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On October 30 2016 05:56 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
you have to spend a certain # of hours just to maintain your skill level. less and less players are willing to put in that kind of time. I honestly don't know the numbers and I am lazy, but as you claim that, can you please compare the amount of ladder games played in GM in 2016 with 2011/2012 etc? obviously ladder games are not everything but should give a good indication. then you can also check average time per match (extrapolate from tournament matches, should be close enough). If we have those numbers then arguments have an actual base rather than just writing words.
ladder games mean nothing as most korean pros mainly play custom games.
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On October 30 2016 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:41 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 05:36 Musicus wrote:
Basically I agree with TLO.
Just looking at the following tweet correspondance, his ignorance is actually disturbing. He presents no arguments, no data, no qualitative analysis. Just "No your wrong TLO, I am right". It's just clear he makes a statement becasue he wants to believe its true. # 1 form of bias. That's probably a result of spending too much time with Thorin: Let me make a lot of outrageous claims without providing any arguments. TLO makes his statement too because he just wants to believe it.
But he presents a countercase: The game is harder so it looks like the gameplay isn't as clean even though they are better.
And the standard assumption should always be: You get better when you practice more. Stating anything contrary to that is definitely not standard logic and you need very strong arguments when presenting that case.
When you don't do that, I can only conclude you bare biased since your case rests on nothing other than belief.
Most people who believe in GOD, believe in him because they want to.
FURTHER, TLO actually has experience playing against these guys on a somewhat daily basis. That at least gives him some credibility. Not that it implies he will always be correct, but his opinion is worth more than someone who just watches the game and states a random opinion.
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On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL.
And what part of my post said that? 2/10
What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself.
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On October 30 2016 05:55 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:51 Ej_ wrote:
Korean progamers to Blizzard: the game is too hard now.
Couch coaches and "experts": it's easier than it used to be. Obviously the game was the hardest when broken players like Mvp and Taeja were at the top. No player can ever be better than Mvp unless he wins 5 GSLs with one arm. Players making more mistakes does mean they are worse than the players in the past and not that the game is harder or that WoL and HotS were just figured out. So annoying :/.
30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play in has no affect on the overall skill-level.
Foreigners have just doubled their skill level in the span of a year. foreigners beating koreans doesn't mean koreans got worse but that foreigners got magically better.
So annoying :/.
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On October 30 2016 05:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:07 Hider wrote:
That said, I had hoped for around 40K viewers for Sc2. And 100K+ at the finals. The problem with sc2 is that nobody ever really tried to build the players as what i call "star players". Who is at fault? Everybody tbh, the players, the teams, tournaments, blizzard. I bet you saw the videos we got for this blizzcon? If we had stuff like that from the beginning on a regular basis people would have been more interested in all kinds of players (not that that would be enough, but you get the point)
That is a really, really incorrect statement objectively.
From TLO to NesTea to Snute to Byun, every single month someone is being built up to be the star.
You can say "I'd do it differently" and that's fine but you are not acknowledging something that is constantly happening every single week and it's pretty ridic.
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On October 30 2016 05:51 Ej_ wrote:
Korean progamers to Blizzard: the game is too hard now.
Couch coaches and "experts": it's easier than it used to be.
Yeah this thread went to shit fast
' TLO is payed by Blizzard to say the game is harder but he's lying' Yeah or he is a progamer that knows nearly every other progamer and has a better insight in how the game has changed than most people since he's in the pro scene of this game ever since it started.
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On October 30 2016 05:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +What about the Innovation example? Do you believe his mechanics are 100% better now than when he was basically the best player? The reason I didn't answer this question was because the answer is always gonna be biased. No I haven't studied Innovation enough or made indepth analysis and otherwise it would be dumb to talk about specific players. But all I can say is that logically speaking, it doesn't make sense that he should not have improved. And when I look at your argument, what I see you argueging for is a slowdown in the improvement rate. But it's not true that it goes to 0% (or negative). It just goes from 20% to 5% to 2%. And at 2% it's probably not noticeable for the average viewer. It would require a lot of indepth analysis. But making statements about "this player is worse - absolutely" without any indepth analysis just seems ridiculous/very biased from my perspective. And what alot of people seems to confuse is that the +2% improvement rate can look worse because they get attacked/harassed more in a new game/against better opponents. E.g. when Innovation dominated TvZ in early 2013 zergs had no idea how to play on creep. They would constantly take engagements off-creep/spew away units. And their droning time was atrocious as well. After a while zergs learned how to get to 4 bases and 80 drones somewhat regularly and Innovation couldn't look as good anymore.
And when I look at your argument, what I see you argueging for is a slowdown in the improvement rate. But it's not true that it goes to 0% (or negative). It just goes from 20% to 5% to 2%.
That would be true if everything else would stay the same, yes. Same lvl of competition, etc. I already gave factors why that isn't true though.
It's just that mechanically if you are already near perfection (not technically perfect, perfect as in "humanly possible") it's very hard to get better in that area (impossible?!). Soccer players these days probably are around that lvl, most improvement is about strategy/tactics.
