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United States23455 Posts
On March 16 2014 07:36 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:28 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:26 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:25 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:24 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:21 scypio wrote:On March 16 2014 07:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:18 scypio wrote:Fun fact: if you take a look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments and look for four worst-balanced consecutive tournaments 2014 will simply rise and shine, with 7/8 protoss in finals of IEM Season VIII - World Championship, IEM Season VIII - Cologne ,ASUS ROG Winter 2014 and IEM Season VIII - Sao Paulo. It has never been this bad. We had 6/8 zergs at the fall of 2012, with  Life and Leenock (MLG Fall Championship), Sniper and HyuN (GSL Season 5), Nerchio and Bly (Dreamhack Open Bucharest) split by  Mana and  ForGG (ESWC 2012). Terran reached similiar level of OP in 2010 (starting with DreamHack Winter 2010), and July 2011 (starting with 2011 MLG Anaheim) with 6/8 players in four finals. It has never been as bad. Not even in the darkest days of WoL. You should take more than race distribution at the finals for consideration. I wanted to make a post about racial distribution at the finals  Usually the balance is judged by Ro16-Ro8 racial distribution. This just isn't true. Eh, why? Judging balance from the Ro16 is (normally) not helpful. In any given tournament there are bound to be 16 players who are strictly better than the rest. For example, if at a Dreamhack which has multiple group stages there ended up being 16 protoss in the ro16 but those 16 were all the Koreans does that reflect on balance? Or if the same thing happened and there was an even racial distribution but once again with all the Koreans getting through would that really reflect if there were issues or not? Yes it does, because there are non-Protoss players from Korea. The problem with considering finals only you face - it could be just 2-3 extremely talented players, not the whole race having an upperhand in competetion.
Yeah I'm more interested in the quarterfinals, or perhaps the ro16 in a tournament like GSL.
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United States23455 Posts
On March 16 2014 07:40 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:28 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:26 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:25 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:24 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:21 scypio wrote:On March 16 2014 07:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:18 scypio wrote:Fun fact: if you take a look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments and look for four worst-balanced consecutive tournaments 2014 will simply rise and shine, with 7/8 protoss in finals of IEM Season VIII - World Championship, IEM Season VIII - Cologne ,ASUS ROG Winter 2014 and IEM Season VIII - Sao Paulo. It has never been this bad. We had 6/8 zergs at the fall of 2012, with Life and Leenock (MLG Fall Championship), Sniper and HyuN (GSL Season 5), Nerchio and Bly (Dreamhack Open Bucharest) split by Mana and ForGG (ESWC 2012). Terran reached similiar level of OP in 2010 (starting with DreamHack Winter 2010), and July 2011 (starting with 2011 MLG Anaheim) with 6/8 players in four finals. It has never been as bad. Not even in the darkest days of WoL. You should take more than race distribution at the finals for consideration. I wanted to make a post about racial distribution at the finals Usually the balance is judged by Ro16-Ro8 racial distribution. This just isn't true. Eh, why? Judging balance from the Ro16 is (normally) not helpful. In any given tournament there are bound to be 16 players who are strictly better than the rest. For example, if at a Dreamhack which has multiple group stages there ended up being 16 protoss in the ro16 but those 16 were all the Koreans does that reflect on balance? Or if the same thing happened and there was an even racial distribution but once again with all the Koreans getting through would that really reflect if there were issues or not? judging by ro16 makes way more sense than finals 2 out of those 7 protoss is herO, maybe herO is just really really good? And so many series in this tournament went 3-2, how can anyone cry balance...
Judging by Ro16 in this tournament makes no sense because the players qualified months ago through tournaments under different patches or were invited. But in a tournament like GSL yeah ro16 is better.
