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Korea players really like the Co-Op mode and the Nova Campaign.. so they just play that over and over and neglect their 1v1 games.
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On October 30 2016 07:00 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 06:52 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Phredxor wrote:
Alright now i know what i need to watch. Thanks people.
Back to your arguments! Dark vs Stats game 1 was really good. Meh. It might have been high lvl gameplay but it wasn't really entertaining at all imo Depends on what entertains you. In many Starcraft games I find great entertainment in watching someone trying to crack a seemingly unbreakable wall for a prolonged amount of time, whether they succeed or fail.
Sure, there simply wasn't much going on. I prefer my games with lots of multitasking, engagements, harass, micro, etc.
That game was high lvl in some aspects but lacked quite a bit of what i think is "entertaining" 
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On October 30 2016 07:08 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel like you don't really understand what people say when speaking about korean retirements making the scene less competitive. Not only the absolute top pros at the time matter, the whole talent pool which would train against each other with all the different strengths/weakenesses/ideas/styles, etc matter.
A scene which has Rain, Parting, Jangbi (to name a few toss players) or Effort, Roro, Life, Soulkey is simply more competitive than a scene which barely has a top zerg left. (as an example)
The scene was the most competitive after the Kespa switch, when all the new talent came in and formed the competition.
It wasn't as competitive as early WoL but it was the second most competitive moment, yes.
Don't believe in stuchiu's memes.
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On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life. You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find: Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank None of these were the best of the best either
Those players would still wipe the floor with the others you mentioned. As the above posters said, it's draining players like these out of the training pool/ ladder and the practice they provide rather than their own achievements that has had a detrimental effect on the scene.
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On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:44 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015. when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life. You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find: Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank None of these were the best of the best either
Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
By the way I have actually found 1 player who made Code A this year who wasn't around 4 years ago.
I hereby formally declare Afreeca Freecs DRGling the Korean hope.
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On October 30 2016 07:08 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:06 Charoisaur wrote:
I think there's no point discussing this anymore. I will just enjoy the games from now on. on league of legends no western teams beat a korean one the last 4 years, and there were 3/4 korean teams in the semi final of the world championship best game to see top tier korean talent gaming
Korean teams only ever get eliminated when they come up against other Korean teams. It's fantastic.
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On October 30 2016 07:10 Elentos wrote:
By the way I have actually found 1 player who made Code A this year who wasn't around 4 years ago.
I hereby formally declare Afreeca Freecs DRGling the Korean hope.
Oh yeah, how did we forget DRGling :D.
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On October 30 2016 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:47 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
when Lilbow retired he wasn't a top player anymore
This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now. Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life. You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find: Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank None of these were the best of the best either Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake.
You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
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On October 30 2016 07:10 Elentos wrote:
By the way I have actually found 1 player who made Code A this year who wasn't around 4 years ago.
I hereby formally declare Afreeca Freecs DRGling the Korean hope.
and he even took a map of Bbyong hurr hurr
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On October 30 2016 07:08 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel like you don't really understand what people say when speaking about korean retirements making the scene less competitive. Not only the absolute top pros at the time matter, the whole talent pool which would train against each other with all the different strengths/weakenesses/ideas/styles, etc matter.
A scene which has Rain, Parting, Jangbi (to name a few toss players) or Effort, Roro, Life, Soulkey is simply more competitive than a scene which barely has a top zerg left. (as an example)
The scene was the most competitive after the Kespa switch, when all the new talent came in and formed the competition.
Exactly this, and the foreign talent pool shrunk just as much as the korean talent pool. Obviously those players were not as good as the korean players, but they had equal value to the weaker foreign scene.
I would argue that the korean scene lost a lot more value tbh, even relatively speaking. But yeah i can see where you are coming from.
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On October 30 2016 07:12 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now.
Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life. You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find: Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank None of these were the best of the best either Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake. You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
gj picking the least accomplished player out of the listed koreans against the most accomplished player out of the listed foreigners. but lilbow got his results in a region-locked tournament so I believe they are quite even.
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On October 30 2016 07:00 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:55 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 30 2016 06:49 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:46 Phredxor wrote:
Wtf is this thread. I assume there were no good games since everyone is back to arguing about other shit. TLO started some controversy by tweeting that the skill level hasn't gone down and foreigners just magically got better. Well technically Thorin tweeted about foreigners winning Bo3 isn't anything new and isn't that impressive to which Smix replied that ByuN is the rank 1 player in the world and skill level has gone up to which Stuchiu replied that wasn't true and 2013 Innovation was better than 2016 Byun is. That's when TLO jumped in and said skill level has gone up but didn't specify that magic was the cause 2013 INno isn't better than 2016 ByuN since otherwise 2016 INno would crush ByuN, it's not like he dropped in skill, he just couldn't keep up x).
I choose not to believe that.
