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On May 18 2019 21:11 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 21:00 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 20:53 DBooN wrote:
If you weight entirely foreign events the same as GSL serral is only slightly behind classic, therefore I voted serral. Refrain from these streched out misinterpretations of what I write, please. If I were Ej I would ask myself if being warned and banned so often is just a mere coincidence. If I were you, I'd first admit to purposefuly taking some imaginary moral high ground, just because your favorite player isn't the favorite of others, before I start backseat moderating people who mock that attitude. Or find a reasonable metric by which Serral is more accomplished than Classic 
So it's not arrogance to predict Serral would not be able to surpass Classic in two or three years? Assuming Sc2 goes on for the next three years(and I hope so), a complete noname could easily become the GOAT by winning most of the tournaments in this time span.
And I did not say Serral is more accomplished than Classic.
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On May 18 2019 20:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 19:58 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 18 2019 19:08 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote:
Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly. I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt. Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice. Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be. Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results. Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results. You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional. On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 17 2019 21:10 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 19:00 Harris1st wrote:It's okay guys. Both of them will lose to Inno next round If Serral fanboys vote him over Classic they will vote for him against Inno too. At this point the votes have just turned into a popularity contest. What fanboys? I think most of the people who at least posted here, not necessarily those that all voted in Serral vs Classic had pretty decent rationales for how they voted that came down to how they weighted certain things. Via my own weighting that I’ve laid out in the thread Inno wins this one easily, his peak level is comparable if not even higher and he’s also won more, over a longer period. As well as recently beating Serral in a tournament final. I don’t think it’s fair to put it down to blind fanboyism at all.l, as I said myself it was a 51-49 kind of decision for me. He’s won the biggest tournament in the game, and apparently (was posted here and was news to me) has the best winning match streak vs Koreans in the game’s history. There’s little more he can do, outside of go go GSL in future and be called a failure if he doesn’t win the first one he enters by the other side of the fanboy coin. I’d personally love to see another contender over in the best SC2 tournament there is, but I don’t think it’s a prerequisite for him to win this matchup. If being consistently good in the GSL is the weighting then Serral immediately loses any head to head vs guys who’ve been playing in Korean Starleagues for 5+ years immediately, by default. He’ll lose to Dark for example, despite knocking him out of 3 tournaments in the 2018/19 span. I’ll take Serral fanboyism because at least it’s fingers-in-the-ears and he won Blizzcon end of discussion rationales. Korean elitists the yardsticks continually shift between level of play, or cumulative achievement, or prestige whenever it suits an argument. So he needs to play GSL because it’s the highest level of play, but when my ultimate decision over Classic is that I think Serral’s peak level of play is higher, then it’s something else. SuperTournament > GSL vs the World, for some reason, despite the latter having a bigger purse and also the added motivation of Korean pride in stopping the foreigners winning, which is absolutely a thing Korean progamers mention themselves. Which could be a tournament almost specifically designed to give us more Serral vs the best of GSL games to o off and one whose existence I like, despite some flaws IMO in how the spots are filled. The_Red Viper has laid it down pretty well. Classic has objectively better achievements in his career and I haven't heard a "decent rationale" that makes it seem reasonable to vote for Serral. WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then. You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that. Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard. On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out. Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements. Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia. Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now). gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For serral we get:
wcs lvl: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 0.625 = 1.875 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 2.5 = 5 1st: 4 -> 4 x 5 = 20 total of 28.125 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 1 -> 0.9375 ro4: 0 -> 0 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 7.5 total of 8.4375 gsl lvl: ro8: 2 -> 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ro4: 1 -> 2.5 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 10 total of 15 pts Serral gets a grand total of 51.5625 pts.
gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For classic we get: wcs lvl: ro8: 0 -> 0 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 0 -> 0 total of 1.25 pts 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 5 -> 5 x 0.9375 = 4.6875 ro4: 2 -> 2 x 1.875 = 3.75 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 3 -> 3 x 7.5 = 22.5 total of 30.9375 gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20 total of 48.75 Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. Now go ahead, argue with facts. Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible. First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie. The most favourable metric for Serral definitely is not to set WCS as being worth half a Code S, it is counting titles without weighting them on one achievement list(look, Serral is top 10 already this way). With the criteria The Red Viper has been using, Serral is three Code S tier Premier away from Classic, if you use mine he is within one; I would still say it's pretty close. The "trivia facts" I pointed out actually seem of some relevance to me in a GOAT challenge and that's why I voted for Serral(his peak was indeed higher, it's very unlikely anyone could replicate his streak and there were no doubts he was the best player in the world after BlizzCon); as I previously said, it is totally understandable to vote for Classic.
Yeah sorry for the needless aggressiveness.
Oh so thats the most favourable metric for Serral, the same metric based on foreigners winning lots of tournaments where koreans aren't allowed to participate. Sounds to me exactly like going by the "most earnings" ranking, since foreigners have easy access to multiple tournaments with weaker lineups but big status and payout that makes foreigners greater than koreans right. Going by earnings (which is pretty much the same as your metric) would put Snute as more accomplished than Classic. I love me some Snute but thats unreasonable.
So The Red Viper does the most favourable metric within reason (I would still think its unreasonable but yeah just my opinion).
Your statement I took grievence with was this:
Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around.
Thats just not true, Classics results are way better if you take Majors in account and no matter ro8 AND if we still value wcs as half a GSL which is in itself ludicrous. (in my opinion)
Classics results are way better, there is no "if" or "but", the one argument you have is that Serrals peak was arguably higher and his streak was a unique and amazing but does it make up for being so far behind Classic in actual result? That is what we should be discussing, not if Classics results is way better because that is simply a fact.
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Northern Ireland24932 Posts
On May 18 2019 19:27 Acrofales wrote:
Hm. The Korean elitism is strong here. I find it a bit surprising how ppl think that any decent Korean could repeat his streak. Yet those same decent Koreans *do* regularly lose to top foreigners. TY failed to make it out of a group with Special. Reynor made it to the Ro16 last year. Neeb made it to the semis, and Scarlett has won tournaments over Korean opponents. These are all players who compete in WCS. If it were so easy to win WCS how do these guys (this weak opposition that Serral wrecks) make runs in tournaments with Koreans?
And it's not just WCS in his streak. It includes GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
Outside of bracket luck, those players should in theory be top 4 in every WCS tournaments, if there’s such a huge gap.
Which doesn’t happen, and brings into perspective quite how impressive Serral’s runs have been.
Tbh I think Scarlett and Special have been overrated vs other top foreigners for years now by some people just because they play in Korea, also Scarlett’s fan favourite status.
They’re both excellent players don’t get me wrong, don’t mean to put them down. Special hasn’t even won a WCS yet, despite showing some really high level play at times, which attests to the depth of WCS being pretty damn decent.
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On May 18 2019 21:18 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 21:11 Ej_ wrote:On May 18 2019 21:00 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 20:53 DBooN wrote:
If you weight entirely foreign events the same as GSL serral is only slightly behind classic, therefore I voted serral. Refrain from these streched out misinterpretations of what I write, please. If I were Ej I would ask myself if being warned and banned so often is just a mere coincidence. If I were you, I'd first admit to purposefuly taking some imaginary moral high ground, just because your favorite player isn't the favorite of others, before I start backseat moderating people who mock that attitude. Or find a reasonable metric by which Serral is more accomplished than Classic So it's not arrogance to predict Serral would not be able to surpass Classic in two or three years?
This could be a topic of discussion if anyone said that.
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Northern Ireland24932 Posts
On May 18 2019 21:34 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 20:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 19:58 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 18 2019 19:08 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote:
Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly. I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt. Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice. Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be. Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results. Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results. You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional. On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 17 2019 21:10 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
If Serral fanboys vote him over Classic they will vote for him against Inno too.
