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On May 18 2019 16:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 09:43 Moonerz wrote:
Just curious what you mean by plenty of players never had the chance to try Proleague? Everyone in GSL competed in Proleague.... If you mean the new foreigners then I guess that's true, but I don't think that's a reason to discount it (had EGTL too so it's not like no foreigners got to play). Proleague was a very important competition and it's a shame no one seems to value it anymore. Discounting it makes zero sense. It's like discounting every tournament after 2013 because Mvp didn't compete in them anymore.
careful you may summon Stuchiu
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Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly.
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On May 18 2019 11:27 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 11:13 BisuDagger wrote:
I would like to hear more arguments as to how the quality of competition during 2018 was as good as the quality of players during Classic's peak. He was winning during an era where some of the other greats were thriving too. And if that's not something you believe can be discussed then what about the game being played. HoTS versus LoTV. Which version do we rate as the more skill demanding version. I'm not sure when Classic's peak is or even if there is really one that stands out. While his form has had a few ups and downs, he's been pretty regularly one of the best (though perhaps not the standalone best) since 2014. If he wins next GSL this will have been his peak.
There was that time, right before Classic lost in Katowice finals to Rogue, when he sported above 70% WR in every matchupz playing exclusively Koreans. Mamy people put him as the clear favorite to win the tournament. The rest is obviously history, but he was a monstrous player back then. He's looking similarly strong right now though.
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What are we even discussing here, Serral has overall worse results than Classic, winning two tournaments with real korean opposition doesn't beat Classics results by a mile. The 4 wcs circuit result doesn't count for much, not saying they dont count for anything and I was a bit deluded earlier but compared to Classics results......
While his peak was awesome and he played amazingly well judging said peak is not easy, dominating the foreigner scene is impressive in itself but can his half a year win streak count as said domination when he during that period defeated 9 top korean players?
Lets put it like this, Dark is known for his crazy streak vs foreigners, if he would only play 9 top koreans and the rest foreigners when he is in form does anybody doubt he could replicate the same results? Not saying it is easy or that it would happen just saying Serral is in a situation where he can do what he did because he rarely plays the best plasyers in the world. For koreans getting the insane win streak Serral had is much much harder because they play against better players. There is surely players in korea that has had winstreak of 9+ offline matches against the top korean opposition, if they stopped playing koreans and just played foreigners for the coming 4 monhts they could do this too.
Polt while not streamlining his results like Serral has 4 WCS championship a super tournament and multiple DH, Red bull and so on. Result wise he is comparable to Polt, the difference is Serrals perceived peak how much more does that count than results.
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On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote:
Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly.
I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt.
Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice.
Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018...
In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be.
Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him
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Hm. The Korean elitism is strong here. I find it a bit surprising how ppl think that any decent Korean could repeat his streak. Yet those same decent Koreans *do* regularly lose to top foreigners. TY failed to make it out of a group with Special. Reynor made it to the Ro16 last year. Neeb made it to the semis, and Scarlett has won tournaments over Korean opponents. These are all players who compete in WCS. If it were so easy to win WCS how do these guys (this weak opposition that Serral wrecks) make runs in tournaments with Koreans?
And it's not just WCS in his streak. It includes GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
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On May 18 2019 19:27 Acrofales wrote:
Hm. The Korean elitism is strong here. I find it a bit surprising how ppl think that any decent Korean could repeat his streak. Yet those same decent Koreans *do* regularly lose to top foreigners. TY failed to make it out of a group with Special. Reynor made it to the Ro16 last year. Neeb made it to the semis, and Scarlett has won tournaments over Korean opponents. These are all players who compete in WCS. If it were so easy to win WCS how do these guys (this weak opposition that Serral wrecks) make runs in tournaments with Koreans?
And it's not just WCS in his streak. It includes GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
Also Homestory Cup XVIII and Katowice 2019(groupstages).
You should not really be surprised, people here on average evidently preferred times when foreigners were irrelevant and Sc2 was just high-resolution Brood Wars in terms of global competition.
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On May 18 2019 19:08 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote:
Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly. I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt. Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice. Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be. Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him
Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results.
Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results.
You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional.
