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On June 28 2015 21:38 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 21:30 Rollora wrote:On June 28 2015 21:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 28 2015 20:04 fishjie wrote:On June 28 2015 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:33 NasusAndDraven wrote:On June 28 2015 18:16 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:13 Elentos wrote:On June 28 2015 18:02 HolyArrow wrote:On June 28 2015 17:42 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
And it was pretty short so naturally the thread won't be that long. Eh, Inca vs Nestea was a 4-0 and that reached well over 200 pages. Granted, that was after the thread was up for 4 days but I'd be quite surprised to see this thread even reach 35 pages in the next week. I'm not one those "lol ded gaem" people but it's pretty clear to me that competitive SC2 is well into its waning years. I doubt LotV will be able to substantially revive interest in the game but I would love to be wrong. InCa vs NesTea was the most ludicrous thing the world had ever seen. This was one sided, one player was clearly superior to the other and it wasn't very good or fun in the InCa way. The season 1 finals reached over 120 pages by the way as one of the best GSL finals in ages. The S2SL finals had the same score as this and twice the pages just a week ago, but it was far more enjoyable than this. So series length and series quality influence LR thread size. Stream quality, casters quality, schedule (both day and hour) influence the size of LR threads too. [e : as well as player hype ofc, but I'd say Rain vs ByuL was about as hype as Dream vs Classic, perhaps even more hype] Ok so Havik_ said he has been out for a while and sad to see only 25pages, I can just assume he remembers the days better when sc2 was peaking when he says "back in the day". Now I dont know how new you kids you are to the scene, but AFAIK since the GSL march 2011 thread got 350 pages, every single GSL final got atleast 200pages with average being around 300, until late 2012. You cant really compare the difference with those points. Well I kinda fail to see your point. I dunno exactly when did WCS finish yesterday, but I'd guess it was between 1 or 2 AM CEST, which means that this final was only 6 to 7 hours later. Since due to the timezones I'd guess most of the foreign viewers today were Europeans, that kinda explains less foreign viewers, and even more so less people in the LR. To that, add shit stream quality, apparently bad games (didn't see them), not a lot of hype (Rain and ByuL aren't PartinG and Life in the public's eyes), shit coverage by TL (preview up 4 hours before... LR thread created after the games started... No visible countdown on the banner or something...), bad exposure due to WCS being the same weekend... GGlord winfestor killed sc2. People were banned for rightfully complaining about it in LR threads. Broodling vs broodling fights in the final WOL GSL was the absolute rock bottom. Eventually, TL realized that these people were correct, and even the writers called out how terrible it was. But it was too late by then. Terran can be ridic good for over a year and the game is all fine and dandy, but any kind of domination period for another race results in a dead game and the community being killed. This is basically the entire reason why I'd never trust TL to create my strategy game over Blizzard. lets just always refer to 2010, where T was still good because the game just came out and was inbalanced and not figured out yet, but blizzard provided patch after patch so the game changes before the meta adapts, leading to the nerfing of Terran into the ground at the end of WoL. BLord Winfestor was fun to watch every game, right? And I hope you are not refering to 2014, which really was the year of PvPvPvP and sometimes PvZ. Oh and not to mention Taeja, who ruined a perfect Protoss year by having his perfect tournament run. And Flash. His one tournament win had to be during the period only protosses won... Why is it okay to refer to broodlord era and not to the periods of terran dominance?
It's fine to refer to the periods of terran dominance, but regardless of how imba terran was, it was never nearly as pls-god-kill-me-now to watch it as it was to watch zergs play broodlord infestor and that's honestly the most important thing, I am one of those avid followers that stopped pretty much everything sc2 related during that era.
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Avalon MSL Finals thread had more pages, was a best of 5, ZvZ, and had Calm/Kwanro in it! SC2 dead game!
But... it doesn't really matter. I would have watched these games but was out drinking -___-.