At this point the votes have just turned into a popularity contest. What fanboys? I think most of the people who at least posted here, not necessarily those that all voted in Serral vs Classic had pretty decent rationales for how they voted that came down to how they weighted certain things. Via my own weighting that I’ve laid out in the thread Inno wins this one easily, his peak level is comparable if not even higher and he’s also won more, over a longer period. As well as recently beating Serral in a tournament final. I don’t think it’s fair to put it down to blind fanboyism at all.l, as I said myself it was a 51-49 kind of decision for me. He’s won the biggest tournament in the game, and apparently (was posted here and was news to me) has the best winning match streak vs Koreans in the game’s history. There’s little more he can do, outside of go go GSL in future and be called a failure if he doesn’t win the first one he enters by the other side of the fanboy coin. I’d personally love to see another contender over in the best SC2 tournament there is, but I don’t think it’s a prerequisite for him to win this matchup. If being consistently good in the GSL is the weighting then Serral immediately loses any head to head vs guys who’ve been playing in Korean Starleagues for 5+ years immediately, by default. He’ll lose to Dark for example, despite knocking him out of 3 tournaments in the 2018/19 span. I’ll take Serral fanboyism because at least it’s fingers-in-the-ears and he won Blizzcon end of discussion rationales. Korean elitists the yardsticks continually shift between level of play, or cumulative achievement, or prestige whenever it suits an argument. So he needs to play GSL because it’s the highest level of play, but when my ultimate decision over Classic is that I think Serral’s peak level of play is higher, then it’s something else. SuperTournament > GSL vs the World, for some reason, despite the latter having a bigger purse and also the added motivation of Korean pride in stopping the foreigners winning, which is absolutely a thing Korean progamers mention themselves. Which could be a tournament almost specifically designed to give us more Serral vs the best of GSL games to o off and one whose existence I like, despite some flaws IMO in how the spots are filled. The_Red Viper has laid it down pretty well. Classic has objectively better achievements in his career and I haven't heard a "decent rationale" that makes it seem reasonable to vote for Serral. WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then. You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that. Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard. On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out. Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements. Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia. Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now). gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For serral we get:
wcs lvl: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 0.625 = 1.875 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 2.5 = 5 1st: 4 -> 4 x 5 = 20 total of 28.125 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 1 -> 0.9375 ro4: 0 -> 0 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 7.5 total of 8.4375 gsl lvl: ro8: 2 -> 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ro4: 1 -> 2.5 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 10 total of 15 pts Serral gets a grand total of 51.5625 pts.
gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For classic we get: wcs lvl: ro8: 0 -> 0 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 0 -> 0 total of 1.25 pts 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 5 -> 5 x 0.9375 = 4.6875 ro4: 2 -> 2 x 1.875 = 3.75 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 3 -> 3 x 7.5 = 22.5 total of 30.9375 gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20 total of 48.75 Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. Now go ahead, argue with facts. Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible. First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie. The most favourable metric for Serral definitely is not to set WCS as being worth half a Code S, it is counting titles without weighting them on one achievement list(look, Serral is top 10 already this way). With the criteria The Red Viper has been using, Serral is three Code S tier Premier away from Classic, if you use mine he is within one; I would still say it's pretty close. The "trivia facts" I pointed out actually seem of some relevance to me in a GOAT challenge and that's why I voted for Serral(his peak was indeed higher, it's very unlikely anyone could replicate his streak and there were no doubts he was the best player in the world after BlizzCon); as I previously said, it is totally understandable to vote for Classic. Yeah sorry for the needless aggressiveness. Oh so thats the most favourable metric for Serral, the same metric based on foreigners winning lots of tournaments where koreans aren't allowed to participate. Sounds to me exactly like going by the "most earnings" ranking, since foreigners have easy access to multiple tournaments with weaker lineups but big status and payout that makes foreigners greater than koreans right. Going by earnings (which is pretty much the same as your metric) would put Snute as more accomplished than Classic. I love me some Snute but thats unreasonable. So The Red Viper does the most favourable metric within reason (I would still think its unreasonable but yeah just my opinion). Your statement I took grievence with was this: Show nested quote +Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Thats just not true, Classics results are way better if you take Majors in account and no matter ro8 AND if we still value wcs as half a GSL which is in itself ludicrous. (in my opinion) Classics results are way better, there is no "if" or "but", the one argument you have is that Serrals peak was arguably higher and his streak was a unique and amazing but does it make up for being so far behind Classic in actual result? That is what we should be discussing, not if Classics results is way better because that is simply a fact.