On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 17 2019 21:10 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 19:00 Harris1st wrote:It's okay guys. Both of them will lose to Inno next round  If Serral fanboys vote him over Classic they will vote for him against Inno too. At this point the votes have just turned into a popularity contest. What fanboys? I think most of the people who at least posted here, not necessarily those that all voted in Serral vs Classic had pretty decent rationales for how they voted that came down to how they weighted certain things. Via my own weighting that I’ve laid out in the thread Inno wins this one easily, his peak level is comparable if not even higher and he’s also won more, over a longer period. As well as recently beating Serral in a tournament final. I don’t think it’s fair to put it down to blind fanboyism at all.l, as I said myself it was a 51-49 kind of decision for me. He’s won the biggest tournament in the game, and apparently (was posted here and was news to me) has the best winning match streak vs Koreans in the game’s history. There’s little more he can do, outside of go go GSL in future and be called a failure if he doesn’t win the first one he enters by the other side of the fanboy coin. I’d personally love to see another contender over in the best SC2 tournament there is, but I don’t think it’s a prerequisite for him to win this matchup. If being consistently good in the GSL is the weighting then Serral immediately loses any head to head vs guys who’ve been playing in Korean Starleagues for 5+ years immediately, by default. He’ll lose to Dark for example, despite knocking him out of 3 tournaments in the 2018/19 span. I’ll take Serral fanboyism because at least it’s fingers-in-the-ears and he won Blizzcon end of discussion rationales. Korean elitists the yardsticks continually shift between level of play, or cumulative achievement, or prestige whenever it suits an argument. So he needs to play GSL because it’s the highest level of play, but when my ultimate decision over Classic is that I think Serral’s peak level of play is higher, then it’s something else. SuperTournament > GSL vs the World, for some reason, despite the latter having a bigger purse and also the added motivation of Korean pride in stopping the foreigners winning, which is absolutely a thing Korean progamers mention themselves. Which could be a tournament almost specifically designed to give us more Serral vs the best of GSL games to o off and one whose existence I like, despite some flaws IMO in how the spots are filled. The_Red Viper has laid it down pretty well. Classic has objectively better achievements in his career and I haven't heard a "decent rationale" that makes it seem reasonable to vote for Serral. WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then. You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that. Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard. On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out. Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements. Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia. Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now). gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For serral we get:
wcs lvl: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 0.625 = 1.875 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 2.5 = 5 1st: 4 -> 4 x 5 = 20 total of 28.125 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 1 -> 0.9375 ro4: 0 -> 0 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 7.5 total of 8.4375 gsl lvl: ro8: 2 -> 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ro4: 1 -> 2.5 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 10 total of 15 pts Serral gets a grand total of 51.5625 pts.
gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For classic we get: wcs lvl: ro8: 0 -> 0 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 0 -> 0 total of 1.25 pts 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 5 -> 5 x 0.9375 = 4.6875 ro4: 2 -> 2 x 1.875 = 3.75 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 3 -> 3 x 7.5 = 22.5 total of 30.9375 gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20 total of 48.75 Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial.
On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it.
Now go ahead, argue with facts.
Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible.
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On May 18 2019 19:27 Acrofales wrote:
Hm. The Korean elitism is strong here. I find it a bit surprising how ppl think that any decent Korean could repeat his streak. Yet those same decent Koreans *do* regularly lose to top foreigners. TY failed to make it out of a group with Special. Reynor made it to the Ro16 last year. Neeb made it to the semis, and Scarlett has won tournaments over Korean opponents. These are all players who compete in WCS. If it were so easy to win WCS how do these guys (this weak opposition that Serral wrecks) make runs in tournaments with Koreans?
And it's not just WCS in his streak. It includes GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
And then there's Dark who didn't lose to a foreigner in two years.
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On May 18 2019 19:27 Acrofales wrote:
Hm. The Korean elitism is strong here. I find it a bit surprising how ppl think that any decent Korean could repeat his streak. Yet those same decent Koreans *do* regularly lose to top foreigners. TY failed to make it out of a group with Special. Reynor made it to the Ro16 last year. Neeb made it to the semis, and Scarlett has won tournaments over Korean opponents. These are all players who compete in WCS. If it were so easy to win WCS how do these guys (this weak opposition that Serral wrecks) make runs in tournaments with Koreans?
