When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day.
All of these players did that
agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans
You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find:
Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank
None of these were the best of the best either
Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake.
You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
gj picking the least accomplished player out of the listed koreans against the most accomplished player out of the listed foreigners. but lilbow got his results in a region-locked tournament so I believe they are quite even.
You're the one who said he was much more accomplished than Lilbow, not me. I picked the most obvious example, but I wouldn't say Heart or Fantasy accomplished more either out of the ones you listed.
Fantasy qualified for Blizzcon without a region-locked tournament and was a Code S player, even reached ro16 once. he's definitely much more accomplished than lilbow. Heart is maybe more even but I still think he has the edge.
On October 30 2016 07:10 Elentos wrote: By the way I have actually found 1 player who made Code A this year who wasn't around 4 years ago.
I hereby formally declare Afreeca Freecs DRGling the Korean hope.
I was so sad when i read that Zoun retired
I also remember someone saying DRGling is actually not super committed to SC2 and more of a practice partner, and that he plays (and is good at) a lot of different games. So maybe he'll go to Overwatch too.
I already miss Zoun. He was so cute.
Ah you really wanna make me sad If next year south korea only cares about lol / OW i only have CSGO left.
No not because i hate non koreans, csgo doesn't have any koreans at all @ whoever gets offended by me saying this
to be fair to byun, the collapse of his kespa team/removal of kespa salary probably disincentivized him from practicing for this 500k tourney, also ofc, jet lag
You are only memeing at this point huh The big picture is there, if you wanna see it is up to you man
On October 30 2016 06:30 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Solid logic. It not like Proleague themselves stated lack of sponsors and matchfixing was the reason for it stopping. It's not like the korean scene was shrinking years before the new WCS changes of 2016. The fact is Blizzard gave a lot of money to Korea this year and earlier years. And next year they will still fund GSL. This argument that they deliberately killed it is absurd and only based on your own rage that you want to channel somewhere so you choose Blizzard as a scapegoat.
I am not aware of the facts surround funding. But is it the case that since 2013, Blizzard have 100% funded the prize pools for GSL/SSL? I say 2012 because this is when GSL started losing its main sponsors (i.e. Intel, Ericsson, LG, Pepsi, Hot6ix). And in 2010/11/12, were Blizzard contributing anything to the prize pool for GSL?
I do wonder whether Blizzard forced the GSL to give up its independent sponsors or rather Blizzard stepped in to save the GSL when it started losing its sponsors.
On October 30 2016 06:32 Musicus wrote: I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world.
But in 2012, we had 9 established teams with team houses. Is there really the financial backing for this to happen again? I get the impression there was more independent money being pumped into the Korean sc2 scene in the early years that dried up when there was no return on investment. Then after that, KeSPA teams came along and saved the day with their existing sponsorships from the broodwar era. Who will save the day this time?
This one sound bite really annoys. 'Blizzcon were giving tons of money to the Korean scene and only propping it up'.
Yea? So they weren't doing the exact same for the foreign WCS scene at the same time? Region-lock supporters at their finest.
On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:
On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: [quote] Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake
When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day.
All of these players did that
agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans
You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find:
Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank
None of these were the best of the best either
Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake.
You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
gj picking the least accomplished player out of the listed koreans against the most accomplished player out of the listed foreigners. but lilbow got his results in a region-locked tournament so I believe they are quite even.
You're the one who said he was much more accomplished than Lilbow, not me. I picked the most obvious example, but I wouldn't say Heart or Fantasy accomplished more either out of the ones you listed.
Fantasy qualified for Blizzcon without a region-locked tournament and was a Code S player, even reached ro16 once. he's definitely much more accomplished than lilbow. Heart is maybe more even but I still think he has the edge.
Reaching a RO16 in GSL once doesn't impress me a whole lot, but each to their own.
That is actually the video people post when saying that you can always get better mechanically and that we aren't even close to the skill cap. Funny that you use it for something else
On October 30 2016 06:30 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Solid logic. It not like Proleague themselves stated lack of sponsors and matchfixing was the reason for it stopping. It's not like the korean scene was shrinking years before the new WCS changes of 2016. The fact is Blizzard gave a lot of money to Korea this year and earlier years. And next year they will still fund GSL. This argument that they deliberately killed it is absurd and only based on your own rage that you want to channel somewhere so you choose Blizzard as a scapegoat.