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On June 29 2015 01:04 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 21:38 RaFox17 wrote:On June 28 2015 21:30 Rollora wrote:On June 28 2015 21:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 28 2015 20:04 fishjie wrote:On June 28 2015 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:33 NasusAndDraven wrote:On June 28 2015 18:16 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:13 Elentos wrote:On June 28 2015 18:02 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
Eh, Inca vs Nestea was a 4-0 and that reached well over 200 pages. Granted, that was after the thread was up for 4 days but I'd be quite surprised to see this thread even reach 35 pages in the next week. I'm not one those "lol ded gaem" people but it's pretty clear to me that competitive SC2 is well into its waning years. I doubt LotV will be able to substantially revive interest in the game but I would love to be wrong. InCa vs NesTea was the most ludicrous thing the world had ever seen. This was one sided, one player was clearly superior to the other and it wasn't very good or fun in the InCa way. The season 1 finals reached over 120 pages by the way as one of the best GSL finals in ages. The S2SL finals had the same score as this and twice the pages just a week ago, but it was far more enjoyable than this. So series length and series quality influence LR thread size. Stream quality, casters quality, schedule (both day and hour) influence the size of LR threads too. [e : as well as player hype ofc, but I'd say Rain vs ByuL was about as hype as Dream vs Classic, perhaps even more hype] Ok so Havik_ said he has been out for a while and sad to see only 25pages, I can just assume he remembers the days better when sc2 was peaking when he says "back in the day". Now I dont know how new you kids you are to the scene, but AFAIK since the GSL march 2011 thread got 350 pages, every single GSL final got atleast 200pages with average being around 300, until late 2012. You cant really compare the difference with those points. Well I kinda fail to see your point. I dunno exactly when did WCS finish yesterday, but I'd guess it was between 1 or 2 AM CEST, which means that this final was only 6 to 7 hours later. Since due to the timezones I'd guess most of the foreign viewers today were Europeans, that kinda explains less foreign viewers, and even more so less people in the LR. To that, add shit stream quality, apparently bad games (didn't see them), not a lot of hype (Rain and ByuL aren't PartinG and Life in the public's eyes), shit coverage by TL (preview up 4 hours before... LR thread created after the games started... No visible countdown on the banner or something...), bad exposure due to WCS being the same weekend... GGlord winfestor killed sc2. People were banned for rightfully complaining about it in LR threads. Broodling vs broodling fights in the final WOL GSL was the absolute rock bottom. Eventually, TL realized that these people were correct, and even the writers called out how terrible it was. But it was too late by then. Terran can be ridic good for over a year and the game is all fine and dandy, but any kind of domination period for another race results in a dead game and the community being killed. This is basically the entire reason why I'd never trust TL to create my strategy game over Blizzard. lets just always refer to 2010, where T was still good because the game just came out and was inbalanced and not figured out yet, but blizzard provided patch after patch so the game changes before the meta adapts, leading to the nerfing of Terran into the ground at the end of WoL. BLord Winfestor was fun to watch every game, right? And I hope you are not refering to 2014, which really was the year of PvPvPvP and sometimes PvZ. Oh and not to mention Taeja, who ruined a perfect Protoss year by having his perfect tournament run. And Flash. His one tournament win had to be during the period only protosses won... Why is it okay to refer to broodlord era and not to the periods of terran dominance? It's fine to refer to the periods of terran dominance, but regardless of how imba terran was, it was never nearly as pls-god-kill-me-now to watch it as it was to watch zergs play broodlord infestor and that's honestly the most important thing, I am one of those avid followers that stopped pretty much everything sc2 related during that era.
Hey atleast terran was able to win before zerg got there. If terran goes mech zerg just has to leave the game now.