I think it does and should be the discussion, as it seems to be what people are disagreeing on, my rough rationale:
If peak > peak player A wins
If peak = peak, next consideration
If accomplishments > accomplishments player A wins
If accomplishments = accomplishments, next consideration etc
Peak in my consideration isn’t just peak achievement but level of play, plus dominance/manner of victory as well as just purely winning.
Sure it’s not perfect by any means, but the player who arguably burned brighter wins out vs his opponent, and if they burned similarly then how long they did it for becomes the tiebreaker.
Which is how many tend to bracket greatness in other domains. Ronaldinho is considered a great of his era over day a Frank Lampard who was consistently really good and had a much bigger trophy cabinet when they retired, but Ronaldinho loses in most minds to Lionel Messi who ticked both boxes.
Serral in football/soccer land is a Kylian Mbappe to me, he’s broken through and shown greatness, doesn’t show signs of falling off anytime soon, but doesn’t have the trophy cabinets of some of his World Cup winning teammates yet. I’d still put him ahead of most of them.
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On May 18 2019 21:41 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 21:18 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 21:11 Ej_ wrote:On May 18 2019 21:00 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 20:53 DBooN wrote:
If you weight entirely foreign events the same as GSL serral is only slightly behind classic, therefore I voted serral. Refrain from these streched out misinterpretations of what I write, please. If I were Ej I would ask myself if being warned and banned so often is just a mere coincidence. If I were you, I'd first admit to purposefuly taking some imaginary moral high ground, just because your favorite player isn't the favorite of others, before I start backseat moderating people who mock that attitude. Or find a reasonable metric by which Serral is more accomplished than Classic So it's not arrogance to predict Serral would not be able to surpass Classic in two or three years? This could be a topic of discussion if anyone said that.
It's true, you actually did not say that.
Still, stating Serral may be able to match Classic achievement in two or three years by playing well...
Serral could do it in months.
And weighted achievements are definitely not the reason why I chose Serral, it should be clear enough at this point.
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When do the polls close? Let's bury this once and for all.
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On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore.
My point exactly, tons of players that are still active participated and back then basically everyone was playing in it.
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Northern Ireland24932 Posts
On May 19 2019 00:46 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore. My point exactly, tons of players that are still active participated and back then basically everyone was playing in it.
Why would you include a defunct team league that you had to be based in Korea and on certain teams to play in with no other means of entry, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it?
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On May 18 2019 20:46 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 20:29 BerserkSword wrote:On May 18 2019 19:27 Acrofales wrote:
Hm. The Korean elitism is strong here. I find it a bit surprising how ppl think that any decent Korean could repeat his streak. Yet those same decent Koreans *do* regularly lose to top foreigners. TY failed to make it out of a group with Special. Reynor made it to the Ro16 last year. Neeb made it to the semis, and Scarlett has won tournaments over Korean opponents. These are all players who compete in WCS. If it were so easy to win WCS how do these guys (this weak opposition that Serral wrecks) make runs in tournaments with Koreans?
