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On October 30 2016 05:36 Musicus wrote:
Basically I agree with TLO.
Just looking at the following tweet correspondance, his ignorance is actually disturbing. He presents no arguments, no data, no qualitative analysis. Just "No your wrong TLO, I am right".
It's just clear he makes a statement becasue he wants to believe its true. # 1 form of bias. That's probably a result of spending too much time with Thorin: Let me make a lot of outrageous claims without providing any arguments.
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He may be onto something...... TLO used to be an average WCS player back then and now he's practically irrevelant in the competitive scene. ( Emphasis on competitive, I know he's a fan favourite around here and in the scene but in all honesty he has done absolutely nothing competitively for a while.)
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garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV.
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On October 30 2016 05:17 KtJ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:11 Fango wrote:On October 30 2016 05:10 KtJ wrote:
Anything worth watching? TY vs Elazer was also very close series. Many back and forth games Really? thats awesome. Elazer doing work.
Might be the closest series of blizzcon so far. the overall score doesn't show how tense it was. Elazer proved he might well be best foreigner
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On October 30 2016 05:41 Hider wrote:Just looking at the following tweet correspondance, his ignorance is actually disturbing. He presents no arguments, no data, no qualitative analysis. Just "No your wrong TLO, I am right". It's just clear he makes a statement becasue he wants to believe its true. # 1 form of bias. That's probably a result of spending too much time with Thorin.
even if the skill level is improving it'll be interesting to see how long that continues as prize money declines. sooner or later hte scene will hit a tipping point.
how is the skill level in competitive MULE these days? i bet you its worse than it was in 1992.
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On October 30 2016 05:37 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 05:21 Hider wrote:Look i already said that it's only about mechanical skill here Sure, never implied otherwise. Why would mechanical skills deteoriate if you keep practicing them? Do people split their marines better today than MKP did ? (basically) Yes by far. I am still amused at when people show that highlight-clip where MKP splits against slow banelings. Like that's anything impressive. Sometimes you need to practice something a decent amount just to stay at the same lvl. You seem to be very keen on the "amount of practice" only while i imo painted a more detailed picture (or i at least mentioned more factors) Ok MKP was actually a bad example, do you believe Innovation splits his marines better this year than 1-2 years ago? When do you practice something 5+ hours a day and - at best - just stay at your current level? It makes zero sense that when you practice and get challenged on a daily basis that you won't improve. What is the basis for suggesting otherwise?
If you are at a very high lvl where improving is very hard then yes most of the practice might actually be there to stay at the same high lvl more or less. Ofc you will improve at certain things over time when doing it over and over again, but a game of starcraft has enough aspects that you might actually not train aspect X "enough" to have any real impact on it, you actually might get worse.
Example: Micro interactions which simply aren't common atm because the meta is in a way that other solutions are easier to execute, whatever the reason might be.
What about the Innovation example? Do you believe his mechanics are 100% better now than when he was basically the best player?
On October 30 2016 05:34 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 30 2016 05:21 Hider wrote:Look i already said that it's only about mechanical skill here Sure, never implied otherwise. Why would mechanical skills deteoriate if you keep practicing them? Do people split their marines better today than MKP did ? (basically) Yes by far. I am still amused at when people show that highlight-clip where MKP splits against slow banelings. Like that's anything impressive. Sometimes you need to practice something a decent amount just to stay at the same lvl. You seem to be very keen on the "amount of practice" only while i imo painted a more detailed picture (or i at least mentioned more factors) Ok MKP was actually a bad example, do you believe Innovation splits his marines better this year than 1-2 years ago? Honestly watching INnoVation's play it's fair to say his mechanics have declined overall. Not to the point he's bad, but it's definitely gotten worse.
Yeah i think so as well
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On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV.
The average HOTS muta/bling game wasn't as multitask-based as you might think. After it was figured out, it was actually relatively passive until terran hit critical mass.
You definitely did not see attacks at 3-4 fronts throughout most of the game.
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On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV.
Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years.
