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On October 30 2016 07:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:49 Hider wrote:as money is choked out of the scene players are playing less and moving on to other games or moving forward with life. you never really deal with the money issue. I already covered that previously and it doens't explain why THE SAME PLAYERS GET WORSE OVER TIME. You are basically going to assume that they don't practice despite tournaments stil being active for most of 2016. It's like some people cannot phantom that you you can improve at a slower rate without that rate being negative. Any "reasonable" person would look at the factors presented already and understand that it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that the korean scene is less competitive and that this affects the lvl of play directly
This is exactly what I am talking about. How do you go to negative rate. How do you become worse mechanically while practising. How is Innovation worse today than he was in 2013. I literraly asked that 5 times and every time you ignored it and just moved on. All you can assume is that they don't practice, but then you are basing your whole belief on all of the good koreans not practicising despite them still having regular tournaments to play for. they are practicing but not as much as they are used too. You have to practice a lot just to maintain your skill-level.
yes that was why vortix could not comeback and get to #2 ladder in one month after a 1½ HOTS break..
Oh wait.
And no that's not my personal experience at all. You get rusty but then you play some and you return to your initial skill (and I have taken a ton of breaks).
ANYWAY, you are now claiming now that koreans practiced so little so they got worse. Let me hear you state that directly. YES/NO.
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On October 30 2016 07:40 Elentos wrote:
The thing is, to become a meme, Lilbow had to tell the world he didn't practice for Blizzcon.
Elazer clearly practiced. Is losing a full series at the Global Playoffs in less than 9 minutes enough to become a meme these days? Back in my day, people had to work hard to become memes.
I think it's more to do with him tweeting that he practised ZvT macro for a month, the proceeded to cheese/all in twice.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
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It is not even (only) about quantity of practice, quality (lvl of competition, aka player talent pool actually being in the scene, motivation, etc) is a main factor as well.
But yeah i don't wanna repeat myself over and over again, apparently the only possible outcome is that skill increases because time only goes in one direction on the macro lvl.
Now i will watch some lol, at least Samsung and SKT still give a damn about that game
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On October 30 2016 07:58 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:40 Elentos wrote:
The thing is, to become a meme, Lilbow had to tell the world he didn't practice for Blizzcon.
Elazer clearly practiced. Is losing a full series at the Global Playoffs in less than 9 minutes enough to become a meme these days? Back in my day, people had to work hard to become memes. I think it's more to do with him tweeting that he had practised ZvT macro for a month, then proceeded to cheese/all in twice.
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On October 30 2016 07:58 juicyjames wrote:
Any recommended matches?
i liked the P mirror between Zest and Neeblet
and my main is Terran.. so to get me to think a P mirror is cool .. is doing something.
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On October 30 2016 07:58 juicyjames wrote:
Any recommended matches?
I feel for most people it would probably be every series except TY vs Elazer.
Personally i would only include Neeb vs Zest though
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On October 30 2016 07:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:54 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:49 Hider wrote:as money is choked out of the scene players are playing less and moving on to other games or moving forward with life. you never really deal with the money issue. I already covered that previously and it doens't explain why THE SAME PLAYERS GET WORSE OVER TIME. You are basically going to assume that they don't practice despite tournaments stil being active for most of 2016. It's like some people cannot phantom that you you can improve at a slower rate without that rate being negative. Any "reasonable" person would look at the factors presented already and understand that it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that the korean scene is less competitive and that this affects the lvl of play directly
This is exactly what I am talking about. How do you go to negative rate. How do you become worse mechanically while practising. How is Innovation worse today than he was in 2013. I literraly asked that 5 times and every time you ignored it and just moved on. All you can assume is that they don't practice, but then you are basing your whole belief on all of the good koreans not practicising despite them still having regular tournaments to play for. they are practicing but not as much as they are used too. You have to practice a lot just to maintain your skill-level. yes that was why vortix could not comeback and get to #2 ladder in one month after a 1½ HOTS break.. Oh wait. And no that's not my personal experience at all. You get rusty but then you play some and you return to your initial skill (and I have taken a ton of breaks).
ah okay then Flash should now be better than in 2010 and since Last has beaten him, Last has reached the highest skill-level out of all BW players of all time.