"More training" probably wouldn't make messi any better at dribbling/etc. At some point humans have limits which is why i have to laugh every time someone disagrees with this notion he links the "automaton" videos as if that would prove that we aren't near the maximum possible lvl. Well yes technically that is true, just don't expect humans to do that no matter how much they practice.
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On October 30 2016 05:56 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
you have to spend a certain # of hours just to maintain your skill level. less and less players are willing to put in that kind of time. I honestly don't know the numbers and I am lazy, but as you claim that, can you please compare the amount of ladder games played in GM in 2016 with 2011/2012 etc? obviously ladder games are not everything but should give a good indication. then you can also check average time per match (extrapolate from tournament matches, should be close enough). If we have those numbers then arguments have an actual base rather than just writing words.
Everyone talking about TLO has summoned the bigger one
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On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself.
But he still does know more about whether the game has become harder than WoL and HotS than Stuchiu or anybody in this thread. He also knows better if players have gotten better or worse (since he actually plays against them).
Also if Dark, Zest and TY agreed with TLO would you believe him then?
Edit: He will ask them btw.
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On October 30 2016 05:56 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
you have to spend a certain # of hours just to maintain your skill level. less and less players are willing to put in that kind of time. I honestly don't know the numbers and I am lazy, but as you claim that, can you please compare the amount of ladder games played in GM in 2016 with 2011/2012 etc? obviously ladder games are not everything but should give a good indication. then you can also check average time per match (extrapolate from tournament matches, should be close enough). If we have those numbers then arguments have an actual base rather than just writing words.
i don't have a position in this discussion about whether or not the current skill level at the top of the game is better or worse... i have my own scrub level speculations and that's it.
my position, however, is that when the prize money is $0 and 0 companies are in the scene the skill level declines.
now, if we choke off 25% of the prize money.. will skill decline then? i don't know.. that's a tough question.
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On October 30 2016 06:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:55 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:51 Ej_ wrote:
Korean progamers to Blizzard: the game is too hard now.
Couch coaches and "experts": it's easier than it used to be. Obviously the game was the hardest when broken players like Mvp and Taeja were at the top. No player can ever be better than Mvp unless he wins 5 GSLs with one arm. Players making more mistakes does mean they are worse than the players in the past and not that the game is harder or that WoL and HotS were just figured out. So annoying :/. 30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play in has no affect on the overall skill-level. Foreigners have just doubled their skill level in the span of a year. foreigners beating koreans doesn't mean koreans got worse but that foreigners got magically better. So annoying :/.
- Zest clearly outclassing Neeb because of a 2-1 win in a bo3 series.
- The skill gap hasn't closed. Top 20 in the world are still all koreans.
- MVP was a better player in 2011 than he is today.
- koreans get worse when they practice
So annoying :/.
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On October 30 2016 06:00 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 05:07 Hider wrote:
That said, I had hoped for around 40K viewers for Sc2. And 100K+ at the finals. The problem with sc2 is that nobody ever really tried to build the players as what i call "star players". Who is at fault? Everybody tbh, the players, the teams, tournaments, blizzard. I bet you saw the videos we got for this blizzcon? If we had stuff like that from the beginning on a regular basis people would have been more interested in all kinds of players (not that that would be enough, but you get the point) That is a really, really incorrect statement objectively. From TLO to NesTea to Snute to Byun, every single month someone is being built up to be the star. You can say "I'd do it differently" and that's fine but you are not acknowledging something that is constantly happening every single week and it's pretty ridic.
I probably phrased that in the worst possible way. What i mean is that the scene as a whole didn't do a good job at making people care for the players overall. Korean players especially, it is hard to care for players you don't even understand (in general, i am talking about the average guy here)
There wasn't / isn't a lot of content outside of the games that makes you wanna be a fan of player x, other esports scene do this better, other esports scenes also have players who have more charisma, etc. That is hugely important.
There is a reason why stephano was/is such a big fan favorite, the lvl of play is only one part.
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On October 30 2016 05:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. The average HOTS muta/bling game wasn't as multitask-based as you might think. After it was figured out, it was actually relatively passive until terran hit critical mass. You definitely did not see attacks at 3-4 fronts throughout most of the game.
line bane muta also used different skills than current ZvT. It was harder in its own way, but it also made you look a lot better when you played well. Mutas shut down drops a lot easier, so in general the games looked less sloppy overall (plus, with both line bane muta and bio mine it was much more okay to be quite wasteful with your units). Look at how people played roach hydra in HotS (yes i know, roach hydra was shit) and compare that to roach ravager ZvT, you can see people have improved vastly in their ability to defend multi-prone harass with compositions that are inherently crappy at doing that.
LotV compositions are far more technical IMO, so players don't look as impressive as there is less display of raw mechanical skill. But LotV is a harder game, and TLO played both so i reckon his opinion isn't exactly "garbage".
Also, people seem to have forget how NOT difficult that matchup looked by the end. Ling bane muta vs bio mine at the end of HotS was actually a joke, zergs just had a field day literally just making units and killing terran. On the terran side, they really didn't look very impressive, nor did they win much (Dream is an exception I guess but even he lost pretty frequently in very unimpressive TvZ games). By the end, terrans were just going mech and well, everyone remembers what those games were like.