And it's not just WCS in his streak. It includes GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
We are talking about Classic, not a "decent Korean" If you want to mention TY getting knocked out of a tournament in the RO32 for the first time in nine tournaments, then I can dig up all of Serral's failures before 2018 against far lesser opponents than special, ragnarok and sos. Every player hits a road bump in some tournament sometimes (and Serral had a lot more of those road bumps as he was relatively irrelevant before 2018 ). Neeb, Scarlett, Special, and Reynor are the top 5 best foreigners along with Serral. Classic's accomplishments simply blow Serral's out of the water. Even if you want to argue that 2018 Serral peaked higher than any year of Classic, there is absolutely no case to be made that Serral's peak was significantly better than Classics. Classic has more than twice the premier tournament wins that featured top koreans and has been trading blows with the best players in the world his entire career. All I'm saying is that Serral's streak is extraordinary. It wasn't a diss towards TY. It wasn't a sneer toward Classic either. It was me pointing out that Serral's streak was not something "anybody" could have done. Dark's streak vs foreigners was also beastly. Dark is a great player. A big difference of course, is that Serral did that while winning tournaments whereas Dark kept trashing foreigners and then losing most of the tournaments he was in.
I do think that Serral's winstreak was exceptional even considering circumstances and weighing the opposition and so on. However at the end of the day this is just a win-streak not an extra title (unless you count Unofficial World Champion) and even with an extra title Serral's results aren't as good as Classic's.
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Theyre competitive matches between the best players in the world still? Thats why those results should still be taken into consideration. It doesnt matter if its defunct as it was a premier competition at the time. We still count osl and ssls right?
Just to be clear im not saying it should be weighed super heavily but being a good proleague player on one of the premier teams surely adds some prestige to a career.
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On May 19 2019 00:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 00:46 Moonerz wrote:On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore. My point exactly, tons of players that are still active participated and back then basically everyone was playing in it. Why would you include a defunct team league that you had to be based in Korea and on certain teams to play in with no other means of entry, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it?
Why would you include wcs, a regionlocked tournament where most top players in the world practically cannot compete in, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it?
Oh yeah because we value a player's career and each accomplishment kinda matters, i forgot!
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On May 19 2019 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 00:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 19 2019 00:46 Moonerz wrote:On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore. My point exactly, tons of players that are still active participated and back then basically everyone was playing in it. Why would you include a defunct team league that you had to be based in Korea and on certain teams to play in with no other means of entry, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Why would you include wcs, a regionlocked tournament where most top players in the world practically cannot compete in, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Oh yeah because we value a player's career and each accomplishment kinda matters, i forgot!
No! We shouldn't count any tournament after Mvp's retirement because it would be unfair towards Mvp who didn't have the chance to compete in them anymore.
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 19 2019 00:10 Jealous wrote:
When do the polls close? Let's bury this once and for all.
At 8h00 pm EST
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Northern Ireland24932 Posts
On May 19 2019 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 00:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 19 2019 00:46 Moonerz wrote:On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore. My point exactly, tons of players that are still active participated and back then basically everyone was playing in it. Why would you include a defunct team league that you had to be based in Korea and on certain teams to play in with no other means of entry, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Why would you include wcs, a regionlocked tournament where most top players in the world practically cannot compete in, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Oh yeah because we value a player's career and each accomplishment kinda matters, i forgot!
I’m not really factoring it in at all outside of the slight bonus gives to Serral’s streak and it being part of the consistent dominance over a decent period that it fell into.
Serral’s all likely lost the vote, Classic goes through, no real outage there. Not an egregious result, felt it was a very tight one anyway.
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On May 19 2019 03:44 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 19 2019 00:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 19 2019 00:46 Moonerz wrote:On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore. My point exactly, tons of players that are still active participated and back then basically everyone was playing in it. Why would you include a defunct team league that you had to be based in Korea and on certain teams to play in with no other means of entry, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Why would you include wcs, a regionlocked tournament where most top players in the world practically cannot compete in, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Oh yeah because we value a player's career and each accomplishment kinda matters, i forgot! I’m not really factoring it in at all outside of the slight bonus gives to Serral’s streak and it being part of the consistent dominance over a decent period that it fell into. Serral’s all likely lost the vote, Classic goes through, no real outage there. Not an egregious result, felt it was a very tight one anyway.