And it's not just WCS in his streak. It includes GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
We are talking about Classic, not a "decent Korean"
If you want to mention TY getting knocked out of a tournament in the RO32 for the first time in nine tournaments, then I can dig up all of Serral's failures before 2018 against far lesser opponents than special, ragnarok and sos. Every player hits a road bump in some tournament sometimes (and Serral had a lot more of those road bumps as he was relatively irrelevant before 2018 ). Neeb, Scarlett, Special, and Reynor are the top 5 best foreigners along with Serral.
Classic's accomplishments simply blow Serral's out of the water. Even if you want to argue that 2018 Serral peaked higher than any year of Classic, there is absolutely no case to be made that Serral's peak was significantly better than Classics.
Classic has more than twice the premier tournament wins that featured top koreans and has been trading blows with the best players in the world his entire career.
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Result wise, Classic is miles ahead of Serral no matter what metrics you use, what discount factor you used for WCS e.t.c. it is not close.
Does not matter if Serral's achievements or streak in 2018 is not easy to replicate even for a top Korean. Of course, it is not easy and that is what makes Serral remarkable. Even then, Classic is more accomplished.
Only valid argument I can see putting Serral greater than Classic is that Serral has higher peak play, or that Serral had once been deemed best player in the world at some point (arguable, Rogue did not get that title). That's it.
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On May 18 2019 20:29 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 19:27 Acrofales wrote:
Hm. The Korean elitism is strong here. I find it a bit surprising how ppl think that any decent Korean could repeat his streak. Yet those same decent Koreans *do* regularly lose to top foreigners. TY failed to make it out of a group with Special. Reynor made it to the Ro16 last year. Neeb made it to the semis, and Scarlett has won tournaments over Korean opponents. These are all players who compete in WCS. If it were so easy to win WCS how do these guys (this weak opposition that Serral wrecks) make runs in tournaments with Koreans?
And it's not just WCS in his streak. It includes GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
We are talking about Classic, not a "decent Korean" If you want to mention TY getting knocked out of a tournament in the RO32 for the first time in nine tournaments, then I can dig up all of Serral's failures before 2018 against far lesser opponents than special, ragnarok and sos. Every player hits a road bump in some tournament sometimes (and Serral had a lot more of those road bumps as he was relatively irrelevant before 2018 ). Neeb, Scarlett, Special, and Reynor are the top 5 best foreigners along with Serral. Classic's accomplishments simply blow Serral's out of the water. Even if you want to argue that 2018 Serral peaked higher than any year of Classic, there is absolutely no case to be made that Serral's peak was significantly better than Classics. Classic has more than twice the premier tournament wins that featured top koreans and has been trading blows with the best players in the world his entire career.
All I'm saying is that Serral's streak is extraordinary. It wasn't a diss towards TY. It wasn't a sneer toward Classic either. It was me pointing out that Serral's streak was not something "anybody" could have done.
Dark's streak vs foreigners was also beastly. Dark is a great player. A big difference of course, is that Serral did that while winning tournaments whereas Dark kept trashing foreigners and then losing most of the tournaments he was in.
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On May 18 2019 19:58 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 19:08 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote:
Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly. I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt. Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice. Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be. Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results. Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results. You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional. Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 17 2019 21:10 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 19:00 Harris1st wrote:It's okay guys. Both of them will lose to Inno next round If Serral fanboys vote him over Classic they will vote for him against Inno too. At this point the votes have just turned into a popularity contest. What fanboys? I think most of the people who at least posted here, not necessarily those that all voted in Serral vs Classic had pretty decent rationales for how they voted that came down to how they weighted certain things. Via my own weighting that I’ve laid out in the thread Inno wins this one easily, his peak level is comparable if not even higher and he’s also won more, over a longer period. As well as recently beating Serral in a tournament final. I don’t