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i wonder when terrans just start 11/11 proxyraxing every game against P to bring it over with quickly and get a few lucky wins on the way.
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On February 23 2014 23:04 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:00 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 22:56 Pangpootata wrote:On February 23 2014 22:54 Aeromi wrote:
Maru misread, thought it was a blink allin, and was on the defensive. At one point in the game he had 18 marines vs 1 stalker 1 sentry and 1 msc from Zest in army size. When he realised Zest had a third and went scv allin, it was too late as Zest's gateway explosion just started. That being said, it was still quite close. That is the problem. Zest can actually get away with having 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 oracle and 1 MSC vs 18 marines. Even if Maru goes across the map, Zest can hold. P have all scouting info while denying map control and scouting from T. The early game is just very P favored atm. No, Maru could have won if he attacked earlier before the gateway explosion completed. The game was actually very close, even with Maru's late realisation. That being said, it is true that P has much more good aggressive options that T has to be wary of than the other way currently.
We can't look from the position of the viewer which a lot of people here tend to do. Of course WE knew there was a timing possible. We see the entire map. But from Maru's position, the only way to find out is keep scanning for the third. And if you keep having to scan, you don't have enough army to punish.
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KTooooooos!
Checked the score at the beginning, saw Flash/Baby lost, quitted because i thought it was over.
Checked again 1 hour later,yay KT!
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On February 23 2014 23:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:04 TheDwf wrote:On February 23 2014 23:03 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 23:01 Nebuchad wrote:On February 23 2014 22:57 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:56 VmY wrote:On February 23 2014 22:55 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 23 2014 22:54 Ammanas wrote:
I mean, nexus cannon or not, this was probably the first time I saw such an attack held without aoe... Pretty sick defense by Zest. Yeah, people overlooking this so much lol. Nobody is denying that Zest is an amazing player and played that almost perfectly. Just so depressing to see game after game after game of 1 side winning. I beg to differ. At least half the posts are whining about Protoss OP or whatever instead of Zest actually playing incredibly well Well it works both ways. I get really annoyed when amazing players are overlooked because of their race, but just because the players are amazing doesn't mean there's no balance discussion to be had either. That being said, I wouldn't put this match in the imba column. Yeah, especially since he held the SCV pull without storm....which normally is impossible lol It's not impossible at all... He had a 2k hit points Cannon and Maru was nowhere close to the critical mass beyond which bio demolishes Protoss compositions lacking AoE. Do you realize how little photon overcharge actually matters at that point?
First, the emphasis was on "2k hit points". The Nexus tanked a lot of damage that would have otherwise been dealt on units. And second, no, the damage of the Nexus does matter a lot. I'm fairly sure the Nexus had like 10 kills at the end of the fight. I have played a lot games running into the scenario in which I have a chance to win with some Medivac push, but Protoss is finally able to hold; upon watching the replay, I click on the Nexus at the end of the fight and it has like 10-12 kills. Which pretty much means it held the push on its own.
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On February 23 2014 23:06 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 23 2014 22:58 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 22:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On February 23 2014 22:52 shadymmj wrote:
i just don't agree with the state of the game when an all-in becomes, according to some people, the only option. boring. Thats the reason why the amount of balance whining shot through the roof the last 2 months. The reason that he had to all in was because he did not see the third until it was way to late for him to play standard himself. If he scouted that then he can either all in much earlier before the third nexus pays off and probably win or take his own third and the game goes on. Maru's decision to all in was predicated by his lack of scouting nothing else. He just got three SCVs sniped when he tried to leave the base to scout. The first one saw a Stalker and a Sentrie moving towards his base so he threw down an additional bunker. The second got instand sniped by an oracle and the third one got sniped halfway across them map. Not easy scouting, really - unless randomly scanning. If you are not sure what your opponent is doing scan is the best option. So many times Terrans lose because they don't know what's happening but they don't scan to see. Yes it is true that a scan can fail to see what is needed but its a better option than hoping.
Maru did scan the main once. Scanning too many times means you don't have enough marines if the blink all-in does come. Funny you say scan is better than hoping. Because scanning is exactly that, hoping.
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The whole discussion that Maru should scan more is quite hilarious.
When Protoss figures the Blink-All in from 2 bases out the response was for month "Ohh, he missplaced a bunker by a few pixels".