Eight pages of discussion point towards the "tight one" theory
44:39 right now, very cool head-2-head (even though we are all being told on the last few pages, that everyone that does not vote in a specific way is ill informed).
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Northern Ireland24932 Posts
On May 19 2019 03:58 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 03:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 19 2019 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 19 2019 00:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 19 2019 00:46 Moonerz wrote:On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore. My point exactly, tons of players that are still active participated and back then basically everyone was playing in it. Why would you include a defunct team league that you had to be based in Korea and on certain teams to play in with no other means of entry, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Why would you include wcs, a regionlocked tournament where most top players in the world practically cannot compete in, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Oh yeah because we value a player's career and each accomplishment kinda matters, i forgot! I’m not really factoring it in at all outside of the slight bonus gives to Serral’s streak and it being part of the consistent dominance over a decent period that it fell into. Serral’s all likely lost the vote, Classic goes through, no real outage there. Not an egregious result, felt it was a very tight one anyway. Eight pages of discussion point towards the "tight one" theory 44:39 right now, very cool head-2-head (even though we are all being told on the last few pages, that everyone that does not vote in a specific way is ill informed).
I mean in fairness to myself I think I said it was a 51-49 matchup for me in one of my first posts on the topic :p
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On May 19 2019 03:58 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 03:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 19 2019 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 19 2019 00:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 19 2019 00:46 Moonerz wrote:On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore. My point exactly, tons of players that are still active participated and back then basically everyone was playing in it. Why would you include a defunct team league that you had to be based in Korea and on certain teams to play in with no other means of entry, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Why would you include wcs, a regionlocked tournament where most top players in the world practically cannot compete in, other than as a tiebreaker with players who both competed in it? Oh yeah because we value a player's career and each accomplishment kinda matters, i forgot! I’m not really factoring it in at all outside of the slight bonus gives to Serral’s streak and it being part of the consistent dominance over a decent period that it fell into. Serral’s all likely lost the vote, Classic goes through, no real outage there. Not an egregious result, felt it was a very tight one anyway. Eight pages of discussion point towards the "tight one" theory 44:39 right now, very cool head-2-head (even though we are all being told on the last few pages, that everyone that does not vote in a specific way is ill informed).
The public vote being close doesn't really mean anything one way or another. A large percentage of voters being ill-informed is just part of the joys of democracy.
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On May 18 2019 21:12 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 21:04 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2019 20:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 19:58 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 18 2019 19:08 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote:
Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly. I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt. Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice. Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be. Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results. Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results. You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional. On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
What fanboys? I think most of the people who at least posted here, not necessarily those that all voted in Serral vs Classic had pretty decent rationales for how they voted that came down to how they weighted certain things.
Via my own weighting that I’ve laid out in the thread Inno wins this one easily, his peak level is comparable if not even higher and he’s also won more, over a longer period. As well as recently beating Serral in a tournament final.
I don’t think it’s fair to put it down to blind fanboyism at all.l, as I said myself it was a 51-49 kind of decision for me.
He’s won the biggest tournament in the game, and apparently (was posted here and was news to me) has the best winning match streak vs Koreans in the game’s history.
There’s little more he can do, outside of go go GSL in future and be called a failure if he doesn’t win the first one he enters by the other side of the fanboy coin. I’d personally love to see another contender over in the best SC2 tournament there is, but I don’t think it’s a prerequisite for him to win this matchup.
If being consistently good in the GSL is the weighting then Serral immediately loses any head to head vs guys who’ve been playing in Korean Starleagues for 5+ years immediately, by default. He’ll lose to Dark for example, despite knocking him out of 3 tournaments in the 2018/19 span.