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On March 16 2014 07:41 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:40 sharkie wrote:On March 16 2014 07:28 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:26 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:25 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:24 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:21 scypio wrote:On March 16 2014 07:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:18 scypio wrote:Fun fact: if you take a look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments and look for four worst-balanced consecutive tournaments 2014 will simply rise and shine, with 7/8 protoss in finals of IEM Season VIII - World Championship, IEM Season VIII - Cologne ,ASUS ROG Winter 2014 and IEM Season VIII - Sao Paulo. It has never been this bad. We had 6/8 zergs at the fall of 2012, with Life and Leenock (MLG Fall Championship), Sniper and HyuN (GSL Season 5), Nerchio and Bly (Dreamhack Open Bucharest) split by Mana and ForGG (ESWC 2012). Terran reached similiar level of OP in 2010 (starting with DreamHack Winter 2010), and July 2011 (starting with 2011 MLG Anaheim) with 6/8 players in four finals. It has never been as bad. Not even in the darkest days of WoL. You should take more than race distribution at the finals for consideration. I wanted to make a post about racial distribution at the finals Usually the balance is judged by Ro16-Ro8 racial distribution. This just isn't true. Eh, why? Judging balance from the Ro16 is (normally) not helpful. In any given tournament there are bound to be 16 players who are strictly better than the rest. For example, if at a Dreamhack which has multiple group stages there ended up being 16 protoss in the ro16 but those 16 were all the Koreans does that reflect on balance? Or if the same thing happened and there was an even racial distribution but once again with all the Koreans getting through would that really reflect if there were issues or not? judging by ro16 makes way more sense than finals 2 out of those 7 protoss is herO, maybe herO is just really really good? And so many series in this tournament went 3-2, how can anyone cry balance... Judging by Ro16 in this tournament makes no sense because the players qualified months ago through tournaments under different patches or were invited. But in a tournament like GSL yeah ro16 is better.
Yeah, any tournaments with invites or months old qualifiers make no sense in judging balance
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On March 16 2014 07:38 Sissors wrote:
If you want to judge balance by race representation you should imo look at RO16, and even RO32 (in an invitational RO32 generally isn't useful, but in something like Code-S, where they have to win qualifiers or finish high in the previous season it is useful). Anything smaller than that and your sample size is way too small.
Gsl
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United States23455 Posts
On March 16 2014 07:42 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:41 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:40 sharkie wrote:On March 16 2014 07:28 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:26 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:25 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:24 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:21 scypio wrote:On March 16 2014 07:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:18 scypio wrote:Fun fact: if you take a look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments and look for four worst-balanced consecutive tournaments 2014 will simply rise and shine, with 7/8 protoss in finals of IEM Season VIII - World Championship, IEM Season VIII - Cologne ,ASUS ROG Winter 2014 and IEM Season VIII - Sao Paulo. It has never been this bad. We had 6/8 zergs at the fall of 2012, with Life and Leenock (MLG Fall Championship), Sniper and HyuN (GSL Season 5), Nerchio and Bly (Dreamhack Open Bucharest) split by Mana and ForGG (ESWC 2012). Terran reached similiar level of OP in 2010 (starting with DreamHack Winter 2010), and July 2011 (starting with 2011 MLG Anaheim) with 6/8 players in four finals. It has never been as bad. Not even in the darkest days of WoL. You should take more than race distribution at the finals for consideration. I wanted to make a post about racial distribution at the finals Usually the balance is judged by Ro16-Ro8 racial distribution. This just isn't true. Eh, why? Judging balance from the Ro16 is (normally) not helpful. In any given tournament there are bound to be 16 players who are strictly better than the rest. For example, if at a Dreamhack which has multiple group stages there ended up being 16 protoss in the ro16 but those 16 were all the Koreans does that reflect on balance? Or if the same thing happened and there was an even racial distribution but once again with all the Koreans getting through would that really reflect if there were issues or not? judging by ro16 makes way more sense than finals 2 out of those 7 protoss is herO, maybe herO is just really really good? And so many series in this tournament went 3-2, how can anyone cry balance... Judging by Ro16 in this tournament makes no sense because the players qualified months ago through tournaments under different patches or were invited. But in a tournament like GSL yeah ro16 is better. Yeah, any tournaments with invites or months old qualifiers make no sense in judging balance
To your point I am not one of the people trying to use the fact that herO and sOs are in the finals to cry imba.
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On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes.
It has been said countless times - fixing balance in MOBAS is thousand times easier than in strategies with completely different races.
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On March 16 2014 06:41 bo1b wrote:
If I think about it, life throwing 3 games is what's most sad about this tournament.
Yea... if he didn't throw those games, peoples would complain about canon rush and void ray instead of complaining about blink all-in. 
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United States23455 Posts
On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
My whole life is starcraft.... My first love for video games was BW.
It's sad that this is the end. When CS GO has over 100 k viewers and league has over 300k viewers... and SC 2 gets 50?
When protoss' can go blink all ins and get scouted early and still win... somethings wrong. It's equivalent to scouting 2 guys in a brush in League, and still die 2 on 3. Please nerf the blink c/d or research time. THe mothership core vision radius didn't do anything.
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes.
Fixing broken things in League of Legends is much easier. Conceivably they can nerf something that is broken until it is unplayable because players can play other champions. If you nerf a race in SC2 until it is unplayable you have tons of pro players of that race without a career.