When Terran scans, sees standard play and get behind in economy they get told they "have mules" and when Terran mules they are greedy and "should scan more".
Its not an easy time, making the right desicions as a Terran without being questioned by a whole Liquid-thread, I tell you that 
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On February 23 2014 23:07 ROOTiaguz wrote:
For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough.
I feel like this is the underlying issue behind it all. With all the freedoms P has now, while great for people that like electrifying games with variance, it's really hard for opponents when Zealots are so well made. They tank a lot, with charge they at least get a hit off and they protect things so well.. The iron wall exists so the other protoss units can have a field day..
Oh well. VODs will be added to the OP as they're uploaded.
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On February 23 2014 23:06 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 23 2014 22:58 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 22:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On February 23 2014 22:52 shadymmj wrote:
i just don't agree with the state of the game when an all-in becomes, according to some people, the only option. boring. Thats the reason why the amount of balance whining shot through the roof the last 2 months. The reason that he had to all in was because he did not see the third until it was way to late for him to play standard himself. If he scouted that then he can either all in much earlier before the third nexus pays off and probably win or take his own third and the game goes on. Maru's decision to all in was predicated by his lack of scouting nothing else. He just got three SCVs sniped when he tried to leave the base to scout. The first one saw a Stalker and a Sentrie moving towards his base so he threw down an additional bunker. The second got instand sniped by an oracle and the third one got sniped halfway across them map. Not easy scouting, really - unless randomly scanning. If you are not sure what your opponent is doing scan is the best option. So many times Terrans lose because they don't know what's happening but they don't scan to see. Yes it is true that a scan can fail to see what is needed but its a better option than hoping.
Scanning what...
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~ All your Jin belongs to KT! ~
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On February 23 2014 23:10 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:07 ROOTiaguz wrote:
For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough. I feel like this is the underlying issue behind it all. With all the freedoms P has now, while great for people that like electrifying games with variance, it's really hard for opponents when Zealots are so well made. They tank a lot, with charge they at least get a hit off and they protect things so well.. The iron wall exists so the other protoss units can have a field day.. Oh well. VODs will be added to the OP as they're uploaded.
Problem there is that Zealots are very weak in the later portions of the game once upgrades and stim kicks in and there's a higher army supply on the field.
The problem isn't with the Protoss units, it's with their array of offensive and defensive options and that all comes back to the Mothership Core. It is the problem. The oracle speed and Blink are able to be dealt with, the kind of flexibility the MSC provides Protoss in the early game is a much bigger issue.
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I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas.
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Those who are bashing maru for is 'failed all in' don't understand that he was forced into that situation. If you watch the game again, you'll see there was absolutely no other way he could have played, apart from scanning the third. But having scanned the main already once, using anymore scans against aggressive toss is nigh on impossible to hold (just watch innovations stream, when I see him lose to toss all-ins when he recognizes it early and prepares perfectly for it, or barely holds on, it's just ridiculous).
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On February 23 2014 23:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:06 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 23:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 23 2014 22:58 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 22:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On February 23 2014 22:52 shadymmj wrote:
i just don't agree with the state of the game when an all-in becomes, according to some people, the only option. boring. Thats the reason why the amount of balance whining shot through the roof the last 2 months. The reason that he had to all in was because he did not see the third until it was way to late for him to play standard himself. If he scouted that then he can either all in much earlier before the third nexus pays off and probably win or take his own third and the game goes on. Maru's decision to all in was predicated by his lack of scouting nothing else. He just got three SCVs sniped when he tried to leave the base to scout. The first one saw a Stalker and a Sentrie moving towards his base so he threw down an additional bunker. The second got instand sniped by an oracle and the third one got sniped halfway across them map. Not easy scouting, really - unless randomly scanning. If you are not sure what your opponent is doing scan is the best option. So many times Terrans lose because they don't know what's happening but they don't scan to see. Yes it is true that a scan can fail to see what is needed but its a better option than hoping. Maru did scan the main once. Scanning too many times means you don't have enough marines if the blink all-in does come. Funny you say scan is better than hoping. Because scanning is exactly that, hoping.
Maru scanned the main and saw nothing and his three attempts at scouting were actively shut down, clearly something was going on that zest did not want him to see and that should have set off alarm bells in Maru's head making finding out what is happening his number one priority. He did not do that and as a result he was put in an awkward position. You can blame it on balance but Maru's game sense failed him in this match.
