larger.
In fairness, give Serral 2 more years and I think he would surpass Classic in achievements. He might even be in the running for one of the greatest of all time. But imo, he is not at that point just yet.
I’m not sure results are linear though, they’re logarithmic in a way, and it depends on the field too.
Is winning a tournament equivalent to 2 runner’s ups in a greatness sense? Is winning something equivalent to 4 semi finals?
The further down you go, the less it seems you can’t just halve points. Is being in the Ro32 32 times and going no further greater than someone who wins a tournament?
On May 19 2019 04:39 Pandain wrote: As an aside, it's obvious that people who heavily doubted Serral the whole past year will greatly diminish what he accomplished, but for maybe a not-so-obvious reason.
If you think that Serral was never the best player in the world, or maybe he only proved it at Blizzcon and additionally showed his ZvT was shown to be super weak at HSC, then you have a completely different perspective on his year than someone who thinks Serral was the best player of the year for nearly half of it, and proved it three different times.
It's two completely different perspectives on the same streak.
For instance, as someone who thought Serral was definitely the best at least by the time GSL vs the World came, those two victories and HSC were international defense titles at three different times for best player in the world, done over a long period of time and further proven by his complete unquestioned dominance over the foreign scene.
That actually makes a lot of sense, kind of makes me see Serrals accomplishments in a different light.
On May 19 2019 04:40 Anc13nt wrote: Also, I have to admit that at first, I thought the idea of this thread was a bit odd but now it makes sense to me. I did not expect discussion to be this contentious lol.
Deluded Serral fanboy X again showing just how much he does not understand the game? No surprise here really. Although considering Serrals career achievements even remotely close to Classic is really embarrassing, even for him...
On May 19 2019 07:06 MarianoSC2 wrote: Deluded Serral fanboy X again showing just how much he does not understand the game? No surprise here really. Although considering Serrals career achievements even remotely close to Classic is really embarrassing, even for him...
It’s much more embarrassing to read stuff like this which apparently hasn’t read most of the posts in the thread.
Just obnoxious really, basically all of us who voted for Serral and posted in this thread consider Serral’s peak higher and voted there, it’s what the posts say by and large, go read them.
If people want to continue to actually ignore that argument and make arrogant, stupid posts then by all means go ahead, while being insulting that anyone who disagrees is a fanboy.
I’ve encountered the worst of Serral fanboys elsewhere, in this thread almost all the obnoxious stuff is coming from Classic voters
It’s a difference between ‘I disagree that weighting cumulative achievements over peak form is the best rationale’ vs ‘people who don’t agree with me don’t understand the game’
On May 19 2019 07:06 MarianoSC2 wrote: Deluded Serral fanboy X again showing just how much he does not understand the game? No surprise here really. Although considering Serrals career achievements even remotely close to Classic is really embarrassing, even for him...
Considering how blind you are to anything that happens west of Incheon, I did not expect you to be able to understand. Your attitude, however, is indeed laughably toxic.
On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote: Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't. The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly.
I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt.
Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice.
Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be.
Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him
Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results.
Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results.
You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional.
On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:
On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then.
You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that.
Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard.
On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out.
Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements.
Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia.
Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now).
gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20
total of 48.75
Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts
I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial.
On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:
On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote: You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral. The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are. Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll.
The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased?
If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results:
Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018
Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now.
The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it.
Now go ahead, argue with facts.
Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible.
First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie.
Not a lie - according to my criteria that's absolutely true. But I give you that if you value WCS victories very highly it's possible that Serral's achievements surpass half of Classic's achievements. By no even remotely reasonable criteria Serral's results surpass Classic's though so the votes for him are entirely due to bias.
No real discussion can ever exist if our point of views are so radically different; what you say can only be true if you ignore WCS or consider them irrelevant. These are not reasonable criteria to me, it's due to extreme korean elitism.
I understand that your criteria is emphasizing major wins and ignoring ro8 but I personally disagree with this criteria. I think I agree more with The Red Viper's criteria, which values every result. Of course a win is more important than a final but I think that it is not so much more important that one should prioritize looking at wins when comparing player's achievements. That is why I think it is reasonable to say a 2nd place is worth half of a win and ro4 is worth half of a 2nd place. I think that acknowledges that a win is much more significant than the other results but it helps players like soO who didn't win very many tournaments, but made plenty of finals. In fairness, The Red Viper's criteria is very flawed because assigning points to different results is super subjective but it still looks reasonable to me, especially since most other ways to quantify results (that most would agree are reasonable) would probably give Classic a lead that is proportionately as large or even larger.
