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On October 30 2016 06:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:30 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:25 showstealer1829 wrote:
WCS/Blizzard made Foreigners "competitive" by killing the Korean scene
Any other argument is bullshit. Oh please, enlighten us. Was it the banning from tournaments most of them never went to, or was it the reduction of Korean leagues from 6 to 4 which was possibly a step to make sure said leagues would continue at all? both. a lot of koreans really valued it to play in front of foreign crowds. TB said something like this on reddit.
Many of them never even got the chance as long as Proleague existed.
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Good to see people making up stuff again, please point out where I said he wasn't a pro?
What I said was that he is nowhere near being a Top-tier foreigner, contrary to what people on here would have you believe. I've looked through his 2016 results and I would conclude by being bold and saying that for all the talk we hear about him he is quite overrated.
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On October 30 2016 06:33 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:32 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:30 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:25 showstealer1829 wrote:
WCS/Blizzard made Foreigners "competitive" by killing the Korean scene
Any other argument is bullshit. Oh please, enlighten us. Was it the banning from tournaments most of them never went to, or was it the reduction of Korean leagues from 6 to 4 which was possibly a step to make sure said leagues would continue at all? both. a lot of koreans really valued it to play in front of foreign crowds. TB said something like this on reddit. Many of them never even got the chance as long as Proleague existed.
Most didn't play often in foreign tournaments but occasionally they all played there.
herO was the IEM prince despite being one of the top PL players
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On October 30 2016 06:32 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:28 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:
and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. Well That's because they kinda lost that thing they got paid their salaries to play in Sure that sucks, just saying there was no lack of tournaments to play in in recent months, it's more than ever this year actually. In 2012 they also survived without KeSPA salaries, and people are arguing that they were better back then, than they are now. I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world.
I'm pretty sure nobody is arguing about people in 2012 being better. I think especially Stuchiu is referring mostly to peak HotS play. So after the KeSPA switch.
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On October 30 2016 06:32 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:
[quote]
So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then I mean, he has point there though, I wouldn't expect a Korean to necessarily honestly answer me if I asked him if all his friends suck now or the game is just too hard. That said, repeatedly in community feedbacks, DK has said Koreans told him the game was too hard now (which nothing really was done about). I just don't think it's so clear cut. A lot of people improved, a bunch got worse, I'm sure there are some where nothing's changed. But because the mid and low levels of the Korean scene are pretty much dissolving recently, I think long term it's going down at least for Korea. The problem with this "korean say it's too hard" is that it never was defined what that actually means. Hard in what way? Mechanically? Some things being too impactful (for example worker harass) so it's too hard to be consistent, or whatever else you can come up with. I don't think it is actually clear what the koreans mean at this point tbh. It could mean a lot of things tbh. From the few things Dayvie said in the updates, it's kinda a bit of everything. Sometimes we got "harass options like tankivacs and liberators are too strong", sometimes we got things like "Zerg is too hard mechanically at the highest level"
I always thought Koreans meant that its too hard as in too unforgiveable (one mistake = GG). But David Kim interpreted it in the way that fitted what Blizzard wanted to do with the game (make it easier in some ways) and used that comment as a way to defend testing removing inject larva.
That said, there is no way to deny that LOTV has gotten ALOT harder - especially if you compare it to WOL.
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On October 30 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:
[quote]
So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact. This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for. Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea. I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. there have been pretty reliable reports that koreans are a lot less motivated this year and are playing a lot of LoL and Overwatch.
Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc...
We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players.
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On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact. This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for. Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea. I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want.
Lol using invite-only HSC as support to say they had tournaments to play in? Yea maybe if you were invited, for the other 20-30 or so......not so much.
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On October 30 2016 06:32 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:
[quote]
So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then I mean, he has point there though, I wouldn't expect a Korean to necessarily honestly answer me if I asked him if all his friends suck now or the game is just too hard. That said, repeatedly in community feedbacks, DK has said Koreans told him the game was too hard now (which nothing really was done about). I just don't think it's so clear cut. A lot of people improved, a bunch got worse, I'm sure there are some where nothing's changed. But because the mid and low levels of the Korean scene are pretty much dissolving recently, I think long term it's going down at least for Korea. The problem with this "korean say it's too hard" is that it never was defined what that actually means. Hard in what way? Mechanically? Some things being too impactful (for example worker harass) so it's too hard to be consistent, or whatever else you can come up with. I don't think it is actually clear what the koreans mean at this point tbh. It could mean a lot of things tbh. From the few things Dayvie said in the updates, it's kinda a bit of everything. Sometimes we got "harass options like tankivacs and liberators are too strong", sometimes we got things like "Zerg is too hard mechanically at the highest level"
Yeah i am just saying it's not really well defined at this point and thus hard to use as an argument imo. Like for example: in sc2 in general it is hard to come back from a simple mistake like looking away for a split second and losing X workers because of that. Some might say that's "hard" and you have to become better, other would say the game is too unforgiving and there should be mechanics in the game which make it "easier" for the pros in that aspect.
