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No, saying something that seems to go against the opinion of the majority of posters on here could be construed as a lie.
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On October 30 2016 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:I think you have to be pretty delusional to think that this Show nested quote +30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality had no effect on the level of play.
ya that's a good point. what "new blood" will want to dedicate their lives to a game with no future and a prize possibility going no where but down.
right now, i guess its debatable if the skill is going up or down.. be interesting in 2020 to see BLizzard and its agents attempt to claim SC2 skill level is rising when every one is a part time player.
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On October 30 2016 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:I think you have to be pretty delusional to think that this Show nested quote +30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality had no effect on the level of play.
Who said it didn't?
Now, how do you get from that to the same people getting worse when they practice on a daily basis?
Also please go and find a VOD from 2011 where you qualtiatively analyze MVP's insane mechanics and explain to us how much better he was back.
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On October 30 2016 06:21 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 06:08 Makro wrote:
holy shit this thread went deep, really deep I blame the TY vs Elazer series, it ended too fast that gave me a good opportunity to resume my civ 6 game
Is it good? Or should i rather wait till the ultimate edition comes out with all the addons, etc (honestly that's probably what i will do anyway  )
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On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 05:36 Musicus wrote:
Basically I agree with TLO.
garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then
I mean, he has point there though, I wouldn't expect a Korean to necessarily honestly answer me if I asked him if all his friends suck now or the game is just too hard. That said, repeatedly in community feedbacks, DK has said Koreans told him the game was too hard now (which nothing really was done about).
I just don't think it's so clear cut. A lot of people improved, a bunch got worse, I'm sure there are some where nothing's changed. But because the mid and low levels of the Korean scene are pretty much dissolving recently, I think long term it's going down at least for Korea.
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WCS/Blizzard made Foreigners "competitive" by killing the Korean scene
Any other argument is bullshit.
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On October 30 2016 06:16 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:08 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. You wouldn't listen to anything TLO says because he doesn't know anything in a screen shot of stuchiu and TLO in an argument about the subject we are currently discussing. So how do I make that conclusion? By being aware of the context of statements made in a series of comments. So I continue the line of inquiry, why would you consider stuchiu probably a bronze league scrub better at actually analyzing gameplay than TLO regardless of his fall from the top tier. TLO never fell from top-tier, you have to be top-tier for that to happen. To be honest I'd say there opinion on analysis is equal seeing as they both do the same thing, which is spectate games.
TLO isn't the best foreigner or anything but I'm looking through his aligulac history and really wondering where you got the idea that he isn't like, ya know, a pro who is extremely fucking good at the game. Saying he's just a spectator is pretty ridiculous
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On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact.
This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for.
Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea.
I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want.
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didn't TLO play as Random for a while and beat some top Europeans doing that?
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On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:
and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want.
Well
That's because they kinda lost that thing they got paid their salaries to play in
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On October 30 2016 06:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:21 Makro wrote:On October 30 2016 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 06:08 Makro wrote:
holy shit this thread went deep, really deep I blame the TY vs Elazer series, it ended too fast that gave me a good opportunity to resume my civ 6 game Is it good? Or should i rather wait till the ultimate edition comes out with all the addons, etc (honestly that's probably what i will do anyway )
yea, wait before a bundle with some addons but even if its actual form it's worth
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On October 30 2016 06:25 showstealer1829 wrote:
WCS/Blizzard made Foreigners "competitive" by killing the Korean scene
Any other argument is bullshit.
I anything killed the korean scene, it's the lack of sc2 fans in korea and just the fact that the game is not very populer over there.
Still I don't consider the Korean scene as dead.
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On October 30 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then I mean, he has point there though, I wouldn't expect a Korean to necessarily honestly answer me if I asked him if all his friends suck now or the game is just too hard. That said, repeatedly in community feedbacks, DK has said Koreans told him the game was too hard now (which nothing really was done about). I just don't think it's so clear cut. A lot of people improved, a bunch got worse, I'm sure there are some where nothing's changed. But because the mid and low levels of the Korean scene are pretty much dissolving recently, I think long term it's going down at least for Korea.
The problem with this "korean say it's too hard" is that it never was defined what that actually means. Hard in what way? Mechanically? Some things being too impactful (for example worker harass) so it's too hard to be consistent, or whatever else you can come up with. I don't think it is actually clear what the koreans mean at this point tbh.
It could mean a lot of things tbh.
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On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:21 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then it's opinions vs facts. what people think is an opinion. this "30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play. also korean teams closing being a big hit to their mentality" is a fact. This is not a fact, since even after GSL, SSL and SPL ended, they still had WESG, KeSPA Cup, HSC, IEM Korea and some even BlizzCon to prepare for. Also while I agree with the lack of new players being a problem, that's a global problem and does not only affect Korea. I also absolutely think Korea needs more tournaments spread out over the year, but especially most recently they had a ton to play in and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want.
there have been pretty reliable reports that koreans are a lot less motivated this year and are playing a lot of LoL and Overwatch.