I’ll take Serral fanboyism because at least it’s fingers-in-the-ears and he won Blizzcon end of discussion rationales. Korean elitists the yardsticks continually shift between level of play, or cumulative achievement, or prestige whenever it suits an argument.
So he needs to play GSL because it’s the highest level of play, but when my ultimate decision over Classic is that I think Serral’s peak level of play is higher, then it’s something else.
SuperTournament > GSL vs the World, for some reason, despite the latter having a bigger purse and also the added motivation of Korean pride in stopping the foreigners winning, which is absolutely a thing Korean progamers mention themselves. Which could be a tournament almost specifically designed to give us more Serral vs the best of GSL games to o off and one whose existence I like, despite some flaws IMO in how the spots are filled.
The_Red Viper has laid it down pretty well. Classic has objectively better achievements in his career and I haven't heard a "decent rationale" that makes it seem reasonable to vote for Serral. WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then. You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that. Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard. On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out. Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements. Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia. Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now). gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For serral we get:
wcs lvl: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 0.625 = 1.875 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 2.5 = 5 1st: 4 -> 4 x 5 = 20 total of 28.125 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 1 -> 0.9375 ro4: 0 -> 0 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 7.5 total of 8.4375 gsl lvl: ro8: 2 -> 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ro4: 1 -> 2.5 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 10 total of 15 pts Serral gets a grand total of 51.5625 pts.
gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For classic we get: wcs lvl: ro8: 0 -> 0 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 0 -> 0 total of 1.25 pts 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 5 -> 5 x 0.9375 = 4.6875 ro4: 2 -> 2 x 1.875 = 3.75 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 3 -> 3 x 7.5 = 22.5 total of 30.9375 gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20 total of 48.75 Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. Now go ahead, argue with facts. Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible. First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie. Not a lie - according to my criteria that's absolutely true. But I give you that if you value WCS victories very highly it's possible that Serral's achievements surpass half of Classic's achievements. By no even remotely reasonable criteria Serral's results surpass Classic's though so the votes for him are entirely due to bias. No real discussion can ever exist if our point of views are so radically different; what you say can only be true if you ignore WCS or consider them irrelevant. These are not reasonable criteria to me, it's due to extreme korean elitism.
I understand that your criteria is emphasizing major wins and ignoring ro8 but I personally disagree with this criteria. I think I agree more with The Red Viper's criteria, which values every result. Of course a win is more important than a final but I think that it is not so much more important that one should prioritize looking at wins when comparing player's achievements. That is why I think it is reasonable to say a 2nd place is worth half of a win and ro4 is worth half of a 2nd place. I think that acknowledges that a win is much more significant than the other results but it helps players like soO who didn't win very many tournaments, but made plenty of finals. In fairness, The Red Viper's criteria is very flawed because assigning points to different results is super subjective but it still looks reasonable to me, especially since most other ways to quantify results (that most would agree are reasonable) would probably give Classic a lead that is proportionately as large or even larger.
In fairness, give Serral 2 more years and I think he would surpass Classic in achievements. He might even be in the running for one of the greatest of all time. But imo, he is not at that point just yet.
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As an aside, it's obvious that people who heavily doubted Serral the whole past year will greatly diminish what he accomplished, but for maybe a not-so-obvious reason.
If you think that Serral was never the best player in the world, or maybe he only proved it at Blizzcon and additionally showed his ZvT was shown to be super weak at HSC, then you have a completely different perspective on his year than someone who thinks Serral was the best player of the year for nearly half of it, and proved it three different times.
It's two completely different perspectives on the same streak.
For instance, as someone who thought Serral was definitely the best at least by the time GSL vs the World came, those two victories and HSC were international defense titles at three different times for best player in the world, done over a long period of time and further proven by his complete unquestioned dominance over the foreign scene.
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EPT
