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On October 30 2016 08:34 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 08:22 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 30 2016 08:17 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 08:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 30 2016 08:04 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Look! It's you! Saying that even if the currently best players of all three races would say something, you still woudn't believe them because your own truth is better truth?  ya, players never lie or fix games or turn a blind eye to game-fixing or anything like that. hackers liek testie are never invited to BlizzCon to get smashed by non-hackers. "and every where that mary went.. the lamb was sure to go..." Didn't you hear?? When players are asked an intimate or possibly revealing question they will tell you the 100% unadulterated truth and nothing else. /s this is why i ask questions of Artosis that basically force him to say somethign negative about SC2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/512518-cyan-interviews-talking-to-esports-professionals?page=2#28credit to Cyan for asking the question. i love SC2.. its my favourite game.. but that doesn't mean i'm delusional about where the RTS genre is headed or that everything Blizzard does is always the greatest thing ever. What did he answer? Something about mech? Actually, back when Sc2 was released, Artosis was a much more "no bullshit" guy and would complain alot about balance. Back then I was pretty annoyed by his lack of objectivity so I "baited" him in a comment and he responded (he actually was on TL in 2010) and said something that to me that apparently was too much for the TL mods and those got warned for it. Those were the days. Right now he has become so "politically correct", which makes him boring.
the video of the interview is posted by Cyan in the same thread.
Artosis seemed genuine and honest in his answer... he answered both sides of the question in a good faith way.. he didn't mince words or anything like that.
to me Artosis comes off as very genuine... but it could be my own blind spot.. maybe the guy is a chronic liar.. but it does not seem that way to me.. he seems very straight forward and basically honest.
Artosis said he was most excited about the game "right now".
i agree with him.. i think LotV is miles better than HotS and WoL.. and HotS and WoL were really good.
keep in mind i'm a C&C guy so i like "fast and fluid" style RTS. so when i say i'm really happy with LotV i'm not expecting die hard Brood War players to instantly agree.
also, i don't believe game quality automatically means a game improves in popularity.
lots of great games have come out for decades that were really good and got ignored or declined in popularity.
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On October 30 2016 08:41 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 08:34 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 08:22 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 30 2016 08:17 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 08:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 30 2016 08:04 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Look! It's you! Saying that even if the currently best players of all three races would say something, you still woudn't believe them because your own truth is better truth? ya, players never lie or fix games or turn a blind eye to game-fixing or anything like that. hackers liek testie are never invited to BlizzCon to get smashed by non-hackers. "and every where that mary went.. the lamb was sure to go..." Didn't you hear?? When players are asked an intimate or possibly revealing question they will tell you the 100% unadulterated truth and nothing else. /s this is why i ask questions of Artosis that basically force him to say somethign negative about SC2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/512518-cyan-interviews-talking-to-esports-professionals?page=2#28credit to Cyan for asking the question. i love SC2.. its my favourite game.. but that doesn't mean i'm delusional about where the RTS genre is headed or that everything Blizzard does is always the greatest thing ever. What did he answer? Something about mech? Actually, back when Sc2 was released, Artosis was a much more "no bullshit" guy and would complain alot about balance. Back then I was pretty annoyed by his lack of objectivity so I "baited" him in a comment and he responded (he actually was on TL in 2010) and said something that to me that apparently was too much for the TL mods and those got warned for it. Those were the days. Right now he has become so "politically correct", which makes him boring. That's what happens unfortunately when you're on the blizz payroll. Smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds. Still he's not yet as bad as some other shills.....sorry I meant casters.
Well he was already a "different man" a few months after working for GSL.
If you look at Montecristo - the LOL/OW caster - who works for OGN. That guy is the most antibullshit guy you get in esport. He will say exactly what he thinks and usually does a lot of research and has great reasons for it. He will get alot of haters for it, but is imo so valuable for any esport.
In my opinion we have way too much bullshit in the Sc2 scene. It's way too personality driven.
Though with regards to Montecriso, he probably went a bit too far in his conflicts with Riot, and thus didn't get invited to cast the world champions.
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maybe the guy is a chronic liar..
Oh he is definitely not, and that's not what I mean with no bullshit. No bullshit is just getting rid of the "let me try to tweak my answer/comment so more ppl are pleased as few people must be mad".
Without "bullshit" you get alot more unpopular opinions.