I am not aware of the facts surround funding. But is it the case that since 2013, Blizzard have 100% funded the prize pools for GSL/SSL? I say 2012 because this is when GSL started losing its main sponsors (i.e. Intel, Ericsson, LG, Pepsi, Hot6ix). And in 2010/11/12, were Blizzard contributing anything to the prize pool for GSL?
I do wonder whether Blizzard forced the GSL to give up its independent sponsors or rather Blizzard stepped in to save the GSL when it started losing its sponsors.
On October 30 2016 06:32 Musicus wrote: I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world.
But in 2012, we had 9 established teams with team houses. Is there really the financial backing for this to happen again? I get the impression there was more independent money being pumped into the Korean sc2 scene in the early years that dried up when there was no return on investment. Then after that, KeSPA teams came along and saved the day with their existing sponsorships from the broodwar era. Who will save the day this time?
This one sound bite really annoys. 'Blizzcon were giving tons of money to the Korean scene and only propping it up'.
Yea? So they weren't doing the exact same for the foreign WCS scene at the same time? Region-lock supporters at their finest.
Why don't you take your Donald-Trump-I-am-never-wrong logic and fuck off to some other site then. You clearly have nothing positive to add here neither do you care about the Starcraft scene.
But yes Blizzard supported the entire scene, both Korea and WCS. They supported a hell of a lot which is why they don't deserve flak for reportedly 'killing the scene'
On October 30 2016 06:30 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Solid logic. It not like Proleague themselves stated lack of sponsors and matchfixing was the reason for it stopping. It's not like the korean scene was shrinking years before the new WCS changes of 2016. The fact is Blizzard gave a lot of money to Korea this year and earlier years. And next year they will still fund GSL. This argument that they deliberately killed it is absurd and only based on your own rage that you want to channel somewhere so you choose Blizzard as a scapegoat.
I am not aware of the facts surround funding. But is it the case that since 2013, Blizzard have 100% funded the prize pools for GSL/SSL? I say 2012 because this is when GSL started losing its main sponsors (i.e. Intel, Ericsson, LG, Pepsi, Hot6ix). And in 2010/11/12, were Blizzard contributing anything to the prize pool for GSL?
I do wonder whether Blizzard forced the GSL to give up its independent sponsors or rather Blizzard stepped in to save the GSL when it started losing its sponsors.
On October 30 2016 06:32 Musicus wrote: I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world.
But in 2012, we had 9 established teams with team houses. Is there really the financial backing for this to happen again? I get the impression there was more independent money being pumped into the Korean sc2 scene in the early years that dried up when there was no return on investment. Then after that, KeSPA teams came along and saved the day with their existing sponsorships from the broodwar era. Who will save the day this time?
This one sound bite really annoys. 'Blizzcon were giving tons of money to the Korean scene and only propping it up'.
Yea? So they weren't doing the exact same for the foreign WCS scene at the same time? Region-lock supporters at their finest.
I meant no hostility at all. I am actually completely against the region-lock, trust me. I am genuinely wondering about the level of funding. Like is it all Blizzard? Or do SpoTV, Afreeca, (previously) GOM pay anything to Blizzard for the rights to broadcast SC2? Or is the situation not so transparent? That's all I was wondering :/
On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote: [quote]
When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day.
All of these players did that
agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans
You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find:
Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank
None of these were the best of the best either
Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake.
You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
gj picking the least accomplished player out of the listed koreans against the most accomplished player out of the listed foreigners. but lilbow got his results in a region-locked tournament so I believe they are quite even.
You're the one who said he was much more accomplished than Lilbow, not me. I picked the most obvious example, but I wouldn't say Heart or Fantasy accomplished more either out of the ones you listed.
Fantasy qualified for Blizzcon without a region-locked tournament and was a Code S player, even reached ro16 once. he's definitely much more accomplished than lilbow. Heart is maybe more even but I still think he has the edge.
Reaching a RO16 in GSL once doesn't impress me a whole lot, but each to their own.
he beat soO to get there which is harder than Lilbows entire WCS run.
On October 30 2016 07:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: That is actually the video people post when saying that you can always get better mechanically and that we aren't even close to the skill cap.
Well, that seems silly. How would you always know which zergling is gonna get shot? What if your opponent starts target firing with the tanks to counter your micro? What if human hands can't actually move this fast? And how big is your bank gonna be if you spend this much time microing all your shit?