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On June 29 2015 01:04 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 21:38 RaFox17 wrote:On June 28 2015 21:30 Rollora wrote:On June 28 2015 21:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 28 2015 20:04 fishjie wrote:On June 28 2015 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:33 NasusAndDraven wrote:On June 28 2015 18:16 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:13 Elentos wrote:On June 28 2015 18:02 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
Eh, Inca vs Nestea was a 4-0 and that reached well over 200 pages. Granted, that was after the thread was up for 4 days but I'd be quite surprised to see this thread even reach 35 pages in the next week. I'm not one those "lol ded gaem" people but it's pretty clear to me that competitive SC2 is well into its waning years. I doubt LotV will be able to substantially revive interest in the game but I would love to be wrong. InCa vs NesTea was the most ludicrous thing the world had ever seen. This was one sided, one player was clearly superior to the other and it wasn't very good or fun in the InCa way. The season 1 finals reached over 120 pages by the way as one of the best GSL finals in ages. The S2SL finals had the same score as this and twice the pages just a week ago, but it was far more enjoyable than this. So series length and series quality influence LR thread size. Stream quality, casters quality, schedule (both day and hour) influence the size of LR threads too. [e : as well as player hype ofc, but I'd say Rain vs ByuL was about as hype as Dream vs Classic, perhaps even more hype] Ok so Havik_ said he has been out for a while and sad to see only 25pages, I can just assume he remembers the days better when sc2 was peaking when he says "back in the day". Now I dont know how new you kids you are to the scene, but AFAIK since the GSL march 2011 thread got 350 pages, every single GSL final got atleast 200pages with average being around 300, until late 2012. You cant really compare the difference with those points. Well I kinda fail to see your point. I dunno exactly when did WCS finish yesterday, but I'd guess it was between 1 or 2 AM CEST, which means that this final was only 6 to 7 hours later. Since due to the timezones I'd guess most of the foreign viewers today were Europeans, that kinda explains less foreign viewers, and even more so less people in the LR. To that, add shit stream quality, apparently bad games (didn't see them), not a lot of hype (Rain and ByuL aren't PartinG and Life in the public's eyes), shit coverage by TL (preview up 4 hours before... LR thread created after the games started... No visible countdown on the banner or something...), bad exposure due to WCS being the same weekend... GGlord winfestor killed sc2. People were banned for rightfully complaining about it in LR threads. Broodling vs broodling fights in the final WOL GSL was the absolute rock bottom. Eventually, TL realized that these people were correct, and even the writers called out how terrible it was. But it was too late by then. Terran can be ridic good for over a year and the game is all fine and dandy, but any kind of domination period for another race results in a dead game and the community being killed. This is basically the entire reason why I'd never trust TL to create my strategy game over Blizzard. lets just always refer to 2010, where T was still good because the game just came out and was inbalanced and not figured out yet, but blizzard provided patch after patch so the game changes before the meta adapts, leading to the nerfing of Terran into the ground at the end of WoL. BLord Winfestor was fun to watch every game, right? And I hope you are not refering to 2014, which really was the year of PvPvPvP and sometimes PvZ. Oh and not to mention Taeja, who ruined a perfect Protoss year by having his perfect tournament run. And Flash. His one tournament win had to be during the period only protosses won... Why is it okay to refer to broodlord era and not to the periods of terran dominance? It's fine to refer to the periods of terran dominance, but regardless of how imba terran was, it was never nearly as pls-god-kill-me-now to watch it as it was to watch zergs play broodlord infestor and that's honestly the most important thing, I am one of those avid followers that stopped pretty much everything sc2 related during that era.
Its actually 3 main reasons.
1.) Terran Dominance had a diverse set of styles. So it was not one comp, build, or unit that was considered too strong--there was just a shit tonne of them.
2.) Foreign invites was at an all time high. Foreigners were seeded constantly into the GSL with Huk, Idra, Jinro, Select, Ret, etc... constantly in the midst creating lots of excitement from foreign fans.
3.) Nerfbat swings were near constant. How can one complain when nerfs kept getting thrown at Terran over and over and over and yet MVP still found a way to be OP.
Had those three things been true for the Broodfestor era or even the Toss Era then things would have been different. Instead "wait till HotS" was the answer to Broodfestor.
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Fuck me, I can't belive they make Byul stay there on stage and participate in those interviews.... seeing him cry was so heartbreaking... ;-;
Congrats though rain
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Is gom ever making their app again? I used to buy the whole seasons and watch all the games during my commutes and now without the app its just eh 
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On June 29 2015 01:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 01:04 IshinShishi wrote:On June 28 2015 21:38 RaFox17 wrote:On June 28 2015 21:30 Rollora wrote:On June 28 2015 21:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 28 2015 20:04 fishjie wrote:On June 28 2015 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:33 NasusAndDraven wrote:On June 28 2015 18:16 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:13 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
InCa vs NesTea was the most ludicrous thing the world had ever seen. This was one sided, one player was clearly superior to the other and it wasn't very good or fun in the InCa way. The season 1 finals reached over 120 pages by the way as one of the best GSL finals in ages.