Esport is definitely more fun when you don't have that "filter" on a very analytical mindset.
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during the interview with Cyan Artosis said he was an independent contractor taht works for the GSL production company and that nothing is guaranteed in salary.
he really seems "arms length" with Blizzard.
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Chariosaur needs to switch to Leage of Legends becasue the gap definitely isn't closing there. Koreans are more dominant than ever.
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United States97276 Posts
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On October 30 2016 08:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
during the interview with Cyan Artosis said he was an independent contractor taht works for the GSL production company and that nothing is guaranteed in salary.
he really seems "arms length" with Blizzard.
Yea I think a lot of the casters are independent contractors, Still though, even if you do not work for blizz/gsl per say you won't want to badmouth them as they'll be the ones hiring you most likely in the future. Obviously it's quite naive to believe that an employee of a company would be very 'fight the system' against the company as they want to keep their jobs. But there comes a point were some are blatant shills and liars even when something negative or bad happens.
I do think we need some casters like Incontrol who aren't afraid to speak their minds more often, Not play devils advocate for the sake of it, but have actual reasonable arguments backed up by reasonable evidence and facts.
A big problem I've noticed is that the casters in SC2 always mention that they're really good friends with a lot of the players, seems to be more dominant in the foreigner scene. It's very noticeable when the casters sit on the fence whenever these players are playing and are afraid to call them out on anything.
Example: Listen to Rotterdam when Uthermal is playing. The way he goes on you would think Uthermal is a 6 time GSL/SSL/ WCS Champion. Obviously he's a good player but the fawning becomes way to much some times.
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@Hider
For the skillcap thing, I think it's pretty easy to understand.
If someone reaches his personal skill cap, he wont become better with same or more amount of training. He can maintain his reached skilllevel but also very well could become worse because of other reasons than training: fitness, reaction time and finger speed (as getting older), motivation (winning for the first time is exciting, but it becomes normal over time and therefore less desirable), concentration issues (personal problems can take away quite some focus), pressure (I might be good in practice but I can't handle the pressure in offline games any more - this is also a question of skill for a pro), meta-shift (being forced to play not your strongest style, being not as good in that as in your old style, becoming worse in your old style because current meta dictates not to train that anymore).
But that focuses on the skilllevel of a single pro, not on a whole scene.
The "Koreans retiring" (or becoming irrelevant like Parting, for example) is more important. A smaller player pool means less training partners and therefore less variety in your training (different players with different strengths challenge you in different skill-areas). This can domino because if player a you trained with doesn't train anymore with player b who retired, you won't benefit anymore from the stuff that player a learned while training with player b.
The question is, where is the limit of how small a top tier player pool can be without significantly losing training variety and therefore decreasing in skill?
I'd say the limit isn't reached yet in Korea but it's threatening the Korean scene. Especially thinking of other factors that probably will kick in the next years: worse infra structure (no team house for many players), less salary (more teamless players), probably less fame (fewer viewers) - this will affect training. Some may be able to keep it up but not everybody is a taeja or byun.
In comparison to HotS it's hard to judge, if players in LotV are better or worse now because LotV still isn't figured out (and wont be soon because of big changes) so stuff doesn't get perfected as much yet.
So the statement of pros is the clearest information we can get for now, although we have to consider them being affected by their experience ingame (which doesn't mean they lie: perhaps their feelings just let them be wrong).
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On October 30 2016 08:45 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 08:41 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 08:34 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 08:22 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 30 2016 08:17 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 08:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 30 2016 08:04 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Look! It's you! Saying that even if the currently best players of all three races would say something, you still woudn't believe them because your own truth is better truth? ya, players never lie or fix games or turn a blind eye to game-fixing or anything like that. hackers liek testie are never invited to BlizzCon to get smashed by non-hackers. "and every where that mary went.. the lamb was sure to go..." Didn't you hear?? When players are asked an intimate or possibly revealing question they will tell you the 100% unadulterated truth and nothing else. /s this is why i ask questions of Artosis that basically force him to say somethign negative about SC2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/512518-cyan-interviews-talking-to-esports-professionals?page=2#28credit to Cyan for asking the question. i love SC2.. its my favourite game.. but that doesn't mean i'm delusional about where the RTS genre is headed or that everything Blizzard does is always the greatest thing ever. What did he answer? Something about mech? Actually, back when Sc2 was released, Artosis was a much more "no bullshit" guy and would complain alot about balance. Back then I was pretty annoyed by his lack of objectivity so I "baited" him in a comment and he responded (he actually was on TL in 2010) and said something that to me that apparently was too much for the TL mods and those got warned for it. Those were the days. Right now he has become so "politically correct", which makes him boring. That's what happens unfortunately when you're on the blizz payroll. Smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds. Still he's not yet as bad as some other shills.....sorry I meant casters. Well he was already a "different man" a few months after working for GSL. If you look at Montecristo - the LOL/OW caster - who works for OGN. That guy is the most antibullshit guy you get in esport. He will say exactly what he thinks and usually does a lot of research and has great reasons for it. He will get alot of haters for it, but is imo so valuable for any esport. In my opinion we have way too much bullshit in the Sc2 scene. It's way too personality driven. Though with regards to Montecriso, he probably went a bit too far in his conflicts with Riot, and thus didn't get invited to cast the world champions.