In fairness, give Serral 2 more years and I think he would surpass Classic in achievements. He might even be in the running for one of the greatest of all time. But imo, he is not at that point just yet.
I’m not sure results are linear though, they’re logarithmic in a way, and it depends on the field too.
Is winning a tournament equivalent to 2 runner’s ups in a greatness sense? Is winning something equivalent to 4 semi finals?
The further down you go, the less it seems you can’t just halve points. Is being in the Ro32 32 times and going no further greater than someone who wins a tournament?
Yeah that's a fair point. One could give zero value to ro32 and it wouldn't be crazy. If someone got 32 ro32 and another person won a gsl and then disappeared, I do agree that the latter is greater.
That said, I think most people do think ro16 and beyond does have value that can be compared to winning a tournament. I think players like herO and Parting deserve credit for making so many ro16. A player like soO is considered one of the greatest even though he got mainly 2nd place and most people give Dark and Stats credit for making so many semifinals and finals. So while I think the halving points idea is not perfect, I still think it's reasonable for the most part. If a 2nd place was far worse than a first place and so on, then soO would not even be top 30 of the greatest players.
New polls! Liquid HerO vs soO: Facing your fears Liquid HerO: 2 Dreamhack, 1 WCS NA, 1 IEM, 1 NASL, 1 Dreamhack final soO: 1 IEM Katowice, 1 Kespa Cup, 6 GSL finals, 1 Blizzcon final, 1 IEM final, 1 Dreamhack final
I came to SC2 quite late in his life, and the first ever live offline tournament I watched was IEM Cologne. Looking back a part of me is quite disappointed that I didn’t have the knowledge to fully appreciate what turn out to be a timeless classic; Patience and jjakji teaming up to take down what was left of Dear reputation, Polt running circle like a madman around Rain and Classic to beat two of the best in the world at what was then considered an impossible match up, but most of all Liquid HerO overcoming a gauntlet of the world best to conquer the last IEM trophy of the season. His path to victory included a dismantlement of INnoVation and an answer to Polt magic, but the highlight of it was his mesmerizing comeback in game 5 of the semi-final after going down bellow 60 supply against Jaedong he pulled everything, even his probes, and manage to snatch it under the nose of the Tyran.
After such a clutch win with thousand of euro on the line, one would expect to see someone pop off, jump of his chair or wink at the camera, but what we got was a man head in his hand, who for lack of better word: seemed so f*cking done with this shit.
HerO was a peculiar but inspirational character in the Starcraft 2 world, nerves problems have plagued many a player, but perhaps no one showed it more than HerO. The Liquid player regularly looked like he was about to explode on stage, but as soon as it switches to the game screen nothing of that showed. Time and again HerO was one of the much clutch players of all time, someone who could juggle an immortal for days way before Blizz decided they had to do it for us because it was too hard, execute a cheese with perfection in high pressure situation, and pull of great defence with his life on the line. The level of nerves HerO felt when he was on stage would have broken a lot of players, but HerO refusal to gave in when he probably wanted to be anywhere else but in front of all theses cameras made him one of the most successful SC2 player. While he never manage to win that all to sweet Korean tournament, he was a force to be reckon with in foreign tournament being the only player to win 2 Dreamhack Winter and on top of his big trophy collection being a solid team player on TL along side his friend and second half of the worst rivalry of all time TaeJa.
Many, many, many words have been written about soO story, lots more insightful then these one, yet as all the others I can’t but remiss on his harsh but ultimately fulfilling journey. When he was first victorious at the MLG vs Proleague invitational beating TY-Flash-Soulkey and Oz, the world knew that the young man who would go on to eliminate Mvp from code A a few weeks later was someone to keep an eye on in the coming years. A quick entry into code S in HOTS and a GSL final run in late 2013 confirmed that we were right to have high hope for soO, but he wasn’t a fan favourite or anything, mostly brushed aside as another top faceless Korean that couldn’t stop the future Bonjwa that was Dear, his play while very good wasn’t particularly peculiar or exciting. As the coming months started to pass tho two things became extremely clear, soO was a winner unlike anyone we ever saw in the game able to pull out a win in any situation by what seemed like pure resolve, and secondly soO was completely unable to win a final.