The S2SL finals had the same score as this and twice the pages just a week ago, but it was far more enjoyable than this. So series length and series quality influence LR thread size. Stream quality, casters quality, schedule (both day and hour) influence the size of LR threads too. [e : as well as player hype ofc, but I'd say Rain vs ByuL was about as hype as Dream vs Classic, perhaps even more hype] Ok so Havik_ said he has been out for a while and sad to see only 25pages, I can just assume he remembers the days better when sc2 was peaking when he says "back in the day". Now I dont know how new you kids you are to the scene, but AFAIK since the GSL march 2011 thread got 350 pages, every single GSL final got atleast 200pages with average being around 300, until late 2012. You cant really compare the difference with those points. Well I kinda fail to see your point. I dunno exactly when did WCS finish yesterday, but I'd guess it was between 1 or 2 AM CEST, which means that this final was only 6 to 7 hours later. Since due to the timezones I'd guess most of the foreign viewers today were Europeans, that kinda explains less foreign viewers, and even more so less people in the LR. To that, add shit stream quality, apparently bad games (didn't see them), not a lot of hype (Rain and ByuL aren't PartinG and Life in the public's eyes), shit coverage by TL (preview up 4 hours before... LR thread created after the games started... No visible countdown on the banner or something...), bad exposure due to WCS being the same weekend... GGlord winfestor killed sc2. People were banned for rightfully complaining about it in LR threads. Broodling vs broodling fights in the final WOL GSL was the absolute rock bottom. Eventually, TL realized that these people were correct, and even the writers called out how terrible it was. But it was too late by then. Terran can be ridic good for over a year and the game is all fine and dandy, but any kind of domination period for another race results in a dead game and the community being killed. This is basically the entire reason why I'd never trust TL to create my strategy game over Blizzard. lets just always refer to 2010, where T was still good because the game just came out and was inbalanced and not figured out yet, but blizzard provided patch after patch so the game changes before the meta adapts, leading to the nerfing of Terran into the ground at the end of WoL. BLord Winfestor was fun to watch every game, right? And I hope you are not refering to 2014, which really was the year of PvPvPvP and sometimes PvZ. Oh and not to mention Taeja, who ruined a perfect Protoss year by having his perfect tournament run. And Flash. His one tournament win had to be during the period only protosses won... Why is it okay to refer to broodlord era and not to the periods of terran dominance? It's fine to refer to the periods of terran dominance, but regardless of how imba terran was, it was never nearly as pls-god-kill-me-now to watch it as it was to watch zergs play broodlord infestor and that's honestly the most important thing, I am one of those avid followers that stopped pretty much everything sc2 related during that era. Its actually 3 main reasons. 1.) Terran Dominance had a diverse set of styles. So it was not one comp, build, or unit that was considered too strong--there was just a shit tonne of them. 2.) Foreign invites was at an all time high. Foreigners were seeded constantly into the GSL with Huk, Idra, Jinro, Select, Ret, etc... constantly in the midst creating lots of excitement from foreign fans. 3.) Nerfbat swings were near constant. How can one complain when nerfs kept getting thrown at Terran over and over and over and yet MVP still found a way to be OP. Had those three things been true for the Broodfestor era or even the Toss Era then things would have been different. Instead "wait till HotS" was the answer to Broodfestor.
To talk about how terrans were constantly nerfed and it was so hard to win for Mvp is really disingenuous when you consider the 20 player peak terran had in october 2011, a long time after the start of the reign. The 1-1-1 was quite a constant in TvP, so the diversity you talk about reminds me of the diversity of going mutalisks in 2012 PvZ once in a while. But you were probably talking about TvZ, the match-up that the community cares about the most, which brings me back to my original point: this is why I'm glad that the community isn't in charge of the game.