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On October 30 2016 05:41 Hider wrote:Just looking at the following tweet correspondance, his ignorance is actually disturbing. He presents no arguments, no data, no qualitative analysis. Just "No your wrong TLO, I am right". It's just clear he makes a statement becasue he wants to believe its true. # 1 form of bias. That's probably a result of spending too much time with Thorin: Let me make a lot of outrageous claims without providing any arguments.
TLO makes his statement too because he just wants to believe it.
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On October 30 2016 05:39 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:34 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:33 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 05:31 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 05:28 Musicus wrote:On October 30 2016 05:25 Biscuittzz wrote:On October 30 2016 04:46 Hider wrote:On October 30 2016 04:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 30 2016 04:39 Hider wrote:
Also, let's take a moment to digest this Stuchio tweet that Thorin is basing his whole world view on:
[quote]
That result came right after he had the following results vs koreans:
0-3 loss to Innovation (completely outclassed - you can just watch the VODS).
0-2 Jaedong
0-2 Rain
1-4 Trap
YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCES!!!
Those were clearly just outliers. There was no reason to belive Snute was actually a top 5-10 player at that time.
But generally speaking, foreigners are playing much closer up against koreans today than they were 1½+ years ago. also he got crushed 3:0 by TY right after his wins over classic and Rain. Yes hence my point: Stuchio's tweet is deceiving because Snute's results back then were clearly just upsets and were never bound to be repeated on a somewhat regularly fashion. On the other hand, if you look at most of the results (or watch the games) from 2016 when top 20 koreans have met top 10 foreigners, you will not see a significant difference in the skill level. Koreans are still a tad ahead, but it has definitely narrowed alot. Is that due to foreigners gettkng better or Koreans getting worse? I'm for the latter. Players don't just become worse. uh... I don't think Mvp is still at the same skill level as he was in 2011. obviously, since he doesn't play anymore and his health detoriated... If he was healthy and had kept playing he would be better than his 2011 self. Which does not mean he would be the best plaer right now, since it's possible that others would've had a faster rate of improvement. I just don't agree that koreans didn't get worse. I watch vods of TaeJa, INnoVation, Life or PartinG games in 2013-2015 and their play looks much more clean than that of current koreans except maybe Dark and TY who are still amazing. That's because it is a different game. LotV is harder and faster which results in more mistakes. That's horrendous game design so on Blizz's part. It should be great because of it's merits and gameplay not because we find mistakes entertaining.
That's absurd. Games are entertaining because mistakes are made, if we would see two players playing "perfect" it would be incredibly boring because it usually means as defensive as possible.
BW games are great because the players aren't even near perfection and make a ton of "mistakes" all the time. Mistakes the enemy then can use to make plays.
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TLO has an interest in claiming the skill level is much higher. He is being paid by Blizzard. If he said the skill level declined it would hit reddit and blow up and be every where. TLO kinda has to say the skill level is higher or he could say nothing at all.
That said, TLO might be right... just saying that there are several factors that make it really, really tough for him to say the top level of play is getting worse.
it will eventually get worse and i don't know if we'll ever hear a caster screaming at BlizzCon 2021
"4 years ago he could've easily micro-ed his way out of this situation but because of a declining income he is spending more time studying medicine and interning at a hospital than playing SC2 because he knows this game is set to die soon!!!"
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What about the Innovation example? Do you believe his mechanics are 100% better now than when he was basically the best player?
The reason I didn't answer this question was because the answer is always gonna be biased. No I haven't studied Innovation enough or made indepth analysis and otherwise it would be dumb to talk about specific players.
But all I can say is that logically speaking, it doesn't make sense that he should not have improved.
And when I look at your argument, what I see you arguing for is a slowdown in the improvement rate. But it's not true that it goes to 0% (or negative). It just goes from 20% to 5% to 2%.
And at 2% it's probably not noticeable for the average viewer. It would require a lot of indepth analysis.
But making statements about "this player is worse - absolutely" without any indepth analysis just seems ridiculous/very biased from my perspective.
And what alot of people seems to confuse is that the +2% improvement rate can look worse because they get attacked/harassed more in a new game/against better opponents.
E.g. when Innovation dominated TvZ in early 2013 zergs had no idea how to play on creep. They would constantly take engagements off-creep/spew away units. And their droning time was atrocious as well.