In his 4 GSL final run, his complete collapse against Solar in Stockolm days before his semi-final saw him fly all the way back to Korea and fight with the energy of desperation 3 maps down against Zest to win by the skin of his teeth, but as everything was said and done we could all remember Tastless words “SoO has lost Again”.
soO 4th GSL lost in row seemed more then enough to broke anyone spirit, and many thought he would never be the same, both in his winning and losing side. His Kespa Cup victory and IEM final defeat a year later seemed like both a small reward and a small pain compared to what had come before, as it seemed like he would remain a very good but not amazing zerg player. As 2017 rolled around soO showed us that he himself had never given up and he mounted once again a back to back GSL final run including comeback against both TYand Rogue, but as each final came less and less people were ready to give him a chance, soO was trapped in a cycle of eternal defeat.
But soO pull himself together and went on one last desperate and enraged attempt at Blizzcon, he would finally overcome GuMiho mech play in a razor edge quarter and was put once again at harm length of victory. It would have been the fairy tale, after all he had go through what better ending than soO finally winning on the biggest stage of them all, but there was no fairy tale yet for soO as he fell one more step into despair. With his Blizzcon defeat everyone accepted soO faith, his first GSL of 2018, where he seemed to be all to happy to let Stats steal the semi-final series if it mean avoiding another final, was followed by a disappointing year the world came to the conclusion that soO was finally done, it took an incredible time but the silver surfer was broken in the end.
No one was thinking about soO at the start of IEM Katowice, and him limping out of the group stage with a negative game score predicted another early exit. It was forgetting who soO was, as he overcame the world champion in his best match up, we were suddenly remember of that was, someone whom will power alone could carry him to victory against the worst of odds and hope started to return. Nevertheless, when Stats smacked him on Cyber Forest giving himself the 2-0 lead, we cursed soO for making us lived through this one more time, but something snap. This time wouldn’t be the same, when he was down and out, he was finally able to pull out his winning magic in the final, and it’s fair to say that in all the years of Starcraft no victory was ever as sweet as this one.
HerO and soO stories both go to show that it takes a lot more then simple clicks and button press to make a great Starcraft player, and while their career took way different path they both manage to overcome their demons on the way to greatness.
herO vs Dark:The tree that hide the forest herO: 3 IEM, 1 SSL, 1 Kespa cup, 1 Super Tournament, 1 IEM final, most ever maps, aces and wins in Proleague Dark: 1 SSL, 1 Blizzcon final, 2 SSL final, 3 GSL semi-final, 18 premier tournaments round of 4
Now I told you a moment ago that my first ever live SC2 tournament was IEM Cologne, so can you guess what my second live tournament was? Well actually it was the group stage of WCS NA but we don’t talk about this kind of thing here, but my 3rd tournament! It was none other than the infamous IEM Katowice 2014, contrary to his little brother in Cologne this one was experience best at a time I was barely understanding what was going on but was enthrall by a huge crowd of rabid fans. When I saw NaNiwa pack his thing up after game one I could enjoy plenty that raging man and all the drama without the knowledge that I was watching one of the West best walk away under the boo of the crowd, when Revival flew 30 muta into a pack of mine I could marvel at the unpredictability and unforgiveness of this game, I could still buy that giving all the 100k prize pool to the winner was a good idea, but even me, who had yet to play a single SC2 game, couldn’t watch stalkers dancing in the main of what was once a smiling, cartwheeling, man and not realize I had just watch one of the most vicious beat down to ever took place in this game.
There is much to bet that if herOdidn’t fall for sOs tricks his whole career would be remember a lot differently, it’s strange that one of the most successful players ever is mostly thought on as the victim of the type of defeat he handed to so many across the years.
herOcame to the forefront of the scene with a dominance in the IEM circuit in 2013-14, his impressive pvt as well as the many battles and eventual dismantlement of the infamous Snute swarmhost style using an agressive double warp prison response build his reputation as one of the most dangerous protoss around as he reach 4 IEM finals in a row, winning 3. He was foiled for a while in Korea losing in the final of a KC and the semi of GSL but would then win back to back trophy with another KC and an SSL late 2015. During all that time he was the ace of CJ in Proleague, it’s a job that can be a nightmare task (just ask Solar and Creator) but being the face and soul of CJ Entus was a role herO cherish as he was all to happy to be the one that made, almost by his lonesome, his team an actual contender for the playoff, playing day in day out from the first to the last day of ProLeague, being both the most use and the player with the most win in the league history.
As Lotv came around it seemed like the game was perfect for him, he won the first GSL Preseason and look poised to continue on his success but while the last few years have been pretty good including 3 top 4 at ST with a trophy and a couple of good GSL results he has yet to get that big GSL or international trophy that escaped him all these years ago in Poland.