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On October 30 2016 06:25 showstealer1829 wrote:
WCS/Blizzard made Foreigners "competitive" by killing the Korean scene
Any other argument is bullshit.
Oh please, enlighten us. Was it the banning from tournaments most of them never went to, or was it the reduction of Korean leagues from 6 to 4 which was possibly a step to make sure said leagues would continue at all? Which one killed it?
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On October 30 2016 06:25 showstealer1829 wrote:
WCS/Blizzard made Foreigners "competitive" by killing the Korean scene
Any other argument is bullshit.
Solid logic. It not like Proleague themselves stated lack of sponsors and matchfixing was the reason for it stopping. It's not like the korean scene was shrinking years before the new WCS changes of 2016. The fact is Blizzard gave a lot of money to Korea this year and earlier years. And next year they will still fund GSL. This argument that they deliberately killed it is absurd and only based on your own rage that you want to channel somewhere so you choose Blizzard as a scapegoat.
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On October 30 2016 06:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:On October 30 2016 06:20 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 06:14 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 06:13 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:03 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:
[quote]
Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them). Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then? Edit: He will ask them btw. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/792472356434305024 Yea because geting players to admit that they're worse is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. When this year has TLO played against Koreans? I know he's played a fair few foreigners. I still watch his series vs MVP when he said that he could win. Fine line between optimism and delusion. It's about the Korean scene in general, not just them. Since you don't believe TLO, since he doesn not compete against Koreans, well TY, Dark and Zest do. they would never admit they are only looking good now because the skill level went down even if they'd think that. Okay, so if they were to say something that would go against you opinion it would obviously be a lie. Awesome, having a discussion here makes no sense I think. let's all just agree to disagree then I mean, he has point there though, I wouldn't expect a Korean to necessarily honestly answer me if I asked him if all his friends suck now or the game is just too hard. That said, repeatedly in community feedbacks, DK has said Koreans told him the game was too hard now (which nothing really was done about). I just don't think it's so clear cut. A lot of people improved, a bunch got worse, I'm sure there are some where nothing's changed. But because the mid and low levels of the Korean scene are pretty much dissolving recently, I think long term it's going down at least for Korea. The problem with this "korean say it's too hard" is that it never was defined what that actually means. Hard in what way? Mechanically? Some things being too impactful (for example worker harass) so it's too hard to be consistent, or whatever else you can come up with. I don't think it is actually clear what the koreans mean at this point tbh. It could mean a lot of things tbh.
From the few things Dayvie said in the updates, it's kinda a bit of everything. Sometimes we got "harass options like tankivacs and liberators are too strong", sometimes we got things like "Zerg is too hard mechanically at the highest level"
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On October 30 2016 06:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:16 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 06:08 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself. You wouldn't listen to anything TLO says because he doesn't know anything in a screen shot of stuchiu and TLO in an argument about the subject we are currently discussing. So how do I make that conclusion? By being aware of the context of statements made in a series of comments. So I continue the line of inquiry, why would you consider stuchiu probably a bronze league scrub better at actually analyzing gameplay than TLO regardless of his fall from the top tier. TLO never fell from top-tier, you have to be top-tier for that to happen. To be honest I'd say there opinion on analysis is equal seeing as they both do the same thing, which is spectate games. TLO isn't the best foreigner or anything but I'm looking through his aligulac history and really wondering where you got the idea that he isn't like, ya know, a pro who is extremely fucking good at the game. Saying he's just a spectator is pretty ridiculous
Apparently TLO isn't better at analyzing games/identifying skill than your average spectator. That's the obvious implication of his comment.
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On October 30 2016 06:28 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:27 Musicus wrote:
and now they are even free to play in as many online cups as they want. Well That's because they kinda lost that thing they got paid their salaries to play in
Sure that sucks, just saying there was no lack of tournaments to play in in recent months, it's more than ever this year actually.
In 2012 they also survived without KeSPA salaries, and people are arguing that they were better back then, than they are now.
I think 2017 will look a lot like 2012, and don't think that's the end of the world.
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On October 30 2016 06:30 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:25 showstealer1829 wrote:
WCS/Blizzard made Foreigners "competitive" by killing the Korean scene
Any other argument is bullshit. Oh please, enlighten us. Was it the banning from tournaments most of them never went to, or was it the reduction of Korean leagues from 6 to 4 which was possibly a step to make sure said leagues would continue at all?
both. a lot of koreans really valued it to play in front of foreign crowds. TB said something like this on reddit.
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EPT