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On February 23 2014 23:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:10 Wintex wrote:On February 23 2014 23:07 ROOTiaguz wrote:
For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough. I feel like this is the underlying issue behind it all. With all the freedoms P has now, while great for people that like electrifying games with variance, it's really hard for opponents when Zealots are so well made. They tank a lot, with charge they at least get a hit off and they protect things so well.. The iron wall exists so the other protoss units can have a field day.. Oh well. VODs will be added to the OP as they're uploaded. Problem there is that Zealots are very weak in the later portions of the game once upgrades and stim kicks in and there's a higher army supply on the field. The problem isn't with the Protoss units, it's with their array of offensive and defensive options and that all comes back to the Mothership Core. It is the problem. The oracle speed and Blink are able to be dealt with, the kind of flexibility the MSC provides Protoss in the early game is a much bigger issue.
Yes, Protoss is known for having very weak and fragile late-game armies that can disappear in 2-3 seconds, especially in PvT. We've all seen that happen again and again and again.
ROTFL :D
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On February 23 2014 23:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:10 Wintex wrote:On February 23 2014 23:07 ROOTiaguz wrote:
For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough. I feel like this is the underlying issue behind it all. With all the freedoms P has now, while great for people that like electrifying games with variance, it's really hard for opponents when Zealots are so well made. They tank a lot, with charge they at least get a hit off and they protect things so well.. The iron wall exists so the other protoss units can have a field day.. Oh well. VODs will be added to the OP as they're uploaded. Problem there is that Zealots are very weak in the later portions of the game once upgrades and stim kicks in and there's a higher army supply on the field. The problem isn't with the Protoss units, it's with their array of offensive and defensive options and that all comes back to the Mothership Core. It is the problem. The oracle speed and Blink are able to be dealt with, the kind of flexibility the MSC provides Protoss in the early game is a much bigger issue.
Zealots are only bad vs marine heavy comps, marauders take so long to kill zealots. And with marine heavy comps, HTs wreck them unless you can get all the HTs with EMP.
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On February 23 2014 23:17 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:10 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:06 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 23:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 23 2014 22:58 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 22:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On February 23 2014 22:52 shadymmj wrote:
i just don't agree with the state of the game when an all-in becomes, according to some people, the only option. boring. Thats the reason why the amount of balance whining shot through the roof the last 2 months. The reason that he had to all in was because he did not see the third until it was way to late for him to play standard himself. If he scouted that then he can either all in much earlier before the third nexus pays off and probably win or take his own third and the game goes on. Maru's decision to all in was predicated by his lack of scouting nothing else. He just got three SCVs sniped when he tried to leave the base to scout. The first one saw a Stalker and a Sentrie moving towards his base so he threw down an additional bunker. The second got instand sniped by an oracle and the third one got sniped halfway across them map. Not easy scouting, really - unless randomly scanning. If you are not sure what your opponent is doing scan is the best option. So many times Terrans lose because they don't know what's happening but they don't scan to see. Yes it is true that a scan can fail to see what is needed but its a better option than hoping. Maru did scan the main once. Scanning too many times means you don't have enough marines if the blink all-in does come. Funny you say scan is better than hoping. Because scanning is exactly that, hoping. Maru scanned the main and saw nothing and his three attempts at scouting were actively shut down, clearly something was going on that zest did not want him to see and that should have set off alarm bells in Maru's head making finding out what is happening his number one priority. He did not do that and as a result he was put in an awkward position. You can blame it on balance but Maru's game sense failed him in this match.
? Scanning once, sending 3 SCVs, exactly what more do you want him to do?
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On February 23 2014 23:16 vthree wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to decide what they want the oracle to be. Is it a harass unit, a scouting unit, or a map control unit. Because right now, it does all of them really well. Especially vs Terran.
If we compare to the reaper, we can see a huge difference in their performance in all 3 areas.
I actually really like where the Oracle is right now.
I think once the patch goes in and we fix the other problems with the early game the Oracle will have a really nice place as a general purpose map control unit for all 3 match ups.