Monte is fantastic for LoL.
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If someone reaches his personal skill cap, he wont become better with same or more amount of training.
Except it was the other way around. The video showed there was an infinitive skillcap. The first time he mentioned it I just thought it was weird and hence I ignored it, but then he repeated it, and now it appears that he doesn't wanna discuss at all despite all of his baiting.
The "Koreans retiring" (or becoming irrelevant like Parting, for example) is more important. A smaller player pool means less training partners and therefore less variety in your training
So foreigners have a higher quality and pool of players?
Obviously they don't, and that theory only supports the opposite, that foreigners should continue to get worse because they historically have had shit practice partners.
Again you seem to be implying that I am not aware that koreans don't have as good conditions to improve as fast.
No what is insanity in this discussion is implying that they are getting worse despite practicising.
Non-optimal conditions =/ you get worse when practicising.
If you a few pages past I already presented my theory as to why foreigners are catching up and its fairly simply: They are getting better because there are more new players to take over when the old guys don't improve as fast anymore.
That's not really very complicated and has support in empirical data.
In comparison to HotS it's hard to judge, if players in LotV are better or worse now because LotV still isn't figured out (and wont be soon because of big changes) so stuff doesn't get perfected as much yet.
This is a discussion of mechanics.
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Example: Listen to Rotterdam when Uthermal is playing. The way he goes on you would think Uthermal is a 6 time GSL/SSL/ WCS Champion. Obviously he's a good player but the fawning becomes way to much some times.
The great thing about Montecristo is that he will just say "that was bad/terrible. Here is why and here is what they should have done".
And it won't be like Wolf who sometimes have a habit of making wrong comments. Montecristo usually knows what he is talking about (he spends alot of time on researching, analyzing vods - actually analyzing, not casting).
Starcraft (any esport) could really use a guy like him.
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On October 30 2016 09:19 Biscuittzz wrote:
I do think we need some casters like Incontrol who aren't afraid to speak their minds more often, Not play devils advocate for the sake of it, but have actual reasonable arguments backed up by reasonable evidence and facts.
he does a good job of walking the political tight rope. i suspect behind the scenes Blizz thanks him for not being too harsh and then says "hey man.. whats the real truth". hopefully, behind the scenes, and out of the spotlight he gives them the ugly facts.
from what i understand Blizzard uses "strike teams" to critique their own work. these teams swoop in on a project midway through with no allegiances and no preconceived notions.. and they rip the project to shreds.
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Just watched Zest/Neeb and TY/Elazer. If only Elazer listened to more Wolf casts. He'd know TY is the god of holding off early pressure. That was pretty bad.
PvP was great though.
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On October 30 2016 10:40 Phredxor wrote:
Just watched Zest/Neeb and TY/Elazer. If only Elazer listened to more Wolf casts. He'd know TY is the god of holding off early pressure. That was pretty bad.
PvP was great though.
Yeah not sure why Elazer went for those all in moves. He said he even had long macro strats prepared.
TY is nearly untouchabble in the early game.
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btw in the Artosis interview with Cyan he stated flatly, with zero emotion that he does not care for Overwatch.
so i don't know how he could be described as a Blizzard shill.
if were a shill he would've danced around the question saying something like "its not my kind of game ..but for TF2 fans its really teh spiritual successor and the best new game of 2016 with an incredible IP and really great art work.. blah blah"
he didn't do that. he basically buried Overwatch.
so i don't think Artosis is a Blizzard shill.