think it’s fair to put it down to blind fanboyism at all.l, as I said myself it was a 51-49 kind of decision for me. He’s won the biggest tournament in the game, and apparently (was posted here and was news to me) has the best winning match streak vs Koreans in the game’s history. There’s little more he can do, outside of go go GSL in future and be called a failure if he doesn’t win the first one he enters by the other side of the fanboy coin. I’d personally love to see another contender over in the best SC2 tournament there is, but I don’t think it’s a prerequisite for him to win this matchup. If being consistently good in the GSL is the weighting then Serral immediately loses any head to head vs guys who’ve been playing in Korean Starleagues for 5+ years immediately, by default. He’ll lose to Dark for example, despite knocking him out of 3 tournaments in the 2018/19 span. I’ll take Serral fanboyism because at least it’s fingers-in-the-ears and he won Blizzcon end of discussion rationales. Korean elitists the yardsticks continually shift between level of play, or cumulative achievement, or prestige whenever it suits an argument. So he needs to play GSL because it’s the highest level of play, but when my ultimate decision over Classic is that I think Serral’s peak level of play is higher, then it’s something else. SuperTournament > GSL vs the World, for some reason, despite the latter having a bigger purse and also the added motivation of Korean pride in stopping the foreigners winning, which is absolutely a thing Korean progamers mention themselves. Which could be a tournament almost specifically designed to give us more Serral vs the best of GSL games to o off and one whose existence I like, despite some flaws IMO in how the spots are filled. The_Red Viper has laid it down pretty well. Classic has objectively better achievements in his career and I haven't heard a "decent rationale" that makes it seem reasonable to vote for Serral. WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then. You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that. Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard. On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out. Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements. Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia. Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now). gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For serral we get:
wcs lvl: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 0.625 = 1.875 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 2.5 = 5 1st: 4 -> 4 x 5 = 20 total of 28.125 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 1 -> 0.9375 ro4: 0 -> 0 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 7.5 total of 8.4375 gsl lvl: ro8: 2 -> 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ro4: 1 -> 2.5 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 10 total of 15 pts Serral gets a grand total of 51.5625 pts.
gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For classic we get: wcs lvl: ro8: 0 -> 0 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 0 -> 0 total of 1.25 pts 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 5 -> 5 x 0.9375 = 4.6875 ro4: 2 -> 2 x 1.875 = 3.75 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 3 -> 3 x 7.5 = 22.5 total of 30.9375 gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20 total of 48.75 Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial. Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. Now go ahead, argue with facts. Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible.
First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write.
I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie.
The most favourable metric for Serral definitely is not to set WCS as being worth half a Code S, it is counting titles without weighting them on one achievement list(look, Serral is top 10 already this way).
With the criteria The Red Viper has been using, Serral is three Code S tier Premier away from Classic, if you use mine he is within one; I would still say it's pretty close.
The "trivia facts" I pointed out actually seem of some relevance to me in a GOAT challenge and that's why I voted for Serral(his peak was indeed higher, it's very unlikely anyone could replicate his streak and there were no doubts he was the best player in the world after BlizzCon); as I previously said, it is totally understandable to vote for Classic.
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If you weight entirely foreign events the same as GSL serral is only slightly behind classic, therefore I voted serral.
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On May 18 2019 20:53 DBooN wrote:
If you weight entirely foreign events the same as GSL serral is only slightly behind classic, therefore I voted serral.
Cant stand ur arrogance
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On May 18 2019 20:53 DBooN wrote:
If you weight entirely foreign events the same as GSL serral is only slightly behind classic, therefore I voted serral.
Refrain from these streched out misinterpretations of what I write, please.
If I were Ej I would ask myself if being warned and banned so often is just a mere coincidence.