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On June 29 2015 02:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 01:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 29 2015 01:04 IshinShishi wrote:On June 28 2015 21:38 RaFox17 wrote:On June 28 2015 21:30 Rollora wrote:On June 28 2015 21:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 28 2015 20:04 fishjie wrote:On June 28 2015 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:33 NasusAndDraven wrote:On June 28 2015 18:16 OtherWorld wrote:
[quote]
Stream quality, casters quality, schedule (both day and hour) influence the size of LR threads too. [e : as well as player hype ofc, but I'd say Rain vs ByuL was about as hype as Dream vs Classic, perhaps even more hype] Ok so Havik_ said he has been out for a while and sad to see only 25pages, I can just assume he remembers the days better when sc2 was peaking when he says "back in the day". Now I dont know how new you kids you are to the scene, but AFAIK since the GSL march 2011 thread got 350 pages, every single GSL final got atleast 200pages with average being around 300, until late 2012. You cant really compare the difference with those points. Well I kinda fail to see your point. I dunno exactly when did WCS finish yesterday, but I'd guess it was between 1 or 2 AM CEST, which means that this final was only 6 to 7 hours later. Since due to the timezones I'd guess most of the foreign viewers today were Europeans, that kinda explains less foreign viewers, and even more so less people in the LR. To that, add shit stream quality, apparently bad games (didn't see them), not a lot of hype (Rain and ByuL aren't PartinG and Life in the public's eyes), shit coverage by TL (preview up 4 hours before... LR thread created after the games started... No visible countdown on the banner or something...), bad exposure due to WCS being the same weekend... GGlord winfestor killed sc2. People were banned for rightfully complaining about it in LR threads. Broodling vs broodling fights in the final WOL GSL was the absolute rock bottom. Eventually, TL realized that these people were correct, and even the writers called out how terrible it was. But it was too late by then. Terran can be ridic good for over a year and the game is all fine and dandy, but any kind of domination period for another race results in a dead game and the community being killed. This is basically the entire reason why I'd never trust TL to create my strategy game over Blizzard. lets just always refer to 2010, where T was still good because the game just came out and was inbalanced and not figured out yet, but blizzard provided patch after patch so the game changes before the meta adapts, leading to the nerfing of Terran into the ground at the end of WoL. BLord Winfestor was fun to watch every game, right? And I hope you are not refering to 2014, which really was the year of PvPvPvP and sometimes PvZ. Oh and not to mention Taeja, who ruined a perfect Protoss year by having his perfect tournament run. And Flash. His one tournament win had to be during the period only protosses won... Why is it okay to refer to broodlord era and not to the periods of terran dominance? It's fine to refer to the periods of terran dominance, but regardless of how imba terran was, it was never nearly as pls-god-kill-me-now to watch it as it was to watch zergs play broodlord infestor and that's honestly the most important thing, I am one of those avid followers that stopped pretty much everything sc2 related during that era. Its actually 3 main reasons. 1.) Terran Dominance had a diverse set of styles. So it was not one comp, build, or unit that was considered too strong--there was just a shit tonne of them. 2.) Foreign invites was at an all time high. Foreigners were seeded constantly into the GSL with Huk, Idra, Jinro, Select, Ret, etc... constantly in the midst creating lots of excitement from foreign fans. 3.) Nerfbat swings were near constant. How can one complain when nerfs kept getting thrown at Terran over and over and over and yet MVP still found a way to be OP. Had those three things been true for the Broodfestor era or even the Toss Era then things would have been different. Instead "wait till HotS" was the answer to Broodfestor. To talk about how terrans were constantly nerfed and it was so hard to win for Mvp is really disingenuous when you consider the 20 player peak terran had in october 2011, a long time after the start of the reign. The 1-1-1 was quite a constant in TvP, so the diversity you talk about reminds me of the diversity of going mutalisks in 2012 PvZ once in a while. But you were probably talking about TvZ, the match-up that the community cares about the most, which brings me back to my original point: this is why I'm glad that the community isn't in charge of the game.
Lol
First off--I was pointing out why the community doesn't point out the Terran dominance, not that they shouldn't. But it's harder to complain when things like nerfs were given to their buildings, units, spells, and stats over and over again over the course of years. So much so, that community support to "wait" for an Infestor nerf came specifically with the caveat of "they nerfed snipe too quickly, let's wait for them to adapt."
Second off--Puma was the only Terran consistently winning with the 1-1-1 at that time with most pros favoring MKP's and Bomber's 1rax FE into a 10 minute marine/medivac push. And while some people preferred opening banshee into 1-1-1, others preferred the Hellion Drop into 1-1-1. Assuming the blue flame drop into marauder push (after you force stalkers with blue flames) was not your cup of tea. And that's only talking about the boring builds in TvP at the time. You get weirder if you include ghost timings, cc first into MMM, and Thorzain's Thor push that had to be nerfed by blizzard.
Then you add the variety from the other two matches and it's obvious you didn't actual watch those games.
Even then, this doesn't mean Terran era shouldn't be brought up--but there's a reason why they can't just point at a build/unit/strat that was OP since there was a lot of styles.
Third off--the Terran reign started in 2010 as is evident by te fact that there were only 10 or so non-terrains who were even competitive as top players at the time. Sure Zerg won the first two GSLs and MC won the 3rd. But no one who actually watched the game at that time would believe you if you said that Terran wasn't dominating.
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On June 29 2015 01:19 Vasoline73 wrote:
Avalon MSL Finals thread had more pages, was a best of 5, ZvZ, and had Calm/Kwanro in it! SC2 dead game!
But... it doesn't really matter. I would have watched these games but was out drinking -___-.
