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anyone else want to explain to mean how in the actual fuck showtime 2-0'd ByuN?
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On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
there have been pretty reliable reports that koreans are a lot less motivated this year and are playing a lot of LoL and Overwatch. Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc... We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players. Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day.
All of these players did that
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On October 30 2016 06:59 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:56 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for.
Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea.
I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. there have been pretty reliable reports that koreans are a lot less motivated this year and are playing a lot of LoL and Overwatch. Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc... We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players. Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. It lacks new blood, but it's not as desperate yet. You have prospects for the future like Reynor or Clem. O'gaming is fostering the French scene very well. Meanwhile, I don't think there's anyone doing well in the Korean scene who wasn't already a progamer after the KeSPA switch was completed. Even Reynor has been playing for 4 years or so already. They are super young sure, but I think we can also find 2 players in korea who have started playing and joined a team during the last 4 years.
You won't find one who made Code A in the past 2 years I think.
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On October 30 2016 07:01 Cricketer12 wrote:
anyone else want to explain to mean how in the actual fuck showtime 2-0'd ByuN?
Showtime played super solid macro games centered around taking 0 early game damage, very high level. And ByuN honestly was quite a disappointment. Especially his late game army micro was, frankly, shit.
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On October 30 2016 07:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
there have been pretty reliable reports that koreans are a lot less motivated this year and are playing a lot of LoL and Overwatch. Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc... We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players. Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake Lucifron, Vortix, Huk maybe. qxc , hasu, Lilbow and firecake were never anywhere near the top of the world.
They don't have to be at the top of the world to have the same impact on the foreign scene as korean players had on the korean scene.
Otherwise you are basically saying the scenes are/were equally strong, if the foreign players that stopped playing had to be as strong as the korean players that stopped playing.
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On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc...
We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players. Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that
agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
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HuK was really good when he was practicing beside MC all day and all night 
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On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc...
We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players. Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that
Consistently? No they didn't, maybe only HuK before he joing EG. The others might have won a series here and there but that doesn't make them top tier.
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On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
At least Elazer will see from this that becoming a meme will do more for his career than actually playing.
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On October 30 2016 07:01 Cricketer12 wrote:
anyone else want to explain to mean how in the actual fuck showtime 2-0'd ByuN?
Byun sucks.
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On October 30 2016 07:01 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:59 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:56 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
there have been pretty reliable reports that koreans are a lot less motivated this year and are playing a lot of LoL and Overwatch. Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc... We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players. Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. It lacks new blood, but it's not as desperate yet. You have prospects for the future like Reynor or Clem. O'gaming is fostering the French scene very well. Meanwhile, I don't think there's anyone doing well in the Korean scene who wasn't already a progamer after the KeSPA switch was completed. Even Reynor has been playing for 4 years or so already. They are super young sure, but I think we can also find 2 players in korea who have started playing and joined a team during the last 4 years. You won't find one who made Code A in the past 2 years I think.
That's really sad tbh and a huge problem. Sadly that's just how popular sc2 in Korea is  .
Still I don't think that made Koreans players get worse, while Reynor and Clem breaking into the scene prevented foreigners from getting worse.
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On October 30 2016 07:05 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:01 Cricketer12 wrote:
anyone else want to explain to mean how in the actual fuck showtime 2-0'd ByuN? Byun sucks.
All Koreans do now.
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I feel like you don't really understand what people say when speaking about korean retirements making the scene less competitive. Not only the absolute top pros at the time matter, the whole talent pool which would train against each other with all the different strengths/weakenesses/ideas/styles, etc matter.
A scene which has Rain, Parting, Jangbi (to name a few toss players) or Effort, Roro, Life, Soulkey is simply more competitive than a scene which barely has a top zerg left. (as an example)
The scene was the most competitive after the Kespa switch, when all the new talent came in and formed the competition.
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On October 30 2016 07:05 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:05 Phredxor wrote:On October 30 2016 07:01 Cricketer12 wrote:
anyone else want to explain to mean how in the actual fuck showtime 2-0'd ByuN? Byun sucks. All Koreans do now.
Ofc. Neeb is GOAT. Byun just sucks worse because he's GSL champ.
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I think there's no point discussing this anymore. I will just enjoy the games from now on.
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On October 30 2016 07:05 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:01 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:56 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc...
We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players. Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. It lacks new blood, but it's not as desperate yet. You have prospects for the future like Reynor or Clem. O'gaming is fostering the French scene very well. Meanwhile, I don't think there's anyone doing well in the Korean scene who wasn't already a progamer after the KeSPA switch was completed. Even Reynor has been playing for 4 years or so already. They are super young sure, but I think we can also find 2 players in korea who have started playing and joined a team during the last 4 years. You won't find one who made Code A in the past 2 years I think. That's really sad tbh and a huge problem. Sadly that's just how populer sc2 in Korea is . Still I don't think that made Koreans players get worse, while Reynor and Clem breaking into the scene prevented foreigners from getting worse.
No, but long term it means the Korean scene is just gonna dissolve if there's no new blood coming in. At least most foreigners aren't from countries with complusory military service.
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On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life.
You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans
You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find:
Golden
Seed
Sacscri
Shine
Heart
Supernova
Fantasy
Crank
None of these were the best of the best either
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On October 30 2016 07:06 Charoisaur wrote:
I think there's no point discussing this anymore. I will just enjoy the games from now on.
on league of legends no western teams beat a korean one the last 4 years, and there were 3/4 korean teams in the semi final of the world championship
best game to see top tier korean talent gaming
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France12907 Posts
On October 30 2016 07:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel like you don't really understand what people say when speaking about korean retirements making the scene less competitive. Not only the absolute top pros at the time matter, the whole talent pool which would train against each other with all the different strengths/weakenesses/ideas/styles, etc matter.
A scene which has Rain, Parting, Jangbi (to name a few toss players) or Effort, Roro, Life, Soulkey is simply more competitive than a scene which barely has a top zerg left. (as an example)
The scene was the most competitive after the Kespa switch, when all the new talent came in and formed the competition.
It wasn't as competitive as early WoL but it was the second most competitive moment, yes.
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On October 30 2016 07:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel like you don't really understand what people say when speaking about korean retirements making the scene less competitive. Not only the absolute top pros at the time matter, the whole talent pool which would train against each other with all the different strengths/weakenesses/ideas/styles, etc matter.
A scene which has Rain, Parting, Jangbi (to name a few toss players) or Effort, Roro, Life, Soulkey is simply more competitive than a scene which barely has a top zerg left. (as an example)
The scene was the most competitive after the Kespa switch, when all the new talent came in and formed the competition.
Exactly this, and the foreign talent pool shrunk just as much as the korean talent pool. Obviously those players were not as good as the korean players, but they had equal value to the weaker foreign scene.
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EPT