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On May 18 2019 20:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 19:58 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 18 2019 19:08 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote:
Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly. I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt. Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice. Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be. Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results. Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results. You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional. On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 17 2019 21:10 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 19:00 Harris1st wrote:It's okay guys. Both of them will lose to Inno next round If Serral fanboys vote him over Classic they will vote for him against Inno too. At this point the votes have just turned into a popularity contest. What fanboys? I think most of the people who at least posted here, not necessarily those that all voted in Serral vs Classic had pretty decent rationales for how they voted that came down to how they weighted certain things. Via my own weighting that I’ve laid out in the thread Inno wins this one easily, his peak level is comparable if not even higher and he’s also won more, over a longer period. As well as recently beating Serral in a tournament final. I don’t think it’s fair to put it down to blind fanboyism at all.l, as I said myself it was a 51-49 kind of decision for me. He’s won the biggest tournament in the game, and apparently (was posted here and was news to me) has the best winning match streak vs Koreans in the game’s history. There’s little more he can do, outside of go go GSL in future and be called a failure if he doesn’t win the first one he enters by the other side of the fanboy coin. I’d personally love to see another contender over in the best SC2 tournament there is, but I don’t think it’s a prerequisite for him to win this matchup. If being consistently good in the GSL is the weighting then Serral immediately loses any head to head vs guys who’ve been playing in Korean Starleagues for 5+ years immediately, by default. He’ll lose to Dark for example, despite knocking him out of 3 tournaments in the 2018/19 span. I’ll take Serral fanboyism because at least it’s fingers-in-the-ears and he won Blizzcon end of discussion rationales. Korean elitists the yardsticks continually shift between level of play, or cumulative achievement, or prestige whenever it suits an argument. So he needs to play GSL because it’s the highest level of play, but when my ultimate decision over Classic is that I think Serral’s peak level of play is higher, then it’s something else. SuperTournament > GSL vs the World, for some reason, despite the latter having a bigger purse and also the added motivation of Korean pride in stopping the foreigners winning, which is absolutely a thing Korean progamers mention themselves. Which could be a tournament almost specifically designed to give us more Serral vs the best of GSL games to o off and one whose existence I like, despite some flaws IMO in how the spots are filled. The_Red Viper has laid it down pretty well. Classic has objectively better achievements in his career and I haven't heard a "decent rationale" that makes it seem reasonable to vote for Serral. WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then. You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that. Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard. On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out. Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements. Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia. Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now). gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For serral we get:
wcs lvl: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 0.625 = 1.875 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 2.5 = 5 1st: 4 -> 4 x 5 = 20 total of 28.125 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 1 -> 0.9375 ro4: 0 -> 0 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 7.5 total of 8.4375 gsl lvl: ro8: 2 -> 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ro4: 1 -> 2.5 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 10 total of 15 pts Serral gets a grand total of 51.5625 pts.
gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For classic we get: wcs lvl: ro8: 0 -> 0 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 0 -> 0 total of 1.25 pts 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 5 -> 5 x 0.9375 = 4.6875 ro4: 2 -> 2 x 1.875 = 3.75 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 3 -> 3 x 7.5 = 22.5 total of 30.9375 gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20 total of 48.75 Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. Now go ahead, argue with facts. Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible. First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie.
Not a lie - according to my criteria that's absolutely true. But I give you that if you value WCS victories very highly it's possible that Serral's achievements surpass half of Classic's achievements.
By no even remotely reasonable criteria Serral's results surpass Classic's though so the votes for him are entirely due to bias.
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On May 18 2019 21:00 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 20:53 DBooN wrote:
If you weight entirely foreign events the same as GSL serral is only slightly behind classic, therefore I voted serral. Refrain from these streched out misinterpretations of what I write, please. If I were Ej I would ask myself if being warned and banned so often is just a mere coincidence.
If I were you, I'd first admit to purposefuly taking some imaginary moral high ground, just because your favorite player isn't the favorite of others, before I start backseat moderating people who mock that attitude.
Or find a reasonable metric by which Serral is more accomplished than Classic
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On May 18 2019 21:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 20:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 19:58 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 18 2019 19:08 Xain0n wrote:On May 18 2019 17:07 DBooN wrote:
Maybe in 2-3 years Serral can match Classics achievements if he keeps playing well, right now he can't.
The mental gymnastics from Serral fanboys for why he's the greatest despite fewer achievements are silly. I can't really stand this arrogance, Serral was no one in 2017 and became the stongest foreigner ever seen in a couple of years; either you are a seer or you are making predictions without any grain of salt. Classic was underrated during the majority of his career but seems like he is somehow overrated in 2019, his results are outstanding but he looked better at the start of last year before Katowice. Classic's cumulative achievements seem way better than Serral's if you ignore Majors and value ro8, given we want to try to actually have a proper discussion without rating WCS ridicolously low, they become much closer the other way around. Not to mention it's hilarious how people is trying so hard to demonstrate how easy it would have been for any korean to repeat Serral's achievements in 2018... In any of case, I can easily understand why you would pick Classic over Serral, it's fine; however, it is harder and closer than you make it to be. Classic never really stood out during his whole career, he kind of lacks absolute greatness in a GOAT competition; he isn't going far anyway, since Inno is waiting for him Its not at the point of being wrong anymore you are simply spreading misinformationa and lies. Serral has worse results that Classic no matter how you look at it, The Red Viper has broken this down for you several times. Do you have any argument about it? No you just ignore it ramble about careers, peak and then straight out lie about the results. Classic has better results if you count first places, second places, round 4, round of 8, team league any way of measuring actual result goes to Classic. The Red Viper even rated WCS circuit as half a GSL and Serral seemed to have a around 2/3s of Classics results. You can disagree with facts all you want but make sure you make it clear, the only way Serrals result is better than Classic is you value WCS championships as 2x times more competitive than a GSL championship. Is that what you are saying? A WCS victory is double as prestiguous as a GSL championship? And people call me delusional. On May 18 2019 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 18 2019 00:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 17 2019 23:24 Xain0n wrote:On May 17 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On May 17 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 17 2019 21:10 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
If Serral fanboys vote him over Classic they will vote for him against Inno too.