Like herO, Dark was always one to thrive in front of the crowd, he famously announces to the world that he would go on to win 10 premier championships back in 2016. The claim seemed outrageous at first for someone who had just arrived at the top of the scene but as we were starting to realise Dark isn’t afraid to talk big and his word have frequently bite him in the backside. In a world of polite and humble Starcraft players Dark stand out has one who would be all to happy to vote for himself in this tournament.
Nevertheless, his 10 tournaments claim really wasn’t one of his grandiloquent declaration, in the last 4 years Dark as reach 18 top 4 in premier tournaments, he’s by far the most consistent LOTV playe if not all of Starcraft and a constant hurdle in everyone path. Dark was perfectly right on his potential when he said he would become the most decorated player in history, like he was tight every time he felt confident trash talking an opponent.
We have seen Dark destroy the best in the world since 2015 (some of the most memorable: zvz master Life, best tvz in the world 2015 Dream,great foreign hope Neeb- Runner up of IEM Katowice Classic and we have watch him beat every foreigner for 5 years straight, but so many time the coin fall on the wrong side for Dark. He has lost 10 final or semi-final by a single map, and been mostly used to give the champion an incredible series at the end of his road. No one could give ByuN, Stats or Maru such a hard run for there money and even if he got the short end of the stick almost every time, Dark role as guard captain of the trophy room, while not the one he wanted, is one he accomplished with every bit much of skills as those who inevitably broke in the vault.
On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote: Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't. The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly.
I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt.
Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice.
Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be.
Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him
Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results.
Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results.
You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional.
On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:
On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: [quote]
You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that.
Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard.
On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out.
Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements.
Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia.
Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now).
gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20
total of 48.75
Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts
I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial.
On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:
On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote: You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral. The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are. Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll.
The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased?
If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results:
Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018
Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now.
The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it.
Now go ahead, argue with facts.
Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible.
First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie.
Not a lie - according to my criteria that's absolutely true. But I give you that if you value WCS victories very highly it's possible that Serral's achievements surpass half of Classic's achievements. By no even remotely reasonable criteria Serral's results surpass Classic's though so the votes for him are entirely due to bias.
No real discussion can ever exist if our point of views are so radically different; what you say can only be true if you ignore WCS or consider them irrelevant. These are not reasonable criteria to me, it's due to extreme korean elitism.
I understand that your criteria is emphasizing major wins and ignoring ro8 but I personally disagree with this criteria. I think I agree more with The Red Viper's criteria, which values every result. Of course a win is more important than a final but I think that it is not so much more important that one should prioritize looking at wins when comparing player's achievements. That is why I think it is reasonable to say a 2nd place is worth half of a win and ro4 is worth half of a 2nd place. I think that acknowledges that a win is much more significant than the other results but it helps players like soO who didn't win very many tournaments, but made plenty of finals. In fairness, The Red Viper's criteria is very flawed because assigning points to different results is super subjective but it still looks reasonable to me, especially since most other ways to quantify results (that most would agree are reasonable) would probably give Classic a lead that is proportionately as large or even larger.
In fairness, give Serral 2 more years and I think he would surpass Classic in achievements. He might even be in the running for one of the greatest of all time. But imo, he is not at that point just yet.
I’m not sure results are linear though, they’re logarithmic in a way, and it depends on the field too.
Is winning a tournament equivalent to 2 runner’s ups in a greatness sense? Is winning something equivalent to 4 semi finals?
The further down you go, the less it seems you can’t just halve points. Is being in the Ro32 32 times and going no further greater than someone who wins a tournament?
Yeah that's a fair point. One could give zero value to ro32 and it wouldn't be crazy. If someone got 32 ro32 and another person won a gsl and then disappeared, I do agree that the latter is greater.
That said, I think most people do think ro16 and beyond does have value that can be compared to winning a tournament. I think players like herO and Parting deserve credit for making so many ro16. A player like soO is considered one of the greatest even though he got mainly 2nd place and most people give Dark and Stats credit for making so many semifinals and finals. So while I think the halving points idea is not perfect, I still think it's reasonable for the most part. If a 2nd place was far worse than a first place and so on, then soO would not even be top 30 of the greatest players.
I think in the past like 2013-2015 making ro32 actually did have some value but these yeah not too much, it still wasn’t worth much but it was way more competitive back then to make it into GSL
I want to vote for Dark. I really like Dark. I even think that somehow, even though the results don't reflect it, Dark has had the higher peak skill of the two. I want Dark to be the "greater" player compared to herO, but I can't justify it. I can't find any possible way to justify it.