After a while zergs learned how to get to 4 bases and 80 drones somewhat regularly and Innovation couldn't look as good anymore.
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Korean progamers to Blizzard: the game is too hard now.
Couch coaches and "experts": it's easier than it used to be.
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On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV.
No. You enjoyed watching it more so you have these great memories of it being so much harder. The same multi tasking shit still happens Terran's still drop pretty often and now they also do Liberator harass which is hard for Zergs and Protoss to defend. Terran's still clear creep Zergs still spread creep.
The rate of expansions is so much quicker in this expansion that yes, I'd have to agree with TLO that Legacy is considerably harder.
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I don't know if anyone has ever made this point before but I'll go ahead anyway:
Was there really such a big gap between Koreans and the top foreigners? KeSPA players never faced foreigners at Blizzcon 2014 & 2015 and because the "mid-tier" Koreans did it for them. Then I realised that KeSPA players have almost zero experience vs. foreigners in offline tournaments. Looking at the aligulac stats for the number of offline series (in WoL, HotS and LotV) the current Koreans at Blizzcon have played vs. foreigners:
Solar : 31
Dark: 3
Dear: 15
TY: 26
Stats: 11
Zest: 10
The idea that Koreans are on the whole better than Koreans is not exactly a myth but I think it has been exaggerated to a degree and the region locks gave credence to that myth. For the most part, KeSPA Koreans and foreigners don't actually have that much of a history to infer how well they rank against each other.
Edit: I meant "mid-tier" Koreans not Foreigners.
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On October 30 2016 05:50 Hider wrote:
But making statements about "this player is worse - absolutely" without any indepth analysis just seems ridiculous/very biased from my perspective.
you have to spend a certain # of hours just to maintain your skill level. less and less players are willing to put in that kind of time.
many gaming scenes have seen their top levels decline.... SC2 is just another game.
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On October 30 2016 05:50 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
TLO has an interest in claiming the skill level is much higher. He is being paid by Blizzard. If he said the skill level declined it would hit reddit and blow up and be every where. TLO kinda has to say the skill level is higher or he could say nothing at all.
That said, TLO might be right... just saying that there are several factors that make it really, really tough for him to say the top level of play is getting worse.
it will eventually get worse and i don't know if we'll ever hear a caster screaming at BlizzCon 2021
"4 years ago he could've easily micro-ed his way out of this situation but because of a declining income he is spending more time studying medicine and interning at a hospital than playing SC2 because he knows this game is set to die soon!!!"
He has to stay relevant some how I guess. Being highlights VOD editor backstage is a big come down for someone claiming to be a progamer.
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On October 30 2016 05:51 Ej_ wrote:
Korean progamers to Blizzard: the game is too hard now.
Couch coaches and "experts": it's easier than it used to be.
Obviously the game was the hardest when broken players like Mvp and Taeja were at the top.
No player can ever be better than Mvp unless he wins 5 GSLs with one arm. Players making more mistakes does mean they are worse than the players in the past and not that the game is harder or that WoL and HotS were just figured out.
So annoying :/.
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On October 30 2016 05:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
you have to spend a certain # of hours just to maintain your skill level. less and less players are willing to put in that kind of time.
I honestly don't know the numbers and I am lazy, but as you claim that, can you please compare the amount of ladder games played in GM in 2016 with 2011/2012 etc? obviously ladder games are not everything but should give a good indication. then you can also check average time per match (extrapolate from tournament matches, should be close enough). If we have those numbers then arguments have an actual base rather than just writing words.
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On October 30 2016 05:47 Biscuittzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:garbage. ling bane muta vs bio mine in HotS was way more multitasking intensive than everything we see in LotV and the top players still barely made any mistakes. something like Life vs Dream is not comparable to the things we see in LotV. Wouldn't listen to anything TLO says anymore really. He's a mid tier GM nowadays who's unfortunately been left behind in the pro scene. I always wonder how he warrants a contract from TL when he has achieved nothing in years.
So stuchiu knows more about gameplay than TLO does? ROFL.
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EPT