Protoss is infinitely harder than it was in HotS and while that may not seem obvious as a spectator, just playing the game makes that very apparent. You could argue Protoss players "looked" better back then. But ofc they looked better when photon overcharge was on the fucking Nexus, and you could basically just make colossi and storm and win almost any PvT that went past 12 minutes. Or PvZ where you could just do anything and win. Protoss players nowadays look a lot sloppier, but that's because it's a sloppier game. As a protoss player I can assure you that every single matchup is harder in LotV than HotS.
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On October 30 2016 06:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:51 Ej_ wrote:
Korean progamers to Blizzard: the game is too hard now.
Couch coaches and "experts": it's easier than it used to be. Yeah this thread went to shit fast ' TLO is payed by Blizzard to say the game is harder but he's lying' Yeah or he is a progamer that knows nearly every other progamer and has a better insight in how the game has changed than most people since he's in the pro scene of this game ever since it started.
i have no idea if TLO is lying or not. it is really tough for him while in southern cal. being paid by Blizz to say the skill level at the top is worse.
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On October 30 2016 05:59 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:56 Kovzirg wrote:On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years. So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL. And what part of my post said that? 2/10 What I said that TLO himself doesn't really have much to say about top-tier gameplay as he isn't involved in it himself.
You wouldn't listen to anything TLO says because he doesn't know anything in a screen shot of stuchiu and TLO in an argument about the subject we are currently discussing. So how do I make that conclusion? By being aware of the context of statements made in a series of comments. So I continue the line of inquiry, why would you consider stuchiu probably a bronze league scrub better at actually analyzing gameplay than TLO regardless of his fall from the top tier.
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holy shit this thread went deep, really deep
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ya, let's ease up on the TLO bashing. he has very interesting insights and was very innovative early in his career. if he has to "toe the blizzard line" while he is in Southern California ... i'm cool with that.
if he is getting paid by TL he is probably earning it.
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On October 30 2016 06:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:56 TBO wrote:On October 30 2016 05:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
you have to spend a certain # of hours just to maintain your skill level. less and less players are willing to put in that kind of time. I honestly don't know the numbers and I am lazy, but as you claim that, can you please compare the amount of ladder games played in GM in 2016 with 2011/2012 etc? obviously ladder games are not everything but should give a good indication. then you can also check average time per match (extrapolate from tournament matches, should be close enough). If we have those numbers then arguments have an actual base rather than just writing words. i don't have a position in this discussion about whether or not the current skill level at the top of the game is better or worse... i have my own scrub level speculations and that's it. my position, however, is that when the prize money is $0 and 0 companies are in the scene the skill level will decline. now, if we choke off 25% of the prize money.. will skill decline then? i don't know.. that's a tough question.
can definitely agree with the $0 statement, for the other one... first we'd need to establish some way to measure that and thats going to be hard. You can go by average screens per minute, reaction times, unspent minerals etc... but finding a formula to measure sc2 skill is going to be tough as it's more than just a few numbers. And comparing Lotv with hots is going to be very hard on top of that. Generally I think it is a sensible theory that if someone played the game fulltime for 6 years he is going to be better than he was than he played for 4 years. What the future might bring now with kespa teams gone is uncertain but for the current blizzcon that should not have a big effect , aside from the psychological burden on the players maybe, but their skill just didn't magically vanish with proleague.
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On October 30 2016 06:05 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 06:00 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 05:55 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:51 Ej_ wrote:
Korean progamers to Blizzard: the game is too hard now.
Couch coaches and "experts": it's easier than it used to be. Obviously the game was the hardest when broken players like Mvp and Taeja were at the top. No player can ever be better than Mvp unless he wins 5 GSLs with one arm. Players making more mistakes does mean they are worse than the players in the past and not that the game is harder or that WoL and HotS were just figured out. So annoying :/. 30 or so korean pros retiring with no new blood coming in and many players losing motivation due to lack of tournaments to play in has no affect on the overall skill-level. Foreigners have just doubled their skill level in the span of a year. foreigners beating koreans doesn't mean koreans got worse but that foreigners got magically better. So annoying :/. - Zest clearly outclassing Neeb because of a 2-1 win in a bo3 series. - The skill gap hasn't closed. Top 20 in the world are still all koreans. - MVP was a better player in 2011 than he is today. - koreans get worse when they practiceso annoying
That is what i call nitpicking and presenting actual arguments in the most one sided, ridiculous way possible just because you wanna be right. (which is ironically basically the thing you say Thorin/Stuchiu re doing, not that i agree with 100% of the things they say)
Well whatever, apparently as long as the game is played players always get more skilled no matter what 
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Protoss is infinitely harder than it was in HotS and while that may not seem obvious as a spectator, just playing the game makes that very apparent. You could argue Protoss players "looked" better back then.
Agree with this, and looking back at HOTS protoss I actually think it was retarded how little the race had to do from a mechanical perspective. How can you ever really look bad with a race that is so friendly when a-moving?
So instead protoss players could focus on refining the strategic/tactical aspect of the game and hence always look relatively clean.
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EPT