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How could they not practice much though? They are being paid by the team to practice at least a certian amount of games a day. Maybe in the past they practiced more outside their "working" hours.
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It is not even (only) about quantity of practice, quality (lvl of competition, aka player talent pool actually being in the scene, motivation, etc) is a main factor as well.
Still, it's apparent that you are avoiding the question. So I give you another that fits what you say above:
Korean players got worse, either because they didn't practice enough or because their practice partners were bad. Yes/No?
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On October 30 2016 07:58 juicyjames wrote:
Any recommended matches?
Zest vs Neeb game 3 was exiting to be fair. Dark vs Stats game 1 was cool
Other than that TY vs Elazer is a must watch
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On October 30 2016 08:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +It is not even (only) about quantity of practice, quality (lvl of competition, aka player talent pool actually being in the scene, motivation, etc) is a main factor as well. Still, it's apparent that you are avoiding the question. So I give you another that fits what you say above: Korean players got worse, either because they didn't practice enough or because their practice partners were bad. Yes/No?
They simply didn't practice with a lot of motivation. I mean I could play all day but if it's half arsed I would never get better
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On October 30 2016 08:01 Fango wrote:
How could they not practice much though? They are being paid by the team to practice at least a certian amount of games a day. Maybe in the past they practiced more outside their "working" hours.
Depends on your definition of 'team' though.
Nowadays most 'teams' seem to just be a personal sponsorship for a player, rather than an actual team or team environment. Some teams are happy for players to wear their jerseys/logos and couldn't care less about results/how much they play.
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On October 30 2016 08:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +It is not even (only) about quantity of practice, quality (lvl of competition, aka player talent pool actually being in the scene, motivation, etc) is a main factor as well. Still, it's apparent that you are avoiding the question. So I give you another that fits what you say above: Korean players got worse, either because they didn't practice enough or because their practice partners were bad. Yes/No?
I don't care about this discussion anymore, everything important was already said. YOu are right and i move on, that's what you wanted to achieve anyway, no?
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On October 30 2016 08:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:57 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 07:54 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:49 Hider wrote:as money is choked out of the scene players are playing less and moving on to other games or moving forward with life. you never really deal with the money issue. I already covered that previously and it doens't explain why THE SAME PLAYERS GET WORSE OVER TIME. You are basically going to assume that they don't practice despite tournaments stil being active for most of 2016. It's like some people cannot phantom that you you can improve at a slower rate without that rate being negative. Any "reasonable" person would look at the factors presented already and understand that it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that the korean scene is less competitive and that this affects the lvl of play directly
This is exactly what I am talking about. How do you go to negative rate. How do you become worse mechanically while practising. How is Innovation worse today than he was in 2013. I literraly asked that 5 times and every time you ignored it and just moved on. All you can assume is that they don't practice, but then you are basing your whole belief on all of the good koreans not practicising despite them still having regular tournaments to play for. they are practicing but not as much as they are used too. You have to practice a lot just to maintain your skill-level. yes that was why vortix could not comeback and get to #2 ladder in one month after a 1½ HOTS break.. Oh wait. And no that's not my personal experience at all. You get rusty but then you play some and you return to your initial skill (and I have taken a ton of breaks). ah okay then Flash should now be better than in 2010 and since Last has beaten him, Last has reached the highest skill-level out of all BW players of all time.
AND YOUR AVOIDING THE ANSWER AS WELL!
I'll give you my answer when you provide an answer to my question.
But let's be honest: You know you can't directly answer the question because even you can see how ridiculous that will look. And unfortunately that's what your entire theory rest on.