Dark has generally been a better player than herO over the past ~4 years. He's just really bad at actually winning tournaments, which is admittedly a problem when it comes to a greatness contest.
I voted soO and herO. I thought it'd be closer between Dark and herO, but herO actually won way more tournaments and while he doesn't have as many semifinals or finals as Dark, I think his wins compensate enough for that.
HerO had a damn solid run in 2011-2013, but soO's run of 2nd places just blows him out of the water. His consistent 2nd places were actually insanely impressive.
And herO beats Dark purely through the strength of better results.
On May 19 2019 17:49 Anc13nt wrote: I voted soO and herO. I thought it'd be closer between Dark and herO, but herO actually won way more tournaments and while he doesn't have as many semifinals or finals as Dark, I think his wins compensate enough for that.
Yeah herO's one of those players who feels like a great player, but doesn't feel anywhere near as good as his results would actually suggest. It's actually crazy how much he's done over the years.
On May 19 2019 17:49 Anc13nt wrote: I voted soO and herO. I thought it'd be closer between Dark and herO, but herO actually won way more tournaments and while he doesn't have as many semifinals or finals as Dark, I think his wins compensate enough for that.
Also his peak was at the competitive peak of SC2 and he was a beast in PL where Dark was only average. herO takes this quite easily imo, he's in my top 10 list
On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote: Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't. The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly.
I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt.
Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice.
Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be.
Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him
Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results.
Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results.
You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional.
On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard.
On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out.
Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements.
Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia.
Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now).
gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20
total of 48.75
Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts
I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial.
On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased?
If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results:
Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018
Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now.
The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it.
Now go ahead, argue with facts.
Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible.
First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie.
Not a lie - according to my criteria that's absolutely true. But I give you that if you value WCS victories very highly it's possible that Serral's achievements surpass half of Classic's achievements. By no even remotely reasonable criteria Serral's results surpass Classic's though so the votes for him are entirely due to bias.
No real discussion can ever exist if our point of views are so radically different; what you say can only be true if you ignore WCS or consider them irrelevant. These are not reasonable criteria to me, it's due to extreme korean elitism.
I understand that your criteria is emphasizing major wins and ignoring ro8 but I personally disagree with this criteria. I think I agree more with The Red Viper's criteria, which values every result. Of course a win is more important than a final but I think that it is not so much more important that one should prioritize looking at wins when comparing player's achievements. That is why I think it is reasonable to say a 2nd place is worth half of a win and ro4 is worth half of a 2nd place. I think that acknowledges that a win is much more significant than the other results but it helps players like soO who didn't win very many tournaments, but made plenty of finals. In fairness, The Red Viper's criteria is very flawed because assigning points to different results is super subjective but it still looks reasonable to me, especially since most other ways to quantify results (that most would agree are reasonable) would probably give Classic a lead that is proportionately as large or even larger.
In fairness, give Serral 2 more years and I think he would surpass Classic in achievements. He might even be in the running for one of the greatest of all time. But imo, he is not at that point just yet.
I’m not sure results are linear though, they’re logarithmic in a way, and it depends on the field too.
Is winning a tournament equivalent to 2 runner’s ups in a greatness sense? Is winning something equivalent to 4 semi finals?
The further down you go, the less it seems you can’t just halve points. Is being in the Ro32 32 times and going no further greater than someone who wins a tournament?
Yeah that's a fair point. One could give zero value to ro32 and it wouldn't be crazy. If someone got 32 ro32 and another person won a gsl and then disappeared, I do agree that the latter is greater.
That said, I think most people do think ro16 and beyond does have value that can be compared to winning a tournament. I think players like herO and Parting deserve credit for making so many ro16. A player like soO is considered one of the greatest even though he got mainly 2nd place and most people give Dark and Stats credit for making so many semifinals and finals. So while I think the halving points idea is not perfect, I still think it's reasonable for the most part. If a 2nd place was far worse than a first place and so on, then soO would not even be top 30 of the greatest players.
I think in the past like 2013-2015 making ro32 actually did have some value but these yeah not too much, it still wasn’t worth much but it was way more competitive back then to make it into GSL
Yeah the way GSL has gone is a bit odd, I suppose it makes some sense. Generally activities past peak popularity see a drop in both peak play and general quality of fields, although maybe level out a bit in terms of competitive levels, and some newcomers might break into a previously closed shop.
GSL the Ro32/16 at a stretch have dropped a bit, but actually winning/going deep are just as hard as that core of championship contending players has pretty much remained unchanged.
EPT
Classic: 46 votes
Serral: 40 votes
INnoVation: 80 votes