I've been hearing people say SC2 is dying for years and I've always laughed at it because there's still a large player base and lots of tournaments. I do have to start wondering if there is even a nugget of truth to this death talk though at this point. People don't seem that thrilled about LOTV (I'm not excited by what I've heard thus far either) and a revival in Korea seems very unlikely. IDK
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YES RAIN FUCK YEAH! Wish I coulda watched but I'm so glad that Rain finally is a Code S champion!
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On June 29 2015 03:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 02:36 Nebuchad wrote:On June 29 2015 01:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 29 2015 01:04 IshinShishi wrote:On June 28 2015 21:38 RaFox17 wrote:On June 28 2015 21:30 Rollora wrote:On June 28 2015 21:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 28 2015 20:04 fishjie wrote:On June 28 2015 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:33 NasusAndDraven wrote:
[quote]
Ok so Havik_ said he has been out for a while and sad to see only 25pages, I can just assume he remembers the days better when sc2 was peaking when he says "back in the day". Now I dont know how new you kids you are to the scene, but AFAIK since the GSL march 2011 thread got 350 pages, every single GSL final got atleast 200pages with average being around 300, until late 2012. You cant really compare the difference with those points. Well I kinda fail to see your point. I dunno exactly when did WCS finish yesterday, but I'd guess it was between 1 or 2 AM CEST, which means that this final was only 6 to 7 hours later. Since due to the timezones I'd guess most of the foreign viewers today were Europeans, that kinda explains less foreign viewers, and even more so less people in the LR. To that, add shit stream quality, apparently bad games (didn't see them), not a lot of hype (Rain and ByuL aren't PartinG and Life in the public's eyes), shit coverage by TL (preview up 4 hours before... LR thread created after the games started... No visible countdown on the banner or something...), bad exposure due to WCS being the same weekend... GGlord winfestor killed sc2. People were banned for rightfully complaining about it in LR threads. Broodling vs broodling fights in the final WOL GSL was the absolute rock bottom. Eventually, TL realized that these people were correct, and even the writers called out how terrible it was. But it was too late by then. Terran can be ridic good for over a year and the game is all fine and dandy, but any kind of domination period for another race results in a dead game and the community being killed. This is basically the entire reason why I'd never trust TL to create my strategy game over Blizzard. lets just always refer to 2010, where T was still good because the game just came out and was inbalanced and not figured out yet, but blizzard provided patch after patch so the game changes before the meta adapts, leading to the nerfing of Terran into the ground at the end of WoL. BLord Winfestor was fun to watch every game, right? And I hope you are not refering to 2014, which really was the year of PvPvPvP and sometimes PvZ. Oh and not to mention Taeja, who ruined a perfect Protoss year by having his perfect tournament run. And Flash. His one tournament win had to be during the period only protosses won... Why is it okay to refer to broodlord era and not to the periods of terran dominance? It's fine to refer to the periods of terran dominance, but regardless of how imba terran was, it was never nearly as pls-god-kill-me-now to watch it as it was to watch zergs play broodlord infestor and that's honestly the most important thing, I am one of those avid followers that stopped pretty much everything sc2 related during that era. Its actually 3 main reasons. 1.) Terran Dominance had a diverse set of styles. So it was not one comp, build, or unit that was considered too strong--there was just a shit tonne of them. 2.) Foreign invites was at an all time high. Foreigners were seeded constantly into the GSL with Huk, Idra, Jinro, Select, Ret, etc... constantly in the midst creating lots of excitement from foreign fans. 3.) Nerfbat swings were near constant. How can one complain when nerfs kept getting thrown at Terran over and over and over and yet MVP still found a way to be OP. Had those three things been true for the Broodfestor era or even the Toss Era then things would have been different. Instead "wait till HotS" was the answer to Broodfestor. To talk about how terrans were constantly nerfed and it was so hard to win for Mvp is really disingenuous when you consider the 20 player peak terran had in october 2011, a long time after the start of the reign. The 1-1-1 was quite a constant in TvP, so the diversity you talk about reminds me of the diversity of going mutalisks in 2012 PvZ once in a while. But you were probably talking about TvZ, the match-up that the community cares about the most, which brings me back to my original point: this is why I'm glad that the community isn't in charge of the game. Lol First off--I was pointing out why the community doesn't point out the Terran dominance, not that they shouldn't. But it's harder to complain when things like nerfs were given to their buildings, units, spells, and stats over and over again over the course of years. So much so, that community support to "wait" for an Infestor nerf came specifically with the caveat of "they nerfed snipe too quickly, let's wait for them to adapt." Second off--Puma was the only Terran consistently winning with the 1-1-1 at that time with most pros favoring MKP's and Bomber's 1rax FE into a 10 minute marine/medivac push. And while some people preferred opening banshee into 1-1-1, others preferred the Hellion Drop into 1-1-1. Assuming the blue flame drop into marauder push (after you force stalkers with blue flames) was not your cup of tea. And that's only talking about the boring builds in TvP at the time. You get weirder if you include ghost timings, cc first into MMM, and Thorzain's Thor push that had to be nerfed by blizzard. Then you add the variety from the other two matches and it's obvious you didn't actual watch those games. Even then, this doesn't mean Terran era shouldn't be brought up--but there's a reason why they can't just point at a build/unit/strat that was OP since there was a lot of styles. Third off--the Terran reign started in 2010 as is evident by te fact that there were only 10 or so non-terrains who were even competitive as top players at the time. Sure Zerg won the first two GSLs and MC won the 3rd. But no one who actually watched the game at that time would believe you if you said that Terran wasn't dominating.
