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On October 30 2016 06:08 Makro wrote:
holy shit this thread went deep, really deep
I blame the TY vs Elazer series, it ended too fast
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On October 30 2016 06:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:00 Probe1 wrote:On October 30 2016 05:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 05:07 Hider wrote:
That said, I had hoped for around 40K viewers for Sc2. And 100K+ at the finals. The problem with sc2 is that nobody ever really tried to build the players as what i call "star players". Who is at fault? Everybody tbh, the players, the teams, tournaments, blizzard. I bet you saw the videos we got for this blizzcon? If we had stuff like that from the beginning on a regular basis people would have been more interested in all kinds of players (not that that would be enough, but you get the point) That is a really, really incorrect statement objectively. From TLO to NesTea to Snute to Byun, every single month someone is being built up to be the star. You can say "I'd do it differently" and that's fine but you are not acknowledging something that is constantly happening every single week and it's pretty ridic. I probably phrased that in the worst possible way. What i mean is that the scene as a whole didn't do a good job at making people care for the players overall. Korean players especially, it is hard to care for players you don't even understand (in general, i am talking about the average guy here) There wasn't / isn't a lot of content outside of the games that makes you wanna be a fan of player x, other esports scene do this better, other esports scenes also have players who have more charisma, etc. That is hugely important. There is a reason why stephano was/is such a big fan favorite, the lvl of play is only one part.
You are right on the money about Stephanos victories being only one facet of his popularity. He was well publicized as the hope of both Zerg and foreigners. What would he do? Would he beat Koreans?
Look at the front page of TL. You'll see what you've seen for the last decade. Player spotlights making sure everyone knows these guys names and where they came from. And Blizzards own videos which have been quite popular.
You are right - those same Blizzard videos I just mentioned are often commented with "Wow I wish they did this earlier". But I still have to say, you can call it ineffective for you personally but damn if thousands of dollars and man hours haven't been spent on this topic.
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On October 30 2016 06:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:56 TBO wrote:On October 30 2016 05:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
you have to spend a certain # of hours just to maintain your skill level. less and less players are willing to put in that kind of time. I honestly don't know the numbers and I am lazy, but as you claim that, can you please compare the amount of ladder games played in GM in 2016 with 2011/2012 etc? obviously ladder games are not everything but should give a good indication. then you can also check average time per match (extrapolate from tournament matches, should be close enough). If we have those numbers then arguments have an actual base rather than just writing words. i don't have a position in this discussion about whether or not the current skill level at the top of the game is better or worse... i have my own scrub level speculations and that's it. my position, however, is that when the prize money is $0 and 0 companies are in the scene the skill level declines. now, if we choke off 25% of the prize money.. will skill decline then? i don't know.. that's a tough question.
There was more prize money in in Korea this year than last year. And there was still WESG, HSC, KeSPA CuP, IEM Korea and for some also BlizzCon to keep them motivated after GSL/SSL and SPL ended.
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On October 30 2016 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:05 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 06:00 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 05:55 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:51 Ej_ wrote:
Korean progamers to Blizzard: the game is too hard now.
Couch coaches and "experts": it's easier than it used to be. Obviously the game was the hardest when broken players like Mvp and Taeja were at the top. No player can ever be better than Mvp unless he wins 5 GSLs with one arm. Players making more mistakes does mean they are worse than the players in the past and not that the game is harder or that WoL and HotS were just figured out. So annoying :/. 30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play in has no affect on the overall skill-level. Foreigners have just doubled their skill level in the span of a year. foreigners beating koreans doesn't mean koreans got worse but that foreigners got magically better. So annoying :/. - Zest clearly outclassing Neeb because of a 2-1 win in a bo3 series. - The skill gap hasn't closed. Top 20 in the world are still all koreans. - MVP was a better player in 2011 than he is today. - koreans get worse when they practiceso annoying That is what i call nitpicking and presenting actual arguments in the most one sided, ridiculous way possible just because you wanna be right. (which is ironically basically the thing you say Thorin/Stuchiu re doing, not that i agree with 100% of the things they say) Well whatever, apparently as long as the game is played players always get more skilled no matter what 
Well GL explaining to me what's wrong with that because those are obvious implications of comments he has made today (besides the skill gap hasn't closed. he didn't say that today - but he said he would never believe the skill gap was narrowing until foreigners won a bo5 in an offline tournament - and technically speaking. that hasn't happened yet).
Also nothing wrong with stating opinions. Problem with Thorin is that he often times has no solid reasons/arguments behind it.
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On October 30 2016 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:08 Makro wrote:
holy shit this thread went deep, really deep I blame the TY vs Elazer series, it ended too fast
Haha, I agree.
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On October 30 2016 06:09 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 TBO wrote:On October 30 2016 05:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
you have to spend a certain # of hours just to maintain your skill level. less and less players are willing to put in that kind of time. I honestly don't know the numbers and I am lazy, but as you claim that, can you please compare the amount of ladder games played in GM in 2016 with 2011/2012 etc? obviously ladder games are not everything but should give a good indication. then you can also check average time per match (extrapolate from tournament matches, should be close enough). If we have those numbers then arguments have an actual base rather than just writing words. i don't have a position in this discussion about whether or not the current skill level at the top of the game is better or worse... i have my own scrub level speculations and that's it. my position, however, is that when the prize money is $0 and 0 companies are in the scene the skill level will decline. now, if we choke off 25% of the prize money.. will skill decline then? i don't know.. that's a tough question. can definitely agree with the $0 statement, for the other one... first we'd need to establish some way to measure that and thats going to be hard. You can go by average screens per minute, reaction times, unspent minerals etc... but finding a formula to measure sc2 skill is going to be tough as it's more than just a few numbers. And comparing Lotv with hots is going to be very hard on top of that. Generally I think it is a sensible theory that if someone played the game fulltime for 6 years he is going to be better than he was than he played for 4 years. What the future might bring now with kespa teams gone is uncertain but for the current blizzcon that should not have a big effect , aside from the psychological burden on the players maybe, but their skill just didn't magically vanish with proleague.
these are all good points and amplify what i say in the final line about "that's a tough question"
and skill does not "insta vanish" that is for sure. it declines incrementally over time.