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On October 30 2016 07:30 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:24 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:20 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 07:18 rednusa wrote:On October 30 2016 06:30 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Solid logic. It not like Proleague themselves stated lack of sponsors and matchfixing was the reason for it stopping. It's not like the korean scene was shrinking years before the new WCS changes of 2016. The fact is Blizzard gave a lot of money to Korea this year and earlier years. And next year they will still fund GSL. This argument that they deliberately killed it is absurd and only based on your own rage that you want to channel somewhere so you choose Blizzard as a scapegoat. I am not aware of the facts surround funding. But is it the case that since 2013, Blizzard have 100% funded the prize pools for GSL/SSL? I say 2012 because this is when GSL started losing its main sponsors (i.e. Intel, Ericsson, LG, Pepsi, Hot6ix). And in 2010/11/12, were Blizzard contributing anything to the prize pool for GSL? I do wonder whether Blizzard forced the GSL to give up its independent sponsors or rather Blizzard stepped in to save the GSL when it started losing its sponsors. On October 30 2016 06:32 Musicus wrote:
I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world. But in 2012, we had 9 established teams with team houses. Is there really the financial backing for this to happen again? I get the impression there was more independent money being pumped into the Korean sc2 scene in the early years that dried up when there was no return on investment. Then after that, KeSPA teams came along and saved the day with their existing sponsorships from the broodwar era. Who will save the day this time? This one sound bite really annoys. 'Blizzcon were giving tons of money to the Korean scene and only propping it up'. Yea? So they weren't doing the exact same for the foreign WCS scene at the same time? Region-lock supporters at their finest. Why don't you take your Donald-Trump-I-am-never-wrong logic and fuck off to some other site then. You clearly have nothing positive to add here neither do you care about the Starcraft scene. But yes Blizzard supported the entire scene, both Korea and WCS. They supported a hell of a lot which is why they don't deserve flak for reportedly 'killing the scene' Lol angry much? So because I'm against Region-lock I don't care about the scene? There's the problem isn't it, too many people care about the 'scene' and not the players who play in it. I never once said they killed the scene either? Don't know where you're getting this from.
Well if you really want to know
On October 30 2016 04:21 Biscuittzz wrote:
Showtime's win is a brilliant achievement. However, Im quite annoyed about the format this year of Blizzcon. If we look past the fact that the 8 WCS Circuit spots are effectively welfare spots, my biggest gripe is with the group stage Bo3.
Blizzcon has been a Ro16 Bo5 since 2013 yet this year, the year when foreigners are present, the format is changed to a group stage Bo3. It's well known that a foreigner has a much better chance of beating a Korean when it's Bo3 rather than a Bo5 and also having a second chance in the losers match.
Is it too much tinfoil hat thinking or have Blizz really done all they can to give every advantage to foreigners this year?
On October 30 2016 04:27 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 04:24 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 04:21 Biscuittzz wrote:
Showtime's win is a brilliant achievement. However, Im quite annoyed about the format this year of Blizzcon. If we look past the fact that the 8 WCS Circuit spots are effectively welfare spots, my biggest gripe is with the group stage Bo3.
Blizzcon has been a Ro16 Bo5 since 2013 yet this year, the year when foreigners are present, the format is changed to a group stage Bo3. It's well known that a foreigner has a much better chance of beating a Korean when it's Bo3 rather than a Bo5 and also having a second chance in the losers match.
Is it too much tinfoil hat thinking or have Blizz really done all they can to give every advantage to foreigners this year? double elim bo3 > single elim bo5 imo obviously double elim bo5 would be the dream But your suggestion that Blizz made this format to help foreigners is stupid imo, this is just the standard GSL format, no one is more used to this than the Koreans. Yes it's standard GSL format, but it's been standard GSL format for years now. Why have Blizz suddenly decided to change to this format when the previous 3 years where Bo5? Also coincides with the extra inclusive of foreigners. I do think they made an effort to stack the odds in their favour.
Look! It's you! saying Blizzard rigged the tournament for foreigners
On October 30 2016 04:31 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 04:28 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 04:27 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 04:24 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 04:21 Biscuittzz wrote:
Showtime's win is a brilliant achievement. However, Im quite annoyed about the format this year of Blizzcon. If we look past the fact that the 8 WCS Circuit spots are effectively welfare spots, my biggest gripe is with the group stage Bo3.