At this point the votes have just turned into a popularity contest. What fanboys? I think most of the people who at least posted here, not necessarily those that all voted in Serral vs Classic had pretty decent rationales for how they voted that came down to how they weighted certain things. Via my own weighting that I’ve laid out in the thread Inno wins this one easily, his peak level is comparable if not even higher and he’s also won more, over a longer period. As well as recently beating Serral in a tournament final. I don’t think it’s fair to put it down to blind fanboyism at all.l, as I said myself it was a 51-49 kind of decision for me. He’s won the biggest tournament in the game, and apparently (was posted here and was news to me) has the best winning match streak vs Koreans in the game’s history. There’s little more he can do, outside of go go GSL in future and be called a failure if he doesn’t win the first one he enters by the other side of the fanboy coin. I’d personally love to see another contender over in the best SC2 tournament there is, but I don’t think it’s a prerequisite for him to win this matchup. If being consistently good in the GSL is the weighting then Serral immediately loses any head to head vs guys who’ve been playing in Korean Starleagues for 5+ years immediately, by default. He’ll lose to Dark for example, despite knocking him out of 3 tournaments in the 2018/19 span. I’ll take Serral fanboyism because at least it’s fingers-in-the-ears and he won Blizzcon end of discussion rationales. Korean elitists the yardsticks continually shift between level of play, or cumulative achievement, or prestige whenever it suits an argument. So he needs to play GSL because it’s the highest level of play, but when my ultimate decision over Classic is that I think Serral’s peak level of play is higher, then it’s something else. SuperTournament > GSL vs the World, for some reason, despite the latter having a bigger purse and also the added motivation of Korean pride in stopping the foreigners winning, which is absolutely a thing Korean progamers mention themselves. Which could be a tournament almost specifically designed to give us more Serral vs the best of GSL games to o off and one whose existence I like, despite some flaws IMO in how the spots are filled. The_Red Viper has laid it down pretty well. Classic has objectively better achievements in his career and I haven't heard a "decent rationale" that makes it seem reasonable to vote for Serral. WCS victories being worth more than zero, but you cannot accept this; pointless to argue, then. You still didn't get the point of not lining them up there huh? I never said they are worth zero, nor did i imply it. I actually did the opposite, i asked you to argue the case that the wcs events are enough to close the gap. So far nothing, i am not surprised by it either because it would most likely be a hilariously bad argument. Ignoring a losing battle is not a bad strategy though, i'll give you that. Serral has more Premier titles, more Major victories(notably HSC), a higher peak, a better streak and, unlike Classic, he was the uncontested best player in the world for a certain period; he obviously could not play in Proleague but it's not like Classic was outstanding in that regard. On his side, Classic has more placements in prestigious Premier tournaments and the fact he played against harder opponents on average; how precisely harder Classic's opponents were is in fact the key of this discussion, but that's hard set objective criteria in order to find this out. Imagining WCS are worth half a Code S, Classic and Serral are pretty close in achievements. Why do you name things serral has more of? Why don't we just look at their holistic (well in this case ro8 and better, offline only, which seems reasonable?) career? You say people neglect the wcs results and say they are worth nothing, when in fact you ignore results of other players to make serral look superior. Can we agree that we simply have to look at their body of work and weigh it up to more or less come to a reasonable conclusion? Higher peak and better streak would already be part of this approach btw, you don't get to add the same thing twice just because you phrase it a little differently. What's next? Higher elo on aligulac, better streak vs zerg players, more interviews with smix. No, all of that is already part of the results we would look at, at best it is some trivia. Ok let's say wcs is worth half of code s, your choice! (i'd disagree with it probably, but hey why not). Then let's say that starleagues are about the same as blizzcon and katowice, every other tournament with top koreans is somewhere between wcs and the highest lvl. (wesg as a wcs event, it has weaker foreigners + top foreigners + 3 top koreans) A win is worth X points, 2nd place 50%, ro4 25%, ro8 12.5% (one could argue about these values ofc, but just to make a point now). gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For serral we get:
wcs lvl: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 0.625 = 1.875 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 2.5 = 5 1st: 4 -> 4 x 5 = 20 total of 28.125 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 1 -> 0.9375 ro4: 0 -> 0 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 7.5 total of 8.4375 gsl lvl: ro8: 2 -> 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ro4: 1 -> 2.5 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 1 -> 10 total of 15 pts Serral gets a grand total of 51.5625 pts.