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First time seeing TY smile after a match.
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I agree with Hider. Sc2 casting feels like the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray you know the jokes, the humor, nobody is going out of there way to bring something interesting to the table ... everyone more or less agrees with each other.
"Why do you think he will win, i just feel like it ... he is the best player" ... "Violet is very active on the korean ladder" eh cool? (games played, win rates = does that really make him "good"?!, trends)
Montecristo or Thorin tend to challenge established views by well thought out arguments. Even if they are wrong, the result is an interesting discussion on the desk. The ability to analyse or predict at a deeper level, (chooses this map cause win rate is 90 % in the last 10 games beating bisu, stork and jangbi but he lost to stats for this reason, why is this map suiting the players style ... used buildorders, tendences, scouting pattern etc.)
Forming an opinion on certain issues in the game and scene (The AWP Nerf) www.youtube.com
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On October 30 2016 13:44 ionONE wrote:I agree with Hider. Sc2 casting feels like the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray you know the jokes, the humor, nobody is going out of there way to bring something interesting to the table ... everyone more or less agrees with each other. "Why do you think he will win, i just feel like it ... he is the best player" ... "Violet is very active on the korean ladder" eh cool? (games played, win rates = does that really make him "good"?!, trends) Montecristo or Thorin tend to challenge established views by well thought out arguments. Even if they are wrong, the result is an interesting discussion on the desk. The ability to analyse or predict at a deeper level, (chooses this map cause win rate is 90 % in the last 10 games beating bisu, stork and jangbi but he lost to stats for this reason, why is this map suiting the players style ... used buildorders, tendences, scouting pattern etc.) Forming an opinion on certain issues in the game and scene (The AWP Nerf) www.youtube.com
While I agree with you about the caster's being predictable regarding humor and player's, I have to disagree about the deep analysis.
Tasteless is great at deep analysis on maps and matchups. He also knows a lot about some player's preferred styles.
Monte and Thorin may speak their minds a bit more freely, but they do not provide the deep analysis you mentioned in the same paragraph. Perhaps you weren't referring to those two when you mentioned deep analysis and deeper level of prediction, but it seemed like it.
Honestly, I don't care what the casters say or do. I'm not watching these games because of them. I do enjoy some of their banter, and they provide some insight, but I watch these tournaments because of the nerd ballers wrecking keyboards and faces.
Do I care that they pander to Blizzard and dare not speak against their overlords and masters? No. Do I care that they don't speak openly, and instead guard their words very carefully? No.
But that is just me, and I am only one man.
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On October 30 2016 14:00 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 13:44 ionONE wrote:I agree with Hider. Sc2 casting feels like the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray you know the jokes, the humor, nobody is going out of there way to bring something interesting to the table ... everyone more or less agrees with each other. "Why do you think he will win, i just feel like it ... he is the best player" ... "Violet is very active on the korean ladder" eh cool? (games played, win rates = does that really make him "good"?!, trends) Montecristo or Thorin tend to challenge established views by well thought out arguments. Even if they are wrong, the result is an interesting discussion on the desk. The ability to analyse or predict at a deeper level, (chooses this map cause win rate is 90 % in the last 10 games beating bisu, stork and jangbi but he lost to stats for this reason, why is this map suiting the players style ... used buildorders, tendences, scouting pattern etc.) Forming an opinion on certain issues in the game and scene (The AWP Nerf) www.youtube.com While I agree with you about the caster's being predictable regarding humor and player's, I have to disagree about the deep analysis. Tasteless is great at deep analysis on maps and matchups. He also knows a lot about some player's preferred styles. Monte and Thorin may speak their minds a bit more freely, but they do not provide the deep analysis you mentioned in the same paragraph. Perhaps you weren't referring to those two when you mentioned deep analysis and deeper level of prediction, but it seemed like it. Honestly, I don't care what the casters say or do. I'm not watching these games because of them. I do enjoy some of their banter, and they provide some insight, but I watch these tournaments because of the nerd ballers wrecking keyboards and faces. Do I care that they pander to Blizzard and dare not speak against their overlords and masters? No. Do I care that they don't speak openly, and instead guard their words very carefully? No. But that is just me, and I am only one man.
Probably meant to be Artosis there.
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EPT