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On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 05:36 Musicus wrote:
Basically I agree with TLO.
garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw.
Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion.
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On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion.
It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do.
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On October 30 2016 06:06 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:46 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. The average HOTS muta/bling game wasn't as multitask-based as you might think. After it was figured out, it was actually relatively passive until terran hit critical mass. You definitely did not see attacks at 3-4 fronts throughout most of the game. Protoss is infinitely harder than it was in HotS and while that may not seem obvious as a spectator, just playing the game makes that very apparent. You could argue Protoss players "looked" better back then. But ofc they looked better when photon overcharge was on the fucking Nexus, and you could basically just make colossi and storm and win almost any PvT that went past 12 minutes. Or PvZ where you could just do anything and win. Protoss players nowadays look a lot sloppier, but that's because it's a sloppier game. As a protoss player I can assure you that every single matchup is harder in LotV than HotS.
I don't think a protoss player who played against Maru's TvP in HotS would say it's now harder in LotV.
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On October 30 2016 06:08 Kovzirg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. You wouldn't listen to anything TLO says because he doesn't know anything in a screen shot of stuchiu and TLO in an argument about the subject we are currently discussing. So how do I make that conclusion? By being aware of the context of statements made in a series of comments. So I continue the line of inquiry, why would you consider stuchiu probably a bronze league scrub better at actually analyzing gameplay than TLO regardless of his fall from the top tier.
TLO never fell from top-tier, you have to be top-tier for that to happen. To be honest I'd say there opinion on analysis is equal seeing as they both do the same thing, which is spectate games.
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as far as measuring skill goes.. what i decided to do was ask Avilo. and he says Terran takes much more skill than Protoss and Zerg. as a terran diamond leaguer i 100% agree. so i think that pretty much settles it and we can now close the thread.
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On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do.
they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that.
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On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do.
But that's my point, asking the above players to comment on their own play or the Korean scenes play isn't going to really reveal anything. They're still not gonna hang anyone out to dry. Would be bad PR.
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On October 30 2016 06:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:06 blooblooblahblah wrote:On October 30 2016 05:46 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. The average HOTS muta/bling game wasn't as multitask-based as you might think. After it was figured out, it was actually relatively passive until terran hit critical mass. You definitely did not see attacks at 3-4 fronts throughout most of the game. Protoss is infinitely harder than it was in HotS and while that may not seem obvious as a spectator, just playing the game makes that very apparent. You could argue Protoss players "looked" better back then. But ofc they looked better when photon overcharge was on the fucking Nexus, and you could basically just make colossi and storm and win almost any PvT that went past 12 minutes. Or PvZ where you could just do anything and win. Protoss players nowadays look a lot sloppier, but that's because it's a sloppier game. As a protoss player I can assure you that every single matchup is harder in LotV than HotS. I don't think a protoss player who played against Maru's TvP in HotS would say it's now harder in LotV.
Those wm drops vs Classic though. :D
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I think you have to be pretty delusional to think that this 30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality had no effect on the level of play.
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On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion.
The issue is that the koreans may say yes becasue they think of it as a relative-question. Most reasonable people would never think other people would think they actually got worse absolutely speaking.
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On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that.
Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against your opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think.
let's all just agree to disagree then
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On October 30 2016 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:08 Makro wrote:
holy shit this thread went deep, really deep I blame the TY vs Elazer series, it ended too fast
that gave me a good opportunity to resume my civ 6 game
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On October 30 2016 06:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:06 blooblooblahblah wrote:On October 30 2016 05:46 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. The average HOTS muta/bling game wasn't as multitask-based as you might think. After it was figured out, it was actually relatively passive until terran hit critical mass. You definitely did not see attacks at 3-4 fronts throughout most of the game. Protoss is infinitely harder than it was in HotS and while that may not seem obvious as a spectator, just playing the game makes that very apparent. You could argue Protoss players "looked" better back then. But ofc they looked better when photon overcharge was on the fucking Nexus, and you could basically just make colossi and storm and win almost any PvT that went past 12 minutes. Or PvZ where you could just do anything and win. Protoss players nowadays look a lot sloppier, but that's because it's a sloppier game. As a protoss player I can assure you that every single matchup is harder in LotV than HotS. I don't think a protoss player who played against Maru's TvP in HotS would say it's now harder in LotV.
just like in TvZ you also seem to have a very off perception of how actionpacked that matchup was. Even Maru played alot more passive in most of his TvPs as the matchup developed throughout HOTS:
There is a lot more multitasking in most TvP's today than in Maru's TvPs in 2015.
And all protoss did back then was defending. Right now both sides are harassing/attacking each other.
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On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then
it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion.
this 30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality
is a fact.
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EPT