I know what you were doing. I just disagreed with you that those were the reasons why.
I literally watched every single one of those games. I watched them during the Broodlord Infestor era when I started getting interested in esports. I have a collector's mindset and so I went back in time and watched every single one of them, in a row, every night, before going to sleep. That you don't think 1-1-1 was prevalent tells me you were the one who skipped some of the watching; Mvp is the only terran who I don't remember doing a lot of 1-1-1 (actually I only remember him doing the one he lost on Crossfire after the range buff). But that is a factual claim, we just need some stats on that, I can do that next week-end if you want.
To top it off, the situation you describe is similar to protoss in 2014. It wasn't necessarily the blink all-in that was problematic, it was the capacity to go for several really strong all-ins, and to transition easily off of them if the terran was prepared. A game in which the terran dies to a blink all-in looks very different from a game in which the terran dies because he prepared too much against blink and got behind. Somehow that didn't make the community any more forgiving.
For the rest, I'm not really interested in those discussions. I'm fine with any era being brought up or not brought up. I don't think terrans are less deserving for their wins in 2011 and I don't think Sniper is less deserving for winning in 2012, or whichever protoss you want to mention in 2014. I don't really care, the conditions of the game were clear for every player involved, they were in the tournaments regardless, so the tournaments are valid. I'm reacting to the notion that a period of zerg dominance kills a game that previously had a period of terran dominance in which viewership was thriving. This isn't a neutral observation. It tells me something. It should tell most people the same.
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Terran dominance was clearly better for the game than Zerg dominance, because TvT was fun to watch and ZvZ was boring. Obviously that's just my opinion but I think most people felt that way. TvT felt like a chess match, ZvZ felt like Roach/Hydra balls running into each other, sometimes with Infestors throwing fungals into the fray. The only fun part of ZvZ were the intense Ling/Baneling micro battles that sometimes happened in the earlier parts of the game.
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On June 28 2015 20:30 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 20:12 RaFox17 wrote:On June 28 2015 20:04 fishjie wrote:On June 28 2015 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:33 NasusAndDraven wrote:On June 28 2015 18:16 OtherWorld wrote:On June 28 2015 18:13 Elentos wrote:On June 28 2015 18:02 HolyArrow wrote:On June 28 2015 17:42 Elentos wrote:On June 28 2015 17:40 Seeker wrote:
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Thread came up AFTER the finals had started. There was no hype generated whatsoever. Also, the games were not that great apart from game one. And there's also the fact that I don't think people were really all that psyched about Rain vs ByuL. And it was pretty short so naturally the thread won't be that long. Eh, Inca vs Nestea was a 4-0 and that reached well over 200 pages. Granted, that was after the thread was up for 4 days but I'd be quite surprised to see this thread even reach 35 pages in the next week. I'm not one those "lol ded gaem" people but it's pretty clear to me that competitive SC2 is well into its waning years. I doubt LotV will be able to substantially revive interest in the game but I would love to be wrong. InCa vs NesTea was the most ludicrous thing the world had ever seen. This was one sided, one player was clearly superior to the other and it wasn't very good or fun in the InCa way. The season 1 finals reached over 120 pages by the way as one of the best GSL finals in ages. The S2SL finals had the same score as this and twice the pages just a week ago, but it was far more enjoyable than this. So series length and series quality influence LR thread size. Stream quality, casters quality, schedule (both day and hour) influence the size of LR threads too. [e : as well as player hype ofc, but I'd say Rain vs ByuL was about as hype as Dream vs Classic, perhaps even more hype] Ok so Havik_ said he has been out for a while and sad to see only 25pages, I can just assume he remembers the days better when sc2 was peaking when he says "back in the day". Now I dont know how new you kids you are to the scene, but AFAIK since the GSL march 2011 thread got 350 pages, every single GSL final got atleast 200pages with average being around 300, until late 2012. You cant really compare the difference with those