Blizzcon has been a Ro16 Bo5 since 2013 yet this year, the year when foreigners are present, the format is changed to a group stage Bo3. It's well known that a foreigner has a much better chance of beating a Korean when it's Bo3 rather than a Bo5 and also having a second chance in the losers match.
Is it too much tinfoil hat thinking or have Blizz really done all they can to give every advantage to foreigners this year? double elim bo3 > single elim bo5 imo obviously double elim bo5 would be the dream But your suggestion that Blizz made this format to help foreigners is stupid imo, this is just the standard GSL format, no one is more used to this than the Koreans. Yes it's standard GSL format, but it's been standard GSL format for years now. Why have Blizz suddenly decided to change to this format when the previous 3 years where Bo5? Also coincides with the extra inclusive of foreigners. I do think they made an effort to stack the odds in their favour. The change to double elim was requested by players and viewers alike, because it's better than double elim. I don't remember suggesting that :/ Think I'll remain cynical.
Look! It's you! denying someone informing you of the real reason but choosing to believe your weird conspiracy
On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 05:36 Musicus wrote:
Basically I agree with TLO.
garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years.
On October 30 2016 05:55 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:50 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
TLO has an interest in claiming the skill level is much higher. He is being paid by Blizzard. If he said the skill level declined it would hit reddit and blow up and be every where. TLO kinda has to say the skill level is higher or he could say nothing at all.
That said, TLO might be right... just saying that there are several factors that make it really, really tough for him to say the top level of play is getting worse.
it will eventually get worse and i don't know if we'll ever hear a caster screaming at BlizzCon 2021
"4 years ago he could've easily micro-ed his way out of this situation but because of a declining income he is spending more time studying medicine and interning at a hospital than playing SC2 because he knows this game is set to die soon!!!" He has to stay relevant some how I guess. Being highlights VOD editor backstage is a big come down for someone claiming to be a progamer.
Look! It's you! 'Caring' about players
On October 30 2016 06:18 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. But that's my point, asking the above players to comment on their own play or the Korean scenes play isn't going to really reveal anything. They're still not gonna hang anyone out to dry. Would be bad PR.
Look! It's you! Saying that even if the currently best players of all three races would say something, you still woudn't believe them because your own truth is better
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On October 30 2016 08:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +It is not even (only) about quantity of practice, quality (lvl of competition, aka player talent pool actually being in the scene, motivation, etc) is a main factor as well. Still, it's apparent that you are avoiding the question. So I give you another that fits what you say above: Korean players got worse, either because they didn't practice enough or because their practice partners were bad. Yes/No?
Yes, also there are fewer top players because of all the retirements.
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The lol song is awful btw, wow.
At least it looks cool i guess
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On October 30 2016 08:03 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 08:02 Hider wrote:It is not even (only) about quantity of practice, quality (lvl of competition, aka player talent pool actually being in the scene, motivation, etc) is a main factor as well. Still, it's apparent that you are avoiding the question. So I give you another that fits what you say above: Korean players got worse, either because they didn't practice enough or because their practice partners were bad. Yes/No? They simply didn't practice with a lot of motivation. I mean I could play all day but if it's half arsed I would never get better
Why didn't they? Why did foreign players get better then? They had similar incentive structure. (Win tournaments, win money).
Why was foreign BW better in 2010 than in 2000?
Why are tabletennis players better today than in 1930? They don't earn alot of money either.
It's just a completely random assumption based on nothing but belief. No data suports it. No qualitative analysis.
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On October 30 2016 08:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:
The lol song is awful btw, wow.
At least it looks cool i guess
Still avoiding the question.
Also failed to support your previous claims on me making everything black and white.
Also failed to provide support on why skillcap would matter.
But you are just gonna make up (wrong) statements (lies) and try to get away with it?
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EPT