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On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
My whole life is starcraft.... My first love for video games was BW.
It's sad that this is the end. When CS GO has over 100 k viewers and league has over 300k viewers... and SC 2 gets 50?
When protoss' can go blink all ins and get scouted early and still win... somethings wrong. It's equivalent to scouting 2 guys in a brush in League, and still die 2 on 3. Please nerf the blink c/d or research time. THe mothership core vision radius didn't do anything.
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes.
I think that the maps are the big issue, of course there are other problems with Protoss, but the maps are just ridiculous, like more than 50% of the map pool favors blink builds. There are so many places to blink that defending against it takes so much effort.
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On March 16 2014 07:46 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
My whole life is starcraft.... My first love for video games was BW.
It's sad that this is the end. When CS GO has over 100 k viewers and league has over 300k viewers... and SC 2 gets 50?
When protoss' can go blink all ins and get scouted early and still win... somethings wrong. It's equivalent to scouting 2 guys in a brush in League, and still die 2 on 3. Please nerf the blink c/d or research time. THe mothership core vision radius didn't do anything.
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes. Fixing broken things in League of Legends is much easier. Conceivably they can nerf something that is broken until it is unplayable because players can play other champions. If you nerf a race in SC2 until it is unplayable you have tons of pro players of that race without a career.
They did it with Terrans.
Watch how many terrans retired in past weeks / months... Taeja is the next one.
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On March 16 2014 07:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes. It has been said countless times - fixing balance in MOBAS is thousand times easier than in strategies with completely different races.
how?? by not touching it??
you fix problems by changing things, PROTOSS' HAS WON EVERYTHING FOR THE PAST 6 MONTHS, how much longer do you want this problem to exist?
Not just won, dominated.
Moba's easier to balance?? There's 120 champions that you have to balance. SC 2? 3 races with a hand ful of key units.
Quit spreading stupid lies. It's harder to balance, they just don't put in the effort like Riot does. Riot releases patches every couple weeks to a month, with more than 60 changes. SC 2 does not. You can't fix a problem if you don't try in the first place..
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On March 16 2014 07:48 yolteotl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:46 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
My whole life is starcraft.... My first love for video games was BW.
It's sad that this is the end. When CS GO has over 100 k viewers and league has over 300k viewers... and SC 2 gets 50?
When protoss' can go blink all ins and get scouted early and still win... somethings wrong. It's equivalent to scouting 2 guys in a brush in League, and still die 2 on 3. Please nerf the blink c/d or research time. THe mothership core vision radius didn't do anything.
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes. Fixing broken things in League of Legends is much easier. Conceivably they can nerf something that is broken until it is unplayable because players can play other champions. If you nerf a race in SC2 until it is unplayable you have tons of pro players of that race without a career. They did it with Terrans. Watch how many terrans retired in past weeks / months... Taeja is the next one.
I think you are overstretching the issue.
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United States23455 Posts
On March 16 2014 07:48 yolteotl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:46 Darkhorse wrote:On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
My whole life is starcraft.... My first love for video games was BW.
It's sad that this is the end. When CS GO has over 100 k viewers and league has over 300k viewers... and SC 2 gets 50?
When protoss' can go blink all ins and get scouted early and still win... somethings wrong. It's equivalent to scouting 2 guys in a brush in League, and still die 2 on 3. Please nerf the blink c/d or research time. THe mothership core vision radius didn't do anything.
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes. Fixing broken things in League of Legends is much easier. Conceivably they can nerf something that is broken until it is unplayable because players can play other champions. If you nerf a race in SC2 until it is unplayable you have tons of pro players of that race without a career. They did it with Terrans. Watch how many terrans retired in past weeks / months... Taeja is the next one.
The only terran to retire in 2014 has been HTOMario huehuehue
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Any word if they are going to do restreams for day three*(today)
Also Taeja has wanted to retire for a while
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On March 16 2014 07:46 Morphage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
My whole life is starcraft.... My first love for video games was BW.
It's sad that this is the end. When CS GO has over 100 k viewers and league has over 300k viewers... and SC 2 gets 50?
When protoss' can go blink all ins and get scouted early and still win... somethings wrong. It's equivalent to scouting 2 guys in a brush in League, and still die 2 on 3. Please nerf the blink c/d or research time. THe mothership core vision radius didn't do anything.
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes. I think that the maps are the big issue, of course there are other problems with Protoss, but the maps are just ridiculous, like more than 50% of the map pool favors blink builds. There are so many places to blink that defending against it takes so much effort.