On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: [quote] All of these players did that
agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans
You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find:
Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank
None of these were the best of the best either
Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake.
You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
gj picking the least accomplished player out of the listed koreans against the most accomplished player out of the listed foreigners. but lilbow got his results in a region-locked tournament so I believe they are quite even.
You're the one who said he was much more accomplished than Lilbow, not me. I picked the most obvious example, but I wouldn't say Heart or Fantasy accomplished more either out of the ones you listed.
Fantasy qualified for Blizzcon without a region-locked tournament and was a Code S player, even reached ro16 once. he's definitely much more accomplished than lilbow. Heart is maybe more even but I still think he has the edge.
Reaching a RO16 in GSL once doesn't impress me a whole lot, but each to their own.
he beat soO to get there which is harder than Lilbows entire WCS run.
Fantasy was definitely a great player, but iirc his retirement didn't have to do anything with wcs
On October 30 2016 06:30 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Solid logic. It not like Proleague themselves stated lack of sponsors and matchfixing was the reason for it stopping. It's not like the korean scene was shrinking years before the new WCS changes of 2016. The fact is Blizzard gave a lot of money to Korea this year and earlier years. And next year they will still fund GSL. This argument that they deliberately killed it is absurd and only based on your own rage that you want to channel somewhere so you choose Blizzard as a scapegoat.
I am not aware of the facts surround funding. But is it the case that since 2013, Blizzard have 100% funded the prize pools for GSL/SSL? I say 2012 because this is when GSL started losing its main sponsors (i.e. Intel, Ericsson, LG, Pepsi, Hot6ix). And in 2010/11/12, were Blizzard contributing anything to the prize pool for GSL?
I do wonder whether Blizzard forced the GSL to give up its independent sponsors or rather Blizzard stepped in to save the GSL when it started losing its sponsors.
On October 30 2016 06:32 Musicus wrote: I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world.
But in 2012, we had 9 established teams with team houses. Is there really the financial backing for this to happen again? I get the impression there was more independent money being pumped into the Korean sc2 scene in the early years that dried up when there was no return on investment. Then after that, KeSPA teams came along and saved the day with their existing sponsorships from the broodwar era. Who will save the day this time?
This one sound bite really annoys. 'Blizzcon were giving tons of money to the Korean scene and only propping it up'.
Yea? So they weren't doing the exact same for the foreign WCS scene at the same time? Region-lock supporters at their finest.
Why don't you take your Donald-Trump-I-am-never-wrong logic and fuck off to some other site then. You clearly have nothing positive to add here neither do you care about the Starcraft scene.
But yes Blizzard supported the entire scene, both Korea and WCS. They supported a hell of a lot which is why they don't deserve flak for reportedly 'killing the scene'
Lol angry much? So because I'm against Region-lock I don't care about the scene? There's the problem isn't it, too many people care about the 'scene' and not the players who play in it.
I never once said they killed the scene either? Don't know where you're getting this from.
My post was annoyed at the fact people are trying to justify the death of the Kr scene on the fact that Blizz subsidised it for so long. I bet if the foreigner scene was to go the same way would they also blame Blizz on pumping cash into it?
You are only memeing at this point huh The big picture is there, if you wanna see it is up to you man
There is nothing to respond to. Like let's sum up the arguments of your side:
1. Guitar 2. Games look less clean. 3. Koreans have retired.
All of those arguments (except the guitar one) has effectively been disproven/shown to not be good reasons. And people who use the less clean argument imo directly shows that they don't understand how to judge mechanical skills in different contexts.
So all you have left is "I believe" with no reasoning besides that.
Hence I also believe Jinro 2010 = best foreign terran ever.
I mean the big picture is there. You just have to open your eyes.
On October 30 2016 07:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: That is actually the video people post when saying that you can always get better mechanically and that we aren't even close to the skill cap.
Well, that seems silly. How would you always know which zergling is gonna get shot? What if your opponent starts target firing with the tanks to counter your micro? What if human hands can't actually move this fast? And how big is your bank gonna be if you spend this much time microing all your shit?
Well yeah which is why i said previously that theoretical skill cap is meaningless and humans have limits.