points. Well I kinda fail to see your point. I dunno exactly when did WCS finish yesterday, but I'd guess it was between 1 or 2 AM CEST, which means that this final was only 6 to 7 hours later. Since due to the timezones I'd guess most of the foreign viewers today were Europeans, that kinda explains less foreign viewers, and even more so less people in the LR. To that, add shit stream quality, apparently bad games (didn't see them), not a lot of hype (Rain and ByuL aren't PartinG and Life in the public's eyes), shit coverage by TL (preview up 4 hours before... LR thread created after the games started... No visible countdown on the banner or something...), bad exposure due to WCS being the same weekend... The number of viewers/ size of LR threads has obviously gone down. SC2 is a niche game with niche viewership. I dunno why you guys are so defensive about it. The evidence is clear as day. State of the Game hasn't been on the air in years. That should tell you what the state of the game is. GGlord winfestor killed sc2. People were banned for rightfully complaining about it in LR threads. Broodling vs broodling fights in the final WOL GSL was the absolute rock bottom. Eventually, TL realized that these people were correct, and even the writers called out how terrible it was. But it was too late by then. People complained because they cared, but blizzard didn't. Hots briefly revived the game but it had already lost massive viewership. Momentum is very important, and Sc2 lost it with a small increase to queen range. Its unfortunate, because TvZ is once again beautiful to watch. Anyway, the lack of interest in SC2 versus LOL and DOTA2 shouldn't take away one's enjoyment of the game. Hopefully sc2 still has enough interest to provide a few more years of entertainment. It never ceases to surprise me how the queen buff is the root of alk evil and the reason for everything. It's not like hots Introduced the swarm host, and the oracle, turned zvt into a battle of pure mechanics, gave protoss 600 all in timings with the aid of the one click defense core and to top it off made mass raven viable. Nope all of that was due to queen patch.
Dude by the time HOTS came out, SC2 viewership had already declined. I believe by then NASL and IPL had both died, while MLG would shortly drop SC2 altogether. So it didn't matter about the subsequent balance patches, because gglord winfestor singlehandedly pretty much ruined everything. TvZ was enjoyable to watch before then. Yeah the blink era was bad, because by then everyone had moved on to LOL and DOTA2.
And to the other guy complaining about other periods of dominance. The era of terran dominance at the start wasn't so bad because at least terran was fun to watch and took skill. ZvZ broodlord vs broodlord was awful. TvT was like a chess match with lots of careful positioning. Terrans winning was far more entertaining than Zerg winning. I'm not a terran player btw, I just watch the game. I played protoss and yeah they are a poorly designed race. But that's a topic for another day. And did it ever get so bad that foreign Terrans could consistently beat korean zergs during the first few seasons of WOL? I don't think so. But the reverse was true during gglord/winfestor. And of course anyone who cried patchzerg got banned, even though it was the truth. Stephano and Scarlett were the only legit good foreigner zerg, the rest just abused winfestor/gglord (although Scarlett definitely did too, but she showed she was just playing to win and had actual skill to continue winning even after the nerfs). So yeah queen range was the worst.
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On June 05 2015 16:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I have this weird feeling that Rain will do well this season. I can't explain why.
Well played sir well played
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Byul was destined to lose. Well, back go obscurity
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Pretty lackluster games, and Byul didn't play to his standards. Feel like this should have been way closer...
Great interview afterwards though, very emotional.
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fuck man how can they interview the loser just after the games... poor ByuL
p.s i love GyuRi ♥
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Holy shit ByuL after the game, that hurt to watch but makes the game look so important.
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GSL with 28 pages... holy cow.
Were the games super one-sided?
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On June 29 2015 21:39 IntoTheheart wrote:
GSL with 28 pages... holy cow.
Were the games super one-sided?
yes
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EPT