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On October 30 2016 07:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:12 Phredxor wrote:On October 30 2016 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life. You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find: Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank None of these were the best of the best either Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake. You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow? gj picking the least accomplished player out of the listed koreans against the most accomplished player out of the listed foreigners. but lilbow got his results in a region-locked tournament so I believe they are quite even.
You're the one who said he was much more accomplished than Lilbow, not me. I picked the most obvious example, but I wouldn't say Heart or Fantasy accomplished more either out of the ones you listed.
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On October 30 2016 07:10 Elentos wrote:
By the way I have actually found 1 player who made Code A this year who wasn't around 4 years ago.
I hereby formally declare Afreeca Freecs DRGling the Korean hope.
I was so sad when i read that Zoun retired 
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what will happen first?
will the Chicago Cubs win the world series.. or will a non Korean take BlizzCon?
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On October 30 2016 07:12 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:07 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 07:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 07:00 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 30 2016 06:53 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:51 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:50 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
This. Just because Lilbow went to Blizzcon doesn't mean he was the best foreigner of 2015.........luckiest more like it. I've said before many times that the WCS points system isn't the best way to rank players, evidenced by some players who should be at Blizzcon but aren't right now.
Well Taeja was also not the best Korean whe he stopped and it doesn't even matter. I am just saying that just as many foreigners stopped playing sc2 as koreans and that they also lack new blood. the foreigners who retired weren't high level except Stephano, Naniwa Lucifron, Vortix,QXC, HuK, Grubby, Hasuobs, Lilbow, Firecake When he says high-level I think he means proper Top-tier, as in players who went toe-to-toe with Koreans back in the day. All of these players did that agreed. Lilbow really went toe-to-toe with Life. You realise Life is the best Zerg ever in this game right? The players I listed could win from many koreans You talk about the retirements but when I search for retires on this site I find: Golden Seed Sacscri Shine Heart Supernova Fantasy Crank None of these were the best of the best either Seed is a GSL winner. Supernova got like 9 consecutive Code S. Sacscri won a DH, Fantasy qualified for blizzcon, Heart got to the finals of WCS NA, Golden had multiple high placings in WCS europe. they are much more accomplished, than a Hasuobs, Lilbow, qxc or Firecake. You really think Golden is more accomplished than Lilbow?
Depends on what we consider accomplished is? Being a consistently high level player, or a flash in the pan and win a single tournament?
I know winning tournaments seem to be the be all and end all for rankings, but IMO not so much. For example, Neeb won nothing in WCS Circuit this year while Drogo won a Dreamhack. Who's the better player? ( I'm talking about WCS circuit, so purposely leaving out Kespa Cup.)
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On October 30 2016 07:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 07:10 Elentos wrote:
By the way I have actually found 1 player who made Code A this year who wasn't around 4 years ago.
I hereby formally declare Afreeca Freecs DRGling the Korean hope. I was so sad when i read that Zoun retired
I also remember someone saying DRGling is actually not super committed to SC2 and more of a practice partner, and that he plays (and is good at) a lot of different games. So maybe he'll go to Overwatch too.
I already miss Zoun. He was so cute.
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On October 30 2016 06:30 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Solid logic. It not like Proleague themselves stated lack of sponsors and matchfixing was the reason for it stopping. It's not like the korean scene was shrinking years before the new WCS changes of 2016. The fact is Blizzard gave a lot of money to Korea this year and earlier years. And next year they will still fund GSL. This argument that they deliberately killed it is absurd and only based on your own rage that you want to channel somewhere so you choose Blizzard as a scapegoat.
I am not aware of the facts surround funding. But is it the case that since 2013, Blizzard have 100% funded the prize pools for GSL/SSL? I say 2012 because this is when GSL started losing its main sponsors (i.e. Intel, Ericsson, LG, Pepsi, Hot6ix). And in 2010/11/12, were Blizzard contributing anything to the prize pool for GSL?
I do wonder whether Blizzard forced the GSL to give up its independent sponsors or rather Blizzard stepped in to save the GSL when it started losing its sponsors.
On October 30 2016 06:32 Musicus wrote:
I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world.
But in 2012, we had 9 established teams with team houses. Is there really the financial backing for this to happen again? I get the impression there was more independent money being pumped into the Korean sc2 scene in the early years that dried up when there was no return on investment. Then after that, KeSPA teams came along and saved the day with their existing sponsorships from the broodwar era. Who will save the day this time?
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On October 30 2016 07:01 Cricketer12 wrote:
anyone else want to explain to mean how in the actual fuck showtime 2-0'd ByuN?
Byun just practices way too many ladder games which made him bad. Innovation 2013 would crush showtime easily.
Also
to be fair to byun, the collapse of his kespa team/removal of kespa salary probably disincentivized him from practicing for this 500k tourney, also ofc, jet lag
And remember this wasn't a bo5 so probably just luck.
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EPT