This is a very common and very bad argument. If maps with relatively standard features regularly cause imbalance, that is not a map issue, it's a balance issue. All of WoL was basically contorting and dismembering map making to enable really shitty design to function. Because of this, map making is now severely restricted. Can't have an open natural or protoss can't expand, can't have hard to defend thirds because protoss has to all in etc etc.
The last thing this game needs is more limitations of the already stymied map making. Anyone who is actually trying to make competitive maps for this game has my sympathy and respect, it must be a fucking nightmare. It's time to call a spade a spade and just take the bull by the horns. If half the maps are imbalanced, guess what? The maps aren't the problem.
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United States23455 Posts
On March 16 2014 07:50 Malphite wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes. It has been said countless times - fixing balance in MOBAS is thousand times easier than in strategies with completely different races. how?? by not touching it?? you fix problems by changing things, PROTOSS' HAS WON EVERYTHING FOR THE PAST 6 MONTHS, how much longer do you want this problem to exist? Not just won, dominated. Moba's easier to balance?? There's 120 champions that you have to balance. SC 2? 3 races with a hand ful of key units. Quit spreading stupid lies. It's harder to balance, they just don't put in the effort like Riot does. Riot releases patches every couple weeks to a month, with more than 60 changes. SC 2 does not. You can't fix a problem if you don't try in the first place..
On March 16 2014 07:46 Darkhorse wrote:
Fixing broken things in League of Legends is much easier. Conceivably they can nerf something that is broken until it is unplayable because players can play other champions. If you nerf a race in SC2 until it is unplayable you have tons of pro players of that race without a career.
reposting this here because apparently you didn't read it. They tried a nerf last patch. They have to go incrementally because if they accidentally go too far they are really screwing over their players. If Riot screws up they can just switch champions until it is fixed, in SC2 it is not that easy.
Basically you are a Riot fanboy (I love league but I'm not a zealot like you apparently) and you do not realize how hard it is to balance SC2 compared to league. So please stop.
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On March 16 2014 07:50 Malphite wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes. It has been said countless times - fixing balance in MOBAS is thousand times easier than in strategies with completely different races. how?? by not touching it?? you fix problems by changing things, PROTOSS' HAS WON EVERYTHING FOR THE PAST 6 MONTHS, how much longer do you want this problem to exist? Not just won, dominated. Moba's easier to balance?? There's 120 champions that you have to balance. SC 2? 3 races with a hand ful of key units. Quit spreading stupid lies. It's harder to balance, they just don't put in the effort like Riot does. Riot releases patches every couple weeks to a month, with more than 60 changes. SC 2 does not. You can't fix a problem if you don't try in the first place..
TERRAN' has been winning every BW tournament for straight 2+ years several times in the past.
Not just won, dominated. And they were called bonjwas for that.
The problem with SC2 lies entirely in a different place 'cause it's obviously a different game.
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On March 16 2014 07:53 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:46 Morphage wrote:On March 16 2014 07:37 Malphite wrote:
My whole life is starcraft.... My first love for video games was BW.
It's sad that this is the end. When CS GO has over 100 k viewers and league has over 300k viewers... and SC 2 gets 50?
When protoss' can go blink all ins and get scouted early and still win... somethings wrong. It's equivalent to scouting 2 guys in a brush in League, and still die 2 on 3. Please nerf the blink c/d or research time. THe mothership core vision radius didn't do anything.
This is what i love about League. somethings broken, they fix it next patch. You never see the same champions played for a year which creates change. People don't wanna see BL/infestor every game, or nowadays, blink all ins or immortal pushes. I think that the maps are the big issue, of course there are other problems with Protoss, but the maps are just ridiculous, like more than 50% of the map pool favors blink builds. There are so many places to blink that defending against it takes so much effort. This is a very common and very bad argument. If maps with relatively standard features regularly cause imbalance, that is not a map issue, it's a balance issue. All of WoL was basically contorting and dismembering map making to enable really shitty design to function. Because of this, map making is now severely restricted. Can't have an open natural or protoss can't expand, can't have hard to defend thirds because protoss has to all in etc etc. The last thing this game needs is more limitations of the already stymied map making. Anyone who is actually trying to make competitive maps for this game has my sympathy and respect, it must be a fucking nightmare. It's time to call a spade a spade and just take the bull by the horns. If half the maps are imbalanced, guess what? The maps aren't the problem.
Or you change the standard.
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EPT