Etc.
On October 30 2016 06:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:32 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
And what part of my post said that? 2/10
What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then I mean, he has point there though, I wouldn't expect a Korean to necessarily honestly answer me if I asked him if all his friends suck now or the game is just too hard. That said, repeatedly in community feedbacks, DK has said Koreans told him the game was too hard now (which nothing really was done about). I just don't think it's so clear cut. A lot of people improved, a bunch got worse, I'm sure there are some where nothing's changed. But because the mid and low levels of the Korean scene are pretty much dissolving recently, I think long term it's going down at least for Korea. The problem with this "korean say it's too hard" is that it never was defined what that actually means. Hard in what way? Mechanically? Some things being too impactful (for example worker harass) so it's too hard to be consistent, or whatever else you can come up with. I don't think it is actually clear what the koreans mean at this point tbh. It could mean a lot of things tbh. From the few things Dayvie said in the updates, it's kinda a bit of everything. Sometimes we got "harass options like tankivacs and liberators are too strong", sometimes we got things like "Zerg is too hard mechanically at the highest level" I always thought Koreans meant that its too hard as in too unforgiveable (one mistake = GG). But David Kim interpreted it in the way that fitted what Blizzard wanted to do with the game (make it easier in some ways) and used that comment as a way to defend testing removing inject larva. That said, there is no way to deny that LOTV has gotten ALOT harder - especially if you compare it to WOL.
I see we interprete it the same way 
I actually don't believe that LOTV got a lot "harder" (again what does that mean) compared to Hots for example. People say it all the time but i never read a good argument there either tbh
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On October 30 2016 06:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then I mean, he has point there though, I wouldn't expect a Korean to necessarily honestly answer me if I asked him if all his friends suck now or the game is just too hard. That said, repeatedly in community feedbacks, DK has said Koreans told him the game was too hard now (which nothing really was done about). I just don't think it's so clear cut. A lot of people improved, a bunch got worse, I'm sure there are some where nothing's changed. But because the mid and low levels of the Korean scene are pretty much dissolving recently, I think long term it's going down at least for Korea. The problem with this "korean say it's too hard" is that it never was defined what that actually means. Hard in what way? Mechanically? Some things being too impactful (for example worker harass) so it's too hard to be consistent, or whatever else you can come up with. I don't think it is actually clear what the koreans mean at this point tbh. It could mean a lot of things tbh.
lalush spoke about it, they say hard because it's more micro heavy where it's harder to be constant in that area as opposed to being macro heavy
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On October 30 2016 06:33 Biscuittzz wrote:
Good to see people making up stuff again, please point out where I said he wasn't a pro?
What I said was that he is nowhere near being a Top-tier foreigner, contrary to what people on here would have you believe. I've looked through his 2016 results and I would conclude by being bold and saying that for all the talk we hear about him he is quite overrated.
No you said
To be honest I'd say there opinion on analysis is equal seeing as they both do the same thing, which is spectate games.
What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself.
You didn't say he was overrated, you said he wasn't even involved in high level play.
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On October 30 2016 06:28 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:
and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. Well That's because they kinda lost that thing they got paid their salaries to play in
His argument is so weak haha.
"Hey now you have all the time in the world to sit at home and watch TV, all you had to do was lose your job first"
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On October 30 2016 06:35 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:
[quote]
So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact. This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for. Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea. I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. Lol using invite-only HSC as support to say they had tournaments to play in? Yea maybe if you were invited, for the other 20-30 or so......not so much.
Once again, as with the lack of new blood, it's the same for foreign players. You can scratch HSC of that list if you want, but then also scratch it for foreigners.