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On February 23 2014 23:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:10 Wintex wrote:On February 23 2014 23:07 ROOTiaguz wrote:
For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough. I feel like this is the underlying issue behind it all. With all the freedoms P has now, while great for people that like electrifying games with variance, it's really hard for opponents when Zealots are so well made. They tank a lot, with charge they at least get a hit off and they protect things so well.. The iron wall exists so the other protoss units can have a field day.. Oh well. VODs will be added to the OP as they're uploaded. Problem there is that Zealots are very weak in the later portions of the game once upgrades and stim kicks in and there's a higher army supply on the field.
Zealots are only weak if they're alone (= no AoE support) against mass bio supported by like 10+ Medivacs (or 20+ Ghosts). The rest of the time they're always fine.
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On February 23 2014 23:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:10 Wintex wrote:On February 23 2014 23:07 ROOTiaguz wrote:
For Maru to win that game he has to move out and force a cancel on the 3rd before it finishes and can be photon overcharged. This requires either an scv somewhere on the map to confirm or a marine or something. If you open reaper FE then you can use that, provided you haven't sacrificed it yet.
But that's the nature of oracle 3 nexus. Because the oracle basically pins terran to his base and the potential aggressive follow ups the protoss can do like 3 gate stalkers or blink or w/e, terran is posturing defensively waiting for his medivacs. You don't want to have to add turrets before you're gonna move out.
Maru just wasn't thinking about the possibilty of a 3rd, and by not scouting for it he missed his very thin, but present, timing window. And you're not allowed to make mistakes in tvp these days. Protoss units just aren't fragile enough. I feel like this is the underlying issue behind it all. With all the freedoms P has now, while great for people that like electrifying games with variance, it's really hard for opponents when Zealots are so well made. They tank a lot, with charge they at least get a hit off and they protect things so well.. The iron wall exists so the other protoss units can have a field day.. Oh well. VODs will be added to the OP as they're uploaded. Problem there is that Zealots are very weak in the later portions of the game once upgrades and stim kicks in and there's a higher army supply on the field. The problem isn't with the Protoss units, it's with their array of offensive and defensive options and that all comes back to the Mothership Core. It is the problem. The oracle speed and Blink are able to be dealt with, the kind of flexibility the MSC provides Protoss in the early game is a much bigger issue.
I find zealots to be the biggest nuisances late game. With warp ins and pylons and what have you, they tear down shit easily. There's a need to get many units to deal with heavily upgraded zealots due to their tankiness. You don't really see this from Zergs, because Overlord drop or nydus isn't used a lot (please blizz, make em more attractive for pro gamers) and from Terrans it will eventually be a problem for them if they lose medivacs, since they come from the starport.
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On February 23 2014 23:17 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 23:10 vthree wrote:On February 23 2014 23:06 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 23:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On February 23 2014 22:58 coloursheep wrote:On February 23 2014 22:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On February 23 2014 22:52 shadymmj wrote:
i just don't agree with the state of the game when an all-in becomes, according to some people, the only option. boring. Thats the reason why the amount of balance whining shot through the roof the last 2 months. The reason that he had to all in was because he did not see the third until it was way to late for him to play standard himself. If he scouted that then he can either all in much earlier before the third nexus pays off and probably win or take his own third and the game goes on. Maru's decision to all in was predicated by his lack of scouting nothing else. He just got three SCVs sniped when he tried to leave the base to scout. The first one saw a Stalker and a Sentrie moving towards his base so he threw down an additional bunker. The second got instand sniped by an oracle and the third one got sniped halfway across them map. Not easy scouting, really - unless randomly scanning. If you are not sure what your opponent is doing scan is the best option. So many times Terrans lose because they don't know what's happening but they don't scan to see. Yes it is true that a scan can fail to see what is needed but its a better option than hoping. Maru did scan the main once. Scanning too many times means you don't have enough marines if the blink all-in does come. Funny you say scan is better than hoping. Because scanning is exactly that, hoping. Maru scanned the main and saw nothing and his three attempts at scouting were actively shut down, clearly something was going on that zest did not want him to see and that should have set off alarm bells in Maru's head making finding out what is happening his number one priority. He did not do that and as a result he was put in an awkward position. You can blame it on balance but Maru's game sense failed him in this match.
What? He saw the tech path (oracle) with the first scan. All top players try to deny scouting with oracle if they are denied in the main and natural. Again, alarm bells did go off. But the only option is to scan because you can't move out with marines when the oracle is on the field. So you need to scan the third for expand AND the main and the Natural for tech...
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EPT