On October 30 2016 06:30 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Solid logic. It not like Proleague themselves stated lack of sponsors and matchfixing was the reason for it stopping. It's not like the korean scene was shrinking years before the new WCS changes of 2016. The fact is Blizzard gave a lot of money to Korea this year and earlier years. And next year they will still fund GSL. This argument that they deliberately killed it is absurd and only based on your own rage that you want to channel somewhere so you choose Blizzard as a scapegoat.
I am not aware of the facts surround funding. But is it the case that since 2013, Blizzard have 100% funded the prize pools for GSL/SSL? I say 2012 because this is when GSL started losing its main sponsors (i.e. Intel, Ericsson, LG, Pepsi, Hot6ix). And in 2010/11/12, were Blizzard contributing anything to the prize pool for GSL?
I do wonder whether Blizzard forced the GSL to give up its independent sponsors or rather Blizzard stepped in to save the GSL when it started losing its sponsors.
On October 30 2016 06:32 Musicus wrote: I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world.
But in 2012, we had 9 established teams with team houses. Is there really the financial backing for this to happen again? I get the impression there was more independent money being pumped into the Korean sc2 scene in the early years that dried up when there was no return on investment. Then after that, KeSPA teams came along and saved the day with their existing sponsorships from the broodwar era. Who will save the day this time?
This one sound bite really annoys. 'Blizzcon were giving tons of money to the Korean scene and only propping it up'.
Yea? So they weren't doing the exact same for the foreign WCS scene at the same time? Region-lock supporters at their finest.
I meant no hostility at all. I am actually completely against the region-lock, trust me. I am genuinely wondering about the level of funding. Like is it all Blizzard? Or do SpoTV, Afreeca, (previously) GOM pay anything to Blizzard for the rights to broadcast SC2? Or is the situation not so transparent? That's all I was wondering :/
No my bad, wasn't aimed at you, rather the post you were quoting.
Guys watch the best BW foreign terran player at all time who afterwards managed to become a very rich poker player. Amazing. Idra 2009 wouldn't stand a chance against him because BW popularity outside Korea declined during that period.
On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans
You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find:
Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank
None of these were the best of the best either
Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake.
You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
gj picking the least accomplished player out of the listed koreans against the most accomplished player out of the listed foreigners. but lilbow got his results in a region-locked tournament so I believe they are quite even.
You're the one who said he was much more accomplished than Lilbow, not me. I picked the most obvious example, but I wouldn't say Heart or Fantasy accomplished more either out of the ones you listed.
Fantasy qualified for Blizzcon without a region-locked tournament and was a Code S player, even reached ro16 once. he's definitely much more accomplished than lilbow. Heart is maybe more even but I still think he has the edge.
Reaching a RO16 in GSL once doesn't impress me a whole lot, but each to their own.
he beat soO to get there which is harder than Lilbows entire WCS run.
Fantasy was definitely a great player, but iirc his retirement didn't have to do anything with wcs
That's what we were originally told, but I'm pretty sure a couple of months after the fact Fantasy flat out said the fact he couldn't go to foreign tournaments anymore was the main reason he chose to retire then and there.
He was still playing LotV until his military service was due.
On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans
You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find:
Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank
None of these were the best of the best either
Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake.
You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
gj picking the least accomplished player out of the listed koreans against the most accomplished player out of the listed foreigners. but lilbow got his results in a region-locked tournament so I believe they are quite even.
You're the one who said he was much more accomplished than Lilbow, not me. I picked the most obvious example, but I wouldn't say Heart or Fantasy accomplished more either out of the ones you listed.
Fantasy qualified for Blizzcon without a region-locked tournament and was a Code S player, even reached ro16 once. he's definitely much more accomplished than lilbow. Heart is maybe more even but I still think he has the edge.
Reaching a RO16 in GSL once doesn't impress me a whole lot, but each to their own.
he beat soO to get there which is harder than Lilbows entire WCS run.
Fantasy was definitely a great player, but iirc his retirement didn't have to do anything with wcs
"Dead Pixels didn't try to dissuade me from my decision. I have often said that I have no fixed plans for next year, and with the changes in WCS policies, the Korean players in foreign teams are in an unclear position. Also, if you're eliminated from a tournament, you're out of a job for a long time. Of course, new tournaments have been introduced, such as the Cross Finals, but I wasn't confident that I could make it up that high."
oh man i didnt saw ShoWTimE winning against ByuN im so sad right now still, gratz to him, he played really good with those defensive collossi, really well prepared!
EPT
If next year south korea only cares about lol / OW i only have CSGO left. 