gsl lvl: win (10pts), 2nd (5pts), ro4 (2.5pts), ro8 (1.25pts) 2nd tier: 7.5 pts, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 wcs lvl: 5pts, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625 For classic we get: wcs lvl: ro8: 0 -> 0 ro4: 1 -> 1.25 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 0 -> 0 total of 1.25 pts 2nd tier lvl: ro8: 5 -> 5 x 0.9375 = 4.6875 ro4: 2 -> 2 x 1.875 = 3.75 2nd: 0 -> 0 1st: 3 -> 3 x 7.5 = 22.5 total of 30.9375 gsl lvl tier: ro8: 3 -> 3 x 1.25 = 3.75 ro4: 6 -> 6 x 2.5 = 15 2nd: 2 -> 2 x 5 = 10 1st: 2 -> 2 x 10 = 20 total of 48.75 Classic gets a grand total of 80.9375 pts I realize that this is just a very broad outline, but notice how basically all of these values are in favor of serral. WCS being half of the highest lvl is a very optimistic outlook, 1st place being worth way more than the others also favors serral due to him winning most things. There are also no teamleague successes involved either, which would only push classic more. If i made some mistake i am sorry, but i doubt it would be crucial. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. Now go ahead, argue with facts. Edit: Note how The Red Viper made the above calculations as favorable for Serral as is possible. First of all, measure your words and learn to read; I said "pretty close", "closer than you make it up to be" and so on, I am not lying nor propagating lies, you are just failing to understand what I write. I originally reacted to Charoisaur who said you could split in half Classic's achievements and he would still be ahead of Serral; that, for one, is a lie. Not a lie - according to my criteria that's absolutely true. But I give you that if you value WCS victories very highly it's possible that Serral's achievements surpass half of Classic's achievements. By no even remotely reasonable criteria Serral's results surpass Classic's though so the votes for him are entirely due to bias.
No real discussion can ever exist if our point of views are so radically different; what you say can only be true if you ignore WCS or consider them irrelevant. These are not reasonable criteria to me, it's due to extreme korean elitism.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On May 18 2019 11:13 BisuDagger wrote:
I would like to hear more arguments as to how the quality of competition during 2018 was as good as the quality of players during Classic's peak. He was winning during an era where some of the other greats were thriving too. And if that's not something you believe can be discussed then what about the game being played. HoTS versus LoTV. Which version do we rate as the more skill demanding version.
I’m not sure how it’s changed all that much, depth is better but the top end of people in the mix for winning things has been relatively static for a pretty long time.
It definitely makes Classic’s consistency better though for sure, as Starleagues were harder to make it through the Ro32 or Ro16.
You can’t really win a tournament nowadays without being in that top tier of players, there’s still enough quality that you need insane bracket luck to fluke a tournament and it doesn’t really happen. Even WESG, the qualifiers themselves are half the tournament if you’re a Korean.
On a pure level of play thing it’s hard to say, there’s strategic development plus execution to factor in. I think Maru and Serral are two who showed stuff in 2018 that was pretty bloody impressive for example.
It does also bring into stark perspective the lack of a Korean breakout player, new blood is always exciting anyway as a bonus but there comes a stage where it’s a necessity rather than a luxury.
Now that foreigners finally seem to have structures and players that can more consistently be at least competitive more frequently with Koreans, Koreans have the problem that without their previous structures new players aren’t making that jump from talented amateur into full-time progamers.
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EPT