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On October 30 2016 06:37 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:35 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
And what part of my post said that? 2/10
What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact. This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for. Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea. I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. Lol using invite-only HSC as support to say they had tournaments to play in? Yea maybe if you were invited, for the other 20-30 or so......not so much. Once again, as with the lack of new blood, it's the same for foreign players. You can scratch HSC of that list if you want, but then also scratch it for foreigners.
even if you scratch that foreigners still had MUCH more tournaments to play in. hell, if they wanted they could have even played in GSL as the region-lock only worked one way
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On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
And what part of my post said that? 2/10
What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact. This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for. Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea. I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. there have been pretty reliable reports that koreans are a lot less motivated this year and are playing a lot of LoL and Overwatch. Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc... We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players.
Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional
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On October 30 2016 06:37 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:33 Biscuittzz wrote:
Good to see people making up stuff again, please point out where I said he wasn't a pro?
What I said was that he is nowhere near being a Top-tier foreigner, contrary to what people on here would have you believe. I've looked through his 2016 results and I would conclude by being bold and saying that for all the talk we hear about him he is quite overrated. No you said Show nested quote +To be honest I'd say there opinion on analysis is equal seeing as they both do the same thing, which is spectate games. Show nested quote +What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. You didn't say he was overrated, you said he wasn't even involved in high level play.
I only said he was overrated in the post you just quoted, not the one before that.
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On October 30 2016 06:39 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:37 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:35 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:[quote] But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact. This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for. Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea. I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. Lol using invite-only HSC as support to say they had tournaments to play in? Yea maybe if you were invited, for the other 20-30 or so......not so much. Once again, as with the lack of new blood, it's the same for foreign players. You can scratch HSC of that list if you want, but then also scratch it for foreigners. even if you scratch that foreigners still had MUCH more tournaments to play in. hell, if they wanted they could have even played in GSL as the region-lock only worked one way
I agree that 4 individual leagues aren't enough, but they still had SPL and had to play a ton, even if just as practice partners and now towards the end of year with KeSPA Cup, WESG, IEM Korea, BlizzCon, online cups, they have just as much as foreigners to play in.
And nobody so far had anything to say about just as many foreign players switching to other games, or the fact that Korea had more prize money this year than last year.
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On October 30 2016 06:40 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:37 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 30 2016 06:33 Biscuittzz wrote:
Good to see people making up stuff again, please point out where I said he wasn't a pro?
What I said was that he is nowhere near being a Top-tier foreigner, contrary to what people on here would have you believe. I've looked through his 2016 results and I would conclude by being bold and saying that for all the talk we hear about him he is quite overrated. No you said To be honest I'd say there opinion on analysis is equal seeing as they both do the same thing, which is spectate games. What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. You didn't say he was overrated, you said he wasn't even involved in high level play. I only said he was overrated in the post you just quoted, not the one before that.
You called him a "mid-tier GM". So yeah, you said he's not a pro.
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On October 30 2016 06:36 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:
[quote]
So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then I mean, he has point there though, I wouldn't expect a Korean to necessarily honestly answer me if I asked him if all his friends suck now or the game is just too hard. That said, repeatedly in community feedbacks, DK has said Koreans told him the game was too hard now (which nothing really was done about). I just don't think it's so clear cut. A lot of people improved, a bunch got worse, I'm sure there are some where nothing's changed. But because the mid and low levels of the Korean scene are pretty much dissolving recently, I think long term it's going down at least for Korea. The problem with this "korean say it's too hard" is that it never was defined what that actually means. Hard in what way? Mechanically? Some things being too impactful (for example worker harass) so it's too hard to be consistent, or whatever else you can come up with. I don't think it is actually clear what the koreans mean at this point tbh. It could mean a lot of things tbh. lalush spoke about it, they say hard because it's more micro heavy where it's harder to be constant in that area as opposed to being macro heavy
Yeah so basically it's about the game being too unforgiving in that area. Cost effectiveness beign the most important part, etc
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On October 30 2016 06:39 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:35 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:[quote] But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact. This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for. Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea. I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. there have been pretty reliable reports that koreans are a lot less motivated this year and are playing a lot of LoL and Overwatch. Some are and they are switching to other games, some are not and they are playing in BlizzCon, WESG, Olimoleauge, IEM, HSC, KungFu Cup etc... We had just as many foreigners switching to other games as Heroes, Dota 2 or Overwatch (grubby, lilbow, Hasu, Babyknight...). The list is most likely longer than the one for Korean players. Because losing Grubby is equatable to losing Taeja? Delusional
Taeja stopped playing, because he wanted to stop playing plus his hands were hurting? He has been thinking about stopping for a long time. Lilbow was the best foreigner of 2015, so for the foreign scene that was probably a bigger loss than Taeja for the koren scene, since he was not the best Korean of 2015.
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Just created my first ever quote to celebrate this special day.
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